Who was Saul?

[Tim Gratz]

Gerry Hemming copied me on an e-mail he sent to a gentleman who I think is a member of our forum. In that e-mail Gerry identifies "Saul", the person photographed coming out of the embasssy in Mexico City. Here is what Mr. Hemming states re "Saul":

"The worthless toy Oswald rifle was NOT purchased from Klein's, and was never lawfully imported into the United States. It was given to him by the same man whose photos appeared in the CIA Mexico, D. F. surveillance shots. His alias at that time was Saul Sage". His real name is Mario Tauler Sague, and he appeared on the list of assassins given to Senator McGovern by Fidel in Havana. He was born before WWII in what later became Sov-controlled East Germany, raised in Leipzig -- worked for the Gehlen organization until hired by Harvey in Berlin. Our "little Joe" Garman always called him "Sal Saggy". [More on "Saul" (MacDonald's) and his role with "Raul" in the MLK, Jr. hit later]."

[James Richards]

Tim,

Mario Tauler Sague was a member of the counter-revolutionary group La Cruz. He and another guy whose name escapes me for now, entered Cuba in the summer of 1960 supposedly on orders from the CIA to kill Castro. They were arrested but I have no idea what became of them.

FWIW.

James

[Tim Gratz]

Very interesting, James.

I was not aware of any CIA sponsored assassination attempts against Castro as early as the summer of 1960.

Do you have any way to compare this man with the photo of the unidentified man from Mexico City?

Can you tell us (or refer us to references about) the group with which he was associated?

[James Richards]

Tim,

I don't have a photo of Mario Sague so I can't compare him to the Mexico Oswald.

As far as the counter-revolutionary group he was connected to, I will have to dig into my notes for that information.

What I can tell you is that Sague's partner on the Castro assassination mission was a guy named Armando Cubria Ramos. I checked my notes and it seems that Cubria was mentioned in a communication dated April the 5th, 1974. This was regarding political prisoners who were suffering ill treatment or a lack of medical care.

After Cubria was arrested, he was placed in the Guanajay Prison in Cuba and basically left to rot. What happened to Sague I don't know but prisoners like him are either executed or spend a lifetime behind bars. Unless he escaped, I am at a loss.

James

[Shanet Clark]

So we are still left with the question, is 'Saul' Sague the "big Oswald" ?

I am still curious if the false Oswald figure was inside of, or outside of, the Soviet gates... If he was outside, the photo was staged, but if he was inside, the guy was a Soviet asset....

The CIA rarely release photos, so it is fishy they let this series out, since it was obviously not LHO.........

What is the deal with the tapes of "Oswald" at the Cuban and Soviet Embassies.

Again, they never reveal this material, so it is fishy to publicize these "buggings"

Didn't an analyst say the tapes were not LHO?

Has anyone heard the tapes?

Are transcripts available?

This whole thing reeks of spin, disinformation and shows multiple violations of established U.S. security protocols involving the release of photography and eavesdropping of hostile embassies...

Edited February 15, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Greg Wagner]

So we are still left with the question, is 'Saul' Sague the "big Oswald" ?

I am still curious if the false Oswald figure was inside of, or outside of, the Soviet gates... If he was outside, the photo was staged, but if he was inside, the guy was a Soviet asset....

The CIA rarely release photos, so it is fishy they let this series out, since it was obviously not LHO.........

What is the deal with the tapes of "Oswald" at the Cuban and Soviet Embassies.

Again, they never reveal this material, so it is fishy to publicize these "buggings"

Didn't an analyst say the tapes were not LHO?

Has anyone heard the tapes?

Are transcripts available?

This whole thing reeks of spin, disinformation and shows multiple violations of established U.S. security protocols involving the release of photography and eavesdropping of hostile embassies...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I read somewhere recently that the FBI examined the audio tapes and determined that the voice was NOT that of LHO and that the CIA concealed these facts from the HSCA. I'm going to look back through my notes and try to locate the source. Any help on this? Anyone ever heard that?

[Harry J.Dean]

Very interesting, James.

I was not aware of any CIA sponsored assassination attempts against Castro as early as the summer of 1960.

Do you have any way to compare this man with the photo of the unidentified man from Mexico City?

Can you tell us (or refer us to references about) the group with which he was associated?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim

CIA likely began plans to eliminate Castro after he stated he

was a Communist/Socialist etc;etc;. It was the summer of 1960 {June} when

I was 'cruely' interrogated at Havana HDQT by G2/DGI. I did not pick up any

hint of assassination concern, the same applied with U.S. Intelligence prior to

my going to Cuba. Cuban Intelligence was very concerned about the Invasion

they knew was coming, as it did soon enough in 1961. However assassination

could have, and likely was being 'considered' at that time by U.S. at higher official levels.

