Ray Reilly Posted Thursday at 09:24 PM Share Posted Thursday at 09:24 PM Surely the best shot opportunity for hitting JFK from the sixth floor window would have occurred during or just after the slow turn into Dealey Plaza.Why wait for a more difficult shot with the limousine going further away? Was the window shooter real or fabricated ? How would an unknown person enter and exit the TSB without being noticed and questioned by employees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bristow Posted Friday at 08:48 AM Share Posted Friday at 08:48 AM (edited) During the turn the follow up SS car would have been pointed towards the 6th floor window making it easier and quicker to return fire. LBJ's SS follow up car would also have a shot out of the left side windows. Once they were both pointed down Elm the SS would have had to turn around to find the source of the shots and take aim. It might have been better for a 6th floor shooter to wait for a couple seconds. The middle of the turn would have been a very easy shot as JFK was only about 70 ft away and his torso was visible. But maybe with a scope a later shot would have been a safer choice. Edited Friday at 08:49 AM by Chris Bristow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Schwartz Posted Friday at 12:47 PM Share Posted Friday at 12:47 PM From what I have read, the sixth floor shooter was fabricated. Using the manlicher rifle LHO was supposed to have used, it would have been been impossible to get 3 shots off in the amount of time LHO had. And, there are many who say that LHO was outside the Texas School Book Depository bldg. when the active shooting occurred. I believe that there may have been a shooter from the Dal Tex bldg and a shooter from behind the picket fence up on the grassy knoll. And, there could have been 1 or 2 more shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Friday at 08:42 PM Share Posted Friday at 08:42 PM 23 hours ago, Ray Reilly said: Surely the best shot opportunity for hitting JFK from the sixth floor window would have occurred during or just after the slow turn into Dealey Plaza.Why wait for a more difficult shot with the limousine going further away? Was the window shooter real or fabricated ? How would an unknown person enter and exit the TSB without being noticed and questioned by employees? This is a misnomer. I have read books on sniping and consulted with members of the military and the consensus is that the best shot would be the one with the least lateral movement, IOW, from directly behind. Well, directly behind in this case was the Dal-Tex Building. We have reason to believe, moreover, that the FBI was aware of this because they inserted images into the record they claimed were from the sniper's nest to show how easy the shots were that were actually from the Dal-Tex. As far as how someone could get into the TSBD etc, I have what amounts to a short book on that in chapter 4, Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald In this chapter I go through all the statements and testimony regarding the TSBD in the moments before and after the shooting, and show how the back of the building was completely unguarded before the shooting, and for some time after, and where there was an additional exit to the west of the building that remained unguarded for quite some time. I also show that the WC's re-enactment of the elevator movements was deceptive and how it's near certain an elevator came down from a top floor two minutes or so after the shooting that can not be accounted for by the statements of the witnesses. IOW, it appears some unidentified person came down, and was not apprehended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Friday at 08:53 PM Share Posted Friday at 08:53 PM 7 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said: From what I have read, the sixth floor shooter was fabricated. Using the manlicher rifle LHO was supposed to have used, it would have been been impossible to get 3 shots off in the amount of time LHO had. And, there are many who say that LHO was outside the Texas School Book Depository bldg. when the active shooting occurred. I believe that there may have been a shooter from the Dal Tex bldg and a shooter from behind the picket fence up on the grassy knoll. And, there could have been 1 or 2 more shooters. 1. It was not impossible to get 3 shots off with that rifle in the proposed time, but it was highly unlikely two or more of those three shots would be accurate on a moving target at the distance proposed. So you're mostly right. 2. The many who say Oswald was outside were not actual witnesses, but people who came along decades later and thought they saw someone who looked like Oswald in a blurry photo. Oswald himself never said he was outside to the press or to his family. 3. I agree there may have been a shooter from the Dal-tex, but find a knoll shooter unlikely, seeing as many people looked in that direction but no one saw anyone. I accept also that those claiming they saw smoke come out from that area were telling the truth. And this has led me to suspect there was a diversionary device of some sort that was fired to confuse the witnesses, and make them think shots were coming from in front of Kennedy. