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Operation on the Knoll - Theory


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Robin,  on page 102 of That Day in Dallas, Trask has a photo of Hill

leaning out the window and time stamps the photo as "shortly afer 1:00 pm".

My recollection of talking to Alyea is that they reached the snipers nest

area and he starting filiming there about 1 o'clock so that seems to fit.

My impression is that officers would have reached the windows on the sixth

floor perhaps around 12:55 but I don't think they would have changed the

positioning of any of them until afer 1pm.

Thanks Larry.

That is a great help when i am trying to sort in my mind, in which order the photo's and film were taken, in relation to the time the assassination took place, and Baker entering the TSBD which would have been approx 12:40pm

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Hi Alan:

      Long time, hope all is well....

The first photo that you referred to on the previous page was taken by William Allen ...of the Dallas Times Herald...

This one you have posted is Jim Murray's ( he was freelancing that day) seventh and last and the clock states 12.40....his first in the series was taken at 12.39...

The similarities of the Murray and Allen photos have caused confusion at times amongst the researchers..as they were taken at the same time....

Trask pages 497 to page 499.....

:)

Thank you Bernice,

only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ...... :)

Thanks for the reference to POTP.

Although I love some of the information in that book, I still can't get over what a bad idea it was to replicate all those photo's at a size that impedes research.

Anyroad, now that we know that those Murray & Allen photo's were taken ten minutes after the shooting, it suggests that Haygood was either a) mistaken about the time he left the street for the TSBD or B) he's already left the street & the crowd we see are just continuing to stand in the same place after he left.

As far as the builder or "Hammerman" I mentioned in that Murray photo Bernice, he is not the black guy bent over but the one just looking to cross the street.

He is better seen of course, in Lee's print of that Allen photo but here is a close up of him from that Murray POTP print (Yes Richard, those pictures really are a "pain") /sigh.

I have problems with him being a builder because of his soft shoes & "ankle swinging" pants, not against the law but strange to my eye & also, if that's really a hammer(it's too hard for me to tell) & he's really a builder, then where is his tool belt or wide pocket to put his hammer into?

Looks odd to me. Casual labour at best imo, hence my reference to the floor laying team in the TSBD.

Now if this guy was the one who told Haygood where the shots came from.... :)

Here's one for Lee.

If you look closely at the first close up I posted above I think you can see the bench there behind the wall, anyone else see it?

But Lee, you mentioned the guy at the corner of the wall in the hat, I don't think he was standing on anything like you are suggesting, that's a really short wall on the otherside & we could easilly see someone's waistline from Elm St if they were stood right next to the wall.

I think I might have a good candidate for who it is though.

He's a strange looking character to say the least.

Could this be a disguise or was he just a freaky dresser?

Take a look.

Fareeaky!

Alan

Edited by Alan Healy
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Robin: "Hi Bernice.

Great information, thanks.

I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image.

I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination."

*********************

Hi Robin:

Here is the photo it is Murray's first , the clock states 12.39 , also shows the temperature as being 66 degrees in others......the clock turns up dark when posting on the web....they are all available in "POTP" and also "That Day In Dallas" and very clear...seeing this is 9 minutes after,I perhaps would not count on the windows being as they were at the time of the shooting....some may have been shut while the DPD and or opened others...but it is always good to look...and check..

B....

Thanks Bernice.

Yes that image appears to be the same as the one i posted in my thread (Furrows in the grass)

Thanks again.

furrow.jpg

************************

Hi Robin:

I checked and it was a cropped copy that Lee posted but on another Forum..

sorry for the confusion,

Thanks.....B

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Hi Alan:

      Long time, hope all is well....

The first photo that you referred to on the previous page was taken by William Allen ...of the Dallas Times Herald...

This one you have posted is Jim Murray's ( he was freelancing that day) seventh and last and the clock states 12.40....his first in the series was taken at 12.39...

The similarities of the Murray and Allen photos have caused confusion at times amongst the researchers..as they were taken at the same time....

Trask pages 497 to page 499.....

B)

Thank you Bernice,

only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ...... :)

Thanks for the reference to POTP.

Although I love some of the information in that book, I still can't get over what a bad idea it was to replicate all those photo's at a size that impedes research.

