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Operation on the Knoll - Theory


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Here's an interesting photo, which I would really like to timestamp - I'm sure you have seen it before, and there's quite a lot to look at. 

- There's what appear to be 3 individuals behind the fence at left. 

- 'Hammerman' is in the foreground.  He was working nearby and came over to see what was going on - decided to carry his hammer with him in case there was something to nail I guess. 

- Why are the people gathered in the street at that location?  Is there something in the street? 

- In the background, to our right, at the edge of the wall, we have what appears to be 2 individuals [using the shadow  :rolleyes: ) - a man and a woman.  Maybe of no consequence [save for his baggy pants which look like the man in the red shirt who was standing on the stairs earlier], but they seem to be in fairly close proximity to the man standing behind the wall, who has on an interesting hat. 

- If you focus in on him, is there more than one person?  Is the man with the hat standing behind someone?  Someone with a camera?

- The small crowd in the background is interesting - but again, I don't know that it has any bearing.  One man can be seen pointing towards the TSBD.  Is he pointing at something he is seeing at the time the photo was taken?

- The fenceline, when enhanced, appears crooked.  Why is that? 

- At the corner of the fence there appears to be an object of some kind.  Is it a person?  What would a person be doing sitting in the grass there?

Many questions.

Hi Lee,

I believe at least one witness told us that a crowd started to gather around the policeman's motorcycle on Elm St(sorry I cannot pinpoint the source atm).

For some reason I had a good idea that it was Haygood's cycle this witness was talking about.

If you look at Haygood's testimony, he mentions that after getting back to his bike that people came up to him & started talking.

So I believe this may well be what we are seeing here.

In the same exchange with Belin;

Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.

Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/haygood.htm

So I would say somewhere around 4-6 mins after the shooting for that photo.

I think this one was taken just seconds before.

Is that our hammerman looking to cross the street?

Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up.

His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward.

Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD?

Good stuff.

Big thankyou for the "Marguerite on the knoll" photo, where's it from?

Alan

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One more try - seems to be working now?

Alan,

Thanks and great stuff. I'd agree with Robin - nice catch on Hammerman. Looks like our Hammerman is looking to make his crossing, and be captured on Film by Allen. The Hertz Clock is just about illegible, but I bet we could read it if we tried - 12:37?

I agree with your observation concerning the man in the foreground. Why is this man permitted to be picking around in the grass in an area that appears to be secured? I thought I had read someplace, as relates to the arrival of the 'mystery man' [whom, IMO has never been properly identified - looks more like EH Hunt to me than the old tramp] that the area where the object that appeared to be a .45 caliber round was secured and guarded until it was removed?

I lifted that Marguerite steam pipe image from 'Confidential Detective Magazine' issued in 1964. There are a few others that may be worth posting from it. The one observation I made before [but lost] was the fact that the Moorman photo, Number 5, was printed in reverse. At first glance, it makes one feel that the photo was taken from the opposite side of Elm. Why? How is it possible to make such an error? I'm sure there's an easy explanation for this - as usual. I certainly found it odd - like finding a counterfeit bill in a stack of money.

Thanks very much for your observation on the Motorcycle - makes a great deal of sense to me now. I'm sure you are right.

One more observation concerning this interesting photo you posted - the Charles Roberts observation from the Press Bus as related to a man with a camera ["but don't ask me what kind of camera"] hurrying away up the stairs with his head ducked down as if he were being fired upon.

The guy at the retaining wall - I assume he is standing on the bench.

What's taking place on the stairs? I tried to interpolate it and enhance it, but it just breaks down too easily.

- lee

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Here's an interesting photo, which I would really like to timestamp - I'm sure you have seen it before, and there's quite a lot to look at. 

- There's what appear to be 3 individuals behind the fence at left. 

- 'Hammerman' is in the foreground.  He was working nearby and came over to see what was going on - decided to carry his hammer with him in case there was something to nail I guess. 

- Why are the people gathered in the street at that location?  Is there something in the street? 

- In the background, to our right, at the edge of the wall, we have what appears to be 2 individuals [using the shadow  :rolleyes: ) - a man and a woman.  Maybe of no consequence [save for his baggy pants which look like the man in the red shirt who was standing on the stairs earlier], but they seem to be in fairly close proximity to the man standing behind the wall, who has on an interesting hat. 

