Greg Doudna Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) On the subject of impersonations of Oswald, here is a proposed analysis, comment and criticism welcome. Of necessity this is an interpretation, an attempt to make coherent sense of a range of data. The focus is limited to cases in Dallas. The proposal is that there are six identifiable authentic cases of impersonation of Oswald in Dallas; that these impersonations began in Dallas not earlier than late summer 1963; that it was malevolent with intent to frame Oswald in a planned assassination attempt on President Kennedy when he visited Dallas; that the impersonations were carried out serially by only a single person; that that person may be identified as Curtis Craford; and that Curtis Craford was not doing those on his own but as an agent for those planning the assassination. Six genuine cases of Oswald impersonation Carousel Club, Oct 4. This is from Jarnagin. This, the first, is a little unusual because it was not with intent to deceive anyone. The only audience was Ruby, the person was Craford, and Ruby knew Craford. However Craford went into Oswald mode in parts of their discussion, and Ruby knew it was Oswald mode, at later times was heard to call Craford "Ozzie". I spent a lot of time considering whether this could be Oswald on the first night he returned from Mexico City, Thu Oct 3, with Jarnagin mistaken on the date by a day, and Oswald maybe the equivalent of wearing a wire and conducting a sting, but in the end decided that did not seem plausible for the kind of thing Oswald would do. And certain details, such as Ruby's "haven't seen you for a couple of weeks, where have you been?", the terrifying scary look Jarnagin told when the man looked at him, and the basic aggressiveness of talking terms for a criminal arrangement sound more like Craford. That Craford was already well-known and familiar in the Carousel Club and to Ruby from June-July is established to my satisfaction from the Odell Estes story (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29006-decipherment-of-the-james-odell-estes-story-carousel-club-july-aug-1963/page/7/). Laura Kittrell, Texas Employment Commission. This is complicated. There are clear indications of both Oswald and Craford being reflected in Kittrell's story of what she originally thought was a single Oswald, later came to think was two persons, and finally upon seeing a photo of Craford positively identified Craford as the second one, an Oswald imposter. Tony Krome has argued that it was all Craford pretending to be Oswald all the way through with Kittrell, no Oswald there. The similarity in the aptitude test scores to Oswald says to me Kittrell was in contact with Oswald such that it was not all Craford, only part Craford in Kittrell's memories. Whether Kittrell confused the two by accident or Craford intended it as impersonation is the question. Kittrell herself interpreted Craford as impersonating Oswald for the purpose of defrauding the unemployment compensation system. How the impersonation worked requires further analysis in the details, but two key things stand out: the sudden anger and look of Craford which Kittrell said was terrifying to her core (compare Jarnagin's account of Craford's scary look), and the statement with that anger, "Kennedy is going to hear about this!" which Kittrell assumed to be a threat to write a letter of complaint and get her in trouble. Neither of those sound like Oswald, but do sound incriminating of Oswald in the assassination in retrospect, as does the mention to Kittrell that he would like to make his full-time living with guns, and that he wanted an office job in a downtown tall building. Johnnie Walker at a party in Grand Prairie, Oct 24. This was someone claiming to be and representing himself to be Oswald who definitely was not Oswald. In light of the other impersonations which can be identified as Craford, this one is sensible as Craford too. These features agree with Craford as the identity: tattoo on arm (cp. tattoo witnessed on arm of Craford at the Contract Electronics Store); she thought he was younger than a photo of Oswald (Craford was 22 to Oswald's 24); unsavory gangland overtones of the party's people; reference to he made "good coffee" and Craford made and served coffee to people at the Carousel Club. This impersonation, alone among the ones listed, has no incrimination of Oswald and appears to have no point at all, Craford practicing and bullshitting in chatting with the woman, drawing on his knowledge of a few things about Oswald. Downtown Lincoln Mercury, Nov 2. Two things weigh against this having been Oswald. The first is the recklessness of the driving at speed assumes an experienced confident driver which Oswald was not, and salesman Bogard told the Warren Commission the man knew how to drive confidently. The second is height. All witnesses had the man a little shorter than Oswald and one witness who was 5'8-1/2" remembered looking down on the man shorter than him. Oswald was 5'9", whereas Craford was around 5'7". Craford knew how to drive. This impersonation had Oswald coming into money in three weeks, the time of the planned assassination attempt, so was a sinister impersonation. Applications to high-rise buildings with sniper opportunity along the parade route. I have