Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum

[Terry Mauro]

The analogy you made to McCarthyism was right on; if you look at the way "holocaust deniers" are dealt with, you will find the same kind of name-calling and association by guilt. Just replace "commie," "pinko," "red" and "fellow traveler" with "holocaust denier,""anti-semite,""hater" and "neo-nazi."

The situation with regards to muslims in the U.K. is certainly no better in the U.S. Look at  Guantanimo Bay! But we are at "war," one with no apparent end in sight, and so everyone named Mohammed or Nasser is a potential member of Al Queda. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But these are not legitimate analogies and do not stand up to rational comparison.

Neo Nazis are not "identified" and dealt with in the same way as the victims of McCarthyism were. .

Young Muslims banged up without charge in inhuman conditions by a repulsive Whitehouse regime have absolutely nothing in common with anti semitic historians getting into trouble with the law in Canada or elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Andy,

What alleged "commie" or "pinko" was ever dealt with as harshly as Ernst Zundel has been dealt with? A Hollywood blacklist is one thing; solitary confinement is another. This doesn't minimize what many liberals went through in the 1950s, but at least most of those who were alleged to be "commies" had the sympathy of many liberals, in the entertainment industry and academia. No one appears to have any sympathy for the likes of Ernst Zundel, except his fellow historical revisionists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don,

It seems that the clear-cut facts regarding Zundel's imprisonment in a state of solitary confinement regarding his "not so" free-expression, in challenging the validity of what may have been the purpose of Auschwitz's gas chambers, may be over-shadowed by the emotional backlash that has become similar to a knee-jerk response by society-at-large. While I, as well as most of my generation, and I say this with all due respect for those who've suffered the atrocities, have been made witness to the horrors via the numerous televised accounts, as well as the actual photographic footage taken by the liberators of the death camps. I am also acutely aware of the impact these visual scenes have had on my conscience as a human being, and as witness, to that which has been entered into the historical record.

I, much as yourself, regard this imprisonment as a violation of human rights taken to the other extreme. I fail to see the danger Zundel proposes, as far as fear of incitement to riot, or advocation of the mass rounding up of ethnic groups with the re-instatement of the concentration camps. In fact, I view this as a direct insult to the intelligence of the Canadian people as a whole, and a direct affront on their ability to be trusted to make cognizant decisions on their own. Solitary confinement for expressing an opinion? Then, I assure you, there are a whole lot of us down here in the lower forty-eight, whom I fear, would thus be so confined. Perhaps, our brethren to the north may not have had the opportunity to totally absorb the implications of how all of this may impact their future ability to make informed, or collective decisions, and their right to remain doing as such.

The emotional outrage elicited by a subject such as The Holocaust, will continue to cloud any future debate that runs counter to the historical record, even if such a debate were to challenge that "the gas chambers were merely de-lousing facilities, that ended up being responsible for the deaths of those who were elderly, or infirmed, or those whose immune systems had been extremely compromised by the harsh living conditions they were subjected to, in these camps". Millions still died, regardless of whether, directly or indirectly, due to insecticides, or gas, or starvation, be it Jew, Gypsy, Pole, or other ethnic group not recognized by the

"German Aryan" ideology as to that which constituted "a pure, white, race".

Every picture tells a story. And, as an eight-year-old, I was subjected to many nightmares after witnessing what I had seen chronicled on television of Auschwitz,

Dachau, and Bergen-Belsen. And even though I reserve the right "to never forget", I also reserve the right to dissent, whether through the art of discourse,

or peaceful, public demonstration. The erosion of the right to express an opinion

is still considered an infringement of The Bill of Rights, at least it still was, here in

the U.S. Therefore, what has taken place with respect to Canadian law, I can only view as a threat to the Constitutional rights of those of us, here in the States.

And, while I realize how backward and loutish our system may be, how corrupt and derelict our government is to allow itself to be bought and sold by the very

entities we search out to nail to the cross for assassinating JFK, I still reserve the

right to express my difference of opinion and make known my abhorrence to this Nazi Fascist Oligarchal regime, fraudulently placed in power in D.C., along with its bogus Federal Reserve International Banking Cartel, and its Wall Street Gambling houses. And, I also reserve the right to describe the methods I'd personally choose

to "ice", "liquidate", "eliminate", or "annihilate" them all from the face of the earth, without fear of being thrown into solitary confinement, or some other form of human rights harrassment.

Any person, or country, enacting a law proclaiming that an individual's right to express oneself in any form of dissent, or divergence from what is deemed to be "the norm", or what is considered to be "politically correct", and, that "said" individual deserves to be thrown in jail, exiled to Siberia, or worse, is someone who no longer thinks with an independent mind and therefore, deserves to live in an autocracy where they can be told exactly what to think, what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and thus be devoid of any urge or passion to ever think in a creative or critical manner, again. Utopia.

[Bernice Moore]

The History of the Zundel case in Canada and the United States.

Please read all, if interested......

I am very proud of Canada..for taking such a stand, and opening itself to this type of criticism, to protect all of it's citizens....