- If you focus in on him, is there more than one person?  Is the man with the hat standing behind someone?  Someone with a camera?

- The small crowd in the background is interesting - but again, I don't know that it has any bearing.  One man can be seen pointing towards the TSBD.  Is he pointing at something he is seeing at the time the photo was taken?

- The fenceline, when enhanced, appears crooked.  Why is that? 

- At the corner of the fence there appears to be an object of some kind.  Is it a person?  What would a person be doing sitting in the grass there?

Many questions.

Hi Lee,

I believe at least one witness told us that a crowd started to gather around the policeman's motorcycle on Elm St(sorry I cannot pinpoint the source atm).

For some reason I had a good idea that it was Haygood's cycle this witness was talking about.

If you look at Haygood's testimony, he mentions that after getting back to his bike that people came up to him & started talking.

So I believe this may well be what we are seeing here.

In the same exchange with Belin;

Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.

Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/haygood.htm

So I would say somewhere around 4-6 mins after the shooting for that photo.

I think this one was taken just seconds before.

Is that our hammerman looking to cross the street?

Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up.

His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward.

Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD?

Good stuff.

Big thankyou for the "Marguerite on the knoll" photo, where's it from?

Alan

********

Hi Alan:

Long time, hope all is well....

The first photo that you referred to on the previous page was taken by William Allen ...of the Dallas Times Herald...

This one you have posted is Jim Murray's ( he was freelancing that day) seventh and last and the clock states 12.40....his first in the series was taken at 12.39...

The similarities of the Murray and Allen photos have caused confusion at times amongst the researchers..as they were taken at the same time....

Trask pages 497 to page 499.....

B :tomatoes

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Hi Lee:

""I agree with your observation concerning the man in the foreground. Why is this man permitted to be picking around in the grass in an area that appears to be secured? I thought I had read someplace, as relates to the arrival of the 'mystery man' [whom, IMO has never been properly identified - looks more like EH Hunt to me than the old tramp] that the area where the object that appeared to be a .45 caliber round was secured and guarded until it was removed.""

Re the above information...for your info.....recall the Murray photo that you posted with the officer pointing to the TSBD window....well that photo has been cropped, I have not got access as I am on the lap.....but the clock has been cropped off the top and the clock states 12.39...

These photos of Murray and Allen indicate interest on part of the officers at this spot three feet to the west of the rectanglular concrete frame surrounding the manhole....

In the grass....in Dec. 63...New Republic by Richard Dudman...in his article he stated that a police inspector had told him,that upon entering the area at the side of the street where the President had been shot ,they had"....found another bullet in the grass."....

Officer Foster re WC....stated that they "found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.."..at the concrete corner of the manhole cover and richocheted out." ...

An examination of the original Murray negatives show an area of turf darker than the surrounding grass...The Murray photo shows no identifiable bullet..when asked 33 years later, Murray stated.." At the time I was photographing ,my honest opinion, was that it looked like there had been heel marks and something like a spike heel had come out of the dirt..and created a little mound of damp earth...I certainly didn't see any bullets...the later speculation , and I'm willing to believe it, is that the mound was brain matter from Kennedy's skull..It could well have been tissue. It was dark...muddy color...nothing to suggest brains or blood." The photos are too inconclusive to be able to tell us what if anything was picked up off of the ground..

The unknown man dressed in the suit has been tentatively identified by some recent researchers as Agent Robert M.Barrett...

Trask....The Free-Lancer chapter.... :rolleyes:

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Hi Lee:

""I agree with your observation concerning the man in the foreground. Why is this man permitted to be picking around in the grass in an area that appears to be secured? I thought I had read someplace, as relates to the arrival of the 'mystery man' [whom, IMO has never been properly identified - looks more like EH Hunt to me than the old tramp] that the area where the object that appeared to be a .45 caliber round was secured and guarded until it was removed.""

Re the above information...for your info.....recall the Murray photo that you posted with the officer pointing to the TSBD window....well that photo has been cropped, I have not got access as I am on the lap.....but the clock has been cropped off the top and the clock states 12.39...

These photos of Murray and Allen indicate interest on part of the officers at this spot three feet to the west of the rectanglular concrete frame surrounding the manhole....

In the grass....in Dec. 63...New Republic by Richard Dudman...in his article he stated that a police inspector had told him,that upon entering the area at the side of the street where the President had been shot ,they had"....found another bullet in the grass."....

