The Odio Incident

[Tim Gratz]

I think so but I think I recall there was some controversy about his testimony. I assume it is easily researched.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Robert wrote (in part):

To date, we still don't even know with certainty that the man who appeared on Ms. Odio's doorstep was Oswald.

According to Professor Mellen, Murgado told her in June of this year that he was at Odio's door, with Oswald.

For all your disparaging comments, Robert, I think the Forum members will remember that I am the first person to publicize (both here on the Forum and in "Solares Hill", the identities of Angel and Leopoldo. My source, of course, was Gerry Hemming, another individual you appear, for whatever reason, very anxious to deprecate.

Yes, you're the first person to do Hemming's latest bidding. That and a dollar will buy you a coffee. Let us assume that Hemming knew the IDs of L&A all along. Why did he wait until Mellen's book was being printed to 'scoop' her on this point? Surely it wasn't life-threatening to Hemming to put this into the public domain at any prior point in the past 40-plus years? This is merely the latest instance in which Hemming has decided to insinuate himself into an historical circumstance, and claim knowledge that may or may not be true. Your uncritical acceptance of whatever he utters is very useful to him in this.

Let's have a quick look back at what Hemming told Weberman some years back:

"You want the real story behind the Odio incident? She was a suspected Castro agent. Her father was a basically a hostage in a Cuban prison who plotted against Castro with Veciana. You know why you are not given a security clearance if you have relatives behind the Iron Curtain? She's considered a Socialist, so she's on the wrong side. To reinforce that, there's a potential that she's being blackmailed and she's working as a Castro agent..... I dealt with Manolo Ray. We could link up this dude with somebody that's already in the files. HUNT hated him for running the resistance against Batista. HUNT'S on Batista's side. This is the enemy, people who could have killed him while he was in Havana. They were killing people. Blowing up the sewer system and the telephone system. That XXXXed up his party routine. He probably felt insecure going to the local whorehouse. I know one of the guys who took OSWALD to Sylvia Odio. This was a setup to dirty-up OSWALD with suspected Castro agent Sylvia Odio. They'd build a file on her. Either they are building this guy's credibility to go kill Castro, or they've abandoned that, and said, 'XXXX that, we have to make this guy look like a Castro agent and have him do something serious in this country that's provocative.'"

According to Hemming's rather odd logic, it was necessary to taint Oswald with Ms. Odio, a purported Castro agent - despite the fact that her family had lost its holdings to Castro, that her father was in Castro's prison and her entire family worked to overthrow Castro by supporting the least fascist alternative, Manolo Ray. Yet this is the infallible source whose every utterance you believe to be gospel? Please, dear boy, do get a grip. It was not Oswald being tainted by Odio, but Odio's group JURE being tainted by Oswald prior to his date with infamy.

And in my opinion this may be one of the most important developments in the case in several years. As you knmow, the mystery of who were the men at Odio's door has puzzled assassination researchers for over forty years. We do not yet know what information may be revealed as a result.

Given the long legacy of lies, distortions and logical contortions that have masqueraded as stunning new revelations over the past four decades, you seem far more hopeful than that history would justify. Whatever fear for his safety kept Hemming from speaking up for the past 40-ish years seems to have evaporated with the knowledge that an academic woman is brave enough to break this news to the world. 'Tis an oddly poetic twist that a man's man who refers to his detractors as "girls" has only located his gumption when a mere slip of a woman is about to demonstrate the very bravery he has declined to exemplify in the past.

I assume you were well-read enough to know that after the Interpen people were released from the Monroe County (Key West) jail and traveled to Miami Lee Harvey Oswald approached one of Hemming's men. Shortly thereafter he called in to the Allen Courtney radio show when Hemming and Davis were appearing on the show, again asking to involve himself with Hemming's organization.

I have also studied the case enough to know other things:

Sturgis and the Buchanan brothers made similar claims that LHO had tried to infiltrate their virile sounding International Anti-Communist Brigade, even writing articles on the topic in the Florida press. When asked by the FBI about this, Sturgis back-tracked and called it mere "speculation." You can file Hemming's identical claims under an identical heading.

John Martino and Nathaniel Weyl both depicted Oswald as a Castro agent bent upon infiltrating the patriotic anti-Castro movement on El Jefe's behalf. Prior to his death, Martino recanted to a Newsday reporter and admitted he had spread lies about Oswald to implicate him as a Castro agent.

Despite claims by all of the above, including your newest publicity client, it is not possible for Oswald to have been in Florida to make the purported approaches, at the times reported, due to his being demonstrably elsewhere at the time. This may suggest impersonation, but the likelier explanation is that you're being fed fantasy falsely labelled as fact.

I will comment on other parts of your post later.

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[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Professor Mellen wrote (in the article published in last Friday's "Solares Hill":

Bobby discovered that Oswald was working for the FBI, a fact brought to the attention of the Warren Commission and confirmed for the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s by an FBI employee, William Walter.