Anyroad, now that we know that those Murray & Allen photo's were taken ten minutes after the shooting, it suggests that Haygood was either a) mistaken about the time he left the street for the TSBD or B) he's already left the street & the crowd we see are just continuing to stand in the same place after he left.

As far as the builder or "Hammerman" I mentioned in that Murray photo Bernice, he is not the black guy bent over but the one just looking to cross the street.

He is better seen of course, in Lee's print of that Allen photo but here is a close up of him from that Murray POTP print (Yes Richard, those pictures really are a "pain") /sigh.

I have problems with him being a builder because of his soft shoes & "ankle swinging" pants, not against the law but strange to my eye & also, if that's really a hammer(it's too hard for me to tell) & he's really a builder, then where is his tool belt or wide pocket to put his hammer into?

Looks odd to me. Casual labour at best imo, hence my reference to the floor laying team in the TSBD.

Now if this guy was the one who told Haygood where the shots came from.... :)

Here's one for Lee.

If you look closely at the first close up I posted above I think you can see the bench there behind the wall, anyone else see it?

But Lee, you mentioned the guy at the corner of the wall in the hat, I don't think he was standing on anything like you are suggesting, that's a really short wall on the otherside & we could easilly see someone's waistline from Elm St if they were stood right next to the wall.

I think I might have a good candidate for who it is though.

He's a strange looking character to say the least.

Could this be a disguise or was he just a freaky dresser?

Take a look.

Fareeaky!

Alan

***************

Hi Alan:

"only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ...... :) ""

No we all do things such as this all the time, we miss much on the first glance, then say oops.. :)

Yes, I also wish the photo's and Trask's book were some 10xs larger..and those in colours, were presented as so.

From what I see in the photos, the crowds appear to have moved on relatively

quickly in some areas......and from what there is in print regarding such, though there does appear to be those two groups,one on the road, the Haygood area, and standing on the hill re the closest pergola to the TSBD....also I believe I have read where the authoritys moved them along eventually, those that lingered...and many were told to report to the DPD to give their statements, also perhaps when some people began to be taken into custody, many moved along and left a lot quicker than they normally would have....

No Hammerman is not the custodian bent over, I am well aware of, as you call him

"Hammerman" ,much time in the past has been spent on who he was, and his tool, in his hand or whatever..he more than likely was as you say just one of the workmen..in the area. He could have worked in a hardware store or been working on the TSBD new floor, for all we know. I think by this time, whomever the guilty were were long gone...I really cannot see them hanging around waiting to be arrested..but that is JMO..

I like the freaky guy, what is it.?? :)

Thanks for the come back..B.....

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Here's one for Lee.

If you look closely at the first close up I posted above I think you can see the bench there behind the wall, anyone else see it?

But Lee, you mentioned the guy at the corner of the wall in the hat, I don't think he was standing on anything like you are suggesting, that's a really short wall on the otherside & we could easilly see someone's waistline from Elm St if they were stood right next to the wall.

I think I might have a good candidate for who it is though.

He's a strange looking character to say the least.

Could this be a disguise or was he just a freaky dresser?

Take a look.

Fareeaky!

Alan

***************

Dumbfounded Alan!

I can't post photos at present - don't know why not. The resemblance of this man - specifically his hat, and the guy that I spent a long time chasing on the stairs, is simply incredible. 'Tightfitting light colored seacap' is what I called it. When I was originally working to peel back the tint on the stairs, many times I couldn't figure out what was going on - clearly the area has been masked and is also subject to blockiness - but I would always look for the guy's hat to provide orientation.

It figures that I can't upload images at the moment. The man I am referring to may be the same as the one in the Chevy that I had posted - credit to James Richards for that photo - the behind the fence scene. Take a look and see what you think.

The man standing next to the car in the behind the fence scene, IMO, bears a strong resemblance to what IMO is a 'man' -- at at the corner of the short extension behind the retaining wall, in Nix. I think I may have uploaded that somewhere also - if not in this thread elsewhere.

IMO, the 'light colored tight fitting seacap man's role was either to film [he's the one in Moorman that I called 'Stepman' before I realized that there were more than one] or he was a spotter. I have a few nice close-ups and enhancements of the device he is holding - but of course, it's not good enough to make any real judgement calls on.