lumped three such cases as one here because they are all of a kind: either Oswald or an impersonator pretending to be Oswald inquired of employment at the Statler-Hilton Hotel; the Adolphus Hotel; and the Allright Parking Garage. In each of the cases it was an inquiry but seemed without followthrough. In one of the cases a point was remembered having been made about the view from high in the building. Each of these cases from high enough in the building would have been potential sniper opportunities for the presidential parade. These jobs are not the kind of jobs that Oswald expressed interest in to Marina. This is interpreted as impersonation and sinister, to be recalled as Oswald attempting to find sniper opportunity employment. Craford as the impersonator is plausible and interpreted as the same identity as the other impersonations. Ralph Yates hitchhiker, Nov 21. That this was a claim to an Oswald identification is from the hitchhiker is picked up in Oak Cliff, where Oswald lived, to be dropped off in front of the TSBD in Dealey Plaza, Oswald's workplace, with a rifle-sized package of "curtains". This impersonation was very sinister, with discussion of the plausibility of shooting the president from a tall window, and the package, designed to create a random witness which would come forward after the assassination attempt the next day and incriminate Oswald. There is actually one more which could possibly be added, the "Oswald" told by James Markham in Oak Cliff. The Gavan McMahon article in the late 2023 issue of Garrison magazine from interviewing the Helen Markham daughter-in-law says both Markham sons always said the story was true, that they hung around with Oswald known as "Ozzie", the same Oswald they said shot Tippit. Of course any person they hung around with was not Oswald, but both brothers told her and believed it was Oswald, seemingly suggesting there was some person who claimed to them to be Oswald. If so, this person was both an impersonator of Oswald and the killer of Tippit. If this was a seventh case of impersonation done by the same person as the others, it would be Craford. Cases of alleged impersonations which were not impersonations Sports Drome Rifle Range. The target shooter seen there on several occasions who looked like Oswald never claimed to be Oswald so was not impersonating. He was not Oswald. On independent analysis it is clear he was gunsmith and gun dealer John Thomas Masen, who looked like Oswald, and was mistaken at the Rifle Range for Oswald. Driver of a red car acting suspiciously bearing Carl Mather's licence plates in Oak Cliff the day of the assassination. Obviously not Oswald (Oswald was under arrest at the time), and no claim to be Oswald so not an impersonation. This was a mistaken identification. Independent analysis shows that person was Vaganov. Shasteen barber shop customer. There are quite a number of reasons why this is not sensible as Oswald. Nor did this customer ever claim to be Oswald, so not an impersonation. This was a mistaken identification. Independent analysis shows this was Masen, who looked like Oswald, and who spent time in Irving meeting with an undercover police contact. Cases of mistaken identifications Roger Craig running man sighting. Not Oswald because Oswald is identified elsewhere, and the Roger Craig identification was at a distance at which identification is unreliable, and it was unconfirmed. True identity unknown. Brennan sixth floor TSBD shooter. Not Oswald because Oswald was elsewhere (photographed front steps outside the first floor), and the identification was at a distance at which identification is unreliable, and it was unconfirmed by any other witness. True identity unknown. Contract Electronics store (with Ruby). Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity Craford. Mary Lawrence at the Lucas B & B Restaurant (with Ruby the night before the assassination). Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity Craford. Tippit crime scene witnesses, man wearing white or light-colored shirt who killed Tippit. Not Oswald (*contested). Mistaken identification (*contested). True identity: Craford(?) (*contested) A man target shooting a rifle 1/4 mile from the TSBD two days before the assassination. Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity Masen. Carousel Club incident with Bill DeMarr. Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity: Masen(?). Cases which have been mistakenly alleged to be impersonations which in fact were Oswald Furniture Mart. Nov 11, 1963. Lee, Marina, June, and newborn baby Rachel. Irving Sport Shop. Nov 11, 1963. Oswald had a damaged scope base repaired and the scope reinstalled on the rifle by Dial Ryder. Sylvia Odio. Sept 25, 1963. Oswald with two Cuban men at Sylvia Odio's door. These lists are not exhaustive but cover the major ones. My classifications. Analysis/provisional conclusions concerning the six identified cases of impersonations of Oswald (Dallas, Sept-Nov 1963) A single, serial impersonator in all of the genuine cases. There is no serious evidence or reason to suppose any additional impersonator than the one The impersonator in all of the genuine cases of impersonation can be identified as Curtis Craford The impersonations were not full-time but only done for the incident The impersonations