11/20/63 Honolulu Briefing Book "In short this is going to be a circus"

[David Boylan]

Briefing book on the Vietnam War

Part 1

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=146534#relPageId=1

Part 2

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=146535#relPageId=4

 

[Ron Bulman]

That's really deep David, I skimmed through much of it.  AID involved?  The same AID that employed Ruth's dad among others?

[W. Niederhut]

      Interesting material, and, certainly, consistent with Prouty's account of the failure of the strategic hamlet ops, and the lack of popular support for the CIA-created South Vietnamese government.

[Ron Bulman]

Re skimmed, a lot slower, the first part.  Very deep pre reading for a one-day eight-hour conference, at only half of it yet!  Forrestall didn't seem impressed with McNamara.  Still several redactions.  It did say everyone out by the end of 1965, 1000 by the end of 1963.

[David Boylan]

Hey Ron,

I'm glad somebody reads this (long) stuff!

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Hey Ron,

I'm glad somebody reads this (long) stuff!

David,

    Is there a short version of how McGeorge Bundy ended up with the November 21st draft of NSAM 273?

[David Boylan]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

NSAM 273

Hi W. 

Here's some reading on the implementation of 273 - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=101#relPageId=2

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=118#relPageId=10

I haven't found the rough drafts of 273. Seems to be missing? - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=945#relPageId=653

[Karl Kinaski]

 If you go through the briefing book, the Kennedy 'Out by the end of 1965' Vietnam policy is mentioned dozens upon dozens of times . Lodge, who participated in the Honolulu Conference, was asked about this in 1978 or 1979. He said he had never heard of such a thing ('Out by the end of 1965'). Lodge also claimed in that interview that Kennedy persuaded him to take the job in Vietnam, when it was actually the other way around: Kennedy was persuaded by Rusk to send Lodge. Kennedy had someone else in mind for the job, though the name escapes me. Lodge and Conein arranged that the Diem brothers ended up in the hands of their killers. 

[Robert Morrow]

On 9/9/2024 at 9:12 PM, Karl Kinaski said:

 If you go through the briefing book, the Kennedy 'Out by the end of 1965' Vietnam policy is mentioned dozens upon dozens of times . Lodge, who participated in the Honolulu Conference, was asked about this in 1978 or 1979. He said he had never heard of such a thing ('Out by the end of 1965'). Lodge also claimed in that interview that Kennedy persuaded him to take the job in Vietnam, when it was actually the other way around: Kennedy was persuaded by Rusk to send Lodge. Kennedy had someone else in mind for the job, though the name escapes me. Lodge and Conein arranged that the Diem brothers ended up in the hands of their killers. 

Karl, what is your source that Sec. of State Dean Rusk was the one to persuade JFK to name Henry Lodge the U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam? I want that in my files. Thank you.

[Karl Kinaski]

@R. Morrow said:

Quote

 Karl, what is your source that Sec. of State Dean Rusk was the one to persuade JFK to name Henry Lodge the U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam? I want that in my files.

Quote, Arthur Schlesinger  A THOSUAND DAYS (1965)

 

Quote

Now he (Kennedy)  began to conclude that the new situation required a new ambassador. Six months before, Nolting had asked, for personal reasons, to be relieved; and, after the Buddhist outburst, the President decided (with some reluctance: like F.D.R. he hated to fire people; moreover, he like Nolting) that the time had come. I have the impression that he wanted to send next to Saigon Edmund Gullion, from whom he had first learned about Indochina a dozen years before and who had performed with such distinction in the Congo; Gullion was certainly the candidate of at least some at the White House. But Dean Rusk, in a rare moment of selfassertion, determined to make this appointment himself. He did not want Gullion, and his candidate, to the astonishment or dismay of the White House staff, turned out to be Henry Cabot Lodge.

 

Edited September 16 by Karl Kinaski

[David Andrews]

But Dean Rusk, in a rare moment of selfassertion, determined to make this appointment himself. He did not want Gullion, and his candidate, to the astonishment or dismay of the White House staff, turned out to be Henry Cabot Lodge.

Handing the colony over to its proprietor, just a bit.

[Karl Kinaski]

 BTW

There is a transcript of the conversation from the last time both men met. 38 seconds of the recording are classified for reasons unknown. There are some funny moments. For example, when JFK asks Lodge if Madame Nhu is a lesbian. Nowhere does JFK say the words: 'I want to persuade you to go to Vietnam as my ambassador.'  which Lodge claimed Kennedy said to him during this conversation. It was Rusk who persuaded the reluctant Kennedy to send Lodge. 

Her is the link