Out of sheer perverse curiousity - does anyone have a photo of what a spotter's scope would have looked like in 1963? This would be very helpful, for me at any rate.

- lee

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Since I can't post photos, I may as well spell out what I am theorizing here.

Mostly hypothetical.

Scenario:

Marilyn Sitzman's story. If there was a black couple behind the retaining wall, and eating their lunch prior to the arrival of the motorcade, they certainly did not run off after the shots were fired, smashing coke bottles - no photo of any black couple has even been seen to my knowledge, and when I enhance that area in Nix, I see many more people than 2. Emmett saw 'a whole bunch.'

There was no evidence of broken glass in any photos - nor any eye witness accounts - however we have an intact Coke bottle on the retaining wall. What is the sound of a weapon firing with a silencer in 1963 - any chance someone may have a .wav file that they could attach? :)

I am really starting to believe that the knoll operation went something like this: The area was secured, most operatives were out of sight behind the retaining wall. The motorcade began it's approach - as per radio signal, everyone took up their respective positions. Several had radios, others had cameras. IMO, the area had 2 shooters - one positioned behind the retaining wall, and the other in front of the fence, at the left of the stairs, at the tree, on the North side of Elm. As per Culligan, the shooters had a team whose job was to provide protection and create a diversion as required.

I see the camera's being used for multiple reasons, which I have detailed elsewhere, but a quick summary: Propoganda, Insurance, creation of a record, Training and Camoflauge. The shooters are literally surrounded in a group of men with cameras. As per the witness accounts, we know some of these men were equipped with phony SS IDs.

I haven't been able to confirm this, but I still feel it's highly likely: All shooters were located in position where they would have a visual on DCM. Spokes of a wheel with DCM at the center.

Hulet on Culligan [A Paper on JFK & CIA & Executive Action, The Artful Nuance, 1991], says that there was a shooter on the TOP floor of the building to the left of the TSBD - Hulet then goes on to place X's at the County Records building - I don't know about that. I have an email into Mr. Hulet asking him how the X's were placed, as one of his x's is very close to the position of the North Peristyle - another story for another time. On the North knoll he has the 'x' located in the area of the retaining wall - not behind the fence.

There's that facinating document, the Bray document, that Robin Unger posted, which says that a GSAP was deployed by the shooter in the TSBD, and a film was made of the actual event through the crosshairs - interesting to note the FBI re-enactment photos.

I believe a similar device may have been employed at the area near the stairs, as per some of the enhancements I have done in Muchmore - I'm willing to state right now that of course I could be totally mistaken - it's an enlarged enhancement of a very small area, and I sent it off to experts in the field of SMGs, and they said the image was too deteriorated to make any judgement calls. But I did spend many, many, many hours searching through every semi-automatic and automatic weapon that was in existence in 1963, trying to find a match for the object -- I finally concluded that it must be a camera. Now I am again unsure. What about surrounding the shooter with a group of cameramen, have him hold some bizarre type sniper's weapon, with a weird looking silencer, and a GSAP mounted on top? Sort of looks like a camera anyway?

What would have been the point of having this camera team that close to the action anyway? Zoom lenses would have been more than sufficient, from a safe distance away. Camoflauge is the only thing that makes sense for me. Certainly would hide the use of a scope.

Anyway, my theory continues that yes, there was something that took place behind the fence. There's the white smoke and plenty of it and a loud report. Let's look at what many have believed was a 'poser' in the East Window of the TSBD. WHY was it so important to ask how many shots were heard? Was there really even a gun back there? IMO, this may well have been simply a diversion, to draw the focus away from the stairs and the retaining wall. It's been suggested that it may have been a firecracker - sounds good to me - loud noise, white smoke, etc. There's also the story that Stone couldn't get the smoke effect he needed for JFK without the use of bellows.

I am still struggling with the idea that it's a) the man near the tree, in the grass, at the left [our left - looking from Main street] of the stairs - or :) it's one of the men on the stairs, for the fatal headshot. I think that Bill Newman saw Kennedy get smacked across the Lincoln like he was hit with a baseball bat - he was hit from a shot fired from roughly 40 feet away. I think that Charles Roberts saw this guy taking off afterwards, head ducked down, with his 'don't ask me what kind of camera it was.'

