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[Pat Speer]

It's been a suspicion of mine for awhile that the police officer who yelled at Vickie Adams and the men lurking around the back didn't stop anybody from going in or out because they were looking for one person in particular, Oswald. I don't believe Oswald was supposed to escape. He outsmarted them by strolling through the offices and walking out the front door.

[Ron Ecker]

Carr's testimony about 2 or 3 men running out of the TSBD is dubious,

In his Clay Shaw trial testimony, Carr said he could be sure if the men he saw came out from the side door on Houston, or the back door on the north side of the building.

Victoria Adams said she left the TSBD by the Houston St. door.

There was another door on the northside of the building and anyone leaving be that door might have been facilitated by people standing guard at that door.

Steve,

Thanks for pointing that out. I've gone back and read Carr's testimony, and there are other things wrong with it. He says that right after the shots, he saw three men come out of the side or back of the TSBD and get in the Rambler, parked the wrong way heading north. According to Weston in his article, that part of Houston Street could not be seen from Carr's vantage point on the 7th floor of the new courthouse under construction. The old courthouse would have blocked the view.

But let's assume Carr did see them from where he was. How in the world could any shooters or spotters involved in the shooting come running out of the TSBD within seconds of the last shot? Carr said he did not pay attention to the limo accelerating because he was watching these men running out of the TSBD. Man, those guys did some fast traveling from the upper floors, beating Oswald's record time down to the lunchroom by a long shot. The limo may not have even reached the underpass yet!

If they exited that fast, it is no surprise that Romack didn't see them. But how did officer Barnett, who had Houston Street in view and ran down it to get to the back of the building, miss the parked Rambler and the three guys jumping into it?

Also, what were those guys doing in the TSBD anyway (they had to be on the first floor, close to the door, to get out as fast as they did), since Carr says that all three high-powered rifle shots he heard (after hearing what he thought was a pistol shot from somewhere) came from the grassy knoll, not from the TSBD.

So does Carr's testimony about these men (who were not mentioned in his FBI report, though he tried to explain that) make any sense?

Ron

[Tim Gratz]

Ron:

I know Pat disputes GPH's story about the escape by the elevator shaft but if GPH is correct and the assassins were in good shape they could descend via the elevator shaft in very short order.

[Antti Hynonen]

Ron Ecker Posted Today, 05:46 AM

  QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Mar 22 2005, 05:19 PM)

QUOTE(Ron Ecker @ Mar 21 2005, 04:00 PM)

Carr's testimony about 2 or 3 men running out of the TSBD is dubious,

In his Clay Shaw trial testimony, Carr said he could be sure if the men he saw came out from the side door on Houston, or the back door on the north side of the building.

Victoria Adams said she left the TSBD by the Houston St. door.

There was another door on the northside of the building and anyone leaving be that door might have been facilitated by people standing guard at that door.

Steve,

Thanks for pointing that out. I've gone back and read Carr's testimony, and there are other things wrong with it. He says that right after the shots, he saw three men come out of the side or back of the TSBD and get in the Rambler, parked the wrong way heading north. According to Weston in his article, that part of Houston Street could not be seen from Carr's vantage point on the 7th floor of the new courthouse under construction. The old courthouse would have blocked the view.

But let's assume Carr did see them from where he was. How in the world could any shooters or spotters involved in the shooting come running out of the TSBD within seconds of the last shot? Carr said he did not pay attention to the limo accelerating because he was watching these men running out of the TSBD. Man, those guys did some fast traveling from the upper floors, beating Oswald's record time down to the lunchroom by a long shot. The limo may not have even reached the underpass yet!

If they exited that fast, it is no surprise that Romack didn't see them. But how did officer Barnett, who had Houston Street in view and ran down it to get to the back of the building, miss the parked Rambler and the three guys jumping into it?

Also, what were those guys doing in the TSBD anyway (they had to be on the first floor, close to the door, to get out as fast as they did), since Carr says that all three high-powered rifle shots he heard (after hearing what he thought was a pistol shot from somewhere) came from the grassy knoll, not from the TSBD.

So does Carr's testimony about these men (who were not mentioned in his FBI report, though he tried to explain that) make any sense?