Can someone bring me "up to speed" on William Walter?  Was he a credible witness?

The construction of Dr. Mellen's sentence leaves it possible for one to draw two different inferences.  Just to be clear, the "fact" drawn to the attention of the WC and HSCA was that Oswald worked for the Bureau; not that Bobby knew this "fact" about Oswald and the Bureau.

Everyone who knew Walter claimed he was credible.  None of his FBI colleagues could recall the teletype he referenced, though there are other indicators that a teletype similar to the one he testified about must have been issued.

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[Mark Knight]

As far as any official investigation, to date the treatment of the Odio incident has been odious.

[Ron Ecker]

As far as any official investigation, to date the treatment of the Odio incident has been odious.

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Or as the great yodeler Slim Whitman might sing, "Odio lady who?"

[Pat Speer]

As far as any official investigation, to date the treatment of the Odio incident has been odious.

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Or as the great yodeler Slim Whitman might sing, "Odio lady who?"

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That wacky poetry-lover, Ron! Always quoting Whitman...

[Gerry Hemming]

I think so but I think I recall there was some controversy about his testimony.  I assume it is easily researched.

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Tim:

I will repeat what I stated on the telephone yesterday, "...we are OFF THE RECORD as to what is being discussed !!"

Responding to the clown who questions my "scooping" Joan Mellen, and why didn't I "come forward" some 40 years ago ?? Sounds just like Kazahk Weberman, and; I am beginning to suspect that this is Weberman using an alias.

Go to his "Nodules" and read my response to his query about not "coming forth";

and I repeat: You don't want to know where on your anatomy I will do my "coming" !!

I took Joan Mellen to meet Angelo on June 27th this year; just as I took Russo to interview him years ago. Joan paid the expenses down to Miami, but my son and I got stuck with the costs returning north. Nevertheless, as Joan complained in an e-mail last month; If any "so-and-so" wants the inside story; then they can pony up their share of the travel and other expenses.

Now it gets very clear why certain professionals avoid forums !! Why should anybody expose themselves to having their "chains pulled" by complete amateurs ??

Joan Mellen has yet to completely resolve specific issues' specifically those which she intends to elaborate upon in more detail within her prospective tome. When she finally asks the correct questions, she will get the facts "Maam". There are others out their attempting to accomplish similar interviews, but I can assure you that they will fail.

I worked with Sylvia in Cuba. Long after both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee coverups, she stated, after her review of those documents purporting to be her "testimony" -- she bitterly denounced EVERYTHING contained therein as having been FALSIFIED.

Mrs. Connell was a longtime FBI informant, and one whom had been tasked to monitor; among others, the Odio sisters. I knew her husband, who divorced her after she snitched him out to the FBI. The last time we spoke was when he was running a "veterans" bar on West Flagler Street and 26th avenue in Miami [during 1965]. He had a lot to say about the "Odio Incident", primarily because he wanted to discover enough of the facts to "burn" his ex-wife !!

Mea culpa for not having called any of the current or past members of this forum some 40 years ago, or are you bitching because I didn't "drop-a-Dime" to Hoover, or one of LBJ's cohorts. Well kiddies, I kept my Kennedy Family intermediary up-to-date on most everything, especially after dealing with Garrison in N.O. during the Summer of 1967. My contact with Bobby ?? His name is Charles Bartlett, and he is still alive and well in Georgetown. He was the person who introduced "Jackie" to JFK at a dinner party at his home.

But don't expect that newspaperman to even answer the telephone -- girls !!

RFK spent large sums of money in his efforts in ultimately clarifying specific facts, and thereby resolved that his initial contemporaneous beliefs and suspicions were in total error. RFK "DID NOT" begin his inquiries until late 1965 !!

"Benny" de Torres was nowhere near Dealey Plaza. Moreover, the first instance of his being associated with the "investigation" of the JFK matter was via an Edward J. Epstein article in New Yorker Magazine, and wherein it was hinted that "Benny" has expended approximately 50% of Garrison's "Truth-or-Consequences" funds while "checking-out" the Miami Cubans !!

James: the person in the Seymour, Harber, "Benny" photo is none other than CIA Officer Joannides' principal D.R.E. contact -- Isidro "Chilo" Borjas.

I have no doubt that when more facts are exposed on this "Odio Incident", and hopefully by Joan Mellen ?? -- there will be the usual rants by the self-styled "critics" on this forum even then. John, I suspect you have some "damage control" artists amongst the membership !! Who are they "assisting" ?? I seriously doubt that they even know for certain. It is called "false-flag" recruitment -- Girls !!