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp...d=2&item=zundel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bernice,

I think you and I have had some nice exchanges in the past, so I hope you don't consider me an ogre for feeling so strongly about this subject. I don't think it's right to be imprisoning people for "thought crimes," even if those thoughts are considered deplorable by most of society. Why would you be proud of Canada for placing a non-violent man in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for two years, a man whose only "crime" is disputing the "official facts" about a portion of history? Exactly what is the Canadian government "protecting" its citizens from by doing this?

I could understand the views expressed by many here, if Zundel (or any other revisionist) were expressing their support for the nazi extermination of jews. I would be as outraged as any of you if someone thought it was a good thing to exterminate a group of people, joked about it or talked about finishing the job. That's not what Zundel and his fellow revisionists are doing, however. They are claiming that there was no extermination program. I understand how that offends those who were in the camps, or their loved ones, but it shouldn't offend anybody enough to place those who hold this view in prison.

Question for any of you: if some revisionists claimed that Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn had greatly exaggerated the suffering of those in the gulags, do you think you'd hear much of an uproar from the survivors of those gulags, or their loved ones? Would any of you support putting such a revisionist in prison for claiming that?

Remember, all of us here (except for the handful of LNers) are "denying" an "official" part of history. Let's hope that in the future there isn't a push to place people like us in prison for maintaining that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*************

Hi Don:

Yes we have had nice exchanges in the past and we will again, just because we may differ on thougths, well on these type of sites, I believe that is what they have been created for, we are fortunate to have access to them...

No I am not an extremist by any meaning of the word....I posted the link so that people would have the opportunity to see perhaps some of all that was behind the reason for this action...there were three countries involved here, not one...

I do think that hate literature, and such can help to urge others groups to take on

minoritys and such and that can and does lead to riots, beatings and racists remarks...Children and the youth are very vulnerable to such, if taught in the home, or as some say, LHO was indoctrinated in some way to his Communist leanings because of a pamphlet he was handed on a street corner,which I also think was just more crap from the coverup people...but anyway such can happen and does happen...then they become involved in such groups and the hate spreads...

There are many documents not released on all this, like another we know of...therefore I do support my government for shutting down perhaps this one link to such being curbed...at this time......I find it difficult to believe that three governments have no reasons for trying to curb this man and his leanings...and his literature,which is support for hate groups....just because he does not swing the club, does not mean he is not giving them a reason to pick such up or not encouraging them by inciting and in a way handing it to them....

I think when we see this type of literature, or a remark made to say a man,woman or child on any type of descrimination, that is the time to speak out, not after the fact, like now...if that had been done and perhaps people had ,had the courage in the first place, but that is not the way of human nature..as we know, none of this may have happened in the first place in history...I hear lots of well I didn't say anything or I didn't do anything "because"...

Remember the poem.."then they came for me"....

I have no answers to this type of subject, but I do know that in the past and in the future, as I have and my family, when such a remark is made, or a joke supposedly to be funny, takes a pot shot at any religion or race, they are not allowed, not in our presence...we make our disagreement known...

that is what I have tried to teach my children and grandchildren and their spouses.

We have grandchildren whose Mom is indian, we have seen the looks, and seen the smiley snears, and we know about all about the remarks that were spoken after....we don't live with it, we shoot back, and always have...so do not in anyway any of you, jump to nor, make any remark or hint about me being in any way an extremist, nor your conclusions as some of you have as you have not walked in my shoes, and know nothing about me , simpley because I posted a link that I thought, you all might read first, before you made any remarks, it was to give you simply some background on the given subject...as I did not see any real knowledge about Zundel being stated..

All I do know, is that if this man and his types are allowed to spread their poison whether by phamplets, radio, web sites whatever, it spreads it is a desease, and is now more prevailant, in some ways, than I have seen in many years....it is not just against a certain race of people but also towards any minority, any colour and other creeds....

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but not when it hurts and can incite others being beaten,targeted or hurt and maimed in anyway...this is the other side to the coin perhaps....with the Freedom of speech comes much responsibility..

To all, instead of spouting off on a Forum, the next time you hear a joke directed at a minority group or another religion, or are passed a phamphlet, or come to a site who preaches this unacceptable trash, make your thougths known, don't just talk about it on here, do something about it, even if it is only a written complaint to such a site, even if it is a remark to such a person, when handing him or her back the phamplet...and teach and tell your youth WHY it is wrong...if that does make me an extremist then so be it.....I am perhaps thinking though I also agree I do not like to see anyone imprisioned , for no reason there is too much posting going on his plight and not the plight of others that he has been preaching his hate against all these years....and has encouraged others to harm in some way..Hate breeds hate, labels enourage others to use them, it is not remembered when the label is removed, it is only recalled that the accustation was made...as Dennis has done with Ian and myself....that is an old disinfo ploy as we of the JFK assn forums know all about....swing first with no proof nor documentation, and accuse whomever of whatever you feel like it at the time, label him a disinfo or CIA or whatever, it'll stick, well not this time it shall not Dennis....shame on you...you spout off, without thinking at times, and by taking what I stated out of context, and without even reading the link first, that I thought you and others perhaps may be interested in.....And speaking of free speech, it is my right to express myself that I do support my Government without being jumped on for it....for whatever reason...and in this case whether you or any disagree, that is my opinion....right now...Zundel and his kind need to be stopped,and not by just talking about it on Forums....hate is a desease and needs to be wiped out....