were not sophisticated but basic and often clumsy In all but one instance the impersonations may be interpreted in retrospect as sinister in advance for the purpose of wrongly incriminating Oswald in the assassination There is no information that the impersonator personally met Oswald, though it cannot absolutely be excluded It can be ruled out that the impersonator, Craford, did this on his own (as implausible) The impersonations were sinister, reflecting an advance plot or planning to attempt the assassination of the president, and the impersonations were intended to be remembered and reported by witnesses after the assassination as incriminating of Oswald. The impersonations were undertaken in the service of the assassination plot. The impersonations are evidence of advance intent to frame Oswald in the assassination The question of why the impersonator, Craford, did this serial repeated nature of activity, and for whom, is uncertain but can be conjectured. Why? For pay. For whom? Craford's and Ruby's mob-circle contacts. The Odell Estes story (see link above) identifies Craford as in contact in June-July 1963 in Dallas with mob types in Marcello's circles. Why was Oswald singled out to be framed? One possibility is the explanation Trafficante gave, he picked people he knew worked covertly for the government because that impedes investigation by the government since it involves their own people. Also, that Oswald was personally known in New Orleans to Marcello contacts could have been a factor. And finally, he was made to order for the purpose: a commie. Edited October 24 by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Schwartz Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 This is a relevant article that relates to this subject...https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Oswald_Legend.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: On the subject of impersonations of Oswald, here is a proposed analysis, comment and criticism welcome. Of necessity this is an interpretation, an attempt to make coherent sense of a range of data. The focus is limited to cases in Dallas. The proposal is that there are six identifiable authentic cases of impersonation of Oswald in Dallas; that these impersonations began in Dallas not earlier than late summer 1963; that it was malevolent with intent to frame Oswald in a planned assassination attempt on President Kennedy when he visited Dallas; that the impersonations were carried out serially by only a single person; that that person may be identified as Curtis Craford; and that Curtis Craford was not doing those on his own but as an agent for those planning the assassination. Six genuine cases of Oswald impersonation Carousel Club, Oct 4. This is from Jarnagin. This, the first, is a little unusual because it was not with intent to deceive anyone. The only audience was Ruby, the person was Craford, and Ruby knew Craford. However Craford went into Oswald mode in parts of their discussion, and Ruby knew it was Oswald mode, at later times was heard to call Craford "Ozzie". I spent a lot of time considering whether this could be Oswald on the first night he returned from Mexico City, Thu Oct 3, with Jarnagin mistaken on the date by a day, and Oswald maybe the equivalent of wearing a wire and conducting a sting, but in the end decided that did not seem plausible for the kind of thing Oswald would do. And certain details, such as Ruby's "haven't seen you for a couple of weeks, where have you been?", the terrifying scary look Jarnagin told when the man looked at him, and the basic aggressiveness of talking terms for a criminal arrangement sound more like Craford. That Craford was already well-known and familiar in the Carousel Club and to Ruby from June-July is established to my satisfaction from the Odell Estes story (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29006-decipherment-of-the-james-odell-estes-story-carousel-club-july-aug-1963/page/7/). Laura Kittrell, Texas Employment Commission. This is complicated. There are clear indications of both Oswald and Craford being reflected in Kittrell's story of what she originally thought was a single Oswald, later came to think was two persons, and finally upon seeing a photo of Craford positively identified Craford as the second one, an Oswald imposter. Tony Krome has argued that it was all Craford pretending to be Oswald all the way through with Kittrell, no Oswald there. The similarity in the aptitude test scores to Oswald says to me Kittrell was in contact with Oswald such that it was not all Craford, only part Craford in Kittrell's memories. Whether Kittrell confused the two by accident or Craford intended it as impersonation is the question. Kittrell herself interpreted Craford as impersonating Oswald for the purpose of defrauding the unemployment compensation system. How the impersonation worked requires further analysis in the details, but two key things stand out: the sudden anger and look of Craford which Kittrell said was terrifying to her core (compare Jarnagin's account of Craford's scary look), and the statement with that anger, "Kennedy is going to hear about this!" which Kittrell assumed to be a threat to write a letter of complaint and get her in trouble. Neither of those sound like Oswald, but do sound incriminating