John Martino met ALL of his Cuban contacts through me ONLY. As for his purported "confession" to John Cummings [then of NewsDay] -- Bullxxxx. I took over John's Central American import/export business, at his request, after his second committment to the cardiac unit at Cedars in Miami Beach. During the late 1960s, and into the mid 1970s, John ran his business from the Biltmore Hotel in Guatemala City -- where I joined him from time-to-time.

Due to compartmentalization, neither Angelo nor "Benny" ever had the full scope of exactly what they had been tasked to do, and moreover, had less knowledge of each other's moves doing that, and later operations.

"Benny" still is a pro-shooter, or facilitator, even today. However, nobody in their right mind would suspect that he was part of the "plot" -- especially

the "so-called" plot "formulated/discovered/uncovered" by the majority of wing-nutters I've encountered in my recent travels. As more than a few of the members have stated in their private e-mails to me: "....What a bunch of stupid assholes....they should get-a-life !!"

As a side-bar: I had to repeatedly twist John Cumming's arm in order that he might show even the slightest interest in the JFK matter. Bill Turner was of the same disinclination, and they, along with many others, wouldn't make ANY inquiries until they were fed inside scoop on other stories of "greater" interest. Even today, Don Bohning could give a rat's ass as to the JFK crap being spewed forth, and this is no doubt a result of his experiencing the less than adequate bona fides "brandished" by the "wing-nutter" groupings & "groupies".

I made no reference to the JFK matter to anybody of consequence until dealing with Garrison during 1967. During 1968, Harold Weizberg came to El Monte, California for a week of interviews, and it was through him that the Paul Coates TV Show producer demanded an interview. During that same short timespan, Bob Dornan & Maria Cole were prompted by Art Bell [all of Channel 9 TV, Los Angeles]to make inquiries, but we diverted them to some insider scoop on the Panthers, Ron Karenga's "US" organization, and the Brown Berets -- ALL of which entities had been created by MH/CHAOS Operators.

I will be speaking with Joan today, and if she asks the specific questions, then her book might eventually contain some more enlightenment for those of a serious nature. But it is not about to happen on this forum, that is: before she gets her chance to assemble the facts a bit more coherently !!

GPH

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[Tim Gratz]

According to Mr. Hemming, Bernardo deTorres was NOT a player in the JFK assassination. I know this goes against the "conventional wisdom" on this Forum, but I would like to see facts establishing that he was a conspirator.

I would note that I posted a few days ago:

Nor do I necessarily believe it has yet been established that deTorres was part of the plot.

Edited September 8, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

I think so but I think I recall there was some controversy about his testimony.  I assume it is easily researched.

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Tim:

I will repeat what I stated on the telephone yesterday, "...we are OFF THE RECORD as to what is being discussed !!"

Responding to the clown who questions my "scooping" Joan Mellen, and why didn't I "come forward" some 40 years ago ?? Sounds just like Kazahk Weberman, and; I am beginning to suspect that this is Weberman using an alias.

Go to his "Nodules" and read my response to his query about not "coming forth";

and I repeat: You don't want to know where on your anatomy I will do my "coming" !!

Since I am the "clown" in question, let me assure Mr. Hemming that I am not Weberman, don't look anything like Weberman, have never pored over Bob Dylan's trash, have never insisted that the three tramps were.... you get the picture. I also note that in this non-responsive reply, there is no rationale offered for not having identified either L nor A in decades gone by, only the vague implication that it might have led to harm befalling Hemming had he done so.

It's most interesting that a man who insists he was in the thick of various battles on so many different occasions, whose entire profile is built upon so much purported derring-do, was too frigthened by possible consequences to make known to the authorities what might have been helpful in resolving various JFK related mysteries. Given the wide variety of contacts Gerry had back in the day, and presumably still does, one wonders why he did not use a cutout or intermediary as a third party to float what he knew to authorities.

Given the great fear of personal harm that prevented Hemming from making the ID in past years, it is presumably highly dangerous knowledge. Then how and why did Gerry decide after all these years that now is the time to reveal the truth? Did the danger suddenly evaporate? Has some key person died, and hence there is no longer any great fear of reprisal?

It is a good general rule of thumb that when late-arriving witnesses make a grandiose claim, they be viewed with suspicion unless and until some type of confirmation for that claim can be established. This has been true of Judyth Baker, Ricky White, James Files, et al, and should be no less true in this instance.

I took Joan Mellen to meet Angelo on June 27th this year; just as I took Russo to interview him years ago. Joan paid the expenses down to Miami, but my son and I got stuck with the costs returning north. Nevertheless, as Joan complained in an e-mail last month; If any "so-and-so" wants the inside story; then they can pony up their share of the travel and other expenses.

Interesting. Presumably whatever Russo encountered in the course of his interview disinclined him to pursue this avenue. Perhaps Russo wasn't convinced that this story was genuine, or perhaps it didn't fit into Russo's own pre-conceptions.

Now it gets very clear why certain professionals avoid forums !! Why should anybody expose themselves to having their "chains pulled" by complete amateurs ??

