The Thresher Incident

[Robert Howard]

3) George DeMohrenschildt, while living in Washington D.C. during World War II, roomed with a naval officer (Hall) who became the commander of the U.S. Thresher, though he was not with the ship when it went down during sea trials on :

BK

WIth the secret collision of a UK and French subs at sea, I thought I'd bring this thread back to see if there's any more interest in the submariner connections to JFK assassination.

BK

A man named Richard C. Hall was listed as one of the men who went down with the Thresher. Also, the J.W. Harvey mentioned, could that be John W. Harvey? He was also listed as going down with the sub.

JR

The source of the confusion is that DeM's room-mate was named Hull (Harry)... not Hall.

From the HSCA report:

In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he was employed at the time in the Navy building.(209) The other occupants of the house were Lt. Cdr. Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy, and Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Embassy.(210) Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during the end of May and all of June 1942.(211) He said de Mohrenschildt never make any statements about feelings toward any country, and no statements which were pro-Nazi.

Hull wrote an article about the Thresher for a Naval history magazine...

Guerrilla Mission Under the Sea

By Rear Admiral Harry Hull, U.S. Navy (Retired)

In reality, "stewards" in the submarine Thresher are Philippines guerrillas.

Naval History

Unfortunately, the article itself is not available online.

Speaking of mispelt names... the other DeM room-mate listed is Quentin Keynes -- not Quintin Quines as the HSCA has spelt it.

Keynes was the great-grand son of Charles Darwin (one of Oswald's 3 favorite authors according to his Albert Schweitzer College application). Also a nephew to John Maynard Keynes.

Quentin Keynes

DeM sure got close to some remarkable characters. Hopefully more on that soon...

I was able to obtain a look at the following article, and noted what I considered to be some of the more interesting passages.......

PS According to the article, The skipper of the Thresher’s full name was John Wesley Harvey. The Thresher, according to the article, had two sister submarines, the Permit and Plunger.

“You Can Do Anything When You Know You’re Not Alone”

By Irene Harvey. Widow of the Captain of the Nuclear Submarine Thresher [as told to Michael Drury]

from McCall’s Magazine - September 1963

She recalls...”I was at home in the house we rent in New London, Connecticut, the home port of Submarine Group II, of which Thresher was a part. It was Wednesday, April 10, and I was getting dressed for an evening of bridge with friends.

The phone rang, and I took it on the bedroom extension. It was Admiral Alton W. Greenfell, in Norfolk, Virginia, commander of the entire Atlantic Fleet submarine force. He said they had lost radio contact with the submerged Thresher and that everything humanly possible was being done."

"The reporters came.......They stayed out in front until 2:30 A.M., and they were very courteous. I did not let them inside; I couldn’t. I hope they understood;they were only doing their job. I know that. There must have been fifty people in the house that night, military and civilian friends, neighbors, some of them I didn’t even know.”

“We put the children to bed, still reassuring them, still not knowing officially; but in my heart I prayed for the dignity and courage to get through the next few weeks. I did not sleep much that night, but I rested.

At 9:30 the next morning, Admiral Greenfell and Secretary of the Navy Fred Korth came to our home together confirming what we already knew.....”

“Max Shapiro, a civilian attorney friend who has lived all his life in this Navy town, took my boy’s fishing, and Bruce caught his first fish.......Another lawyer in Max Shapiro’s firm, a retired Navy man, volunteered to handle the legal affairs of all Thresher families, entirely free.”

“From the Moselle Valley in France, a woman sent words of solace explaining ‘I am only a little French woman among millions whose thoughts and wishes are, I am sure, the same.’

The submarine Old Comrades Association of England sent a letter in care of the American base at Holy Loch, Scotland, knowing no other way to reach me. “

“The highest ranking government and Navy officers paid tribute to Wes’ abilities and character; the President; Senators and Congressmen; the governor of our home state of Pennsylvania; Admiral George W. Anderson, Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Greenfell; Captain K.G. Schacht, in the Dept. of Defense, who had known Wes at the Academy and first introduced him to go into submarines; William R. Anderson, skipper of Nautilus, with whom Wes served thirty-eight months, on what was then the only nuclear submarine in the world; and many more than I can list here. Captain Arch Gordon, of the Atlantic Oceanographic System, was my husband’s first commanding officer in submarines, on Sea Robin. He summed up all their comments when he wrote of Wes ‘Even as an Ensign, all the ingredients of an Admiral showed through all his undertakings.’”

On an unrelated note, at maryferrell.org, in the biography section, there is extensive reference to a document referred to as simply "O.N.I." there is never, to my knowledge, reference to where, on the website this document is located. If someone knew it could facilitate an extremely important area of research.

Robert

[Robert Howard]

3) George DeMohrenschildt, while living in Washington D.C. during World War II, roomed with a naval officer (Hall) who became the commander of the U.S. Thresher, though he was not with the ship when it went down during sea trials on :

BK

WIth the secret collision of a UK and French subs at sea, I thought I'd bring this thread back to see if there's any more interest in the submariner connections to JFK assassination.

BK

A man named Richard C. Hall was listed as one of the men who went down with the Thresher. Also, the J.W. Harvey mentioned, could that be John W. Harvey? He was also listed as going down with the sub.

JR

The source of the confusion is that DeM's room-mate was named Hull (Harry)... not Hall.

From the HSCA report:

In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he was employed at the time in the Navy building.(209) The other occupants of the house were Lt. Cdr. Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy, and Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Embassy.(210) Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during the end of May and all of June 1942.(211) He said de Mohrenschildt never make any statements about feelings toward any country, and no statements which were pro-Nazi.

Hull wrote an article about the Thresher for a Naval history magazine...

Guerrilla Mission Under the Sea

By Rear Admiral Harry Hull, U.S. Navy (Retired)

In reality, "stewards" in the submarine Thresher are Philippines guerrillas.

Naval History

Unfortunately, the article itself is not available online.

Speaking of mispelt names... the other DeM room-mate listed is Quentin Keynes -- not Quintin Quines as the HSCA has spelt it.

Keynes was the great-grand son of Charles Darwin (one of Oswald's 3 favorite authors according to his Albert Schweitzer College application). Also a nephew to John Maynard Keynes.

Quentin Keynes

DeM sure got close to some remarkable characters. Hopefully more on that soon...