of Oswald in the assassination in retrospect, as does the mention to Kittrell that he would like to make his full-time living with guns, and that he wanted an office job in a downtown tall building. Johnnie Walker at a party in Grand Prairie, Oct 24. This was someone claiming to be and representing himself to be Oswald who definitely was not Oswald. In light of the other impersonations which can be identified as Craford, this one is sensible as Craford too. These features agree with Craford as the identity: tattoo on arm (cp. tattoo witnessed on arm of Craford at the Contract Electronics Store); she thought he was younger than a photo of Oswald (Craford was 22 to Oswald's 24); unsavory gangland overtones of the party's people; reference to he made "good coffee" and Craford made and served coffee to people at the Carousel Club. This impersonation, alone among the ones listed, has no incrimination of Oswald and appears to have no point at all, Craford practicing and bullshitting in chatting with the woman, drawing on his knowledge of a few things about Oswald. Downtown Lincoln Mercury, Nov 2. Two things weigh against this having been Oswald. The first is the recklessness of the driving at speed assumes an experienced confident driver which Oswald was not, and salesman Bogard told the Warren Commission the man knew how to drive confidently. The second is height. All witnesses had the man a little shorter than Oswald and one witness who was 5'8-1/2" remembered looking down on the man shorter than him. Oswald was 5'9", whereas Craford was around 5'7". Craford knew how to drive. This impersonation had Oswald coming into money in three weeks, the time of the planned assassination attempt, so was a sinister impersonation. Applications to high-rise buildings with sniper opportunity along the parade route. I have lumped three such cases as one here because they are all of a kind: either Oswald or an impersonator pretending to be Oswald inquired of employment at the Statler-Hilton Hotel; the Adolphus Hotel; and the Allright Parking Garage. In each of the cases it was an inquiry but seemed without followthrough. In one of the cases a point was remembered having been made about the view from high in the building. Each of these cases from high enough in the building would have been potential sniper opportunities for the presidential parade. These jobs are not the kind of jobs that Oswald expressed interest in to Marina. This is interpreted as impersonation and sinister, to be recalled as Oswald attempting to find sniper opportunity employment. Craford as the impersonator is plausible and interpreted as the same identity as the other impersonations. Ralph Yates hitchhiker, Nov 21. That this was a claim to an Oswald identification is from the hitchhiker is picked up in Oak Cliff, where Oswald lived, to be dropped off in front of the TSBD in Dealey Plaza, Oswald's workplace, with a rifle-sized package of "curtains". This impersonation was very sinister, with discussion of the plausibility of shooting the president from a tall window, and the package, designed to create a random witness which would come forward after the assassination attempt the next day and incriminate Oswald. There is actually one more which could possibly be added, the "Oswald" told by James Markham in Oak Cliff. The Gavan McMahon article in the late 2023 issue of Garrison magazine from interviewing the Helen Markham daughter-in-law says both Markham sons always said the story was true, that they hung around with Oswald known as "Ozzie", the same Oswald they said shot Tippit. Of course any person they hung around with was not Oswald, but both brothers told her and believed it was Oswald, seemingly suggesting there was some person who claimed to them to be Oswald. If so, this person was both an impersonator of Oswald and the killer of Tippit. If this was a seventh case of impersonation done by the same person as the others, it would be Craford. Cases of alleged impersonations which were not impersonations Sports Drome Rifle Range. The target shooter seen there on several occasions who looked like Oswald never claimed to be Oswald so was not impersonating. He was not Oswald. On independent analysis it is clear he was gunsmith and gun dealer John Thomas Masen, who looked like Oswald, and was mistaken at the Rifle Range for Oswald. Driver of a red car acting suspiciously bearing Carl Mather's licence plates in Oak Cliff the day of the assassination. Obviously not Oswald (Oswald was under arrest at the time), and no claim to be Oswald so not an impersonation. This was a mistaken identification. Independent analysis shows that person was Vaganov. Shasteen barber shop customer. There are quite a number of reasons why this is not sensible as Oswald. Nor did this customer ever claim to be Oswald, so not an impersonation. This was a mistaken identification. Independent analysis shows this was Masen, who looked like Oswald, and who spent time in Irving meeting with an undercover police contact. Cases of mistaken identifications Roger Craig running man sighting. Not Oswald because Oswald is identified elsewhere, and the Roger Craig identification was at a distance at which identification is unreliable, and it was unconfirmed. True identity unknown. Brennan sixth floor TSBD shooter. Not Oswald because Oswald was elsewhere (photographed front steps outside the first floor), and the identification was at a distance at which identification is unreliable, and it was unconfirmed by any other witness. True identity unknown. Contract Electronics store (with Ruby). Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity Craford. Mary Lawrence at the Lucas B & B Restaurant (with Ruby the night before the assassination). Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity Craford. Tippit crime scene witnesses, man wearing white or light-colored shirt who killed Tippit. Not Oswald (*contested). Mistaken identification (*contested). True identity: Craford(?) (*contested) A man target shooting a rifle 1/4 mile from the TSBD two days before the assassination. Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity Masen. Carousel Club incident with Bill DeMarr. Not Oswald. Mistaken identification. True identity: Masen(?). Cases which have been mistakenly alleged to be impersonations which in fact were Oswald Furniture Mart. Nov 11, 1963. Lee, Marina, June, and newborn baby Rachel. Irving Sport Shop. Nov 11, 1963. Oswald had a damaged scope base repaired and the scope reinstalled on the rifle by Dial Ryder. Sylvia Odio. Sept 25, 1963. Oswald with two Cuban men at Sylvia Odio's door. These lists are not exhaustive but cover the major ones. My classifications. Analysis/provisional conclusions concerning the six identified cases of impersonations of Oswald (Dallas, Sept-Nov 1963) A single, serial impersonator in all of the genuine cases. There is no serious evidence or reason to suppose any additional impersonator than the one The impersonator in all of the genuine cases of impersonation can be identified as Curtis Craford The impersonations were not full-time but only done for the incident The impersonations were not sophisticated but basic and often clumsy In all but one instance the impersonations may be interpreted in retrospect as sinister in advance for the purpose of wrongly incriminating Oswald in the assassination There is no information that the impersonator personally met Oswald, though it cannot absolutely be excluded It can be ruled out that the impersonator, Craford, did this on his own (as implausible) The impersonations were sinister, reflecting an advance plot or planning to attempt the assassination of the president, and the impersonations were intended to be remembered and reported by witnesses after the assassination as incriminating of Oswald. The impersonations were undertaken in the service of the assassination plot. The impersonations are evidence of advance intent to frame Oswald in the assassination The question of why the impersonator, Craford, did this serial repeated nature of activity, and for whom, is uncertain but can be conjectured. Why? For pay. For whom? Craford's and Ruby's mob-circle contacts. The Odell Estes story (see link above) identifies Craford as in contact in June-July 1963 in Dallas with mob types in Marcello's circles. Why was Oswald singled out to be framed? One possibility is the explanation Trafficante gave, he picked people he knew worked covertly for the government because that impedes investigation by the government since it involves their own people. Also, that Oswald was personally known in New Orleans to Marcello contacts could have been a factor. And finally, he was made to order for the purpose: a commie. Too many sincere and credible witness under oath testimony given stories to ignore for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: Driver of a red car acting suspiciously bearing Carl Mather's licence plates in Oak Cliff the day of the assassination. Obviously not Oswald (Oswald was under arrest at the time), and no claim to be Oswald so not an impersonation. This was a mistaken identification. Independent analysis shows that person was Vaganov. Citation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted October 24 Author Share Posted October 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said: Citation? If you mean for a red car seen by mechanic White with license plate number traced to Carl Mather, that is standard information from FBI interviews and Wes Wise. If you mean the Vaganov identification for the red car and it’s driver, that has no citation because it is what I think (think I know, better put), but have not written out that argument yet. In any case, it wasn’t Oswald and it wasn’t an impersonation, is all that matters for present argument. Edited October 24 by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 54 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said: If you mean the Vaganov identification for the red car and it’s driver, that has no citation because it is what I think (think I know, better put), but have not written out that argument yet. In any case, it wasn’t Oswald and it wasn’t an impersonation, is all that matters for present argument. One conjecture rests on another. If you can put Vaganov into the red Ford (based on evidence) you'll be performing a service. However, he did not drive a Falcon. You cannot rule out the presence of a second Oswald at the Texas Theater or the general area in the immediate aftermath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted October 24 Author Share Posted October 24 24 