Now go ahead and take all the pot shots you want, all or any of you, I have had my say,for now..I will be back..... in otherwards ladies and gentlemen, put up or shut up, do something about it real problem not just talk...words are very cheap as we all know, if not then we should......

B

Edited February 5, 2005 by Bernice Moore

[Don Jeffries]

Don,

It seems that the clear-cut facts regarding Zundel's imprisonment in a state of solitary confinement regarding his "not so" free-expression, in challenging the validity of what may have been the purpose of Auschwitz's gas chambers, may be over-shadowed by the emotional backlash that has become similar to a knee-jerk response by society-at-large. While I, as well as most of my generation, and I say this with all due respect for those who've suffered the atrocities, have been made witness to the horrors via the numerous televised accounts, as well as the actual photographic footage taken by the liberators of the death camps. I am also acutely aware of the impact these visual scenes have had on my conscience as a human being, and as witness, to that which has been entered into the historical record.

I, much as yourself, regard this imprisonment as a violation of human rights taken to the other extreme. I fail to see the danger Zundel proposes, as far as fear of incitement to riot, or advocation of the mass rounding up of ethnic groups with the re-instatement of the concentration camps. In fact, I view this as a direct insult to the intelligence of the Canadian people as a whole, and a direct affront on their ability to be trusted to make cognizant decisions on their own. Solitary confinement for expressing an opinion? Then, I assure you, there are a whole lot of us down here in the lower forty-eight, whom I fear, would thus be so confined. Perhaps, our brethren to the north may not have had the opportunity to totally absorb the implications of how all of this may impact their future ability to make informed, or collective decisions, and their right to remain doing as such.

The emotional outrage elicited by a subject such as The Holocaust, will continue to cloud any future debate that runs counter to the historical record, even if such a debate were to challenge that "the gas chambers were merely de-lousing facilities, that ended up being responsible for the deaths of those who were elderly, or infirmed, or those whose immune systems had been extremely compromised by the harsh living conditions they were subjected to, in these camps". Millions still died, regardless of whether, directly or indirectly, due to insecticides, or gas, or starvation, be it Jew, Gypsy, Pole, or other ethnic group not recognized by the

"German Aryan" ideology as to that which constituted "a pure, white, race".

Every picture tells a story. And, as an eight-year-old, I was subjected to many nightmares after witnessing what I had seen chronicled on television of Auschwitz,

Dachau, and Bergen-Belsen. And even though I reserve the right "to never forget", I also reserve the right to dissent, whether through the art of discourse,

or peaceful, public demonstration. The erosion of the right to express an opinion

is still considered an infringement of The Bill of Rights, at least it still was, here in

the U.S. Therefore, what has taken place with respect to Canadian law, I can only view as a threat to the Constitutional rights of those of us, here in the States.

And, while I realize how backward and loutish our system may be, how corrupt and derelict our government is to allow itself to be bought and sold by the very

entities we search out to nail to the cross for assassinating JFK, I still reserve the

right to express my difference of opinion and make known my abhorrence to this Nazi Fascist Oligarchal regime, fraudulently placed in power in D.C., along with its bogus Federal Reserve International Banking Cartel, and its Wall Street Gambling houses. And, I also reserve the right to describe the methods I'd personally choose

to "ice", "liquidate", "eliminate", or "annihilate" them all from the face of the earth, without fear of being thrown into solitary confinement, or some other form of human rights harrassment.

Any person, or country, enacting a law proclaiming that an individual's right to express oneself in any form of dissent, or divergence from what is deemed to be "the norm", or what is considered to be "politically correct", and, that "said" individual deserves to be thrown in jail, exiled to Siberia, or worse, is someone who no longer thinks with an independent mind and therefore, deserves to live in an autocracy where they can be told exactly what to think, what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and thus be devoid of any urge or passion to ever think in a creative or critical manner, again. Utopia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terry,

Great comments. I think more people would speak out against what is being done to Zundel if they could simply eliminate "nazi" from the equation and see the situation for what it is; a non-violent individual suffering cruel and unusual punishment for espousing unpopular ideas about a slice of history.

[Terry Mauro]

The History of the Zundel case in Canada and the United States.

Please read all, if interested......

I am very proud of Canada..for taking such a stand, and opening itself to this type of criticism, to protect all of it's citizens....

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp...d=2&item=zundel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Bern,

I've read the link you posted. It's from the ADL, an arm of the JDL, which is an Israeli intelligence gatherer. Please post the links to the other articles you mentioned, as I would like to read it from a less biased viewpoint.

I'm not advocating this person's mindset. It goes against everything I stand for.

But, I do believe that a sentence of solitary confinement is quite draconian for someone who hasn't committed a homicidal act, or one of assault, battery, or

torture. Why not deport him to Germany, where he'd be among more kindred spirits?