Ron

Ron, you make a few good points. I read and re-read Carr's testimony aswell, and in my view the sequence and timing of all events is not totally clear from his testimony. I suspect he meant that soon after the shots were fired, he saw 3 men (in addition to the man in the sports coat with the heavy rimmed glasses) fleeing the TSBD building. He may not have been precise about the exact location of the vehicle on Houston.

Carr's testimony has undergone a lot of scrutiny and has received all kinds of criticism, some of it being totally called for. One argument was that, since the distance from where Carr was, he could not have given such detail of this man with the sports coat and horn rimmed glasses, considering the distance to the window of the TSBD.

My analysis of Carr's testimony and this particular critcism, is that Carr was following this man's action in detail, starting from the TSBD and then followed his movements and reaction until he was out of sight. The way he was able to give the detail was by keeping an eye on the subject as he was at a closer range, running towards the car (he must have approached Carr's location by over 100 yards).

Considering Carr's military background and heavy combat experience, I would be extra cautious about dismissing his testimony regarding the shots fired and his observations in general (goes for Mr. Brehm too). Besides, if Carr had made up a fairy tale, why would his life have been threatened on many occasions, and why would there have been actual attempts on taking his life? A bit similar to the threats on R. Craig's life.

Edited March 27, 2005 by Antti Hynonen

[Gerry Hemming]

Ron:

I know Pat disputes GPH's story about the escape by the elevator shaft but if GPH is correct and the assassins were in good shape they could descend via the elevator shaft in very short order.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good shape. We have skinny young ladies (Airborne Parachutists) rappelling down the 50 foot walls every day of the week here at Fort Bragg. As I explained to you on the phone, the rappellers have formed "Sheepshank Knots" on their ropes -- cut the center strand under tension with a knife -- then upon reaching the bottom, all they have to do for line recovery is to shake the rope. Total time to rapple down 70+ feet is 8 seconds unless a foot bounce is made -- then it is 11 seconds !!

GPH

[Tim Gratz]

Thanks, Gerry, for posting this information.

I believe your explanation makes perfect sense. The assassins would want to exit the TSBD ASAP and the elevator shaft would allow them the fastest way down and a way they could not be detected.

And it is consistent with Baker and Truly finding the elevator inoperable.

[Antti Hynonen]

Gerry Hemming Posted Yesterday, 07:25 AM  Good shape. We have skinny young ladies (Airborne Parachutists) rappelling down the 50 foot walls every day of the week here at Fort Bragg. As I explained to you on the phone, the rappellers have formed "Sheepshank Knots" on their ropes -- cut the center strand under tension with a knife -- then upon reaching the bottom, all they have to do for line recovery is to shake the rope. Total time to rapple down 70+ feet is 8 seconds unless a foot bounce is made -- then it is 11 seconds !!

GPH

Tim Gratz Posted Yesterday, 07:29 AM

Thanks, Gerry, for posting this information.

I believe your explanation makes perfect sense. The assassins would want to exit the TSBD ASAP and the elevator shaft would allow them the fastest way down and a way they could not be detected.

And it is consistent with Baker and Truly finding the elevator inoperable.

QUOTE(Tim Gratz @ Mar 23 2005, 07:02 AM)

Ron:

I know Pat disputes GPH's story about the escape by the elevator shaft but if GPH is correct and the assassins were in good shape they could descend via the elevator shaft in very short order.

Assuming it is possible for 3-4 men to descend in say a time frame of 40 seconds after the last shots were fired, how do they exit the elevator shaft undetected on the first floor with TSBD staff (if not police officers) around the bottom floor?

According to Truly's testimony the elevators were on the 5th floor. Did the conspirators walk down to the 4th and then descend to the first, or how did they accomplish their descent past the elevators which were apparently blocking the shaft on the 5th floor?

I can't quite see how this alternative would be a successful escape route, as it contains too many risks.

[Steve Thomas]

Ron,

Thanks for pointing that out. I've gone back and read Carr's testimony, and there are other things wrong with it. He says that right after the shots, he saw three men come out of the side or back of the TSBD and get in the Rambler, parked the wrong way heading north. According to Weston in his article, that part of Houston Street could not be seen from Carr's vantage point on the 7th floor of the new courthouse under construction. The old courthouse would have blocked the view.