I was able to obtain a look at the following article, and noted what I considered to be some of the more interesting passages.......

PS According to the article, The skipper of the Thresher’s full name was John Wesley Harvey. The Thresher, according to the article, had two sister submarines, the Permit and Plunger.

“You Can Do Anything When You Know You’re Not Alone”

By Irene Harvey. Widow of the Captain of the Nuclear Submarine Thresher [as told to Michael Drury]

from McCall’s Magazine - September 1963

She recalls...”I was at home in the house we rent in New London, Connecticut, the home port of Submarine Group II, of which Thresher was a part. It was Wednesday, April 10, and I was getting dressed for an evening of bridge with friends.

The phone rang, and I took it on the bedroom extension. It was Admiral Alton W. Greenfell, in Norfolk, Virginia, commander of the entire Atlantic Fleet submarine force. He said they had lost radio contact with the submerged Thresher and that everything humanly possible was being done."

"The reporters came.......They stayed out in front until 2:30 A.M., and they were very courteous. I did not let them inside; I couldn’t. I hope they understood;they were only doing their job. I know that. There must have been fifty people in the house that night, military and civilian friends, neighbors, some of them I didn’t even know.”

“We put the children to bed, still reassuring them, still not knowing officially; but in my heart I prayed for the dignity and courage to get through the next few weeks. I did not sleep much that night, but I rested.

At 9:30 the next morning, Admiral Greenfell and Secretary of the Navy Fred Korth came to our home together confirming what we already knew.....”

“Max Shapiro, a civilian attorney friend who has lived all his life in this Navy town, took my boy’s fishing, and Bruce caught his first fish.......Another lawyer in Max Shapiro’s firm, a retired Navy man, volunteered to handle the legal affairs of all Thresher families, entirely free.”

“From the Moselle Valley in France, a woman sent words of solace explaining ‘I am only a little French woman among millions whose thoughts and wishes are, I am sure, the same.’

The submarine Old Comrades Association of England sent a letter in care of the American base at Holy Loch, Scotland, knowing no other way to reach me. “

“The highest ranking government and Navy officers paid tribute to Wes’ abilities and character; the President; Senators and Congressmen; the governor of our home state of Pennsylvania; Admiral George W. Anderson, Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Greenfell; Captain K.G. Schacht, in the Dept. of Defense, who had known Wes at the Academy and first introduced him to go into submarines; William R. Anderson, skipper of Nautilus, with whom Wes served thirty-eight months, on what was then the only nuclear submarine in the world; and many more than I can list here. Captain Arch Gordon, of the Atlantic Oceanographic System, was my husband’s first commanding officer in submarines, on Sea Robin. He summed up all their comments when he wrote of Wes ‘Even as an Ensign, all the ingredients of an Admiral showed through all his undertakings.’”

On an unrelated note, at maryferrell.org, in the biography section, there is extensive reference to a document referred to as simply "O.N.I." there is never, to my knowledge, reference to where, on the website this document is located. If someone knew it could facilitate an extremely important area of research.

Robert

Regarding that last paragraph, I have posted 3 bio's from maryferrell.org's database, so that everyone will be able to understand what I am referencing.

GORDON, HAROLD SHERWIN

Sources: "ONI", p. 189

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 4/14/38. POB: Chicago, IL. Entered service (Marines?) at 18, a few months before LHO entered. Out of service April 1964. Died in plane crash in Lake Michigan 8/16/65. Plane en route from New York to Chicago. No survivors. 24 passengers, 6 crew members. Gordon's second wife died in crash with him. He had been a cosmetics salesman and a Marine Reservist. First wife divorced him because "he was away for such long periiods of time. Had 2 children. They live in Southern California. Mother lives in Florida. Second wife was a model. His mother remembers visiting him at Pendleton. Nothing in his records about Pendleton. He was at Parris Island. Crew: Capt. Towel; Co-pilot Whitezell; Maurice Femmer; Stewardesses: Jeneal Beaver; Sandra Fuhrer; Phyllis Richer; Passengers: Beatrice Cartwright; W. (Wm?) Chalmers; K. Cumming; Sanford Horwitz; Mrs. (B. or H.) Johnson; Martha Kuphal; F. Landstrom; Donna Miller; K. Brick (female); J.B. Caruso; F. Duluca; H. Gordon; Mrs. H. Gordon; R. Hoffman; Mrs. R. Marconi; K. Musin; Daniel Pol; Benjamin Roytman; Clarence Sayen; G. Schmid; J.H. Thomas; R.C. Zabor.

GORDON, KENNETH H., JR. (M.D.)

Sources: FBI 124-10135-10123; FBI 100-32965-306, p. 22; NW 381-22

Mary's

Comments: While the deMohrenschildts were in Haiti, they received mail with return address: "Kenneth H. Gordon, Jr., M.D., 1633 Montgomery Avenue, Villanova, Pennsylvania"

PALMER, PROSS W.

Sources: "ONI", pp. 30, 48, 58, 65, 67, 68, 73, 122

Mary's Comments: Director of Naval Intelligence (OP-921E). See 2 April 1962 memo from Jerry Vacek re Oswald. July 23, 1962, memo from Palmer to Secretary, Naval Discharge Review Board - Attn: CDR E. I. Carson, re Ex-PFC Lee Harvey OSWALD. "OP-921 Transmittal" May 23, 1962, memo from Palmer to Director of Naval Intelligence re Oswald. "OP-921 E2/cn, 921, 921E and 921 F2 on memo." 19 Mar 1962 memo for William. O. Boswell from William. Abbott (orig by P. W. Palmer,

Even though Kenneth Gordon Jr., MD does not have a reference to O.N.I in his bio, his name is included for a reason.

On a last note regarding the article, by Irene Harvey; she comes off as a very sweet person, and I say that in all sincerity. The whole JFCOTT, Thresher sinking & Bray allegations are not a simple little collection of information that readily resolves Bray's allegation's. Once one covers all the information, [and if you have not read the initial post that started this thread, you should do so] my impression is that the fact that Korth went to the Harvey home, while not in itself is unusual, certainly is a point to ponder......

Someone, maybe Ron Ecker, or someone else, recently stated that it was obvious Bray comes off as a little unstable, on the other hand, so too arguably did Marguerite Oswald, Jack Ruby and others.