The Anti-Defamation League/Jewish Defense League is not delivering an unbiased account, especially when their specific purpose is to police those, such as Zundel, who run counter to their interpretation of how the world should be run, to the point of having them jailed for exercising their free speech privileges.

You can send them off to my home, if you'd like.

Thanks.

from the little beggar to the south

[Don Jeffries]

Hi Don:

Yes we have had nice exchanges in the past and we will again, just because we may differ on thougths, well on these type of sites, I believe that is what they have been created for, we are fortunate to have access to them...

No I am not an extremist by any meaning of the word....I posted the link so that people would have the opportunity to see perhaps some of all that was behind the reason for this action...there were three countries involved here, not one...

I do think that hate literature, and such can help to urge others groups to take on

minoritys and such and that can and does lead to riots, beatings and racists remarks...Children and the youth are very vulnerable to such, if taught in the home, or as some say, LHO was indoctrinated in some way to his Communist leanings because of a pamphlet he was handed on a street corner,which I also think was just more crap from the coverup people...but anyway such can happen and does happen...then they become involved in such groups and the hate spreads...

There are many documents not released on all this, like another we know of...therefore I do support my government for shutting down perhaps this one link to such being curbed...at this time......I find it difficult to believe that three governments have no reasons for trying to curb this man and his leanings...and his literature,which is support for hate groups....just because he does not swing the club, does not mean he is not giving them a reason to pick such up or not encouraging them by inciting and in a way handing it to them....

I think when we see this type of literature, or a remark made to say a man,woman or child on any type of descrimination, that is the time to speak out, not after the fact, like now...if that had been done and perhaps people had ,had the courage in the first place, but that is not the way of human nature..as we know, none of this may have happened in the first place in history...I hear lots of well I didn't say anything or I didn't do anything "because"...

Remember the poem.."then they came for me"....

I have no answers to this type of subject, but I do know that in the past and in the future, as I have and my family, when such a remark is made, or a joke supposedly to be funny, takes a pot shot at any religion or race, they are not allowed, not in our presence...we make our disagreement known...

that is what I have tried to teach my children and grandchildren and their spouses.

We have grandchildren whose Mom is indian, we have seen the looks, and seen the smiley snears, and we know about all about the remarks that were spoken after....we don't live with it, we shoot back, and always have...so do not in anyway any of you, jump to nor, make any remark or hint about me being in any way an extremist, nor your conclusions as some of you have as you have not walked in my shoes, and know nothing about me , simpley because I posted a link that I thought, you all might read first, before you made any remarks, it was to give you simply some background on the given subject...as I did not see any real knowledge about Zundel being stated..

All I do know, is that if this man and his types are allowed to spread their poison whether by phamplets, radio, web sites whatever, it spreads it is a desease, and is now more prevailant, in some ways, than I have seen in many years....it is not just against a certain race of people but also towards any minority, any colour and other creeds....

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but not when it hurts and can incite others being beaten,targeted or hurt and maimed in anyway...this is the other side to the coin perhaps....with the Freedom of speech comes much responsibility..

To all, instead of spouting off on a Forum, the next time you hear a joke directed at a minority group or another religion, or are passed a phamphlet, or come to a site who preaches this unacceptable trash, make your thougths known, don't just talk about it on here, do something about it, even if it is only a written complaint to such a site, even if it is a remark to such a person, when handing him or her back the phamplet...and teach and tell your youth WHY it is wrong...if that does make me an extremist then so be it.....I am perhaps thinking though I also agree I do not like to see anyone imprisioned , for no reason there is too much posting going on his plight and not the plight of others that he has been preaching his hate against all these years....and has encouraged others to harm in some way..Hate breeds hate, labels enourage others to use them, it is not remembered when the label is removed, it is only recalled that the accustation was made...as Dennis has done with Ian and myself....that is an old disinfo ploy as we of the JFK assn forums know all about....swing first with no proof nor documentation, and accuse whomever of whatever you feel like it at the time, label him a disinfo or CIA or whatever, it'll stick, well not this time it shall not Dennis....shame on you...you spout off, without thinking at times, and by taking what I stated out of context, and without even reading the link first, that I thought you and others perhaps may be interested in.....And speaking of free speech, it is my right to express myself that I do support my Government without being jumped on for it....for whatever reason...and in this case whether you or any disagree, that is my opinion....right now...Zundel and his kind need to be stopped,and not by just talking about it on Forums....hate is a desease and needs to be wiped out....

Now go ahead and take all the pot shots you want, all or any of you, I have had my say,for now..I will be back..... in otherwards ladies and gentlemen, put up or shut up, do something about it real problem not just talk...words are very cheap as we all know, if not then we should......

B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bernice,

I appreciate your comments. I think you're letting the subject matter (nazis, jews) cloud the larger issue at hand, which is a matter of basic civil liberties. BTW, Zundel is not the only "holocaust denier" in prison now. I don't have the names handy, but I know there have been others imprisoned in Germany, France, Australia and Canada (if not elsewhere) for the same "thought crimes." Zundel is just the most noteworthy, in my mind, because of the incredibly harsh manner in which he's been treated.