Officer Foster re WC....stated that they "found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.."..at the concrete corner of the manhole cover and richocheted out." ...

An examination of the original Murray negatives show an area of turf darker than the surrounding grass...The Murray photo shows no identifiable bullet..when asked 33 years later, Murray stated.." At the time I was photographing ,my honest opinion, was that it looked like there had been heel marks and something like a spike heel had come out of the dirt..and created a little mound of damp earth...I certainly didn't see any bullets...the later speculation , and I'm willing to believe it, is that the mound was brain matter from Kennedy's skull..It could well have been tissue. It was dark...muddy color...nothing to suggest brains or blood."  The photos are too inconclusive to be able to tell us what if anything was picked up off of the ground..

The unknown man dressed in the suit has been tentatively identified by some recent researchers as Agent Robert M.Barrett...

Trask....The Free-Lancer chapter.... :)

Hi Bernice.

Great information, thanks.

I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image.

I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination.

Edited by Robin Unger
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Robin: "Hi Bernice.

Great information, thanks.

I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image.

I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination."

*********************

Hi Robin:

Here is the photo it is Murray's first , the clock states 12.39 , also shows the temperature as being 66 degrees in others......the clock turns up dark when posting on the web....they are all available in "POTP" and also "That Day In Dallas" and very clear...seeing this is 9 minutes after,I perhaps would not count on the windows being as they were at the time of the shooting....some may have been shut while the DPD and or opened others...but it is always good to look...and check..

B....

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Robin: "Hi Bernice.

Great information, thanks.

I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image.

I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination."

*********************

Hi Robin:

Here is the photo it is Murray's first , the clock states 12.39 , also shows the temperature as being 66 degrees in others......the clock turns up dark when posting on the web....they are all available in "POTP" and also "That Day In Dallas" and very clear...seeing this is 9 minutes after,I perhaps would not count on the windows being as they were at the time of the shooting....some may have been shut while the DPD and or opened others...but it is always good to look...and check..

B....

Thanks Bernice.

Yes that image appears to be the same as the one i posted in my thread (Furrows in the grass)

Thanks again.

furrow.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
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I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers

searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes

after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker

and he was by the stairs and elevators.

One other option for the fifth floor were the three men there who stated

they ran to the west side of the 5th floor to watch what was happeing

on the knoll/fence.

Sort of strange behavior given their later statements about being

aware of a shooter above them on the sixth floor....common sense

would suggest going into hiding....not rushing to the far end of the

building and possibly being seen by the exiting gunman.

In any event, if anything - given their remarks - they would have been

opening windows on the west end of the fifth floor for a better view.

P.S. one time reference for when officers might have been first opening

windows is in POTP - it shows a senior DPD officer leaning out a window

and yelling down that they have found something in the "snipers nest"

area just to his left.

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P.S. one time reference for when officers might have been first opening windows is in POTP - it shows a senior DPD officer leaning out a window

and yelling down that they have found something in the "snipers nest"

area just to his left. (Larry Hancock)

I don't have POTP so I'm not sure the image Larry refers to, but there is this one below.

James

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P.S.  one time reference for when officers might have been first opening windows is in POTP - it shows a senior DPD officer leaning out a window

and yelling down that they have found something in the "snipers nest"

area just to his left. (Larry Hancock)

I don't have POTP so I'm not sure the image Larry refers to, but there is this one below.

James

Thanks Larry.

Good information, do you have a time stamp on the Alyea film.

James great pic, good view of the pergola.

Alyea Frame:

Alyea1.jpg

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My next question is, if they new that the assassin had been seen and identified shooting out of the east end of the building, then what are all these cops doing congregated around the west end of the building.

Edited by Robin Unger
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Robin, on page 102 of That Day in Dallas, Trask has a photo of Hill

leaning out the window and time stamps the photo as "shortly afer 1:00 pm".

My recollection of talking to Alyea is that they reached the snipers nest

area and he starting filiming there about 1 o'clock so that seems to fit.

My impression is that officers would have reached the windows on the sixth

floor perhaps around 12:55 but I don't think they would have changed the

positioning of any of them until afer 1pm.

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""Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up.

His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward.

Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD.""

Alan

***************

Alan:

In another of Murray's the man bending over can been seen standing, he is of a dark complextion and is dressed as one of the custodians...

BTW: Murray was continually all over Dealey for a long period of time after the assn he seems to have gotten an amazing collection of photographs....