Harry

[Lee Forman]

From memory, I believe it may have been in the Playboy interview with Jim Garrison where he cast some doubts as to the veracity of the photo supplied by Mexico City Station as a false CIA lead?

Interesting to note David Atlee Phillips account in Nightwatch, page 141.

Some of those who do so well financially lecturing before College groups on this subject claim that a 'mystery man' was in Mexico City, pretending to be Lee Harvey Oswald.  They are right in that there was a mysterious person, with the physical appearance of an American, who was in Mexico City and in contact with the Soviet embassy at the same time Oswald was there.

In writing the first cable from Mexico City about Oswald, Craig's wife described Lee "Henry" Oswald as "Approximately 35 years old, with an athletic build, about six feet tall, with a receding hairline." She had put together two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle which appeared compatible but which did not, in fact, fit together.  We had learned of a contact Oswald made with the Soviet Embassy, asking the Russians if they had any news on his application to return to the Soviet Union. Craig's wife, incorrectly, surmised that the contact was made by another person, photographed as an individual of interest because he had frequented the Soviet embassy.  She was describing the mysterious stranger and not, as was found later, the person making the contact.  She had put one (Oswald, seeking a visa from the Soviets) and one (an unknown visitor to the Russian embassy) together and come up with an incorrect two:  the assumption that the two men were the same.  If that second person, the hefty fellow with an athletic build, would present himself today, like a Rip Van Winkle, it would be useful to all of us.

Chalk that up in the museum of the hard to believe. Isn't it more logical to assume that if they did in fact make an error, that the hefty fellow's photo was in LHO's file?

[Lee Forman]

Early in the official inquiry, the CIA informed the Warren Commission of Oswald’s alleged activities in Mexico City before the assassination. Uncharacteristically, the Commission asked for more evidence. Perhaps the Commission members, aware that the Agency had 24-hour photographic surveillance of the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico City, were hoping for a good picture to shore up their sparsely documented account of Oswald’s trip to Mexico.

Initially, the Agency ignored the Commission’s request. But after more pressure, the CIA finally handed over a murky snapshot of a portly, graying gentleman almost old enough to be Oswald’s father. This, the Agency claimed, was Lee Harvey Oswald at the Cuban Embassy.

The Agency also produced a statement from Silvia Duran, a Mexican who worked at the Cuban Embassy, alleging that Oswald had appeared there. However, the circumstances under which the statement was obtained were tainted, to say the least. On the day of the assassination, the CIA ordered authorities to arrest Duran and keep her in isolation.(Footnote 16) The Agency cable said: "With full regard for Mexican interests, request you ensure that her arrest is kept absolutely secret, that no information from her is published or leaked, that all such info is cabled to us…" Duran was not released until she identified Lee Oswald as the visitor to the Cuban Embassy. After her release, the CIA ordered her jailed again. These circumstances were not known to the Commission. Moreover, in 1978 Duran told author Anthony Summers that the man who came to the embassy was blond and about her own height (five feet three)—hardly Oswald.

(Jim Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins, pp. 73 - 74)

[Lee Forman]

Interesting hit at NARA

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10112-10044

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 002458

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : HSCA

FROM : MALENE, W. SCOTT

TO : GAY, DONOVAN

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 12/23/1976

PAGES : 3

DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

SUBJECTS : "SAUL"; SAGUE, TAULER; RUBY, JACK; MEXICO CITY;

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/18/1993

COMMENTS : ATTACHED CHRONOLOGY. BOX 59.

[Lee Forman]

Another interesting hit at NARA. ONI.

Hit 1 of 1

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : ONI

RECORD NUMBER : 173-10011-10093

RECORDS SERIES : HEADQUARTERS, NCIS FOIA OFFICE

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : ONI

FROM : [No From]

TO : [No To]

TITLE : CROSS REFERENCE SHEET

DATE : 12/08/1961

PAGES : 1

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : SAUL SAGE, AND GERALD PATRICK HEMMING

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 12/16/1993

COMMENTS : CROSS REFERENCE SHEET WITH SOME INFORMATION FOUND

WITHIN FBI REPORT OF 11-14-61 REGARDING JAMES WILLIAM

BECK AND JOHN CLIFFORD NORDEEN. ONE ORIGINAL

PROVIDED.

Audit history for this Record Identification Form

Is there a meaningful correlation between the word 'Saul' in NARA and 'The Judas Movement?"