I can tell you have a sensitive, bleeding heart. So do I. I've never liked jokes that make fun of particular groups, either. I've always been attracted to the underdog, the outsider; when my children were small, I would always make sure that they never learned to say "you can't play" to some new kid that wandered up to their group.

Try to understand how Zundel must feel at this point. The man must really believe in his convictions; he has already had two trials prior to this imprisonment. All he'd have to do to stay out of jail, apparently, is to stop "denying" the holocaust. The fact that he refuses to do this may reflect his stubborness, but it also demonstrates he's willing to suffer for his beliefs. Maybe, just maybe, he's so sure of himself for a very good reason. In other words, the revisionists could be right.

[Dawn Meredith]

The analogy you made to McCarthyism was right on; if you look at the way "holocaust deniers" are dealt with, you will find the same kind of name-calling and association by guilt. Just replace "commie," "pinko," "red" and "fellow traveler" with "holocaust denier,""anti-semite,""hater" and "neo-nazi."

The situation with regards to muslims in the U.K. is certainly no better in the U.S. Look at  Guantanimo Bay! But we are at "war," one with no apparent end in sight, and so everyone named Mohammed or Nasser is a potential member of Al Queda. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But these are not legitimate analogies and do not stand up to rational comparison.

Neo Nazis are not "identified" and dealt with in the same way as the victims of McCarthyism were. .

Young Muslims banged up without charge in inhuman conditions by a repulsive Whitehouse regime have absolutely nothing in common with anti semitic historians getting into trouble with the law in Canada or elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Andy,

What alleged "commie" or "pinko" was ever dealt with as harshly as Ernst Zundel has been dealt with? A Hollywood blacklist is one thing; solitary confinement is another. This doesn't minimize what many liberals went through in the 1950s, but at least most of those who were alleged to be "commies" had the sympathy of many liberals, in the entertainment industry and academia. No one appears to have any sympathy for the likes of Ernst Zundel, except his fellow historical revisionists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

________________________________-

Keep in mind that entire families were ruined by the "Hollywood black list". Writers could no longer work, some killed themselves. Their crime? Often marching or being in some way associated with a peace movement!!

Woody Allen did a wonderful movie about 30 years ago on this outrageous historical "event". I believe it was called "The Front". See it.

Dawn

[Don Jeffries]

The analogy you made to McCarthyism was right on; if you look at the way "holocaust deniers" are dealt with, you will find the same kind of name-calling and association by guilt. Just replace "commie," "pinko," "red" and "fellow traveler" with "holocaust denier,""anti-semite,""hater" and "neo-nazi."

The situation with regards to muslims in the U.K. is certainly no better in the U.S. Look at  Guantanimo Bay! But we are at "war," one with no apparent end in sight, and so everyone named Mohammed or Nasser is a potential member of Al Queda. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But these are not legitimate analogies and do not stand up to rational comparison.

Neo Nazis are not "identified" and dealt with in the same way as the victims of McCarthyism were. .

Young Muslims banged up without charge in inhuman conditions by a repulsive Whitehouse regime have absolutely nothing in common with anti semitic historians getting into trouble with the law in Canada or elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dawn,

I agree completely; many families were indeed ruined by the red scare. However, the same exact thing has happened to many "holocaust deniers," and they have families, too. I'm sure Ernst Zundel's family isn't much happier than he is about that two years worth of solitary confinement. I wouldn't have supported the witch hunt against "commies" and "pinkos" in the '50s, and I think it's only consistent to be just as opposed to the witch hunt against "holocaust deniers" (albeit on a much less grand scale) around the world today. "Open Air" access to all information and a free exchange of all ideas and opinions is the only way to find the truth about a particular part of history.

Andy,

What alleged "commie" or "pinko" was ever dealt with as harshly as Ernst Zundel has been dealt with? A Hollywood blacklist is one thing; solitary confinement is another. This doesn't minimize what many liberals went through in the 1950s, but at least most of those who were alleged to be "commies" had the sympathy of many liberals, in the entertainment industry and academia. No one appears to have any sympathy for the likes of Ernst Zundel, except his fellow historical revisionists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

________________________________-

Keep in mind that entire families were ruined by the "Hollywood black list". Writers could no longer work, some killed themselves. Their crime? Often marching or being in some way associated with a peace movement!!

Woody Allen did a wonderful movie about 30 years ago on this outrageous historical "event". I believe it was called "The Front". See it.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Terry Mauro]

The analogy you made to McCarthyism was right on; if you look at the way "holocaust deniers" are dealt with, you will find the same kind of name-calling and association by guilt. Just replace "commie," "pinko," "red" and "fellow traveler" with "holocaust denier,""anti-semite,""hater" and "neo-nazi."

The situation with regards to muslims in the U.K. is certainly no better in the U.S. Look at  Guantanimo Bay! But we are at "war," one with no apparent end in sight, and so everyone named Mohammed or Nasser is a potential member of Al Queda. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But these are not legitimate analogies and do not stand up to rational comparison.

