A few photodigitally enhanced Badgeman photos

[Alan Healy]

.....

The middle of the three appears to me, on an overhead plot, to be where he could be behind the wall and is closest to a location for comparison with 'Arnold'. With 'Arnold' slightly behind this figure, the sizes look ok to me. (red)

In blue is a comparison with the suggested bm figure and Tony in Bills photo where Tony is behind the fence, again sizes seem to be ok.

John,

please show us what you used as an overhead view for your plotting.

Also, I'm not entirely sure on the method you use to determine your distances from camera but I obviously do not doubt it is pretty accurate.

***

I too had a little fling last year with BM being behind the wall because there is evidence in the NIX film that coincides with the timing of this flash we see(although the positioning is another matter).

Anyway, what told me that BM was not behind the wall was the absolute assurance from one of those that first found him that, as soon as they went to the Plaza to check it out, they immeadiatly noticed that this figure was just too small to be behind the wall.

He must of been further back.

***

Maybe you could have a go at explaining, in your own words, how it is possible that we can see below the waistband of the Arnold figure in the blow-ups of Moorman5 without him being tight up against this three foot high wall or standing on a soap-box.

If you want to explain what you see as the differences in height between the BDM in Betzner & this Arnold figure in Moorman, I'd also be interested to hear it.

As far as I can determine from the small pieces of evidence that were captured on film, the pathway & the grassy area between it & the wall were pretty level at around 3' from the ground to the top of the wall(this measurment comes from a '78 survey if I remember correctly).

Also a fairly recent eyeballing in DP from a respected researcher has Betzners camera very close to the same level as the top of the wall.

I am also pretty certain that the "sloping off" of the soil at the very corner of the wall(see image) was not there in '63.

Anyone who has footage of the SS reconstruction will see that the filming from behind the wall captures a brief glimse of the ground, it is flat.

This was taken by Groden around 1980 I think.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

Bill?

Are you feeling okay?

I was asking about where this image came from, nothing else.

Why can't you provide me with a simple answer like you gave Eugene?

Please try again.

Where did you find this Betzner image, a novelty shop?

I found it in your two framed GIF.

You were comparing it with what is obviously a blow-up of Moorman5 but I don't recognise the source of this frame, it certainly isn't any Betzner3 I've seen(& I've seen some crappy ones but this takes the biscuit).

Won't you help us pin it down like you did for Eugene?

Alan

Carpenter/Joiner

[Ron Ecker]

Bill,

Here is BDM:

You believe this to be Arnold, standing straight up and facing eastward, visible approximately from his waist up. Correct?

His approximate waist extends from the dark area on the left beneath the sunspots, to the dark area on the right that comprises the sitting "dog's" rear end. IMO that is too much waist (whether in Willis's photo or Betzner's).

The image makes sense if it is someone leaning over on the wall, thus the wide look, or if it is actually two people. It doesn't make sense to me as Arnold or anyone of similar size standing straight up.

Also if this is someone standing straight up, the head should align with the middle of the waist or the navel. BDM's head does not.

I don't know what it is and I wish it wasn't there. But I don't think it's Arnold.

Ron

Edited March 1, 2006 by Ron Ecker

[Bill Miller]

Where did you find this Betzner image, a novelty shop?

I found it in your two framed GIF.

You were comparing it with what is obviously a blow-up of Moorman5 but I don't recognise the source of this frame, it certainly isn't any Betzner3 I've seen(& I've seen some crappy ones but this takes the biscuit).

Won't you help us pin it down like you did for Eugene?

Alan

Alan, you are looking at a composite made up of two transparency images overlaid into one. The animation that image came from was a fade-in illustration showing the shade line similarities and this is why the shade on the BDM is faded in tone. I have posted all the gifs I have ever made - go look for them if you didn't bother to save them. We have been through all this before on Lancer's forum and I walked you step by step through the images I created and why they were made. I did the same sort of thing when I created the image below so to compare my photo with Moorman's ... (see below)

The BDM is so far away from the camera in Betzner's photo and because it is a B&W photo with very limited color tones - I wondered if parts of the figure over the wall was blended into the background, thus hiding his true entire outline, I then decided to concentrate on that shade line passing over both individuals.