Hugh McDonald apparently maintained that 'Saul' was positioned on the top floor of the building to the left, and across the street from the TSBD [that is DalTex - not County Records]. Part of his job was to take out the sniper in the 6th floor window. The SS men were supposed to fire in the air [which is an amazing story given Jean Hill's comments], and then Saul would whack 'Harvey' leaving behind a nice neat little package - only, who would have believed it? The SS were so good as to be able to hit a man in the far window on the 6th floor of an office building from a moving vehicle?

So instead, let's take our 'first' Patsy [whom is interestingly referred to by Saul as 'Harvey' - I haven't finished Armstrong's book, and don't know enough to formulate any solid opinions on that matter], and place him on the knoll instead. I don't believe he is the shooter, but that's speculation. He is on the knoll, and Kennedy's head has just exploded. On comes the final shot - right to the Patsy on the knoll. Maybe the SS men do shoot in the air at this point - Jean Hill says 6 shots were fired, as per what she heard from her position.

Anyway, the trouble starts because, like many things that were botched that day - it's not a very good hit, and, bleeding like a stuck pig, our first Patsy makes his way to the TSBD of all places, where we lose him, along with history. All we have are the witness accounts of pools of blood, a hunk of hairy flesh [Couch] and missing photographs of the pools - taken by a photographer from the Dallas Morning News. Let's say that there is such an individual - he probably has ties to Cuba, and as I suggested elsewhere, maybe he's the G2 rat infiltrator, and he's been played 'Oswald style,' as part of the plan to leave behind at least one corpse with a hot trail to Castro. I'd say that there would have to be a very good connection between this individual and LHO. But then the supreme idiocy of Single Bullet Theory goes into operation, and the job instead is to make everyone disappear, manipulate the witnesses, omit the witnesses, play games with the medical record and the photos and films.

Why so many men behind the retaining wall? Same role - to protect the other shooter, who IMO, made the throat shot.

Red Shirt man is an operative - he's either a signal man, coordinated with his partner across the street, Gin and Tonic Man, or he's got a remote controlled detonating device to stop that Lincoln at all costs, should the exercise have failed. He jumps up and down because the target was successfully eliminated.

The Phantom is a paint job. Emmett Hudson's testimony supports no such person. The young man Emmett refers to is the red shirt man/operative. Photographic analysis says he is a phony. What's his role? I used to suspect that perhaps he was taking the place of 'light colored tight fitting seacap man on the stairs - they painted him in immediately, as the photo had to go out over the wire. Then I was thinking that perhaps he was introduced to hide what was going on immediately behind him - still a good possibility. I also thought that perhaps he was supposed to block a possible trajectory - still possible. But now I am leaning towards their efforts at adding a figure due to their need to remove all evidence of a man struck by a bullet, fired from one of the office buildings.

Sorry = let me close with this observation. Take the headshot as we see it in Muchmore. Create a window of opportunity for the shooter, based upon the location of Kennedy, in relationship to all of the other bystanders, including Jackie, Mary Moorman, Jean Hill and the Motorcycle Cops. If you believe that it's a frontal hit to Kennedy's right temple, fired at a bit of elevation, with a rear exit - follow it back to the area of the tree and the stairs.

Worth noting:

Testimony of Jean Hill, Warren Report:

Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera.....

Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. Specter.

Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. Hill.

I didn't go back down there.

Mr. Specter.

Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. Hill.

As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that?

Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I don't know.

I don't have the Dallas Times Herald - but if she is referring to the concrete by the manhole cover, this is approximately [using Cutler's map] an additional 50 feet further down Elm, heading towards the underpass.

Anyway, that's where my thinking has led me to date. Tough sell all around. Not much to work with.

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Since I can't post photos, I may as well spell out what I am theorizing here.

Mostly hypothetical. 

Scenario:

Marilyn Sitzman's story.  If there was a black couple behind the retaining wall, and eating their lunch prior to the arrival of the motorcade, they certainly did not run off after the shots were fired, smashing coke bottles - no photo of any black couple has even been seen to my knowledge, and when I enhance that area in Nix, I see many more people than 2.  Emmett saw 'a whole bunch.'