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted Friday at 09:16 PM Share Posted Friday at 09:16 PM 19 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: Oswald himself never said he was outside to the press or to his family. Pat, bypassing the issue of what he claimed after his arrest, can you think of any conceivably plausible reason why, if Oswald was on that first floor, as I believe you hold, he would not step out the front door to see Kennedy and the First Lady go by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Friday at 09:54 PM Share Posted Friday at 09:54 PM 33 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said: Pat, bypassing the issue of what he claimed after his arrest, can you think of any conceivably plausible reason why, if Oswald was on that first floor, as I believe you hold, he would not step out the front door to see Kennedy and the First Lady go by? 1. He was Oswald. 2. He may very well have been part of a plot. Perhaps he was trying to infiltrate an anti-Castro group and they told him they wanted to hang a protest banner from the sixth floor, and all he had to do was hang around at the back of the building and make sure the coast was clear. The domino room, after all, had a view up the hallway by the back door, and would have allowed him to see anyone coming and going. It would have been an ideal location for a lookout. 3. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted Friday at 10:25 PM Share Posted Friday at 10:25 PM 27 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: 1. He was Oswald. 2. He may very well have been part of a plot. Perhaps he was trying to infiltrate an anti-Castro group and they told him they wanted to hang a protest banner from the sixth floor, and all he had to do was hang around at the back of the building and make sure the coast was clear. The domino room, after all, had a view up the hallway by the back door, and would have allowed him to see anyone coming and going. It would have been an ideal location for a lookout. 3. Who knows? But it’s just not on your radar as a possibility… ? 4. He did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Saturday at 12:27 AM Share Posted Saturday at 12:27 AM 2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: But it’s just not on your radar as a possibility… ? 4. He did. Well, it would be a possibility if anyone saw him outside, or he actually said he was outside when the shots were fired. But 5. He did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted Saturday at 12:55 AM Share Posted Saturday at 12:55 AM (edited) 1 hour ago, Pat Speer said: Well, it would be a possibility if anyone saw him outside, or he actually said he was outside when the shots were fired. But 5. He did not. Well you accept he was in the domino room, and met Pierce Allman at the front doors, even though nobody said they saw Oswald either of those places. Could you say your present opinion on whether you regard PM as excluded as identifiable as Oswald on photographic grounds alone, and if so what photographic grounds alone you see as excluding (or probably excluding) an Oswald identification? That is—and the question is photo interpretation alone, no other factors entering in—do you think there is sufficient clarity or information in those Darnell or Wiegman photos to exclude Oswald as the identity? (After considering the dark-clothed woman in front of PM.) This isn’t meant to be absolutist or foreclose changing your mind in the future, just do you see an exclusion or falsification there on photographic grounds alone? Edited Saturday at 01:32 AM by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted Saturday at 01:34 AM Share Posted Saturday at 01:34 AM 3 hours ago, Pat Speer said: 1. He was Oswald. 2. He may very well have been part of a plot. Perhaps he was trying to infiltrate an anti-Castro group and they told him they wanted to hang a protest banner from the sixth floor, and all he had to do was hang around at the back of the building and make sure the coast was clear. The domino room, after all, had a view up the hallway by the back door, and would have allowed him to see anyone coming and going. It would have been an ideal location for a lookout. 3. Who knows? PS-- Here's one problem with the "LHO was not on TSBD6 during the JFKA": 1. There are many witnesses, including Amos Euins, who saw someone point a rifle out of TSBD6 and fire during the JFKA. Euins reported what he saw immediately to a Dallas police officer on Elm Street below the TSBD, and was overheard by a news-reporter. It should be added, none of those witnesses were able to ID the shooter, other than to say he appeared to be a male, with light-colored skin. 2. OK, that TSBD6 shooter, even if a decoy, was able to exit the building without being seen. So, it could have been LHO, or another person. 3. However, we know LHO worked in the TSBD, knew the layout, and worked on TSBD6, and was likely an intel-state asset. He was 24, had passed through Marine boot camp, and lithe. Not an athlete, but could move quickly enough. He is considered smart and savvy, if troublesome. 