As opposed to what? Having our cranks yanked by pros? Rather than complain with condescension, express high dudgeon about the peons who plague you, or dribble the story out piecemeal as it suits you, Gerry, you might find it far more helpful for your own credibility to merely tell the story. Don't rely upon others; find yourself a secure soapbox and write your book [half the members here would buy it, sight unseen, as you know] or sell your life story for big bucks to Oliver Stone or serialize it via any receptive periodical. Few people are better situated to strike such a deal, and then your tale would be on the record. Surely, this is far more efficient and satisfactory than taking others by the hand to meet your secret sources and contacts, and then hoping against hope that they get the story right, no?

Joan Mellen has yet to completely resolve specific issues' specifically those which she intends to elaborate upon in more detail within her prospective tome. When she finally asks the correct questions, she will get the facts "Maam". There are others out their attempting to accomplish similar interviews, but I can assure you that they will fail.

Rather than wait for Dr. Mellen to formulate the "correct questions," why don't you just supply them to her? If it's merely a question of connecting the dots, as you suggest, why do you seem so unconcerned about whether anyone will ever do it? Or is there some kind of price tag involved?

I worked with Sylvia in Cuba. Long after both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee coverups, she stated, after her review of those documents purporting to be her "testimony" -- she bitterly denounced EVERYTHING contained therein as having been FALSIFIED.

Mrs. Connell was a longtime FBI informant, and one whom had been tasked to monitor; among others, the Odio sisters. I knew her husband, who divorced her after she snitched him out to the FBI. The last time we spoke was when he was running a "veterans" bar on West Flagler Street and 26th avenue in Miami [during 1965]. He had a lot to say about the "Odio Incident", primarily because he wanted to discover enough of the facts to "burn" his ex-wife !!

Mea culpa for not having called any of the current or past members of this forum some 40 years ago, or are you bitching because I didn't "drop-a-Dime" to Hoover, or one of LBJ's cohorts. Well kiddies, I kept my Kennedy Family intermediary up-to-date on most everything, especially after dealing with Garrison in N.O. during the Summer of 1967. My contact with Bobby ?? His name is Charles Bartlett, and he is still alive and well in Georgetown. He was the person who introduced "Jackie" to JFK at a dinner party at his home.

But don't expect that newspaperman to even answer the telephone -- girls !!

Gerry, your prior three grafs are precisely why your story seems so questionable. Clearly, you had personal contact with the key players in the Odio incident, and know things worth sharing with the authorities. You also know men of Bartlett's calibre, which makes you well placed to share that information with the authorities, without implicating yourself or placing yourself in danger. My questions remain: why didn't you do so when it might have counted? And, what has changed so dramatically that it is no longer dangerous to do so now?

As we age, and grow less robust, we face our own mortality. I understand that you've not been enjoying the best of health, so you know precisely what I mean by this. Are you content to leave behind a fractured and indecipherable chronology of events, when you know you are singularly and uniquely situated to fill in the missing pieces and provide historical accuracy as your legacy?

RFK spent large sums of money in his efforts in ultimately clarifying specific facts, and thereby resolved that his initial contemporaneous beliefs and suspicions were in total error. RFK "DID NOT" begin his inquiries until late 1965 !!

"Benny" de Torres was nowhere near Dealey Plaza. Moreover, the first instance of his being associated with the "investigation" of the JFK matter was via an Edward J. Epstein article in New Yorker Magazine, and wherein it was hinted that "Benny" has expended approximately 50% of Garrison's "Truth-or-Consequences" funds while "checking-out" the Miami Cubans !!

James: the person in the Seymour, Harber, "Benny" photo is none other than CIA Officer Joannides' principal D.R.E. contact -- Isidro "Chilo" Borjas.

I have no doubt that when more facts are exposed on this "Odio Incident", and hopefully by Joan Mellen ?? -- there will be the usual rants by the self-styled "critics" on this forum even then. John, I suspect you have some "damage control" artists amongst the membership !! Who are they "assisting" ?? I seriously doubt that they even know for certain. It is called "false-flag" recruitment -- Girls !!

The only reason that confusion, "rants" and "damage control" and "false flag" nonsense exist is because those tasked with resolving these issues, haven't; those in a position to supply the missing vital pieces, haven't. Instead, we've had endless committees of inquiry that have resolved nothing; and a number of persons who claim to have key knowledge will claim to have knowledge, but refuse to share it. The irritant is not those who ask questions that they cannot themselves answer; it is those who claim to have the answers but won't provide them. If you would like to shut we "girls" up once and for all, Gerry, just do the righteous thing and place your knowledge into the history books where it belongs. That would be a fitting legacy for you to leave behind: Gerry Patrick Hemming, patriot in war and peace, who as one of his last acts did the right thing.