So, it is hard for me to dismiss his allegations, on that basis.

Deep down inside, I feel, perhaps like other's that when and if "the assassination puzzle is put together," there would be a lot of facts that defied logic and belief. So, I don't "write off" aspects of the case, that touch on persons like Bray......But that is my philosophical outlook, 9 times out of 10 it seems that the person making accusations in the original names associated with conspiracy in the assassination, have either a criminal record or are charged as being some sort of psychotic or unstable person.

While I understand how that affects the believability of their assertions, it is worth repeating that in the world of intelligence, counterintelligence and espionage and crime, that it is very naive to think persons aware of a plot to kill JFK before it happened would be synonymous, character-wise, to members of the Harvard Glee Club. Oswald wasn't a Boy Scout, so why would there be an expectation that he would dwell in circles where everyone was a pillar of their community.....

I suppose Gerald Posner would have to explain that......lol

[Evan Burton]

Regarding a THRESHER article in the USNI Naval History magazine: I should be able to get the print copy of that issue, if anyone would like me to do that.

[William Kelly]

Regarding a THRESHER article in the USNI Naval History magazine: I should be able to get the print copy of that issue, if anyone would like me to do that.

That would be great Evan.

There's also a book, The Death of the USS THRESHER - The Story Behind History's Deadliest SUbmarine Disaster (Lyona Press) by Norman Polmar that I just pulled from my shelf.

BK

[Evan Burton]

By Norman Polmar? It's bound to be a good reference, then. I still use his Soviet Naval Developments from time to time.

[Evan Burton]

Okay, here is that article that was referred to.

Guerrilla mission under the sea

By Harry Hull.

From USNI Naval History, Annapolis, Jun 2000. Vol. 14, Iss. 3, p. 44 (3 pp.)

In the summer of 1943, the commanding officer of the USS Thresher (SS-200) set out on patrol with an unusual mission: sail through dangerous Japanese-controlled waters to deliver five Filipino guerrillas to meet their contacts in the Philippines.

On a typical late fall day in June 1943 I paid my parting call on Admiral Ralph Christie in Perth, Australia. I was skipper of the USS Thresher (SS-200), and I was about to depart on my second war patrol. Upon completing the patrol, we were to return to the Navy Yard at Mare Island, California, for overhaul. This, however, would not be a normal patrol.

After discussing the general situation, Admiral Christie said, "When you go aboard your ship, you may think you have five new Filipino stewards, but you don't. They're dressed that way for cover. The senior one is Dr. Igmidio Cruz, President Quezon's personal physician, whom you are to put ashore somewhere in the Philippines as specified in your sealed orders. He has been commissioned major in the Philippine Army. His president wants him to visit as many guerrilla groups as feasible and all the major cities. Then we'll pull him out and send him back to report to Quezon in Washington."

Admiral Christie also said that the other four men were a lieutenant, a corporal, and two privates in the Philippine Army who had volunteered to join a guerrilla group to fight the Japanese. First Lieutenant Petronio Huerto might be particularly useful because as a civilian he was a coastal pilot in the area. The other men were Corporal Juan Rodriguez, Private Pedro Cariaga, and Private Dominador Gobaleza.

We carried only 16 torpedoes when we left Freemantle, and the after torpedo room had a full load of mines for another secret mission. Preliminary papers said that the guerrillas would have sailing canoes at the landing point, but in case they did not, we had been given four rubber boats which we would inflate and use to ferry the five men and ten tons of supplies from the ship to the beach. My Executive Officer, Larry Julihn, and I both had qualms. Neither of us had any experience with these rubber boats, but both knew canoes and their problems, so we decided to have a good rehearsal in Exmouth Gulf.

The Gulf certainly cooperated, providing a strong wind and an occasional white cap. We anchored and swung naturally into the wind. We rigged out the bow planes, inflated one of the rubber rafts, put a good long line on its front end and tended it from the open area on the main deck forward of the bridge. Letting the line out until the rubber raft was riding just over the stem plane, we called for volunteer teams of two men to paddle into the wind from the stem planes to the bow planes. Lots of men volunteered, but none of them could make headway. Finally I said to the Exec, "Shall we show them how to do it?" He said "Let's."

We went below and put on bathing suits, came back top-- side, and found the crew grinning with the expectation of the Captain and the Exec making fools of the themselves. We knelt side-by-side in the front end of the raft and started paddling. As in a canoe, with our weight forward, the wind kept the boat pointed in the right direction, and we slowly made it to the bow planes. Surprised cheer greeted us, and soon we had all the teams trained and ready. We proceeded on through Lombok Strait between Bali and Lombok into our operating area.

From his exile in Washington, Philippine President Manuel Quezon entrusted his personal physician with the dangerous task of visiting guerrilla groups on the Japanese-- occupied islands.

We made a couple of attacks off Balikapen with unknown results because of the shallow water and counter-- attacks. Later, we spotted a convoy which turned out to be two tankers and another ship escorted by one destroyer. Using the "end run" tactic, we opened the range to where we could see only their tops, which meant they could not see us. Then we could surface and make 20 knots to get ahead of them keeping only their tops in sight, submerge, and wait for them to come into range. We had a good set-up on the tankers when they suddenly zigged. The destroyer ended up nearly dead ahead of us at less than 1,000 yards. We fired two torpedoes, and both exploded. One exploded under the ship, and the other a little too soon, as I had not waited the prescribed ten seconds between shots.

It was dark now, and we had bit of trouble locating the other ships. Radar finally picked them up, and we chased the largest blips. When we were close enough we fired a good spread of torpedoes, and at the appropriate time we heard several explosions. Soon there were two great fires up ahead. Submarine crews rarely see the evidence of their successes. This seemed to be a good moment to let some of the men see the two brightly burning fires, so we passed word through the boat that the men could come to the bridge five at a time to see what they had done.

We also sent a message to Perth reporting our attacks. Before dawn, we got a reply stating that the destroyer had not sunk. We were ordered to go back and finish the job before she could be salvaged. We headed back and several tugs were preparing to tow the destroyer. About the same time, a large lone merchant ship appeared, so we came to the surface and started an end run to get ahead of him. She must have spotted us because she increased speed and we could not close the range.