4. We also know that not one witness ever said, "As shots rang out, I exchanged glances with LHO," or anything to that effect. LHO is invisible during the JFKA. 5. The blurry photograph of what looks like a broad-set woman in a dress on the TSBD6 steps...really? This is evidence? The upshot: It seems like a good bet LHO was the TSBD6 shooter, or acting as a lookout, something to that effect. He may have been an unwitting participant in the JFKA. If unwitting, he appears to have been made the patsy, which he recognized rather quickly, and went home and got his revolver. Side note: LHO, in his interrogation, admitted to having a revolver when arrested. "That's what boys do, they go home and get their gun," is what he is reported to have said. And who goes and watches a movie in the hour after the JFKA? I agree that the GK smoke-and-bang show was possibly a diversion. A snub-nose .38 could have done the trick, or large firecracker. No one has explained if JFK was shot from the right side...where did the bullet exit? One purported exit wound, in the right rear lower portion of JFK's skull...doesn't make sense from a GK shot. On the other hand, the motorcycle officers, to JFK's left, did get splatter. A puzzle without an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Saturday at 03:56 AM Share Posted Saturday at 03:56 AM (edited) 3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: Well you accept he was in the domino room, and met Pierce Allman at the front doors, even though nobody said they saw Oswald either of those places. Could you say your present opinion on whether you regard PM as excluded as identifiable as Oswald on photographic grounds alone, and if so what photographic grounds alone you see as excluding (or probably excluding) an Oswald identification? That is—and the question is photo interpretation alone, no other factors entering in—do you think there is sufficient clarity or information in those Darnell or Wiegman photos to exclude Oswald as the identity? (After considering the dark-clothed woman in front of PM.) This isn’t meant to be absolutist or foreclose changing your mind in the future, just do you see an exclusion or falsification there on photographic grounds alone? It never looked like Oswald to me, and has looked less like him as better images have become available. I know you haven't seen it but there was someone who got access to a better image than most have seen and had a gathering to show it to people who might publicize it. Well, he claimed you could make out Oswald's ring and military bracelet etc, and convinced everyone he was not quite right. To me it looks no more like Oswald than your avatar does Elvis or Mama Cass. Edited Saturday at 03:57 AM by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Saturday at 04:14 AM Share Posted Saturday at 04:14 AM 2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said: PS-- Here's one problem with the "LHO was not on TSBD6 during the JFKA": 1. There are many witnesses, including Amos Euins, who saw someone point a rifle out of TSBD6 and fire during the JFKA. Euins reported what he saw immediately to a Dallas police officer on Elm Street below the TSBD, and was overheard by a news-reporter. It should be added, none of those witnesses were able to ID the shooter, other than to say he appeared to be a male, with light-colored skin. 2. OK, that TSBD6 shooter, even if a decoy, was able to exit the building without being seen. So, it could have been LHO, or another person. 3. However, we know LHO worked in the TSBD, knew the layout, and worked on TSBD6, and was likely an intel-state asset. He was 24, had passed through Marine boot camp, and lithe. Not an athlete, but could move quickly enough. He is considered smart and savvy, if troublesome. 4. We also know that not one witness ever said, "As shots rang out, I exchanged glances with LHO," or anything to that effect. LHO is invisible during the JFKA. 5. The blurry photograph of what looks like a broad-set woman in a dress on the TSBD6 steps...really? This is evidence? The upshot: It seems like a good bet LHO was the TSBD6 shooter, or acting as a lookout, something to that effect. He may have been an unwitting participant in the JFKA. If unwitting, he appears to have been made the patsy, which he recognized rather quickly, and went home and got his revolver. Side note: LHO, in his interrogation, admitted to having a revolver when arrested. "That's what boys do, they go home and get their gun," is what he is reported to have said. And who goes and watches a movie in the hour after the JFKA? I agree that the GK smoke-and-bang show was possibly a diversion. A snub-nose .38 could have done the trick, or large firecracker. No one has explained if JFK was shot from the right side...where did the bullet exit? One purported exit wound, in the right rear lower portion of JFK's skull...doesn't make sense from a GK shot. On the other hand, the motorcycle officers, to JFK's left, did get splatter. A puzzle without an answer. 1. I agree someone was in the window. But it wasn't Oswald. The only one to say it was Oswald was Brennan, after being tracked down by the FBI, and he insisted the shooter wasn't wearing the shirt the police claimed Oswald had been wearing. 