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said: You cannot rule out the presence of a second Oswald at the Texas Theater or the general area in the immediate aftermath. Could you define what you mean by “second Oswald”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: Could you define what you mean by “second Oswald”? First please explain why "In any case, it wasn’t Oswald and it wasn’t an impersonation" sitting in the red Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted October 25 Author Share Posted October 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said: First please explain why "In any case, it wasn’t Oswald and it wasn’t an impersonation" sitting in the red Ford. The reason the man in the red car seen by mechanic White was not an impersonation is because the man never claimed to be Oswald, and there is no indication that that man wanted to be seen at all, let alone evidence that he wanted anyone to think he was Lee Harvey Oswald. Therefore, without intent to impersonate, it is not an impersonation. That mechanic White said after he saw Oswald on TV, "that was Oswald I saw!" is a mistaken identification, but not from an impersonation. Edited October 25 by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Coleman Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 I think MK is alluding to Bernard Haire’s experience and the balcony arrest report.. As much as I like Roger Craig, I agree a brief identification over such a distance can be problematic. But Cliff Shasteen was up close and personal to this customer at least three times over several visits - he’s welcomed into the shop, no doubt waits his turn then sits in front of the mirror, chats (or not, being his surly self…attracts more attention?) has haircut, gets brushed off, slight chat again..”anything for the weekend sir…?” then leaves and the barbers and patrons pass comments on the weird guy who just left, entering a Paine lookalike vehicle. Parked opposite a shop he’s been seen entering with two females, in the same lookalike vehicle. Multiple witnesses have been dissed over their identification qualities, but this guy was in his face, three times, I bet he smelt his breath. And why believe Herman but not Cliff? Barbers are barbers… Admittedly, the overalls, silk slippers and precocious kid throw up a three pointed red flag. Food for thought innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 8 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: The reason the man in the red car seen by mechanic White was not an impersonation is because the man never claimed to be Oswald, and there is no indication that that man wanted to be seen at all, let alone evidence that he wanted anyone to think he was Lee Harvey Oswald. Therefore, without intent to impersonate, it is not an impersonation. That mechanic White said after he saw Oswald on TV, "that was Oswald I saw!" is a mistaken identification, but not from an impersonation. One could prudently argue "the man in the red car" did not wish to discuss anything with T.F. White, but the rest is speculative. The second Oswald at TT and the red Ford incident are explained at Jim Hargrove's Harvey & Lee website. See "Something happened in the 2nd floor balcony at the Texas Theater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted October 25 Author Share Posted October 25 3 hours ago, Michael Kalin said: One could prudently argue "the man in the red car" did not wish to discuss anything with T.F. White, but the rest is speculative. The second Oswald at TT and the red Ford incident are explained at Jim Hargrove's Harvey & Lee website. See "Something happened in the 2nd floor balcony at the Texas Theater." No, I do not agree that there was a second Oswald bearing Oswald's same full legal name in a full lifetime with papers and identification and a second Marguerite mother and second Robert brother and also by coincidence looked almost exactly like Oswald even though genetically unrelated, in a massive decades-long spy operation, with the two of them micromanaged to be in the same theater on Fri Nov 22. That is the Harvey and Lee business. The man taken out back is well explained as George Applin who was taken by police downtown to give a statement, misunderstood by viewers seeing him being led out with police as under arrest. Burroughs' story told decades later sounds to me like a variant telling of George Applin being taken out with the police. I am convinced now there was no balcony involved in either Oswald or George Applin or anyone. I see now that the balcony in the early arrest report is a red herring part of these stories and a mistake deriving from that is where Julia Postal and Brewer and Burroughs mistakenly thought the man in a brown shirt had gone when he entered the theater even though he did not. I am convinced the man in the brown shirt was paid-ticket customer Oswald who had left the theater from the main level, gone out on Jefferson (looking for an expected car pickup I think may be why), then returned inside the theater to the main level again and was simply missed by Burroughs when he made his re-entrance to the main seating area. That the man Brewer saw in front of his store was Oswald, and not the killer of Tippit, I believe is indicated from the dark brown shirt of Oswald conflicting with the multiple