Some years later I found that our destroyer was still on the ways in Java's Surabaya Navy Yard at the end of the war. I think we can claim that this was even better than sinking her, because she never got back into action and took up needed navy yard space and labor for two years.

It was now time to reconnoiter the area where we were to lay our minefield. I had studied the charts and did not particularly like the lay of the land. We proceeded to the prescribed estuary and started up the long approach. There was very little water under our bottom at periscope depth, and there were a couple of turns into what I would call rivers before we reached our target area. I finally decided that with Dr. Cruz and the guerrillas on board, the risk of grounding and losing them and the ship to the Japanese exceeded any likely return from the minefield, so I pulled out and headed for our Philippine rendezvous. The next time I saw Walter Michaels, the Bryn Mawr physics professor on loan to the Navy to plan minefields, he admitted that he did not really expect anyone to lay that particular field.

Our rendezvous was a cove on the southwest coast of the island of Negros. Following standard procedure, we arrived in the area well before dawn, fixed our position as best we could, submerged and headed in to case the cove. The water was deep and I was able to come in to about a mile off the beach. I could see several small boats through the periscope. Lieutenant Huerto said that there was no reason for such boats to be there so we concluded that they must belong to our friends-meaning we would not have to use the rubber boats for transport. We headed out a few miles to wait until dusk.

A little before noon, a Japanese destroyer appeared from the southeast and lay to between us and our cove. With only one torpedo left, it was an easy decision not to use it. If we got a hit and sank the destroyer, she would certainly have time to get a message off to headquarters. Ships and planes would rush to the area and our landing would have to be aborted. We ran very silent. After an hour, the destroyer steamed away to the northwest. Nothing else happened, so in the late afternoon we moved in towards the cove.

I asked Dr. Cruz if he still wanted to go ashore in spite of the destroyer. I knew from our conversations that Dr. Cruz was fatalistic-he did not expect to survive his assignment, but was determined to give it his best. His reply to my question was, "I must."

We surfaced at dusk and backed the rest of the way until we were in fairly close. The sailing canoes in the cove had started out to meet us. Lieutenant Huerto met them in one of the rubber rafts and gave us the proper recognition signal assuring us that they were friends. When the first boat came alongside, the leader of the guerrillas climbed aboard. Dr. Cruz introduced him as Major Jesus Villamor, the first Philippine ace aviator, whose heroics in shooting down Japanese planes have since been commemorated on a Philippine postage stamp.

"What did you think of that Jap destroyer out there?" I asked him.

"I didn't like it," he said. "I didn't like those Jap Zero planes overhead all day, either." I had not seen the Zeros, but I wasn't very good at spotting planes with a periscope.

"Not to worry," Villamoor assured me, waving toward the island. "There's a point off to the left, and one off to the right. I have men on both points with great piles of brush. If anything comes toward us from either direction, they'll light the pile, we'll jump in the water, and you can slip back out to sea."

We began the process of unloading, which didn't take long. My crew had taken these Filipinos to their hearts. The cook and commissary officer came up and said, "Captain, we've got plenty of food. Let's give all we can spare to them."

"Are you sure?" I asked. "We won't have a chance to replenish until we reach Midway. I don't want to eat pancakes from here to Midway."

"Yes, sir! No problem!"

At the suggestion of the Exec, we gave them our small arms as well, which we were not likely to need.

In the end they took about 20 tons of supplies instead of the 10 tons planned. When everything was finally off-- loaded we said our good-byes and headed for the deep sea. As we were preparing to make the usual trim dive to compensate for the weight we had just taken off, the communications officer brought me a message from our headquarters in Perth which read: "DON'T DO IT. IT'S A TRAP!" I suppose the presence of the Japanese destroyer at our rendezvous was the cause of this alert to potential trouble, but by then it was ancient history. When we surfaced from the trim dive, I had the pleasure of replying: "Mission Accomplished." We ran low on food two or three days out of Midway and ate pancakes the rest of the way.

Dr. Cruz did survive his mission. He carried out all of Quezon's instructions, was evacuated by another submarine, and made his report to President Quezon. Some years later when I was captain of the USS Merrick (LKA-97), and in Manila briefly, I found that he had become Colonel Cruz, medical officer commanding the Philippine Army Hospital. I tried to reach him by telephone but he was out of town. I was on my way to Washington on emergency leave as my mother was ill, so we never met again.

By REAR ADMIRAL HARRY HULL, U.S. Navy (Retired)

Admiral Hull commanded the Thresher during her seventh, eighth, and ninth war patrols. He was awarded the Navy Cross for heroism during those patrols.

[Robert Howard]

I have run across an interesting excerpt from a book that brought the whole Thresher incident to mind, I do not believe anyone will have difficulty understanding

why I believe it is interesting enough to post.

I have had difficulty posting lately, but only when two or more paragraphs of text are involved...lol

Hopefully, the dividing line on length will not get worse, if it does and this becomes a mangled post, I apologize for such an occurrence.

I am also soliciting the opinion of Jim Root, Ron Ecker, Bill Kelly and/or anyone else including someone familiar with reading legal documents

for their opinion on a pertinent passage from the posted text below.

11.02 Private Laws

Over the years, the U.S. Congress enacted legislation to extend the term of U.S. patents. For Example Public Law Number 598....was passed by Congress

and provided for the extension of the term of the patents of persons who served in the U S armed forces during World War II. In this regard,

See Radio Position Finding Corp v Bendix Corporation, 205 F. Supp 850, 133 U.S.P.Q. 638 (D Md., 1962) aff'd 136 U.S.P.Q. 150 (S. Ct. 1963)

which involves an accomodation for a military person. In recent years, Congress has entertained and fulfilled requests for extensions from patent

holders, who have shown that on an equitable basis such extension is warranted because of an injury they have suffered: typically as a result of an

action or inaction by a governmental agency.

See page 11-3 of the book entitled

The law of chemical and pharmaceutical invention: patent and nonpatent ...By Jérome Rosenstock 1999 Aspen Publishers

So is the reference to a "military person," a specific literal person, or a generic "person" in a legal sense, in other words, could it be

a person, who is not a specific person, per se, or does the text mean a literal specific person?

[John Dolva]

I have run across an interesting excerpt from a book that brought the whole Thresher incident to mind, I do not believe anyone will have difficulty understanding

why I believe it is interesting enough to post.