2. I spent a year re-reading all the statements regarding the TSBD and put them together in my chapter Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. Oswald was last seen on the first floor by Eddie Piper, and there is no evidence he went back up to the sixth floor. When one honestly puts together the witness statements, for that matter, it's clear someone came downstairs on an elevator as Baker and Truly ran up, and that this wasn't Dougherty, or Oswald. 3. Yes, Oswald was wily. That doesn't make him a shooter.In fact, his presumed shooting ability based upon his lack of recent practice pretty much rules him out as a shooter. 4. Yes, no one saw Oswald at the time of the shooting. That doesn't mean he was floors away from where he was last seen at 12:00 or where he saw Jarman and Norman around 12:20. There's also this. If Oswald had lied when he said he was in the domino room, just think about the risk he was taking. I mean how would he have known no one could say he was not there unless he'd actually been there? 5. Agreed. Prayer Man is probably a woman. If you thought I'd said any different I let me disabuse you of that. I think I was the first to say I thought it was a woman, and I've never wavered. As far as the splatter...you should read Hargis' statements. He said the blood and brain went up and then came down as he drove through it. The frequent claim blood and brain exploded out the back of the head is a myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted Saturday at 04:42 AM Share Posted Saturday at 04:42 AM (edited) 1 hour ago, Pat Speer said: It never looked like Oswald to me, and has looked less like him as better images have become available. I know you haven't seen it but there was someone who got access to a better image than most have seen and had a gathering to show it to people who might publicize it. Well, he claimed you could make out Oswald's ring and military bracelet etc, and convinced everyone he was not quite right. To me it looks no more like Oswald than your avatar does Elvis or Mama Cass. OK. The underappreciated but important point there is that since that figure (PM) is not satisfactorily otherwise identified, until any given possible identification is ruled out, it is not ruled out, and as long as the figure in fact remains unidentified, Oswald is a viable possibility until or unless it is established he isn't. This point gains added force in that some non-photographic reasons suggest it could be him. The point of your last line would have more force if there was another good identification for PM, but at this late date the case remains that there is not, unusual in its own right. (Sarah Stanton is not since she is fairly clearly identifiable as the figure to Frazier's immediate left in Darnell.) But OK, you've said what you think, its all part of the discussion, all good. May I ask, (a) in your opinion was that image you saw indeed a better image than are now being shown by e.g. Mark Ulrik? (b) do you know if that was different or the same as the recently released 6FM copy of Darnell? and (c) if different, are you able to say from memory, if you remember, anything specifically relevant to the alleged scoop neckline issue? Thanks. Edited Saturday at 05:22 AM by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted Saturday at 05:35 AM Share Posted Saturday at 05:35 AM (edited) 53 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said: OK. The underappreciated but important point there is that since that figure (PM) is not satisfactorily otherwise identified, until any given possible identification is ruled out, it is not ruled out, and as long as the figure in fact remains unidentified, Oswald is a viable possibility until or unless it is established he isn't. This point gains added force in that some non-photographic reasons suggest it could be him. The point of your last line would have more force if there was another good identification for PM, but at this late date the case remains that there is not, unusual in its own right. (Sarah Stanton is not since she is fairly clearly identifiable as the figure to Frazier's immediate left in Darnell.) But OK, you've said what you think, its all part of the discussion, all good. May I ask, (a) in your opinion was that image you saw indeed a better image than are now being shown by e.g. Mark Ulrik? (b) do you know if that was different or the same as the recently released 6FM copy of Darnell? and (c) if different, are you able to say from memory, if you remember, anything specifically relevant to the alleged scoop neckline issue? Thanks. It looked the same to me as the image in the sixth floor copy. But the guy doing the presentation had fiddled with the contrast and such and said "Look, it's a bracelet, etc." It was nonsense. As far as not ruling it out, you can't rule out that the figure was Sarah Stanton, who was identified as being on the top stair. So let me see.. we have someone who was known to be there...who it might be...but we'd rather pretend it was Oswald...who never said he was there and no one said was there. Strange. Edited Saturday at 05:40 AM by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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