I have tried to reconcile what Carr said he saw about the car and what Howard Brennan said in his 1988 book, "Eyewitness to History."

"While surveying the area, I glanced away to the side of the Depository Building and found something I could not understand. At that time there was a side entrance towards the rear of the building on Houston Street. At some point during the morning hours, the police had sealed off parking in that block and forced all cars to move. Saw horses were placed at Elm and Houston to block traffic. As I looked around I saw a lone car parked beside the Book Depository with a while male seated behind the wheel. The car was an Oldsmobile, a 1955–57 model. It is difficult to tell the exact year unless one is an expert because all those years looked nearly alike. I remember wondering why all the other cars had been made to move and this one had not.

I didn’t have the chance to study the driver carefully but he was wearing civilian clothes and appeared to be middle aged.

One thing that interested me about the car was the way it was parked. The left front wheel was pulled sharply away from the curb and the driver had the door partially open. Later I wondered if the reason for this was so the car could make a quick U-turn in a speedy departure. As I was watching the man in the car I saw a policeman who was on foot walk over towards the car and begin talking to the man in a friendly, laughing manner. So far as I could see, there was no attempt made to get the man to move his car and after chatting for a minute or so, the policeman walked back to his post. It was this fact that made me think the police should have made some report about the presence of the car, but I have never seen any other account of this “mystery car.”

I glanced back towards the street to the side of the building. The car I had seen PARKED there before the motorcade passed WAS GONE. Although only a few moments had elapsed and all exits were blocked except one, the car had disappeared. The policeman who had been talking to the driver was gone, but I assumed he was looking for the gunman.

Many times since, especially in recent years, I have thought about the car parked alongside the Texas Book Depository and wondered where it came from and where it went. I have always wondered why the policeman allowed the car to be parked illegally beside the building with its wheels turned outward when other cars had been made to vacate the area. Of course, the paramount question in my mind was, “Who was the man sitting behind the wheel that day?”

As I watched the car, it never occurred to me that an assassination was about to take place and this might be the “get-away” car. Even though I could not have positively identified the man behind the wheel, I can say this for certain. The man was white, middle-aged and dressed in civilian clothes."

I have tried to look at pictures of the Houston St. side of the TSBD prior to the assassination to see if either of the two cars mentioned by Carr and Brennan could be identified, but so far, no luck.

Steve Thomas

[David Boylan]

Does anybody know what Marvin Robinson had to say about this?

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10109-10153

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 013840

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : WC

FROM : FBI

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 11/23/1963

PAGES : 1

DOCUMENT TYPE : REPORT

SUBJECTS : EYEWITNESS; ROBINSON, MARVIN C.; TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK

DEPOSITORY

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 12/17/1996

COMMENTS : Box 242.

Audit history for this Record Identification Form

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hit 2 of 2

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10111-10337

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 014790

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : WC

FROM : FBI

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 11/23/1963

PAGES : 4

DOCUMENT TYPE : REPORT

SUBJECTS : EYEWITNESS, CRAIG, ROGER; DALLAS COUNTY SHERIFF'S

DEPARTMENT; TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY; EYEWITNESS,

ROBINSON, MARVIN C.

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/12/1993

COMMENTS : Box #:282.

[Larry Hancock]

David, Robinson filed a report with the FBI relating to his observation of seeing a light colored Rambler stop on Elm and a man come down the grass incline and enter it before it drove away.

In addition, Robinson's boss, Roy Cooper also filed a statement that he had been driving behind Robinson (they had both been at a meeting together) and he observed a white male 20-30 years of age wave down a Rambler as it pulled away from the cornor of Elm and Houston. The man jumped into the Rambler which pulled out from the curb so quickly that Robinson had almost rear ended it.

The fact that Craig's remarks about observing the person flagging down the Rambler, the driver being dark complected and his telling his Chief all that - which were confirmed by news remarks about the report of a dark male driving away with the suspect - are confirmed by photos as well as two eye witnesses pretty well suggestthis part of Craig's remarks whatever one things about the rest.