I have had difficulty posting lately, but only when two or more paragraphs of text are involved...lol

Hopefully, the dividing line on length will not get worse, if it does and this becomes a mangled post, I apologize for such an occurrence.

I am also soliciting the opinion of Jim Root, Ron Ecker, Bill Kelly and/or anyone else including someone familiar with reading legal documents

for their opinion on a pertinent passage from the posted text below.

11.02 Private Laws

Over the years, the U.S. Congress enacted legislation to extend the term of U.S. patents. For Example Public Law Number 598....was passed by Congress

and provided for the extension of the term of the patents of persons who served in the U S armed forces during World War II. In this regard,

See Radio Position Finding Corp v Bendix Corporation, 205 F. Supp 850, 133 U.S.P.Q. 638 (D Md., 1962) aff'd 136 U.S.P.Q. 150 (S. Ct. 1963)

which involves an accomodation for a military person. In recent years, Congress has entertained and fulfilled requests for extensions from patent

holders, who have shown that on an equitable basis such extension is warranted because of an injury they have suffered: typically as a result of an

action or inaction by a governmental agency.

See page 11-3 of the book entitled

The law of chemical and pharmaceutical invention: patent and nonpatent ...By Jérome Rosenstock 1999 Aspen Publishers

So is the reference to a "military person," a specific literal person, or a generic "person" in a legal sense, in other words, could it be

a person, who is not a specific person, per se, or does the text mean a literal specific person?

A fascinating post. so as a bump:

This> is just a sideline of some long term contemplations : keywords, dieppe raid, collins radio. grecian 16 (or whatever it was)

edit typo add

Edited September 11, 2010 by John Dolva

[Robert Howard]

I have run across an interesting excerpt from a book that brought the whole Thresher incident to mind, I do not believe anyone will have difficulty understanding

why I believe it is interesting enough to post.

I have had difficulty posting lately, but only when two or more paragraphs of text are involved...lol

Hopefully, the dividing line on length will not get worse, if it does and this becomes a mangled post, I apologize for such an occurrence.

I am also soliciting the opinion of Jim Root, Ron Ecker, Bill Kelly and/or anyone else including someone familiar with reading legal documents

for their opinion on a pertinent passage from the posted text below.

11.02 Private Laws

Over the years, the U.S. Congress enacted legislation to extend the term of U.S. patents. For Example Public Law Number 598....was passed by Congress

and provided for the extension of the term of the patents of persons who served in the U S armed forces during World War II. In this regard,

See Radio Position Finding Corp v Bendix Corporation, 205 F. Supp 850, 133 U.S.P.Q. 638 (D Md., 1962) aff'd 136 U.S.P.Q. 150 (S. Ct. 1963)

which involves an accomodation for a military person. In recent years, Congress has entertained and fulfilled requests for extensions from patent

holders, who have shown that on an equitable basis such extension is warranted because of an injury they have suffered: typically as a result of an

action or inaction by a governmental agency.

See page 11-3 of the book entitled

The law of chemical and pharmaceutical invention: patent and nonpatent ...By Jérome Rosenstock 1999 Aspen Publishers

So is the reference to a "military person," a specific literal person, or a generic "person" in a legal sense, in other words, could it be

a person, who is not a specific person, per se, or does the text mean a literal specific person?

A fascinating post. so as a bump:

This> is just a sideline of some long term contemplations : keywords, dieppe raid, collins radio. grecian 16 (or whatever it was)

edit typo add

For informational purposes, some persons might ask, what in the Wide World of Sports does Radio Position Finding Corporation and/or

Bendix Corporation have to do with the USS Thresher?

A logical question with a logical answer, after the sinking of the Thresher, an event that threw the attempted shooting of General Edwin Walker

off the headlines of many major newspapers, if I am not mistaken there was among the possible causes of the submarines loss, interest in

whether faulty O-rings was the cause of the USS Thresher's sinking. But that is not really the issue, but what is the issue is Edward Bray was an employee,

some said nut-case of the Bendix Corporation who spoke of the assassination being filmed, of a relationship with the USS Thresher, see JFCOTT

and other allegations.

See

http://www.maryferre...46&relPageId=86

In a book entitled The Silent War -Jose Pina Craven, revealed that he was attending a meeting convened by Elton "Joe" Greenfell,

Commander Submarine Forces Atlantic.

The meeting was of .........Greenfell's top commanders with the top submarine brass of the Pentagon, the top engineering

duty officers of the Bureau of Ships, and the top management of the Special Projects Office. SPO's Admiral Raborn,

due to address the group, described it as a "revival meeting."

The meeting had barely proceeded past the introductory remarks when Admiral Greenfell was called from the speakers podium.

He returned ashen-faced to announce that Thresher was down and was almost certainly lost with all hands.

pages 102-103 The Silent War -Jose Pina Craven

[Guest Tom Scully]

....The meeting had barely proceeded past the introductory remarks when Admiral Greenfell was called from the speakers podium.

He returned ashen-faced to announce that Thresher was down and was almost certainly lost with all hands.

pages 102-103 The Silent War -Jose Pina Craven

Robert, because such comments were too premature and pessimistic, given what the record indicates was relayed to him initially, I very much doubt Vice Adm. Elton Greenfell said anything resembling the above comments just minutes after he was notified of the receipt of the message about the loss of communications and all other contact with the USS Thresher by USS Skylark skipper, Lt. Cmdr Hecker.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YJlalhHSCRoC&pg=PA42&dq=%22I+had+two+officers+from+Norfolk+as+my+guests,%22+he+recalled+later.+%22The+chief+handed+me+the+paper+and+said&hl=en&ei=qPWLTM3_BcX_lgell6hg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22I%20had%20two%20officers%20from%20Norfolk%20as%20my%20guests%2C%22%20he%20recalled%20later.%20%22The%20chief%20handed%20me%20the%20paper%20and%20said&f=false

Death of the Thresher

Norman Polmar - 1964 - 148 pages - Snippet view

Captain J. Sneed Schmidt, commander of Submarine Flotilla 2, received the Skylark's message at 1:02 PM as he returned from lunch. "I had two officers from Norfolk as my guests," he recalled later. "The chief handed me the paper and said ..