witnesses who saw the fleeing killer of Tippit wearing a white shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: No, I do not agree that there was a second Oswald bearing Oswald's same full legal name in a full lifetime with papers and identification and a second Marguerite mother and second Robert brother and also by coincidence looked almost exactly like Oswald even though genetically unrelated, in a massive decades-long spy operation, with the two of them micromanaged to be in the same theater on Fri Nov 22. That is the Harvey and Lee business. The man taken out back is well explained as George Applin who was taken by police downtown to give a statement, misunderstood by viewers seeing him being led out with police as under arrest. Burroughs' story told decades later sounds to me like a variant telling of George Applin being taken out with the police. I am convinced now there was no balcony involved in either Oswald or George Applin or anyone. I see now that the balcony in the early arrest report is a red herring part of these stories and a mistake deriving from that is where Julia Postal and Brewer and Burroughs mistakenly thought the man in a brown shirt had gone when he entered the theater even though he did not. I am convinced the man in the brown shirt was paid-ticket customer Oswald who had left the theater from the main level, gone out on Jefferson (looking for an expected car pickup I think may be why), then returned inside the theater to the main level again and was simply missed by Burroughs when he made his re-entrance to the main seating area. That the man Brewer saw in front of his store was Oswald, and not the killer of Tippit, I believe is indicated from the dark brown shirt of Oswald conflicting with the multiple witnesses who saw the fleeing killer of Tippit wearing a white shirt. Evidently you did not follow the link. Here's a quote: Quote There are two DPD documents that identify the young man arrested in the balcony as LEE Oswald. This was the same person identified a few minutes earlier by Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson as Oswald when he was questioned by Cunningham and Toney. The first document, published in the Warren Volumes, is a Homicide Report prepared by Capt. C.E. Talbert that states, "Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater." Capt. Talbert was questioned extensively by the Warren Commission, but was never asked about his presence or his activities at the Texas Theater. The second document, also published in the Warren Volumes, is a memo/letter written by L.D. Stingfellow of the Criminal Intelligence Section to Capt. D. P. Gannaway and Lt. Jack Revill that states "On November 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater." A copy of the Homicide Report was included with the letter. Neither Stringfellow, Gannaway, nor Revill were questioned by the Warren Commission about this letter. So much for officers being misdirected by Burroughs & Postal into non-involvement. Also, George Applin did not resemble Oswald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted October 25 Author Share Posted October 25 I think you’re misunderstanding those police reports Michael. They aren’t talking about two distinct persons both named “Lee Harvey Oswald” as you’re supposing. They all only speak of one Lee Harvey Oswald not two, just confused on where the arrest occurred, although nobody there in the theater was in any confusion as to where Oswald was arrested or claimed to see him arrrested other than where he was. I don’t think a verified identity photo of George Applin is known to exist. I’ve seen a photo of someone unidentified who someone guessed might be Applin but that is not what I mean. Applin himself believed that he saw Jack Ruby sitting in the theater looking on while Oswald was being arrested, and said it terrified him and he feared telling. I don’t doubt his sincerity, but he was mistaken. I believe the person he saw was FBI agent Barrett whose photos I think somewhat resemble Ruby enough that Applin thought so. It just means people can be mistaken in identifications. It doesn’t mean there were two real Jack Rubys same age and looking alike running around Dallas. Wrong conclusion to draw! 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 14 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: I don’t think a verified identity photo of George Applin is known to exist. I’ve seen a photo of someone unidentified who someone guessed might be Applin but that is not what I mean. So this event also lacks evidence. Stifling my impulse to invoke Hitchens' razor (why be a killjoy?), instead proceeding in the spirit of this inquiry, worked the night through decoding both Torbitt Documents. Lo! a startling discovery came to me in the nocturnal void, that Applin wore a Crafard mask at TT, obtained at a fairgrounds' Halloween party. Bearing down on the literature revealed little in the way of contradictory evidence, probably fewer than a hundred contrary observations, all readily erased by auto-negation. With cunning integration of a Vaganov myth the potential is enormous for a new document, Metamorphoses: the Masks of Larry Crafard by William Torbitt III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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