***************

Larry :

""I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers

searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes

after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker

and he was by the stairs and elevators.

One other option for the fifth floor were the three men there who stated

they ran to the west side of the 5th floor to watch what was happeing

on the knoll/fence.

Sort of strange behavior given their later statements about being

aware of a shooter above them on the sixth floor....common sense

would suggest going into hiding....not rushing to the far end of the

building and possibly being seen by the exiting gunman.

In any event, if anything - given their remarks - they would have been

opening windows on the west end of the fifth floor for a better view.

P.S. one time reference for when officers might have been first opening

windows is in POTP - it shows a senior DPD officer leaning out a window

and yelling down that they have found something in the "snipers nest"

area just to his left.""

*********

Hi Larry:

In reply to your P.S:

This again is a Jim Murray photo....it was taken shortly

after 1 pm..and shows "Dallas Police Sgt.Gerry Hill...leaning out of a sixth floor window ,pointing to the corner window where the sniper location and spent shell

casings had been found moments before....."That Day In Dallas"...

Larry.....""I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers

searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes

after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker

and he was by the stairs and elevators.""

Recall Tom Alyea...working for WFAA...an affiliate of ABC....He was on his way back from being in Fort Worth, they were on Commerce St.....and listening to to the parade coverage on the radio when they heard the WFAA announcer break in that shots had been fired at the Presidential motorcade...he jumped out of the car and starting running....he began filming as he ran across Main..he saw no police ,people were running towards the railroad tracks , and others towards the monument, ( pegola) he figured nothing going on and ran up Elm and Houston...and saw a little activity at the intersection....he noticed several cops by now and one man looking up at the TSBD....He filmed the entrance as six or seven plainclothesmen rushed in through the TSBD doors..and he followed unchallenged with Dallas M.N. Kent Biffle right behind him....They got in and were locked in....immediately...this was between 12.34 and 12.36 ..they heard a fellow say..."Shut the door! Lock it ! ... no one in and no one out.."

He states various officers and plainclothesmen were in the TSBD..looking for a culprit or evidence...The search was unco-ordinated as they went scattering and scurrying amongst the floors....this was before the large scale uniformed police response to the police dispatch orders....Dep Luke Mooney had made a cursory exam of the second floor , then took the stairs up meeting other officers coming down. He stopped at the 6 th floor criss-crossing it and checking the fire escape ...then went up to the seventh floor,looking there with officers Webster and Vickery..They peered there into the stairway to the attic but it was pitched black and they decided to wait for flood lights ( which the Fire Dept brought, they also brought portable lights)..

Mooney then went back down to the 6 th floor...and all this time Alyea was running around following them and filming....he went down and followed Mooney ahead of Vickery and Webster...They came down right behind him to the 6th...Alyea stated in an interview in 64....He thought there was going to be a gunfight....First we went to the fifth floor,no one was sure of where the shots had come from..they then went to the 6th and then the 7th....He filmed all ,looking for a suspect..the men crawled

over and between huge piles of boxes..They climbed up into ceiling ducts and similar places where a man might hide...He states the mood was so tense that, if someone had dropped a book ,he was sure that 15 bullets would have been shot in that direction.....Sheriff Bill Decker arrived about 12.58 from the Trade Mart..he remained outside while the Police officials went in,and attempting to tighten up the situation he then ordered it sealed....Fritz and his companions "... took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and secured the building to see if we could find him.."...thinking the culprit could possibley be still inside....

It was shortly after that ...that Mooney, having left and then come back a second time??...searched the 6 th floor again , he stated.."I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building and I saw these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there, and I squeezed between two ..and the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there....that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up ,looked to be a rest for the weapon."...Mooney then called out, they came running ...Around 3.00 pm or so knowing he was the only news cameraman present he knew he needed film and also to get out what he had...On finding a phone within the building he called WFAA and requested a fresh can of film for an exposed....Photographer Ron Reiland arrived , but he could not get in...he signaled to him to throw the new film to him and he threw the exposed to Ron...he took off and Officer watching coud not leave his post to stop him...Aylea shot 500 feet of film that day....He then managed to get out of the building around 3.15pm...The Crime scene crew stayed into the evening...

Information..."POTP"..."That Day In Dallas" and Alyea..of course..

B ;)

Edited by Bernice Moore
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