Edited September 11, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Robert Howard]

....The meeting had barely proceeded past the introductory remarks when Admiral Greenfell was called from the speakers podium.

He returned ashen-faced to announce that Thresher was down and was almost certainly lost with all hands.

pages 102-103 The Silent War -Jose Pina Craven

Robert, because such comments were too premature and pessimistic, given what the record indicates was relayed to him initially, I very much doubt Vice Adm. Elton Greenfell said anything resembling the above comments just minutes after he was notified of the receipt of the message about the loss of communications and all other contact with the USS Thresher by USS Skylark skipper, Lt. Cmdr Hecker.

http://books.google....%20said&f=false

Death of the Thresher

Norman Polmar - 1964 - 148 pages - Snippet view

Captain J. Sneed Schmidt, commander of Submarine Flotilla 2, received the Skylark's message at 1:02 PM as he returned from lunch. "I had two officers from Norfolk as my guests," he recalled later. "The chief handed me the paper and said ..

Tom, that Jose Pina Craven, may have taken liberties with his position in regards to the comments you referenced, I would say that it isn't really the thrust of why I am posting

on the Thresher thread, but rather attempting to ascertain if a real military and or scientific individual who had served in World War II and had patented something related

to radio frequency research, or possibly something else was connected to Bendix Corp.....

If I were to answer my own question, I would say there was, and I already have a list of likely candidates.

But, on the other hand I will agree with you to the extent that the following reinforces your information.

There is the following quote.

"I tried to pin down the system failure that deprived the nation of a competent Chief Executive.

It was the security guard at the Texas School Book Depository. It was his duty to flush out

Lee Harvey Oswald and send him on his paranoid way." - Jose Pina Craven see page 91 The Silent War

When I read that passage, probably four or five years ago, I was scratching my head. And I still am.

[Bernice Moore]

a few photos of the Thresher, if of interest..b

[Robert Howard]

Bernice, as always many thanks.

I need to correct myself, regarding my comment regarding O-rings as being the possible cause of the Thresher

sinking.

USS Thresher

In June a Navy Court of Inquiry concluded that

the most likely cause of the SSBN-628 Thresher's sinking

was a piping failure in one of the saltwater systems,

probably in the engine rooms.

Page 270 Comptons Yearbook for the year 1963

I am still looking into the patent referenced in RPFC v Bendix.

While some may think such a issue, is irrelevant there is an important

distinction that should be made.

A new look at an old story, sometimes reveals

a factoid that can make a lot of difference, and facts,

true facts, can always change the playing field, if you will

pardon my phrasing.

Take the following for instance.

The flight of some of [six members] JFK's cabinet

from over the Pacific to Japan, which then was returned

to Honolulu and back to Washington seems like a story

that has already been written to death.

Au Contraire!

The following is an excerpt of an article

Flight by Six Members of Congress Reversed

Associated Press 11/22/63

At Honolulu, during a refueling stopover,

an Air-Force doctor Captain Roy F. Roddam

met the plane and was reported to have given

tranquilizers to some members aboard.

Admiral Harry D. Felt, Pacific Commander

had called the plane by radio-telephone

and given the first word of President Kennedy's

assassination in Dallas.

Manning said Rusk, upon hearing the news

stated simply, "We are turning around."

Then confirmation came from the White House

in Washington.

Plans were to fly the plane directly to Washington

from Honolulu. The delegation had started for Tokyo to

attend the third-annual U.S-Japan economic conference

which was to have opened Monday.

If you were on that flight and worried about the missing code book,

would a tranquilizer come in handy?

[David Andrews]

With all respect to American farming - isn't the Thresher named for a thresher shark?

Edited September 17, 2010 by David Andrews

[Robert Howard]

There is an old adage that to really live, one has to risk making stupid mistakes, at any rate

....I wanted to let those that were interested in my previous post know that I did extensively research the topic of the patent, and did not come to any conclusion

that resolved the issue definitively, so I will just report my findings.

I did discover numerous references to companies such as Dupont Corp., various incarnations of Bendix Corp and....the Manhattan Project.

Regarding persons, literally I did discover a patent related to submarines from the Thresher Era, but it was nothing [one would think] that would cause

serious injury, of any kind which seemed to be the implication of what the article I cited was referencing

See

Capt. Charles D. Summitt, USN (Ret.) died January 1, 2009 in St. Petersburg, FL. A graduate of Montgomery Bell Academy, CAPT Summitt, attended Vanderbilt and Georgia Tech before graduating from the United States Naval Academy in 1947.

In 1958 Capt Summitt invented and received a patent for a safer boatswain's chair which came to be known as the "Summitt Chair." On July 21, 1962, nuclear powered submarine, USS Seadragon, based in the Pacific and commanded by Summitt, met the USS Skate, based in the Atlantic, under the polar ice cap and the two made history as they surfaced together through a hole in the ice cap. Capt Summitt's last submarine command was the USS Alexander Hamilton, a Polaris submarine. He served as aide to Admiral Hyman Rickover 1963-64. He retired from the navy in 1974.

In 2004, a book, Tales of a Cold War Submariner, by Dan Summitt was published by Texas A&M University.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

These were the most interesting

See pdf

Dupont Fluoropolymer Solutions

Section entitled

"World War II, A turning point for PTFE"

from k20165.pdf

During World War II scientists involved with the US Military

set out to find a material to protect gaskets, valves and fittings from corrosion.

PTFE provides the solution. A range of military applications, made possible

by PTFE, including its use as part of the Manhattan Project, drive increased

use of PTFE and manufacturing on a broader scale.

Dr Roy J Plunkett is granted a patent for PTFE in 1941

In 1944 Dupont registers the trademark Teflon

Robert: Ralph Landau was a contemporary of Dr Roy J Plunkett........

Ralph Landau (1916–2004) founded one of the world's most successful engineering and design firms, Scientific Design Company, Inc., and its successor corporations, which developed and commercialized nearly a dozen processes for producing petrochemicals.