Now I see that Ron is having trouble understanding the similarities between the BDM and Arnold in Moorman's photo. While I have said this before, maybe I should remind you guys of something that you are refusing to consider ... For the BDM not to be the same person in the Moorman photo there has to be a switch that took place, but Groden points out in his book that this individual can be seen in one of the assassination films just over the south bend in the wall at a time before the kill shot to JFK was fired. This closes the window considerably for this switch to have taken place. Arnold didn't say he ran over and took another persons spot at the wall - Yarborough didn't say he saw such an event take place - and didn't Don Roberdeau once post a statement from Rosemary Willis where she said she too had seen an individual standing over the wall. So unless you people can explain away this siwtch that would have needed to take place in about three seconds or so, then you might want to consider this person in each photo being one and the same individual. I have pointed out what those similarities are and you can either see them or you can't. There can only be two choices ...

1) BDM in Betzner and Willis is not the same person in Moorman, thus a switch had to have taken place or -

2) It is the same individual in all three photos and the similarities I have pointed out have merit.

Bill

Edited March 1, 2006 by Bill Miller

[John Dolva]

Alan, on this overhead view is a circle centered on moorman. The group of three on the steps if placed near the wall would, it seems to me, have the middle guy behind the wall.

His general size seems to me to be roughly the same as 'Arnold'.

Now, I've been going along on this accepting that people can see people there and that if there were people there I've been trying to figure out what size they should be. I find myself in agreement with Bill and Jack.

What I haven't said is whether I actually see anything more than 'blobs' of light and dark. The truth is I don't. That's all I see. However, arguments sound reasonable and those who have studied far better images than I have, and studied this far longer, in more detail, see figures there.

I find Ron's questions quite reasonable as they seem to be aimed at a 'ok, lets say there is a figure there, then what if, or why is/isn't... etc. That's more how I see it.

Could you elaborate more on the waistband question, please? Perhaps an error margin consideration is relevant. For me these are possibly human shaped blobs with a blurry perimeter.

Edited March 1, 2006 by John Dolva

[Tim Carroll]

For the BDM not to be the same person in the Moorman photo there has to be a switch that took place, but Groden points out in his book that this individual can be seen in one of the assassination films just over the south bend in the wall at a time before the kill shot to JFK was fired.... There can only be two choices ...

1) BDM in Betzner and Willis is not the same person in Moorman, thus a switch had to have taken place or -

2) It is the same individual in all three photos and the similarities I have pointed out have merit.

The third possibility is that it isn't a person seen at the corner of the wall in Moorman. As for the above statement regarding Groden's position, it seems to imply that he believes BDM and Arnold to be one and the same. I'm not sure if Bill really intends to be making that claim. When I asked Groden what he thought happened to BDM between Willis and Moorman, he succinctly replied: "He moved."

T.C.

[Alan Healy]

John,

yes sure, it was clear to me from your previous posts that you haven't been convinced of the true nature of these shapes above the wall in Moorman, I'm sorry if you got the idea from my post that I'd thought you had.

I too am mearly going along with the idea that there is a man up there filming in an overseas uniform.

I actually don't believe in Arnolds story but I can certainly see why Jack, Gary & Bill are convinced that these shapes & shadows above the wall look just like him.

I personally believe that this Arnold interpretation is actually hiding what is really there.

I am sure if you look again at the images above posted by Jack, that it is obvious we can see an inch or two below this "mans" waistband.

Surely if one had the height of the wall on that North side(lets say three foot for arguments sake) & you could find out just how much lower than the top of the wall Marys camera lense was, couldn't estimate how close this "man" would have to be to the wall?

As a laymen, I'd say if he is standing on the ground then it can only mean one thing, he as about as close to the wall as he could get.

As for how high this "man" has his pants pulled up, I'm sure anyone can judge from the rest of his upper body that he has them in "the normal position"(ie. definitely below his navel).

Now when you compare what is seen of the "man" to what is seen of BDM in Betzner, you will note that instead of seeing more of this figure than what Mary saw of "Arnold" we actually see less & this dispite the fact of Betzners camera being level with the top of the wall.

I'd just like to hear your thoughts on these height issues if you would.

I won't apologise for going off-topic from BM because this is still pretty close to the endless debate over these shapes above the wall in Moorman5.

Alan

[Bill Miller]

The third possibility is that it isn't a person seen at the corner of the wall in Moorman. As for the above statement regarding Groden's position, it seems to imply that he believes BDM and Arnold to be one and the same. I'm not sure if Bill really intends to be making that claim. When I asked Groden what he thought happened to BDM between Willis and Moorman, he succinctly replied: "He moved."