Neo Nazis are not "identified" and dealt with in the same way as the victims of McCarthyism were. .

Young Muslims banged up without charge in inhuman conditions by a repulsive Whitehouse regime have absolutely nothing in common with anti semitic historians getting into trouble with the law in Canada or elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Andy,

What alleged "commie" or "pinko" was ever dealt with as harshly as Ernst Zundel has been dealt with? A Hollywood blacklist is one thing; solitary confinement is another. This doesn't minimize what many liberals went through in the 1950s, but at least most of those who were alleged to be "commies" had the sympathy of many liberals, in the entertainment industry and academia. No one appears to have any sympathy for the likes of Ernst Zundel, except his fellow historical revisionists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

________________________________-

Keep in mind that entire families were ruined by the "Hollywood black list". Writers could no longer work, some killed themselves. Their crime? Often marching or being in some way associated with a peace movement!!

Woody Allen did a wonderful movie about 30 years ago on this outrageous historical "event". I believe it was called "The Front". See it.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well then, we'll just have to continue marching our little butts off and continue our peaceful little protests, in order that the same McCarthy-ite mindset never gets to take another foothold in the American consciousness again, now won't we?

I don't know about you, but I've been marching and protesting since I was 19 years old. In fact, it's seems to have been a regular fixture or process involved in, the coming of age to the maturation of, my life for the last 35 - 40 years. I don't intend to back down any time soon, either.

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Ter:

I don't know what links you are asking about that I referred to..? I only posted that one site, and it has links at the bottom of the page..that relates to both sides if I recall correctly.... .If interested go to Google, you shall be there for many hours...Here is one that shows his photo and has a selection of documents...and articles you may be interested in...it may have been posted already??

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

He has not been deported as it takes a very long time, years it seems for that process to be completed here, not like in many other countrys where people are simply picked up and put on an airlines a few weeks, days or hours whatever and the process is completed...rather quickly....at times...

I agree that should be done, and then whatever the German Gov. has in the way of proceedings will be completed and perhaps all can be concluded...and.. ended.

I understand his right to freedom of speech, as I recognize that as a right of all....though even in your country, in the States,there have been many cases, and proceedings taken upon people who are also using that right to perhaps bend and or break your laws, much on Google in that regard...

But I also see what appears to me, that when I also use that same Freedom of Speech, and state my opinion....I am labeled by some, they seem not to practice what they seem to want to preach, as their FOS and right to disagree with mine is to be accepted....and at the same time stand up for his right to such......but also put down mine and label me as such and such when I state my opinion......Confusing...... yes....wrong, well I think so, for one....

But then again we see every day where people say one thing in an email and another on an open Forum, about so and so, or whatever , so why should I be confused.....

Later Ter......B

[Terry Mauro]

Hi Ter:

    I don't know what links you are asking about that I referred to..? I only posted that one site, and it has links at the bottom of the page..that relates to both sides if I recall correctly.... .If interested go to Google, you shall be there for many hours...Here is one that shows his photo and has a selection of documents...and articles you may be interested in...it may have been posted already??

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

    He has not been deported as it takes a very long time, years it seems for that process to be completed here, not like in many other countrys where people are simply picked up and put on an airlines a few weeks, days or hours whatever and the process is completed...rather quickly....at times...

I agree that should be done, and then whatever the German Gov. has in the way of proceedings will be completed and perhaps all can be concluded...and.. ended.

I understand his right to freedom of speech, as I recognize that as a right of all....though even in your country, in the States,there have been many cases, and proceedings taken upon people who are also using that right to perhaps bend and or break your laws, much on Google in that regard...

But I also see what appears to me, that when I also use that same Freedom of Speech, and state my opinion....I am labeled by some, they seem not to practice what they seem to want to preach, as their FOS and right to disagree with mine is to be accepted....and at the same time stand up for his right to such......but also put down mine and label me as such and such when I state my opinion......Confusing...... yes....wrong, well I think so, for one....

But then again we see every day where people say one thing in an email and another on an open Forum, about so and so, or whatever , so why should I be confused.....  

Later Ter......B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting, Bern. Thanks. Especially the stuff from Skeptic.

[Don Jeffries]

Hi Ter:

    I don't know what links you are asking about that I referred to..? I only posted that one site, and it has links at the bottom of the page..that relates to both sides if I recall correctly.... .If interested go to Google, you shall be there for many hours...Here is one that shows his photo and has a selection of documents...and articles you may be interested in...it may have been posted already??

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

    He has not been deported as it takes a very long time, years it seems for that process to be completed here, not like in many other countrys where people are simply picked up and put on an airlines a few weeks, days or hours whatever and the process is completed...rather quickly....at times...

I agree that should be done, and then whatever the German Gov. has in the way of proceedings will be completed and perhaps all can be concluded...and.. ended.

I understand his right to freedom of speech, as I recognize that as a right of all....though even in your country, in the States,there have been many cases, and proceedings taken upon people who are also using that right to perhaps bend and or break your laws, much on Google in that regard...

