Who was Saul?

[Harry J.Dean]

CIA likely began plans to eliminate Castro after he stated  he

was a Communist/Socialist etc;etc;. It was the summer of 1960 {June} when

I was 'cruely' interrogated at Havana HDQT by G2/DGI. I did not pick up any

hint of assassination concern, the same applied with U.S. Intelligence prior to

my going to Cuba. Cuban Intelligence was very concerned about the Invasion

they knew was coming, as it did soon enough in 1961. However assassination

could have, and likely was being 'considered' at that time by U.S. at higher official levels. (Harry Dean)

Thanks, Harry. That is interesting indeed.

From what I have been able to piece together, during the summer of 1960, Mario Tauler Sague and Armando Cubria Ramos at the behest of the CIA, were sent into Cuba to kill Castro. They were captured where as of April the 5th, 1974, Cubria was still in prison and suffering ill treatment.

In your opinion, if Sague was also captured, is there any other way he could have been in Mexico City during September of 1963 other than escaping his Cuban captors? For example, are you aware of any deals that may have seen his release?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

James

I can only guess, knowing nothing of Ramos and Sague assignment by CIA, it is

quite likely he may well have escaped, or turned?

It certainly scarry as hell to me thinking back from here about what may have

been my own fate, if Sague and Ramos had suceeded in killing Castro near our

almost exact time in Cuba. It would have been a quick intro. to ' The Wall ' for

any and all American suspects, especially. It is yet, 'even now', another fearful 'what if'.

Sorry am not able to be more helpful.

Harry

[Tim Gratz]

Please read Nodules 14 and 15 of the weberman web-site:

http://www.ajweberman.com/coupt5.htm

Edited February 16, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Also you should read what has been called "the Lopez report":

"The "thirteenth appendix" to the HSCA Report on the JFK assassination is a staff report entitled "Oswald, the CIA, and Mexico City." This report describes what the Committee learned about Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico City less than two months prior to the assassination. Questions it grapples with include why the CIA was apparently unable to obtain a photo of Oswald from any of its photographic surveillance stations (and instead produced a photo of a "Mystery Man" who was clearly not Oswald), whether Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City, and what credibility to attach to any of the indications and allegations of Communist conspiracy emanating from that city.

"The so-called "Lopez Report," written by staffers Dan Hardway and Edwin Lopez, was released in its present form in 1996, but remains redacted in several places. It is a good starting place for grappling with some of the many mysteries of the Mexico City affair. Newly released files have provided new information not present in this report. The LBJ taped phone conversations for instance, include starting corroboration for the claim that audio intercepts of an Oswald impersonator were listened to by FBI agents in Dallas while Oswald was in custody. Declassified testimony of David Phillips, the Tarasoff couple who translated the tapes for the CIA, and others illuminate some areas and deepen the mystery in others."

The "Lopez Report" is a good point of departure for a journey into this mysterious affair.

Here is a link to the Lopez report:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca...pt/contents.htm

Edited February 16, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

It is also worthwhile to read John Lewman's report to the 1999 Lancer Conference in Dallas. Here is the link:

http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman

Edited February 16, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Pat Speer]

By coincidence I just found this on EBAY

If you want it, it runs about $40 delivered and auction ends in 34 hours

(8 am Thursday Morning EST USA)

Shanet, the Lopez Report is available on the History-Matters website for free. I've read it and it's quite interesting. The obvious conclusion is that Oswald was impersonated in Mexico. The question remains why and by whom. Whenever this question was brought up to Helms, etc. they always used the expression "sources and methods." This is a half-assed way of acknowledging that they lied, while simultaneously claiming they did so for legitimate reasons.