T.C.

As I said before, Groden mentions in his book that the light colored clothing of someone can be seen over the south edge of the wall in one of the assassination films. The color of the clothing matches that of what Arnold would have worn.

I can also tell you that Groden said to me point blank that he believs the person in the Betzner and Willis photo is the same person seen in the Moorman photograph. Robert and I went over this very carefully together on the knoll. While I have posted this information before, I will say it once again .... Robert and I took his best color Nix film copy to the lab this past year and we could see this person over the wall in motion moving to his left after the kill shot to the President. This was consistent with the movement witnessed by Yarborough and reported by Gordon Arnold, so take it for what it is worth to you.

Bill Miller

JFK assassination researcher/investigator

[Bill Miller]

As a laymen, I'd say if he is standing on the ground then it can only mean one thing, he as about as close to the wall as he could get.

As for how high this "man" has his pants pulled up, I'm sure anyone can judge from the rest of his upper body that he has them in "the normal position"(ie. definitely below his navel).

Alan

Lets not forget that Arnold told Golz many years before the Badge Man work was ever done that he was standing on a mound of dirt. Did Gordon mean that to be a high spot covered with grass or a freshly dug mound - I cannot say. It would however explain why we see his belt line. If one wishes to get an idea how servicemen wore their uniforms in the 60's ... watch an episode of Gomer Pyle and see how he and his buddies wore their clothes.

One other thing .... a few post back, Alan mentioned the ground near the south bend in the wall and how he believed that it didn't slope in 63 as it did in the photo of Gary Shaw taken by Robert Groden. I would like to know where Alan got his information because I have spoken to Gary Mack, historian at the 6th floor museum, and Gary told me that he never recalls the ground being any different there until that area was eventually covered over with concrete years later. The reason for the slope as Gary explained was for run-off purposes when it rained.

Bill

[John Dolva]

OK, Alan,

My understanding is that there is according to Bill, a figure near the wall but not up against it, which is being called Arnold. And there is a figure called BM by Jack who is just behind the fence.

Within a choosen error margin range, based on the general blurred images available, I think it's posssible to say that if there are persons there of average sizes then the suggested figures would fall within the range. I also think that if better quality images were available the error margin could decrease. It is possible that the location of these people would have to be revised and that could place them in different locations, most likely further away.

I have no way of knowing exactly where the ground is behind the wall, the estimates I made are just that, estimates.

I must seem to be dodging a question here. But what you say is reasonable. The timing of the photo's and movement of persons could account for differences perhaps. I wish I had the material that these images were derived from. I don't, and what I do have will not allow me to see any such detail.

I have done an anaslysis of the Zippo moorman Jack posted before, and based on it I would't say there are persons there.

A 'gross' analysis of mine that simply looks at groups of data and compares them to surrounding groups finds that there is one grouping that seems to be a figure. There seems to me to be a probable background grouping that extends across the area suggested for BM and BDM(arnold).

I hope I'm interpreting the locations and so on of the suggested persons concerned correctly.

In the lower left image no figures are deliberately outlined. But one blob seems to me to be outlining itself in the way it is different. If I choose to speculate what this person was doing I'd say standing just behind the wall holding a camera.

[Tim Carroll]

Robert and I took his best color Nix film copy to the lab this past year and we could see this person over the wall in motion moving to his left after the kill shot to the President. This was consistent with the movement witnessed by Yarborough and reported by Gordon Arnold, so take it for what it is worth to you.

If, according to Bill, Groden believes BDM was seen still standing in Moorman at Zf-315 in the purported Arnold/BDM location, and that he hadn't "moved," as Groden said to me, how can it have been Arnold "moving to his left after the kill shot" when he had supposedly "hit the dirt?" Which part is "consistent with the movement witnessed by Yarborough and reported by Arnold," the part when he "hit the dirt" or the part when he was "moving to his left"? Did he crawl to his left or to the camera's left?

T.C.

[Bill Miller]

If, according to Bill, Groden believes BDM was seen still standing in Moorman at Zf-315 in the purported Arnold/BDM location, and that he hadn't "moved," as Groden said to me, how can it have been Arnold "moving to his left after the kill shot" when he had supposedly "hit the dirt?" Which part is "consistent with the movement witnessed by Yarborough and reported by Arnold," the part when he "hit the dirt" or the part when he was "moving to his left"? Did he crawl to his left or to the camera's left?

T.C.