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10093-10266

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBEREDSD FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 001914 (FOLDER 5)

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CITIZEN

FROM : HIURTADO, LILA (LIBRA)

TO : BELL, GRIFFIN

TITLE : LINK BETWEEN JOHN F. KENNEDY, MARTIN LUTHER KING,

ROBERT KENNEDY...

DATE : 08/22/1977

PAGES : 6

DOCUMENT TYPE : LETTER

SUBJECTS : HURTADO, LILA (LIBRA); HUNT, H.L.; NIXON, RICHARD;

CBI, STAFF; FBI, METHODOLOGY; THE JUDAS MOVEMENT

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/12/1993

COMMENTS : Box 40.

[James Richards]

CIA likely began plans to eliminate Castro after he stated he

was a Communist/Socialist etc;etc;. It was the summer of 1960 {June} when

I was 'cruely' interrogated at Havana HDQT by G2/DGI. I did not pick up any

hint of assassination concern, the same applied with U.S. Intelligence prior to

my going to Cuba. Cuban Intelligence was very concerned about the Invasion

they knew was coming, as it did soon enough in 1961. However assassination

could have, and likely was being 'considered' at that time by U.S. at higher official levels. (Harry Dean)

Thanks, Harry. That is interesting indeed.

From what I have been able to piece together, during the summer of 1960, Mario Tauler Sague and Armando Cubria Ramos at the behest of the CIA, were sent into Cuba to kill Castro. They were captured where as of April the 5th, 1974, Cubria was still in prison and suffering ill treatment.

In your opinion, if Sague was also captured, is there any other way he could have been in Mexico City during September of 1963 other than escaping his Cuban captors? For example, are you aware of any deals that may have seen his release?

James

[Shanet Clark]

By coincidence I just found this on EBAY

If you want it, it runs about $40 delivered and auction ends in 34 hours

(8 am Thursday Morning EST USA)

Item # D107, HSCA Lopez Report on Mexico City, R.I.F. # 108-10110-10484, Date released 9/7/96, 400 pages. These 400 page's of declassified TOP SECRET CIA reports contain the documents concerning Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City in September of 1963. Central Intellegence Agency Surveillance Operations in Mexico City, photographic Cuban & Soviet compound's, electronic (telephones) Cuban & Soviet Compounds, Cuban tapes, Soviet tapes.......Information about Lee Harvey Oswald's stay in Mexico City that was known by the CIA Mexico City station prior to the assassination of John Kennedy and the sources of that information. Information not available at the time of the Warren Commission investigation (Sylvia Duran), the Cubans. Analysis, did an imposter contact the Cuban and Soviet Consulates in Mexico City? What were Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in Mexico City? Was Oswald alone while he traveled to Mexico City? Differences between the Warren Commission investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in Mexico City and House Select Committee on Assassination's investigation. There are a total of 400 pages to the declassified TOP SECRET CIA documents you will receive.

.........someone should pick this up.............

[James Richards]

Interesting hit at NARA

AGENCY INFORMATION

            AGENCY : HSCA

      RECORD NUMBER : 180-10112-10044

    RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 002458

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

        ORIGINATOR : HSCA

              FROM : MALENE, W. SCOTT

                TO : GAY, DONOVAN

              TITLE : [No Title]

              DATE : 12/23/1976

              PAGES : 3

      DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

          SUBJECTS : "SAUL"; SAGUE, TAULER; RUBY, JACK; MEXICO CITY;

                      ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

    CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

      RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

    CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/18/1993

          COMMENTS : ATTACHED CHRONOLOGY. BOX  59.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lee,

I have a three page document that may be the one you referenced. It has the curious mention of getting Ascham (Allen Dulles) to prevail on the Commission to alter photographs so not to be identifiable with Ruby. The document originated from Mexico City.

For some reason I am unable to attach images at the moment so I will sent it privately.

James

[Tim Gratz]

Many commentators believe that what was going on in Mexico City may hold the (a?) key to the assassination.

I have two suggestions re what was happening.

First, Oswald was trying to get a VISA into Cuba so a CIA assets (perhaps someone other than Oswald) could be infiltrated into Cuba either for general espionage purposes or for another assassination attempt.

Second, Oswald was being sent into Cuba so that, when he was framed for the assassination of Kennedy, the link to Castro would be even more overwhelming.

It is a good question whether Oswald himself was in the Soviet and/or Cuban embassies.

In the next few posts I am going to post some links to readings about LHO in Mexico City. I think every assassination researcher should read them.