There was no evidence of broken glass in any photos - nor any eye witness accounts - however we have an intact Coke bottle on the retaining wall.  What is the sound of a weapon firing with a silencer in 1963 - any chance someone may have a .wav file that they could attach?  ;)

I am really starting to believe that the knoll operation went something like this:  The area was secured, most operatives were out of sight behind the retaining wall.  The motorcade began it's approach - as per radio signal, everyone took up their respective positions.  Several had radios, others had cameras.  IMO, the area had 2 shooters - one positioned behind the retaining wall, and the other in front of the fence, at the left of the stairs, at the tree, on the North side of Elm.  As per Culligan, the shooters had a team whose job was to provide protection and create a diversion as required.

I see the camera's being used for multiple reasons, which I have detailed elsewhere, but a quick summary:  Propoganda, Insurance, creation of a record, Training and Camoflauge.  The shooters are literally surrounded in a group of men with cameras.  As per the witness accounts, we know some of these men were equipped with phony SS IDs.

I haven't been able to confirm this, but I still feel it's highly likely:  All shooters were located in position where they would have a visual on DCM.  Spokes of a wheel with DCM at the center.

Hulet on Culligan [A Paper on JFK & CIA & Executive Action, The Artful Nuance, 1991], says that there was a shooter on the TOP floor of the building to the left of the TSBD - Hulet then goes on to place X's at the County Records building - I don't know about that.  I have an email into Mr. Hulet asking him how the X's were placed, as one of his x's is very close to the position of the North Peristyle - another story for another time.  On the North knoll he has the 'x' located in the area of the retaining wall - not behind the fence.

There's that facinating document, the Bray document, that Robin Unger posted, which says that a GSAP was deployed by the shooter in the TSBD, and a film was made of the actual event through the crosshairs - interesting to note the FBI re-enactment photos.

I believe a similar device may have been employed at the area near the stairs, as per some of the enhancements I have done in Muchmore - I'm willing to state right now that of course I could be totally mistaken - it's an enlarged enhancement of a very small area, and I sent it off to experts in the field of SMGs, and they said the image was too deteriorated to make any judgement calls.  But I did spend many, many, many hours searching through every semi-automatic and automatic weapon that was in existence in 1963, trying to find a match for the object -- I finally concluded that it must be a camera.  Now I am again unsure.  What about surrounding the shooter with a group of cameramen, have him hold some bizarre type sniper's weapon, with a weird looking silencer, and a GSAP mounted on top?  Sort of looks like a camera anyway?

What would have been the point of having this camera team that close to the action anyway?  Zoom lenses would have been more than sufficient, from a safe distance away.  Camoflauge is the only thing that makes sense for me.  Certainly would hide the use of a scope.

Anyway, my theory continues that yes, there was something that took place behind the fence.  There's the white smoke and plenty of it and a loud report.  Let's look at what many have believed was a 'poser' in the East Window of the TSBD.  WHY was it so important to ask how many shots were heard?  Was there really even a gun back there?  IMO, this may well have been simply a diversion, to draw the focus away from the stairs and the retaining wall.  It's been suggested that it may have been a firecracker - sounds good to me - loud noise, white smoke, etc.  There's also the story that Stone couldn't get the smoke effect he needed for JFK without the use of bellows.

I am still struggling with the idea that it's a) the man near the tree, in the grass, at the left [our left - looking from Main street] of the stairs - or B) it's one of the men on the stairs, for the fatal headshot.  I think that Bill Newman saw Kennedy get smacked across the Lincoln like he was hit with a baseball bat - he was hit from a shot fired from roughly 40 feet away.  I think that Charles Roberts saw this guy taking off afterwards, head ducked down, with his 'don't ask me what kind of camera it was.' 

Hugh McDonald apparently maintained that 'Saul' was positioned on the top floor of the building to the left, and across the street from the TSBD [that is DalTex - not County Records].  Part of his job was to take out the sniper in the 6th floor window.  The SS men were supposed to fire in the air [which is an amazing story given Jean Hill's comments], and then Saul would whack 'Harvey' leaving behind a nice neat little package - only, who would have believed it?  The SS were so good as to be able to hit a man in the far window on the 6th floor of an office building from a moving vehicle?