But I also see what appears to me, that when I also use that same Freedom of Speech, and state my opinion....I am labeled by some, they seem not to practice what they seem to want to preach, as their FOS and right to disagree with mine is to be accepted....and at the same time stand up for his right to such......but also put down mine and label me as such and such when I state my opinion......Confusing...... yes....wrong, well I think so, for one....

But then again we see every day where people say one thing in an email and another on an open Forum, about so and so, or whatever , so why should I be confused.....  

Later Ter......B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bernice,

I hope you don't think I would ever advocate restricting your right to free speech; if I'm defending Ernst Zundel's rights, I certainly would defend yours!

I'm not sure what you mean about deporting Zundel to Germany. I believe he is a Canadian citizen. He was abducted (and that's really the only appropriate word for it) from Tennessee (had moved from Canada to escape the thought police, I guess) a few years back, and taken to Canada, where he has remained, in solitary confinement, for two years.

We in the U.S. should certainly be wary about deporting those we think are criminals of some kind. Remember the case of John Demjanjuk, a Cleveland auto worker, who had been a model member of his community for decades, before being accused by the Office of Special Investigations of being "Ivan the Terrible," responsible for the deaths of thousands in the Treblinka concentration camp. After going through a great ordeal (all of the supposed "criminals" arrested and deported by the OSI are, due to the events in question, very elderly; actually Demjanjuk was one of the younger defendants, but still not a young man), he was tried in Israel and convicted. However, showing that they were more fair and impartial than their counterparts in the U.S.A., the Israeli Supreme Court overturned the conviction and admitted what his supporters had known all along; that there was no evidence he was "Ivan the Terrible." I haven't read about Demjanjuk for many years, and am not sure if he's even still alive (he'd have to be pretty old). I do know that our government, led by the OSI, did not want him allowed back in this country, even after the Israeli Supreme Court had overturned the verdict and no one in Israel had any interest left in trying to prosecute him. Anyhow, his tragic case is another example of our government losing all sense of fairness and justice when it comes to those labeled as "nazis." Hopefully, Ernst Zundel will eventually fare better.

[Terry Mauro]

Hi Ter:

     I don't know what links you are asking about that I referred to..? I only posted that one site, and it has links at the bottom of the page..that relates to both sides if I recall correctly.... .If interested go to Google, you shall be there for many hours...Here is one that shows his photo and has a selection of documents...and articles you may be interested in...it may have been posted already??

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

    He has not been deported as it takes a very long time, years it seems for that process to be completed here, not like in many other countrys where people are simply picked up and put on an airlines a few weeks, days or hours whatever and the process is completed...rather quickly....at times...

I agree that should be done, and then whatever the German Gov. has in the way of proceedings will be completed and perhaps all can be concluded...and.. ended.

I understand his right to freedom of speech, as I recognize that as a right of all....though even in your country, in the States,there have been many cases, and proceedings taken upon people who are also using that right to perhaps bend and or break your laws, much on Google in that regard...

But I also see what appears to me, that when I also use that same Freedom of Speech, and state my opinion....I am labeled by some, they seem not to practice what they seem to want to preach, as their FOS and right to disagree with mine is to be accepted....and at the same time stand up for his right to such......but also put down mine and label me as such and such when I state my opinion......Confusing...... yes....wrong, well I think so, for one....

But then again we see every day where people say one thing in an email and another on an open Forum, about so and so, or whatever , so why should I be confused.....  

Later Ter......B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bernice,

I hope you don't think I would ever advocate restricting your right to free speech; if I'm defending Ernst Zundel's rights, I certainly would defend yours!

I'm not sure what you mean about deporting Zundel to Germany. I believe he is a Canadian citizen. He was abducted (and that's really the only appropriate word for it) from Tennessee (had moved from Canada to escape the thought police, I guess) a few years back, and taken to Canada, where he has remained, in solitary confinement, for two years.

We in the U.S. should certainly be wary about deporting those we think are criminals of some kind. Remember the case of John Demjanjuk, a Cleveland auto worker, who had been a model member of his community for decades, before being accused by the Office of Special Investigations of being "Ivan the Terrible," responsible for the deaths of thousands in the Treblinka concentration camp. After going through a great ordeal (all of the supposed "criminals" arrested and deported by the OSI are, due to the events in question, very elderly; actually Demjanjuk was one of the younger defendants, but still not a young man), he was tried in Israel and convicted. However, showing that they were more fair and impartial than their counterparts in the U.S.A., the Israeli Supreme Court overturned the conviction and admitted what his supporters had known all along; that there was no evidence he was "Ivan the Terrible." I haven't read about Demjanjuk for many years, and am not sure if he's even still alive (he'd have to be pretty old). I do know that our government, led by the OSI, did not want him allowed back in this country, even after the Israeli Supreme Court had overturned the verdict and no one in Israel had any interest left in trying to prosecute him. Anyhow, his tragic case is another example of our government losing all sense of fairness and justice when it comes to those labeled as "nazis." Hopefully, Ernst Zundel will eventually fare better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We in the U.S. should certainly be wary about deporting those we think are criminals of some kind. Remember the case of John Demjanjuk, a Cleveland auto worker, who had been a model member of his community for decades, before being accused by the Office of Special Investigations of being "Ivan the Terrible," responsible for the deaths of thousands in the Treblinka concentration camp. After going through a great ordeal (all of the supposed "criminals" arrested and deported by the OSI are, due to the events in question, very elderly; actually Demjanjuk was one of the younger defendants, but still not a young man), he was tried in Israel and convicted. However, showing that they were more fair and impartial than their counterparts in the U.S.A., the Israeli Supreme Court overturned the conviction and admitted what his supporters had known all along; that there was no evidence he was "Ivan the Terrible." I haven't read about Demjanjuk for many years, and am not sure if he's even still alive (he'd have to be pretty old). I do know that our government, led by the OSI, did not want him allowed back in this country, even after the Israeli Supreme Court had overturned the verdict and no one in Israel had any interest left in trying to prosecute him. Anyhow, his tragic case is another example of our government losing all sense of fairness and justice when it comes to those labeled as "nazis." Hopefully, Ernst Zundel will eventually fare better.