When reading FBI reports, one frequently comes across terms such as "unimpeachable source" which is their own internal code for an illegal wiretap. The FBI would lie and say a wiretap was an informant. Well, it's my belief that the CIA in Mexico, which was allowed to wiretap, would do the opposite. When they received information from informants, they would turn around and say they received it via a wiretap. Since the CIA was at the height of its "Angleton-noia" in 1963, it makes perfect sense to me that when they received info via their informants at the Cuban and Russian embassies, they would protect them by creating a fake tape of the person who visited the embassy talking on the phone, and they would make sure that the transcript included all the pertinent information. This would protect their "sources and methods." This could explain why the transcribers of Oswald's tapes made the notation that he spoke in broken Russian on some of the tapes; it's not a coincidence that these were the tapes where he was almost undoubtedly impersonated, as these were recorded on dates where neither the Cuban or Russian employees who dealt with Oswald remember him calling. If you read the transcripts of these calls you will see that he gives WAY MORE information than is necessary on these tapes, and that he makes a point of mentioning that he met with Kostikov, the KGB head of wet jobs for the Western Hemisphere.

In summary, Oswald was impersonated in Mexico, but it may not have been part of an assassination plot.

[James Richards]

I can only guess, knowing nothing of Ramos and Sague assignment by CIA, it is

quite likely he may well have escaped, or turned?

It certainly scarry as hell to me thinking back from here about what may have

been my own fate, if Sague and Ramos had suceeded in killing Castro near our

almost exact time in Cuba. It would have been a quick intro. to ' The Wall ' for

any and all American suspects, especially. It is yet, 'even now', another fearful 'what if'.

Sorry am not able to be more helpful. (Harry Dean)

Harry,

Thanks for the reply. Well that certainly makes for some interesting speculation if Sague was turned.

I can only imagine how terrifying things were for you at the time and what a thin line operatives ultimately walked. Thanks for your thoughts and imput as I know it was an extremely difficult time.

James

[Tim Gratz]

If Saul was turned it does explain why he was no longer in Castro's prison.

Then again we have the McDonald book that says that Saul was helping to train for the BOP. The thesis of the McDonald book needs some discussion here.

Perhaps Saul had been "turned" even before the BOP.

One of Hemming's e-mails also mentions a link between Saul and the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Tim Gratz]

There is an interesting discussion of the "Mystery Man Photograph" on the Rex Bradford "History Matters" website.

Its address seems too long to link.

Just go to the History Matterrs web-site; it has a search feature; input "mystery man" and you should get there. It is Part V of "More Mexico Mysteries".

It discusses the CIA document James Richards mentioned on his Post #14 on this thread. It is a worthwhile read, IMO.

Edited February 18, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Greg Wagner]

Question for the panel of experts on this topic:

What motivation would Phillips have to lie, seemingly incriminating the Agency? Based on the photos the CIA was trying to pass off as Oswald, seems more likely that he was never really in Mexdico City.

Source: Plausible Denial, 82

With regard to LHO in Mexico City, David Atlee Phillips publicly stated, during a debate with Mark Lane at USC in 1977: "...but I will tell you this, that when the record comes out, we will find that there was never a photograph taken of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City. We will find out that Lee Harvey Oswald never visited, let me put it, that is a categorical statement, there, there, we will find out there is no evidence, first of all there was no proof of that. Second, there is no proof that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Soviet embassy." Lane also states that Colby was "livid" with Phillips that night at the post debate dinner.

[Antti Hynonen]

For a few more comments and thoughts on Saul, see this thread on the forum, from some time back.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=1116&hl=saul

Fellow Forum member Justin Martell tells us that a law enforcement guru by the name of Hugh McDonald has tracked down the man in the Mexico city photos and claims to have spoken to him. Further, McDonald claims that the man is called Saul.

According to Martell, this information is available in the book titled "Coincidence or Conspiracy?"

It seems that now two separate sources identify this man as Saul Sage (Sague). I believe the Yuriy Ivanovitch Moskalev story is a CIA disinformation attempt, merely because "there ain't nothin' Russian about the way that fellow looks".