So instead, let's take our 'first' Patsy [whom is interestingly referred to by Saul as 'Harvey' - I haven't finished Armstrong's book, and don't know enough to formulate any solid opinions on that matter], and place him on the knoll instead.  I don't believe he is the shooter, but that's speculation.  He is on the knoll, and Kennedy's head has just exploded.  On comes the final shot - right to the Patsy on the knoll.  Maybe the SS men do shoot in the air at this point - Jean Hill says 6 shots were fired, as per what she heard from her position. 

Anyway, the trouble starts because, like many things that were botched that day - it's not a very good hit, and, bleeding like a stuck pig, our first Patsy makes his way to the TSBD of all places, where we lose him, along with history.  All we have are the witness accounts of pools of blood, a hunk of hairy flesh [Couch] and missing photographs of the pools - taken by a photographer from the Dallas Morning News.  Let's say that there is such an individual - he probably has ties to Cuba, and as I suggested elsewhere, maybe he's the G2 rat infiltrator, and he's been played 'Oswald style,' as part of the plan to leave behind at least one corpse with a hot trail to Castro.  I'd say that there would have to be a very good connection between this individual and LHO.  But then the supreme idiocy of Single Bullet Theory goes into operation, and the job instead is to make everyone disappear, manipulate the witnesses, omit the witnesses, play games with the medical record and the photos and films. 

Why so many men behind the retaining wall?  Same role - to protect the other shooter, who IMO, made the throat shot. 

Red Shirt man is an operative - he's either a signal man, coordinated with his partner across the street, Gin and Tonic Man, or he's got a remote controlled detonating device to stop that Lincoln at all costs, should the exercise have failed.  He jumps up and down because the target was successfully eliminated. 

The Phantom is a paint job.  Emmett Hudson's testimony supports no such person.  The young man Emmett refers to is the red shirt man/operative.  Photographic analysis says he is a phony.  What's his role?  I used to suspect that perhaps he was taking the place of 'light colored tight fitting seacap man on the stairs - they painted him in immediately, as the photo had to go out over the wire.  Then I was thinking that perhaps he was introduced to hide what was going on immediately behind him - still a good possibility.  I also thought that perhaps he was supposed to block a possible trajectory - still possible.  But now I am leaning towards their efforts at adding a figure due to their need to remove all evidence of a man struck by a bullet, fired from one of the office buildings. 

Sorry = let me close with this observation.  Take the headshot as we see it in Muchmore.  Create a window of opportunity for the shooter, based upon the location of Kennedy, in relationship to all of the other bystanders, including Jackie, Mary Moorman, Jean Hill and the Motorcycle Cops.  If you believe that it's a frontal hit to Kennedy's right temple, fired at a bit of elevation, with a rear exit - follow it back to the area of the tree and the stairs. 

Worth noting:

Testimony of Jean Hill, Warren Report:

Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera.....

Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. Specter.

Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. Hill.

I didn't go back down there.

Mr. Specter.

Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. Hill.

As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that?

Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I don't know.

I don't have the Dallas Times Herald - but if she is referring to the concrete by the manhole cover, this is approximately [using Cutler's map] an additional 50 feet further down Elm, heading towards the underpass.

Anyway, that's where my thinking has led me to date. Tough sell all around. Not much to work with.

Hi Lee.

Here are your pics.

muchmore.jpg

n413whitec.JPG

submachinegun2.jpg

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Hi Alan:

From what I see in the photos, the crowds appear to have moved on relatively

quickly in some areas......and from what there is in print regarding such, though there does appear to be those two groups,one on the road, the Haygood area, and standing on the hill re the closest pergola to the TSBD....also I believe I have read where the authoritys moved them along eventually, those that lingered...and many were told to report to the DPD to give their statements, also perhaps when some people began to be taken into custody, many moved along and left a lot quicker than they normally would have....