As a high school student in Philadelphia during the Depression, Landau noticed a newspaper article about the new "glamour field" of chemical engineering and decided that it was the career for him. A scholarship student at the University of Pennsylvania, he majored in chemical engineering and went on to receive his doctorate from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. As a new Ph.D. he worked for the New Jersey–based M. W. Kellogg Company, one of the first engineering firms that specialized in design and development for the oil refining and chemical industries. During World War II, Kellogg was asked to build a large-scale facility at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, to separate uranium 235, which was needed for the atomic bomb, from the predominant isotope, uranium 238. Landau was given the responsibility of designing the equipment to produce fluorine, a highly reactive substance needed to make the uranium hexafluoride used in the gaseous diffusion process. He also oversaw the production of the fluorinated compounds used to protect surfaces in contact with the uranium hexafluoride.

After the war he and a construction engineer he had met at Oak Ridge, Harry Rehnberg, started Scientific Design with the objective of improving petrochemical production processes. Much of their business in the early days was abroad, and one of their first successes was an improved method of producing terephthalic acid—the main raw ingredient in polyester fiber—by bromine-assisted oxidation of paraxylene. Worldwide rights for this process were purchased by Standard Oil of Indiana (now BP Amoco). Another triumph was an improved process for producing propylene oxide, a substance used in polyurethane foams and in rigid polymers; in this case the partner in the new corporation, called Oxirane, was Arco Chemical Company (also now BP Amoco).

Later, as a faculty member of the economics department at Stanford University and a fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Landau focused on understanding the political and economic environment necessary to encourage technological innovation—the lifeblood of a successful economy.

Landau received more than 50 honors and awards in his lifetime, including the National Medal of Technology, the Founders Award of the American Institute of Chemical Engineers, the Chemical Industry Medal, and the Perkin Medal. He was an elected member of the National Academy of Engineering. In his spare time he enjoyed swimming, opera, travel, wine, art, and tapestries. Landau and his wife, Claire, had one daughter.

Both Dr Plunkett and Ralph Landau are detailed at

http://www.chemheritage.org

List of significant technological developments of the pre-World War II and World War II Era

Robert: Does anybody remember Dr Mary Sherman?

1929 Particle accelerator

A particle accelerator is a device that uses electric fields to propel electrically-charged particles to high speeds and to contain them. The earliest particle accelerators were cyclotrons, invented in 1929 by Ernest Lawrence at the University of California, Berkeley.

1933 Frequency modulation

In telecommunications, frequency modulation (FM) conveys information over a carrier wave by varying its frequency. While working in the basement laboratory of Columbia's Philosophy Hall, Edwin Armstrong invented wide-band frequency modulation radio in 1933. Rather than varying the amplitude of a radio wave to create sound, Armstrong's method varied the frequency of the wave instead. FM radio broadcasts delivered a much clearer sound, free of static, than the AM radio dominant at the time. Armstrong received a patent on wideband FM on December 26, 1933.[322]

1937 Digital computer

A digital computer is a device capable of solving problems by processing information on discrete form. It operates on data, including magnitudes, letters, and symbols that are expressed in binary form. While working at Bell Labs in November 1937, George Stibitz, who is internationally recognized as the father of the modern digital computer, built the world's first relay-based computer which calculated binary addition.

1937 Klystron

A klystron is a specialized linear-beam vacuum tube. Klystrons are used as amplifiers at microwave and radio frequencies to produce both low-power reference signals for superheterodyne radar receivers and to produce high-power carrier waves for communications and the driving force for modern particle accelerator. Russell and Sigurd Varian of Stanford University are generally considered to be the inventors. Their prototype was completed in August 1937.

1941 Acrylic fiber

Acrylic fibers are synthetic fibers made from a polymer Polyacrylonitrile with an average molecular weight of ~100,000, about 1900 monomer units. To be called acrylic in the United States, the polymer must contain at least 85% acrylonitrile monomer. Typical comonomers are vinyl acetate or methyl acrylate. The Dupont Corporation invented the first acrylic fibers in 1941 and trademarked them under the name "Orlon".

1942 Ames process

The Ames process is a process to purify uranium ore. It can be achieved by mixing any of the uranium halides with calcium powder or aluminium powder. The Ames process was invented and used on August 3, 1942 by a group of chemists led by Frank Spedding at the Ames Laboratory.

from answers.com

American chemist (1902–1984)

Spedding was born at Hamilton, Ontario, in Canada and educated at the University of Michigan and Berkeley where he obtained his PhD in 1929. After working at Cornell from 1935 to 1937, he moved to Iowa State University, where he remained for the rest of his career. He was appointed professor of chemistry in 1941 and director of the Institute of Atomic Research from 1945 to 1968. In 1942, at the request of Arthur Compton, Spedding and his Iowa colleagues devised new techniques for the purification of the uranium required urgently for the development of the atomic bomb. Their method reduced the price of uranium from $22 per pound to $1 per pound. After the war Spedding put his new skills to separating the lanthanide elements, an extremely difficult task because of the similarity of their physical and chemical properties. The technique used on uranium, and later successfully applied to the lanthanides, was that of ion-exchange chromatography. A simple example is seen when hard water is allowed to percolate through a column of the mineral zeolite; calcium ions are absorbed by the mineral, which releases its own sodium ions into the water – in effect, an exchange of ions. In the late 1930s more efficient synthetic resins were introduced as ion exchangers. Spedding passed lanthanide chlorides through an exchange resin that differentially absorbed the compounds present, thus allowing them to be separated. As a result, for the first time, chemists could deal with lanthanoids in substantial quantities.

In 1965 Spedding published, with Adrian Daane, an account of his work in his Chemistry of Rare Earth Elements.

1943 Napalm

Napalm is the name given to any of a number of flammable liquids used in warfare, often jellied gasoline. Napalm is actually the thickener in such liquids, which when mixed with gasoline makes a sticky incendiary gel. Invented in the United States during World War II by a team of Harvard chemists led by Louis Fieser*, Napalm's name is a portmanteau of the names of its original ingredients, coprecipitated aluminium salts of naphthenic acid and palmitic acids. These were added to the flammable substance to cause it to gel.

More......

1943 Yerkes spectral classification*

The Yerkes spectral classification, also called the MKK system from the authors' initials, is a system of stellar spectral classification invented in 1943 by William Wilson Morgan, Phillip C. Keenan* and Edith Kellman from the Yerkes Observatory.

obit Philip C. Keenan, 92, Pioneer In the Classification of Stars

By ERIC COPAGE

Published: April 24, 2000

Philip C. Keenan, whose work in the spectral classification of stars helped astronomers understand the chemical evolution of galaxies, died on Thursday at a hospital in Columbus, Ohio. He was 92. Dr. Keenan (pronounced kee-NAN) was emeritus professor of astronomy at Ohio State University in Columbus.