Tim .... use a little sense. Arnold didn't fall straight down like the World Trade Center fell. Instead he seems to have dropped his arm and turned to his left, which must have been the beginning of his diving to the ground as Yarborough described. While this person was still in deep shadow in Groden's alleged first generation copy of the Nix film, he was still visible to the point that Robert, myself, Royce Bierma, and the lab tech saw the leftward movement. The movement was quick and sudden .... we could not follow him but for a brief moment. We looped it over and over under magnification. Let's keep in mind that it was Yarborough who read about the serviceman on the knoll in Earl Golz article and it was the Senator who called Earl to confirm Arnold being right where he said he was. Yarborough said in TMWKK series that when the man dove to the ground he knew he was seeing a man who has had his infantry training. That tells me that Yarborough saw a serviceman who had been given his infantry training already. The figure in the Badge Man images is wearing what is called a "Garrison Cap", which is what Arnold wore in 1963. Arnold's then girlfriend told Turner and his assistant producer that Gordon had told his family about his experience on the knoll immediately after the assassination.

Bill

Edited March 2, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Tim Carroll]

If, according to Bill, Groden believes BDM was seen still standing in Moorman at Zf-315 in the purported Arnold/BDM location, and that he hadn't "moved," as Groden said to me, how can it have been Arnold "moving to his left after the kill shot" when he had supposedly "hit the dirt?" Which part is "consistent with the movement witnessed by Yarborough and reported by Arnold," the part when he "hit the dirt" or the part when he was "moving to his left"? Did he crawl to his left or to the camera's left?

Tim .... use a little sense.

Bill, lose the condescending attitude; it's definitely not justified.

Arnold didn't fall straight down like the World Trade Center fell. Instead he seems to have dropped his arm and turned to his left, which must have been the beginning of his diving to the ground as Yarborough described.

So you are saying that Arnold moved to his left (camera right), behind the retaining wall, as part of his dive to the ground. But are you also meaning to say that Bob Groden agrees with you that BDM, seen in Willis and Betzer, was Gordon Arnold? And that Yarborough could see Arnold dive to the ground from his location at street level east on Elm St with the retaining wall in the way? And also that Arnold heard "several other shots" after hitting the dirt following a shot from Badge Man at Zf-315? BTW, these are simple, yes or no questions.

Tim

[Bill Miller]

"Bill, lose the condescending attitude; it's definitely not justified."

Yeh right, Tim. It was just as justified as "Which part is "consistent with the movement witnessed by Yarborough and reported by Arnold," the part when he "hit the dirt" or the part when he was "moving to his left"? Did he crawl to his left or to the camera's left?

"So you are saying that Arnold moved to his left (camera right), behind the retaining wall, as part of his dive to the ground. But are you also meaning to say that Bob Groden agrees with you that BDM, seen in Willis and Betzer, was Gordon Arnold?"

That is what I am saying. I have attached an email between Robert and I below ....

Subject: RE: Answer me this question, Robert .........

Date: 3/1/2006 10:28:00 PM Pacific Standard Time

From: robertg1@airmail.net

Reply To:

To: IMSJLE@aol.com

CC:

BCC:

Sent on:

Probably the late 1970s. Perhaps 1978.

RG

-----Original Message-----

From: IMSJLE@aol.com [mailto:IMSJLE@aol.com]

Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:05 PM

To: RobertG1@airmail.net

Subject: Answer me this question, Robert .........

Robert,

Recall back to when we discussed the connection between the Arnold figure in the Moorman photo and the Black Dog Man .... at that time you told me that you had always thought that those two figures were one in the same person. Can you remember how far back you had first made that connection?

Bill

"And that Yarborough could see Arnold dive to the ground from his location at street level east on Elm St with the retaining wall in the way?"

Yes, we know that people cannot see through concrete walls, but I believe that Yarborough applied a little common sense and assumed that as Arnold dove and went out of sight behind the wall that he did hit the ground.

"And also that Arnold heard "several other shots" after hitting the dirt following a shot from Badge Man at Zf-315? "

Yes, I believe Arnold said he thought he heard another shot or reports coming from back behind him.

Bill

[Ron Ecker]

I've never been under fire, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But it seems to me that if someone fired a shot from behind you over your left shoulder, you would instinctively dive to your right, thus moving away from the shooter as well as getting lower, instead of diving to your left, getting lower but also putting yourself right under the shooter, the easier for him to take you out too if he wants to.

That's all.