No Hammerman is not the custodian bent over, I am well aware of, as you call him

"Hammerman" ,much time in the past has been spent on who he was, and his tool, in his hand or whatever..he more than likely was as you say just one of the workmen..in the area. He could have worked in a hardware store or been working on the TSBD new floor, for all we know. I think by this time, whomever the guilty were were long gone...I really cannot see them hanging around waiting to be arrested..but that is JMO..

I like the freaky guy, what is it.??  B)

Thanks for the come back..B.....

Bernice, sorry,

I meant to add a reference to that freaky crop.

It's from another Murray potp print, it's near the very back of the book alongside another also taken from the Nth side of Elm St.

I could never work out this guys headwear & now I see he has an extra long chin/beard too.

Maybe he's just an old ball who likes to keep the sun of his head by placing pieces of carpet under his regular hats.

I agree with you that the major players would of left the scene by this time but I could well imagine some other disinfo agents hanging about for an hour or so after the murder.

I'd like to get the full story on the HSCA IDing of Hammerman, aren't these the same individuals who found Umbrellaman?

Since when does the sentence "The HSCA says ....." mean anything, no offence.

Please fill the gaps if you can guys.

Alan

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Alan.

Something i just noticed, that freaky guy's image seems to be blended in with that of a woman who is standing just to his right.

What looks like the extension of his hat is the top of her hair.

Edited by Robin Unger
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Dumbfounded Alan!

I can't post photos at present - don't know why not.  The resemblance of this man - specifically his hat, and the guy that I spent a long time chasing on the stairs, is simply incredible.  'Tightfitting light colored seacap' is what I called it.  When I was originally working to peel back the tint on the stairs, many times I couldn't figure out what was going on - clearly the area has been masked and is also subject to blockiness - but I would always look for the guy's hat to provide orientation.

It figures that I can't upload images at the moment.  The man I am referring to may be the same as the one in the Chevy that I had posted - credit to James Richards for that photo - the behind the fence scene.  Take a look and see what you think.

The man standing next to the car in the behind the fence scene, IMO, bears a strong resemblance to what IMO is a 'man' -- at at the corner of the short extension behind the retaining wall, in Nix.  I think I may have uploaded that somewhere also - if not in this thread elsewhere.

IMO, the 'light colored tight fitting seacap man's role was either to film [he's the one in Moorman that I called 'Stepman' before I realized that there were more than one] or he was a spotter.  I have a few nice close-ups and enhancements of the device he is holding - but of course, it's not good enough to make any real judgement calls on.

Out of sheer perverse curiousity - does anyone have a photo of what a spotter's scope would have looked like in 1963?  This would be very helpful, for me at any rate.

- lee

Lee,

firstly, there are limits to the amount of uploads we can have at one time, I had this prob' last night but I just went into "My Controls" then "Manage my Attachments" & just deleted a couple. Maybe your getting the same thing.

Also, if you have the url for a photo already posted, it's just as good imo.

As for the "Chevy" photo I think your refering to this 'un.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1110514221.gif

Did James mention where he got it from?

I thought it just showed the cops checking the cars & drivers parked in the lot near the railroad yard(I think I might of read some testimony that this is what these cops were ordered to do.

Three cops questioning three drivers with other cars queing up waiting their turn.

But yes, you're right, the driver does appear to be wearing a white helmet, how singular.

Could it be the freak? ;)

Does James have more frames?

Erm B)

Alan(just getting over the flu)

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Robin,

Thanks for the assist! I owe you!

Hey Alan!

Sorry to hear about the flu. Hope it's almost gone.

Three cops questioning three drivers with other cars queing up waiting their turn

I've spent some time on that photo - yes, thanks - neat way to reference it - useful trick that. The first man standing at the side door of the Chevy on the Driver's side is not a cop IMO. He is wearing a dark colored sea cap. I make him for a Cuban, as I do the driver.

But yes, you're right, the driver does appear to be wearing a white helmet, how singular.

I believe that Robin is right - the hair is a combo of 2 people - I will seek to fix the upload problem and lighten the man you have indicated. All I need is the mustache.

Another piece of the puzzle, IMO, is sitting down after the operation. We see DCM and TA/TUM doing it. We know that the young man in the red shirt was lying prone with Emmett Hudson, and then the 2 can be seen sitting on the stairs. As pointed out before, we can see other sitting on the stairs in Towner.