[Pat Speer]

For a few more comments and thoughts on Saul, see this thread on the forum,  from some time back.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=1116&hl=saul

Fellow Forum member Justin Martell tells us that a law enforcement guru by the name of Hugh McDonald has tracked down the man in the Mexico city photos and claims to have spoken to him. Further, McDonald claims that the man is called Saul.

According to Martell, this information is available in the book titled "Coincidence or Conspiracy?"

It seems that now two separate sources identify this man as Saul Sage (Sague). I believe the Yuriy Ivanovitch Moskalev story is a CIA disinformation attempt, merely because "there ain't nothin' Russian about the way that fellow looks".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Antti, I think you're confused on this info. The name "Saul" was given to the mystery man by Hugh McDonald in his book "Appointment in Dallas." McDonald was a former Los Angeles County Chief of Detectives and claimed a relationship with military intelligence and the CIA. Hemming's calling this man "Saul" is just him being cute. "Saul" was not his real name. McDonald did indeed claim to have tracked down the man and to have spoken with him. The story recounted by Saul is not all that believable, however. There is reference to McDonald in the HSCA's report on De Mohrenschildt, indicating that McDonald did indeed conduct his own investigation and that his story is not all b.s. McDonald eventually came to theorize that LBJ cut a deal with Russian hard-liners, and that the Russians, with Oswald's Mexico City travel companion Albert Osborne as operative, set up the assassination. I think McDonald was well-intentioned but was misled by "Saul" and some of his CIA contacts.

[Gary Buell]

CIA document #104-10124-10103 refers to a request for

a QKEnchant clearance for Hugh Chisholm McDonald, the

author of the book Appointment in Dallas. The memo is

dated 8/3/76, after that book came out. This memo

states:

“Office of Security records do not support Mr.

McDonald’s claims to Agency employment or involvement

in clandestine operations. From 1955 to circa 1061 Mr.

McDonald, as an independent contractor, assisted

Technical Service Division/Authentication Division/DDP

in the development of the Identikit..” In May 1969

McDonald formed World Associates, Inc. The memo

states:

“In June 1969 Central Cover Staff evidenced interest

in Mr. McDonald under Project QKENCHANT. Commencing in

January 1970 Mr. McDonald initiated meetings with the

Domestic Contact Service suggesting that his firm,

World Associates, Inc., soon to be involved

internationally in bank security, do not reflect the

outcome of the Domestic Contact Service and the

Central Cover Staff interests.”

[Pat Speer]

“In June 1969 Central Cover Staff evidenced interest

in Mr. McDonald under Project QKENCHANT. Commencing in

January 1970 Mr. McDonald initiated meetings with the

Domestic Contact Service suggesting that his firm,

World Associates, Inc., soon to be involved

internationally in bank security, do not reflect the

outcome of the Domestic Contact Service and the

Central Cover Staff interests.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does this paragraph make sense? Is there a sentence missing? Broken down it says he met with them and told them his firm does not reflect the outcome of the DCS' interests. If it means he told them his firm is not to co-operate with the DCS, why not just say so?

[Gary Buell]

“In June 1969 Central Cover Staff evidenced interest

in Mr. McDonald under Project QKENCHANT. Commencing in

January 1970 Mr. McDonald initiated meetings with the

Domestic Contact Service suggesting that his firm,

World Associates, Inc., soon to be involved

internationally in bank security, do not reflect the

outcome of the Domestic Contact Service and the

Central Cover Staff interests.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does this paragraph make sense? Is there a sentence missing? Broken down it says he met with them and told them his firm does not reflect the outcome of the DCS' interests. If it means he told them his firm is not to co-operate with the DCS, why not just say so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oops! It does look like there is a missing sentence there. I will try to dig up the document and post a correction. I have been trying to figure out just what QK/Enchant was.

[Tim Gratz]

Here is a link to the testimony of Richard Helms before the House Select Committee on Assassinations. His testimony re the photo of the Mexico City Mystery Man begins on page 53 of the transcript (which is page 61 on the web-site):

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsc...Helms_0061a.htm

Edited March 25, 2005 by Tim Gratz