John Martino met ALL of his Cuban contacts through me ONLY. As for his purported "confession" to John Cummings [then of NewsDay] -- Bullxxxx. I took over John's Central American import/export business, at his request, after his second committment to the cardiac unit at Cedars in Miami Beach. During the late 1960s, and into the mid 1970s, John ran his business from the Biltmore Hotel in Guatemala City -- where I joined him from time-to-time.

Since Martino was in Cuba as early as 1956, which predates your own arrival on that scene significantly, there can be little doubt that Martino knew some interesting Cubans well prior to needing any introduction from you. That he "met ALL of his Cuban contacts through you ONLY" is a blanket assertion, but unsubstantiated by any evidence other than your own insistence. Ditto for your condemnation of the Cummings report, which dovetails entirely with what he also told Claasen/Klaasen. It is also odd that you would denounce as "Bullxxxx" what Cummings eventually begrudgingly divulged, for it might actually bolster suspect elements of your own story re: Oswald's attempts to infiltrate Interpen:

The last time he met reporter Cummings, John Martino made an astonishing claim. "It came out of the blue," Cummings recalled. "John told me he had himself met Oswald several weeks before the assassination, in Miami. He said an FBI agent named Connors asked him to come to a boat docked in Biscayne Bay, and introduced him to Oswald by name. The impression John got was that Oswald didn't know his ass from his elbow, didn't know what he was involved in. He thought the agent wanted him to meet Oswald because John was involved in anti-Communist activity, and Oswald was someone this agent was running."

I was not able to trace a Miami agent called Connors answering the description provided by Cummings. FBI files show Martino did have contacts after the assassination with an agent named James J. O'Connor, whom I tracked down in retirement. "John Martino?" he said. "I'm afraid all I could tell you is, yes, the name rings a bell.... I don't recall that he was a regular contact." O'Connor said he cannot recall whether he was in touch with Martino before the assassination. He said he never met Oswald at any time.

Cummings, an investigative reporter for more than thirty years, did not think the Martino allegation was just a crook's slur against a law enforcement officer. "I believed Martino," he said. "It came across, just before he died, like a confessional. I was told that Connors, the agent he named, was in Counterlntelligence."

Several pages that refer to Martino have been withdrawn from the Kennedy assassination collection at the National Archives, at the insistence of the CIA and the FBI.

Anthony Summers, The Kennedy Conspiracy (1980)

Due to compartmentalization, neither Angelo nor "Benny" ever had the full scope of exactly what they had been tasked to do, and moreover, had less knowledge of each other's moves doing that, and later operations.

"Benny" still is a pro-shooter, or facilitator, even today. However, nobody in their right mind would suspect that he was part of the "plot" -- especially

the "so-called" plot "formulated/discovered/uncovered" by the majority of wing-nutters I've encountered in my recent travels. As more than a few of the members have stated in their private e-mails to me: "....What a bunch of stupid assholes....they should get-a-life !!"

Since I've never mentioned Benny in any of my posts, I'll assume that I'm exempted from this gratuitous slur from those who send you private comments, but lack the guts to post them here where they might actually be challenged. I'm sure all you "girls" swap much gossip.

As a side-bar: I had to repeatedly twist John Cumming's arm in order that he might show even the slightest interest in the JFK matter. Bill Turner was of the same disinclination, and they, along with many others, wouldn't make ANY inquiries until they were fed inside scoop on other stories of "greater" interest. Even today, Don Bohning could give a rat's ass as to the JFK crap being spewed forth, and this is no doubt a result of his experiencing the less than adequate bona fides "brandished" by the "wing-nutter" groupings & "groupies".

Cummings maintained that Martino divulged what he knew to Cummings only after having sworn him to keep it confidential. You know, the same way you have instructed Tim Gratz that ""...we are OFF THE RECORD as to what is being discussed !!" If so, perhaps Cummings was the journalist referred to by ARRB member Daniel Alcorn in his own ARRB testimony:

When I saw these records this year, I did some further investigation, found a journalist who was very intimate with Mr. Martino back in 1963. In fact, he had been invited to go on this raid in 1963, and he had kept in touch with Mr. Martino over a period of time, and this journalist confirmed to me that, in fact, before Mr. Martino's death he did describe such a plot to this journalist, but he had withheld the information in order to protect the family, and he had an obligation up until now to do that.

Since both Messrs. Turner and Bohning are members here, perhaps they could address your claims regarding their own alleged recalcitrance.

I made no reference to the JFK matter to anybody of consequence until dealing with Garrison during 1967. During 1968, Harold Weizberg came to El Monte, California for a week of interviews, and it was through him that the Paul Coates TV Show producer demanded an interview. During that same short timespan, Bob Dornan & Maria Cole were prompted by Art Bell [all of Channel 9 TV, Los Angeles]to make inquiries, but we diverted them to some insider scoop on the Panthers, Ron Karenga's "US" organization, and the Brown Berets -- ALL of which entities had been created by MH/CHAOS Operators.