Was this part of the plan? Don't draw any unnecessary attention to yourself - sit down, act normal, and then blend with the crowd to make good your escape?

The attachment Robin posted for me [Thanks Robin!] - note the man's hat holding what I am calling a GSAP mounted weapon. I can find him in Muchmore frames in that location again and again. Various versions of the Moorman also - the further back you go in time - like the Dallas Herald version.

Lot's of unknowns here.

Bernice - from everything that I have seen [which needs work on timestamping] I don't believe that they were in a hurry at all. The only ones that needed to get out of there would have been the shooters. I believe several of our guys may have hung around - but that's just an opinion.

Let's not forget 'train man' ended up at the TSBD, but there doesn't appear to be a record of his visit, aside from the few frames that caught him there, as per James post.

Culligan has Ruby as a driver for one of the shooters. Consider Julia Ann Mercer's account, and Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams. Perhaps other means were arranged to provide the look of an arrest?

On November 22, 1963, I was driving a rented White Valient automobile west on Elm Street and was proceeding to the overpass in a westerly direction and at a point about 45 or 50 feet east of the overhead signs of the right entrance road to the overpass, there was a truck parked on the right hand side of the road. The truck looked like it had 1 or 2 wheels up on the curb. The hood of the truck was open. On the driver's side of the truck, there were printed letters in black, oval shaped, which said "Air Conditioning". This was a pickup truck and along the back side of the truck were what appeared to be tool boxes. The truck was a green Ford with a Texas license. I remember seeing the word "Ford" at the back of the truck.

A man was sitting under the wheel of the car and slouched over the wheel. This man had on a green jacket, was a white male and about his 40's and was heavy set. I did not see him too clearly. Another man was at the back of the truck and reached over the tailgate and took out from the truck what appeared to be a gun case. This case was about 8" wide at its widest spot and tapered down to a width of about 4" or 5". It was brown in color. It had a handle and was about 3 1/2 to 4 feet long. The man who took this out of the truck then proceeded to walk away from the truck and he reached down to free it. He then proceeded to walk across the grass and up the grassy hill which forms part of the overpass. This is the last I saw of this man.

I had been delayed because the truck which I described was blocking my passage and I had to await until the lane to my left cleared so I could go by the truck.

During the time that I was at this point and observed the above incident there were 3 policeman standing talking near a motorcycle on the bridge just west of me.

The man who took what appeared to be the gun case out of the truck was a white male, who appeared to be in his late 20's or early 30's and he was wearing a grey jacket, brown pants and plaid shirt as best as I can remember. I remember he had on some kind of a hat that looked like a wool stocking hat with a tassell in the middle of it. I believe that I can identify this man if I see him again.

The man who remained in the truck had light brown hair and I believe I could identify him also if I were to see him again.

(signed by) Julia Ann Mercer.

Is that one of the Ford's in this thread? B) The one seen in Muchmore?

Let me try Alan's trick here and see if it works...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1110584583.jpg

Mr. Belin.

During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?

Miss ADAMS. At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.

Mr. BELIN. No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. Belin.

That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant?

Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.

What was the role of Florer and B again? I had read someplace that the latter [who is fond of lawsuits] was posing as an SS man. Was the man Miss Adams was referring to later seen in the photo of Charles Brehm? If Culligan is correct, the operation had 2 squad cars at it's disposal. One would possible have been located on 10th street at the time Tippit arrived, as per that excellent post of Dixies. Do we have operatives posing as SS and Cops assisting the operation in making good their escape, only to have one or two [or more] get caught and later released?

One dumb question which has always bothered me. Aside from Mercer and Adams, Jean Hill says she sees a man that looks like Ruby. Tilson sees a man that he says looks like Ruby. Mrs Markham sees a man that could fit Ruby's description. Is there a man that looks like Ruby somehow involved? Ruby can't be everywhere at once, can he? Then there's the story of Ruby passing LHO a pistol on his way out of the TSBD. If he's in back, seen by Adams, who is Tilson chasing? Is it all a matter of timing?

Sorry - as usual, thinking aloud.

- lee

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