He wrote the Atlas of Stellar Spectra in 1943 with Dr. W. W. Morgan, who died in 1994. Its system of classifying stars by their spectra, or the wavelengths of light they emit, is still in wide use. Dr. Keenan also had an extraordinarily long history of professional publication. ''He published longer than most astronomers live,'' said Jay A. Frogel, a colleague of Dr. Keenan's at Ohio State.]

Robert: But, there was even more

Reflections of a Technocrat: Managing Defense, Air, and Space Programs During the Cold War ...by John McLucas Col Kenneth W. Alnwick & Lawrence Benson; Publication: Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala Air University Press, 2006. John McLucas died on December 1st, 2002 at age 82; Foreword By Melvin Laird

keywords

Edwin Keller NSA

Haller, Raymond and Brown

Joseph Amato

Brig Gen Edwin "Spec" Powell

MITRE

Col George Munroe

James M. Landis who presided over the 1947 hearings on airliner crew size

Attending Davidson College & Tulane University

blurbs

Among my professors was Dr Joseph Morris

page 9 Employing Radio In The Navy

In June 1943, with degree in hand I signed on with the U S Navy

Assigned to the USS Saint George in 1944...

I took my place as the Saint George's radar officer.....

I had accepted an offer to become a junior engineer, designing parts for new radars at the Cambridge Field Station of the Watson Laboratories. Although operated by the Army Air Forces, the lab [located in New Jersey] was still under contract to the Army Signal Corps.

page 17 One day in early 1948....Dean George Haller of the Department of Physics and Chemistry, asked if I might like a part-time job working for something called H. R. & B........He explained that it stood for Haller, Raymond and Brown [ ie Geore Haller Raymond and Walt Brown George Haller, a local native whose father managed Penn State's farm had headed the Aircraft Radio Section of the Signal Corp lab at Wright Field during the war, and among other things, developed an aerial training wire antenna. The government retained rights to this invention for military use but let him keep the rights for commercial development.

Foot note

Wright and Patterson Fields near Dayton, Ohio were combined into one base in 1948 called Wright-Patterson Air Force Base [AF15]. Long the center

for aviation research, development and testing and logistics for the Army Air Forces, it also became the site for Air Material Command headquarters.

page 19 When the Korean War buildup began, the unit was called to active duty to eventually serve as a source of replacements of other radar units scattered along the eastern seaboard and overseas. At the time the 112th was federalized, H R and B [George Haller, Richard "Dick" Raymond and Walt Brown] was so deeply involved in classified work for the Air Force that Haller, Brown and McLucas were given what amounted to deferments.

page 21..Although always looking for commercial opportunities, HRB's core business remained focused on some of the most highly classified areas of national defense. We were one of the first companies to move into the post World War II signal intelligence [sIGINT] business....

Even though HRB was rapidly expanding into such areas [photo-reconnaissance and camera work] Dick Raymond became attracted to bigger challenges. In 1953 he [Thompson] joined the RAND Corporation

page 24 In the summer of 1955 Walt Brown died in the surf off Redbank, New Jersey

page 41, Theodore Von Karman

Robert: While Boris Pash was working Europe toward the end of WW II, looking for scientists

Theodore Von Karman was beginning his association with the US Military

In one of the precursors of what is known as the Woods-Hole Summer Study

END

Question Who was Theodore Von Karman?

The universal man:

Theodore von Kármán's life in aeronautics

Michael H. Gorn

0 Reviews

Smithsonian Institution Press, 1992 - Biography & Autobiography - 202 pages

The Universal Man recounts the full range of Theodore von Karman's scientific and social accomplishments. Regarded as one of the fathers of supersonic flight, von Karman pioneered the use of applied mathematics in aeronautics and astronautics and, in the process, discovered some of the fundanmental laws of both disciplines. Von Karman used his theoretical knowledge to design aircraft, dirigibles, rockets, and missiles. He also demonstrated the first solid-propellant rocket engine. As significant as these accomplishments are (President John Kennedy presented him with the first National Medal of Science in 1963), they form but a portion of this great man's legacy. Born in Hungary, von Karman (1881-1963) emigrated to the United States in 1930 and lived the remainder of his life in Pasadena, California. He was a gifted teacher, passing on to three generations of students his own, novel approach to problem solving. Possessing a unique capacity to harmonize unlike temperaments and focus them on common objectives, he promoted an unprecedented degree of international scientific cooperation. Von Karman was the moving force behind many now-famous institutions, including NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Cal Tech's Guggenheim Aeronautical Laboratory, and the USAF Scientific Advisory Board. His circle of colleagues included such diverse personalities as Dr. Hugh L. Dryden, the first deputy administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration; General Bernard A. Schriever (USAF, ret.), the father of the USAF ballistic missile program; and Dr. William Pickering, former director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. In a compact, nontechnical work intended for general readers, The UniversalMan provides a rounded picture of this warm and eminently humane scientist's life and examines the extent to which personality influences the course of science.

HRB Systems Inc., formerly HRB Singer, now part of Raytheon Intelligence and Information

Systems, is/was a defense contractor located in State College, Pennsylvania. The company was started by

three scientists: Haller, Raymond, and Brown. The company was part of E-Systems before Raytheon

purchased........

Wikipedia...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HRB_Systems

In 1987-88 some State College HRB emplyees (The Droski Group) did an away assignment at H

RB's Sister Company, Kearfott in Little Falls, NJ- project TACMS . Kearfott was founded in 1917

as The Kearfott Company Inc., becoming the Kearfott Division of the General Precision Equipment

Corporation in 1955 and then, in 1968, the Kearfott Division of Singer Business Corporation.

In 1987 Singer split Kearfott; the Kearfott Guidance & Navigation division was sold to the

Astronautics Corporation of America in 1988, and the Electronic Systems Division was purchased by

GEC-Marconi in 1990 and renamed GEC-Marconi Electronic Systems.

From facebook

http://www.facebook....gid=24683897961

End

Edited November 7, 2010 by Robert Howard