So, despite shrewing on and on about reporters and journalists not expressing any interest in the JFK matter despite your apparent pleading - per your comments above re: Cummings, Turner and Bohning - when journalists and officials did express an interest in learning what you knew of the matter, you instead led them off on some other wild goose chase. This is, of course, precisely what I suspect you practice here and elsewhere at every opportunity. It is very accommodating of you to admit that you have a history of doing this.

I will be speaking with Joan today, and if she asks the specific questions, then her book might eventually contain some more enlightenment for those of a serious nature. But it is not about to happen on this forum, that is: before she gets her chance to assemble the facts a bit more coherently !!

Then one wonders why you pre-emptively provide information to Tim Gratz, who seizes the opportunity to do precisely what you claim you don't want done, "before she gets her chance to assemble the facts a bit more coherently."

On the one hand, you refuse to open your mouth. On the other hand, you just can't keep it shut.

Just how deep is the game you're playing, Gerry?

GPH

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[James Richards]

James: the person in the Seymour, Harber, "Benny" photo is none other than CIA Officer Joannides' principal D.R.E. contact -- Isidro "Chilo" Borjas. (Gerry Hemming)

WOW! I've just picked my jaw up off the floor. Did Chilo ever use the name Rudolfo Fasco that you are aware of?

So below we have Chilo, Ed Collins and Ralph Schlafter.

Thanks for the ID, Gerry. Most interesting.

James

[Nick Bartetzko]

THE WC, Clark Panel and HSCA didn't ask the "correct" questions and now we have to ask the "correct" questions to get the "correct" answers. We are fed morsels as is seen fit. Kudos to GPH for feeding us some morsels, but the process really stinks. It is similar to what I read in Twyman's book. People ask "stupid" questions because we still can't make sense of this horrific event and the government sure didn't give a s**t about seeking and providing truthful answers. There is derision when shooters are alleged to be in the sewer or firing poisoned darts from umbrellas. But what is the alternative? JFK had a 3-5mm fronal neck wound and Perry verified that long ago to Weisberg. Perry wiped the blood away and said it had a "ring of bruising". Perry's memory had intentionally or otherwise failed him, but the statement is in Post Mortem and I believe Weisberg taped his interviews. So maybe if we ask 100 stupid questions about the origin of that neck wound then maybe we will have asked the "correct" one and be thrown another morsel by GPH. Mr. Hemming...why would you still want to play such a game all these years later? "Amateurs" have put in a lot of work to understand this event. My thanks to "amateurs" like Vince Palamera and many others for trying to contribute to our understanding of the event when others...who really might know what happened..... choose not to contribute most or all they may know.

[Pat Speer]

I was intrigued by Gerry's statement that it was he who introduced Russo to "Angelo" and dug up Russo's book to see the results of this meeting.

According to Russo, Angelo told him that he accompanied RFK on more than one occasion to the home of Norman Rothman, a mobster with ties to Lansky. According to Russo, Rothman himself told the HSCA he met with Kennedy aides within the White House and discussed killing Castro in Kennedy's office. And yet Rothman seems to have left out that he'd met with Kennedy himself in Florida! Hmmm... Why would he leave this out? Wouldn't it bolster his credibility if he could show he'd actually met with RFK, at a time when RFK was actually in Florida? I'm sorry but I think Russo is wrong to cite Angelo's story as support for Rothman's story. The two stories are, if anything, in conflict.

I believe Angelo's story even less now. I suspect he threw in the Rothman bit to give the Kennedy-hating Russo his money's worth.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

  I believe Angelo's story even less now.  I suspect he threw in the Rothman bit to give the Kennedy-hating Russo his money's worth.

Pat:

Many years back I travelled to Florida, in part to learn what I could about an overlapping crime.  This was a night-time bank heist in my own beloved Canada, the largest bank job in the country's history up to that point in time.  Along with cash and the contents of safe deposit boxes, the cunning burglars made off with bearer bonds and securities that then ended up in the hands of a number of US fences.  Some were found in the possession of a one-time Canadian pilot named Browder [who had collaborated with Jack Ruby on a massive failed (?) scheme to import a variety of Italian weapons].  Others were traced to Norman Rothman, who pleaded not guilty to the consequent charges because he insisted that the use of these stolen securities was in furtherance of a government program against Castro.

I located two people who knew "Normie" pretty well; one a sometime business associate, the other a lifelong friend/acquaintance.  I asked them point blank if Rothman's use of the stolen securities was "legit" [as in, approved by higher authorities in the US government - if so why was he charged?] or whether he was trying to blackmail the government into dropping charges against him [ a la Rosselli] by making such claims in open court.  Separately and quite independently, they both said that "Normie" would have claimed anything about anyone at any time if he felt it would further his own position.  He was, in essence, born and raised without any moral compass and pursued only his self-interest.  In other words, a perfect candidate for membership in the Mob.  And, unfortunately, a perfect tool for intelligence purposes.  [For those who still feel compelled to distinguish between CIA and the Mob.]