I totally forgot about Demjanjuk's plight, and only remember reading about his extradition to Israel to stand trial. I'm sure the news of his conviction being overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court was conveniently buried somewhere on the backt pages of the API/UPI news editions, as this would be considered less news worthy than the sensationalistic banner headlines of his original capture and deportation.

As far as my remark about Zundel being deported to Germany, I somehow got the idea that he was a German ex-patriate, who settled in Canada, later gaining citizenship. Sorry, my mistake. I still stand by my original convictions concerning this sentence being taken to the extreme, though. Compared to our own George Lincoln Rockwell, Zundel seems tame, but that's only my humble opinion.

BTW, while I was residing in Orange County, in the early 90's, I supported the ACLU, and held a subscription to The Spotlight, simultaneously for about five years. If it hadn't been for The Spotlight, I never would have found Col. Prouty.

Edited February 8, 2005 by Terry Mauro

[Guest David L Sharp]

Bernice,

I hope you don't think I would ever advocate restricting your right to free speech; if I'm defending Ernst Zundel's rights, I certainly would defend yours!

I'm not sure what you mean about deporting Zundel to Germany. I believe he is a Canadian citizen. He was abducted (and that's really the only appropriate word for it) from Tennessee (had moved from Canada to escape the thought police, I guess) a few years back, and taken to Canada, where he has remained, in solitary confinement, for two years.

We in the U.S. should certainly be wary about deporting those we think are criminals of some kind. Remember the case of John Demjanjuk, a Cleveland auto worker, who had been a model member of his community for decades, before being accused by the Office of Special Investigations of being "Ivan the Terrible," responsible for the deaths of thousands in the Treblinka concentration camp. After going through a great ordeal (all of the supposed "criminals" arrested and deported by the OSI are, due to the events in question, very elderly; actually Demjanjuk was one of the younger defendants, but still not a young man), he was tried in Israel and convicted. However, showing that they were more fair and impartial than their counterparts in the U.S.A., the Israeli Supreme Court overturned the conviction and admitted what his supporters had known all along; that there was no evidence he was "Ivan the Terrible." I haven't read about Demjanjuk for many years, and am not sure if he's even still alive (he'd have to be pretty old). I do know that our government, led by the OSI, did not want him allowed back in this country, even after the Israeli Supreme Court had overturned the verdict and no one in Israel had any interest left in trying to prosecute him. Anyhow, his tragic case is another example of our government losing all sense of fairness and justice when it comes to those labeled as "nazis." Hopefully, Ernst Zundel will eventually fare better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting debate you guys are having--Zundel, Demjanjuk. Impressive.

I'm just checking to see if my posts are getting past the moderators these days. They had stopped posting anything I submitted, so I stopped trying.

Salvador Astucia

[Don Jeffries]

I totally forgot about Demjanjuk's plight, and only remember reading about his extradition to Israel to stand trial. I'm sure the news of his conviction being overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court was conveniently buried somewhere on the backt pages of the API/UPI news editions, as this would be considered less news worthy than the sensationalistic banner headlines of his original capture and deportation.

As far as my remark about Zundel being deported to Germany, I somehow got the idea that he was a German ex-patriate, who settled in Canada, later gaining citizenship. Sorry, my mistake. I still stand by my original convictions concerning this sentence being taken to the extreme, though. Compared to our own George Lincoln Rockwell, Zundel seems tame, but that's only my humble opinion.

BTW, while I was residing in Orange County, in the early 90's, I supported the ACLU, and held a subscription to The Spotlight, simultaneously for about five years. If it hadn't been for The Spotlight, I never would have found Col. Prouty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terry,

Right on! It's great to know another ex-Spotlight subscriber! We sound like kindred spirits; too many people get caught up in the "left" and "right" labels. That little newspaper was very influential in my thinking, and I still consider myself a populist, probably because they published so much stuff about the history of populism.

[Guest]

I'm just checking to see if my posts are getting past the moderators these days. They had stopped posting anything I submitted, so I stopped trying.

Salvador Astucia

The truth is that Salvador has been somewhat reticent since his recent "outing"