Bottom line: don't believe a word out of Rothman's mouth unless you can find concrete confirmation for his claims from a reputable source.  Is Angelo that credible source?  Is Russo trustworthy to report events accurately?

The milieu we're wading through is thick with liars and conmen.  Trying to divine which of them is telling the truth [and if any truth is being told] is a daunting task, and not made any easier by our admitted status as "amateurs."

Vis a vis GPH:  A number of things have been stated here that are patently untrue.  They are not big things [mistaken dates, incorrect persons, etc.]  These may be the result of faulty memory all these years later.  They may be the result of claiming personal knowledge, when it was instead 'received' knowledge.  They may be mere [and minor] mistakes.  But when one encounters such errors on smaller details, the larger details divulged should be scrutinized with great caution to avoid being sucked in. 

Coupled with unsubstantiated, sweeping generalizations about Lippert, Martino, Cummings, Turner, Bohning, et al - from a man who has just openly admitted deliberately steering interested parties onto wild goose chases - doesn't bolster one's confidence.        

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[Gerry Hemming]

James: the person in the Seymour, Harber, "Benny" photo is none other than CIA Officer Joannides' principal D.R.E. contact -- Isidro "Chilo" Borjas. (Gerry Hemming)

WOW! I've just picked my jaw up off the floor. Did Chilo ever use the name Rudolfo Fasco that you are aware of?

So below we have Chilo, Ed Collins and Ralph Schlafter.

Thanks for the ID, Gerry. Most interesting.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

James:

We have done quite a bit of private e-mail correspondence over many months, but

in this case I will correct once again a false assumption which is not your fault, but one which can be laid at the doorstep of "THE AUTHORITIES" who have good reason for obfuscation.

"Rudolfo Fasco" does not exist. This real person of interest is Rudolph "Rudy" FUSCO, who ran a store in the 1800 block of West Flagler Street, Miami. He was the cousin of Hyman "The Jeep King" Berg of Chicago, and was related by marriage to Yonatan Rubenstein, a/k/a "Jack Ruby. The sign on the front of Fusco's store read "Fishin' Fusco", and he approached us after the Bay of Pigs attempting to make yet another surplus U.S. military equipment & vehicles sale, just as he had scammed "Mineral Carriers, Ldt." on Stock Island, Key West (Their unofficial Logo was: "Minerals? We Carry Hot Lead & Cold Steel"). [This occured while Bob Reynolds' predecessor at JM/WAVE was attempting to insert his then miniscule "boy scout troupe" into the JM/ATE [bOP] Task Force.]

Zenith Technical was originally situated at the former NAF (LTA) Richmond [blimp Base] PRIMARILY due to the fact that the acreage hosted the US Coast Guard "antenna farm" -- which would serve as cover for their original "PRIMARY" F.B.I.S. [Foreign Broadcast Intercept Bureau] tasking, which was intended to be a "monitoring only" facility ONLY, despite individual fantasies that it would serve as a transmit/receive/covert communications entity serving the "anti-Castro underground". Since simple "DFing [Direction Finder] techniques used by Cuba would have compromised Op/Sec, Mr. Prinz of Gibraltar Steamship, was given the "green light" to imitate the WWII style ["Verlain Letters" in the book & movie] broadcasting "in-the-blind" !! Thus arose Bill Turner's comical assessment [and book title] "The Fish is Red".

[This completely ignored Frank Wisner, Sr.'s bald and deadly compromising of both Comm/Sec & Op/Sec during his O.P.C. Ops; especially those with the N.T.S. entities in the Ukraine, and the "Partisans" in Albania [doing the early 1950s !!]

"Fishin' Fusco put us on the telephone with Hyman Berg [during early 1962] once again, and without getting into a similar call to Ruby that same week, the only item we ever received from "Rudy" was a WWII 1/2 ton "Weapons Carrier".

However, when just driving out to the Everglades in said vehicle raised our profile drastically [suddenly appearing that we weren't "rag-tag" waffle-eaters at Nellies' anymore, we returned same to the store.]

Ruby had involved the whole Chicago crowd in the 1959 attempt to sell surplus junk to Fidel's nascent Rebel Army & Air Force; along with Dominic Bartone of the Cleveland mob ["The Mayfield Road Gang"].

The above referenced photo centers on Fusco's minor contribution [1963] to the "Pirate Radio Transmitter Boat", which was mostly financed by Freddie Duran's wealthy mother.

NOTE: I would assure all, that NONE of the foregoing and above-mentioned had anything whatsoever to do with Dealey Plaza. Not that I would want to admonish the loud-mouth "Canuck" who joined this Forum last January, and along with his "music biz" has "studied?" the JFK matter for "40 years ??". Just what was around in 1965 for you to study "Mr. DJ" -- mayhaps Epstein's inconclusive "Inquest"; or maybe Lane's "law review article" which he styled as "Rush to Judgment" ?? I suspect that you shant admit "studying" the 26 volumes of cover-up, perjury, forgery, and blatant lies.

Not that I disagree with the motives for said cover-up, which RFK obligingly encouraged during 1964. Why, because then, as today, the threat of nuclear holocaust hung in the air like "Damocles' Sword". The greatest fear of the Washington elite was that Congress would [in accordance with the Constitution]

issue "Letters of Marque" instead of a "War Declaration", because Congress knew well that such a joint resolution would NOT be prosecuted by the Executive Branch, which retained fears of a launch of the 5/10 kiloton (fission) warhead tipped FROG "Cruise Missiles" retained at the Soviet naval base, Banes [Oriente Province/north coast], Cuba until late 1966.

[FROG was the NATO designation, and translated as "Free-Ranging-Over-Ground"]

Also, the publisher I signed a contract with during the mid-1990s was threatened with both the "Espionage" and "The Itelligence Identities Act", and quickly chickenxxxxted out. So much for the "contract signing cocktail party" we had celebrated prior thereto.

Methinks I will add just another ridiculous "closing motto" which has been adopted by some members. Mine is from circa 1953 "Mad Comics". Moreover, the one used erroneously and quoting E. Howard Hunt, needs to be clarified. Firstly, I never like Hunt in the old days, and even less today -- and principally because he defied Joannides in putting the "30th of November" group back on the JM/WAVE payroll, which was conditioned upon their severing ties with our instructor cadre, and pull their trainees back to "couch-potato" and suck up " Dept. of Ag. refugee rations". And Hunt coupled this with threats to take their entire families off of the relief roles should they not cease and desist.

However, the reality of "Eduardo's" many rants as to "one's right-to-the-truth"

[and avoiding comparisons with Jack Nicholson's USMC Colonel in the "A Few Good Men" ant-War movie] -- whether at Weberman's or Spotlight's depositions,

NO PRIVATE CITIZEN HAS A "RIGHT" TO THE "TRUTH" !! And this is especially so when the "leading" question's response might be inculpatory, and violative of 5th Amendment protections.

Amazing, Now I am hearing that I had a duty to "report" something to "The Authorities ??!!"; coupled now with a duty to "report" everything to some completely unknown scribbler on this Forum !! I don't need either family members or prospective publishing houses to once again nag the hell out of me for giving away the goods for free, and thus abrogating their financial interests !!

As for Nellie Hamilton's: that was set up by Sturgis prior to BOP, and we used that boarding house for exactly two weeks. When Sturgis failed to pay the rent, and told her to seek same from me, we were "Outta-there". Some, with jobs or family stipends, stayed on -- but after CIA Jounalist cover Dom Bonafede [Miami Herald] did "Hank" Chavez's bidding [JM/WAVE] to "burn" us, we rented several safehouses in the Negro district where "lilly-white" FBI agents and local cops couldn't do any unobserved surveillance of same.

As for Tony Summers [and Robyn Swan], I have done interviews with both. Unfortunately, a-la-Weberman, they can't get their stories straight, or refashion same to suit their's, or their editor's agendas and demands.

As for my buddy Bill Turner, The only thing he got correct in "10 Second Jailbreak" [later styled in the movie with Chas. Bronson as "Breakout"] was the fact that our "Canuck" Bill Dempsey did in fact return $40,000 to Joel Kaplan's sister. Surprise, Surprise !! [Gomering] It was Howard Davis who was approached by the "Folk Singer", and he set up the entire prison helicopter snatch in Mexico.

I recruited "Chopper Pilot??" Vic Stadter at Bartlett Field [Ontario, California] via my kindergarten pal, Art Dodd, who was then a Rotory-wing CFI ["FAA Certified Helicopter Instructor"]. However, and due to the Federal 5 year statute of limitations [and the "ongoing criminal enterprise/conspiracy statute sans limitations]; not too many of those involved in "derring-do" are stupid enough to expose themselves to government retribution just to satisfy a scribbler or a scrivener !!

Somebody had better check that brown neck stain, it definetly is NOT "ring-around-the-collar" !!

Cheers mate,

GPH

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"WHAT, ME WORRY ?" -- Alfred E. Neuman

_______________________________________

[Mark Knight]

Ron wrote:

Or as the great yodeler Slim Whitman might sing, "Odio lady who?"

SAAAAAAYYYY....maybe the New Vaudeville Band back in the '60's was sending us a coded message in "Winchester Cathedral":

Obe Odio dough?

[i don't read the code very well]