Jack Ruby

[Ron Ecker]

James,

It looks like it could be Ruby to me.

Could the black man on the left in this photo be Herminio Diaz Garcia

(mixing with the crowd)?

His forehead is "marked" (cf. Rowland testimony) unless it's some

artifact in the photo, and see the resemblance in the photo that

follows of Diaz (partially hidden) in Menoyo's camp.

Ron

[James Richards]

Could the black man on the left in this photo be Herminio Diaz Garcia

(mixing with the crowd)?

Hi Ron,

Herminio Diaz Garcia was born in 1923 which made him 40 at the time of the assassination. He was 5' 8", weighed 180 pounds and was described as being of stocky build.

Judging by the photo of the people milling around in front of the TSBD, the guy in question seems to be too tall and of slimish build.

Having said that, I do believe the Dealey Plaza participants did mix with the crowd and did not run off drawing attention to themselves. DCM and UM for example were very calm after the shooting, sat down, had a chat and casually wandered off in different directions.

James

[Lee Forman]

Could the black man on the left in this photo be Herminio Diaz Garcia

(mixing with the crowd)?

Hi Ron,

Herminio Diaz Garcia was born in 1923 which made him 40 at the time of the assassination. He was 5' 8", weighed 180 pounds and was described as being of stocky build.

Judging by the photo of the people milling around in front of the TSBD, the guy in question seems to be too tall and of slimish build.

Having said that, I do believe the Dealey Plaza participants did mix with the crowd and did not run off drawing attention to themselves. DCM and UM for example were very calm after the shooting, sat down, had a chat and casually wandered off in different directions.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

James,

I believe that there are quite a few people that did the same. Some sort of prepared, planned reaction to the assassination, to avoid drawing attention - however, it fails, because that is not a normal reaction - Jean Hill never went down, and then she sought to drag Mary Moorman across the street. I often wonder about the individual we see falling to the ground in Zapruder - Millican:

A man standing on the South side of Elm Street, was either hit in the foot, or the ankle and fell down.

That's certainly what it looks like anyway.

The same applies for the Towner enhancement - these guys simply sit down on the stairs - and then they were removed [poorly].

I believe if you watch the Hughes film, the Bell film and others, we are witnessing quite a few of these operatives milling about, joining the throng, etc. - I just don't know enough about them to recognize them.

But it's the hats that make me wonder.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Back to the business at hand...

First article - National Enquirer, but got me thinking. Jan 31, 1975.

"Speaking exclusively to THE ENQUIRER, Dr. Tateur, 63, revealed that Ruby's mental torture was so great that he 'never spoke in anything above a whisper' for fear of having his words recorded and 'thought the county jail was a concentration camp.'

....."Speaking with marked fear, he said he was the victim of a conspiracy and was 'framed' to kill Oswald, so that Oswald could never say who made him kill Kennedy. 

This 'frame' involved a stripteaser, Ruby;s employee, who, on the fatal morning of Nov 24, 1963, 'made him go to the Western Union to wire her money....'"

"Ruby said the conspiracy also involved high government agencies and his attorneys, whom he considered to be members of the plot.'"

That's enough on that one. Yes, there's more about hearing voices of Jewish people being tortured in the next cell, etc.

However. There are many things that bother me about Jack Ruby.

- As per the initial posting, it appears that there was someone that looked like Ruby active in Dealey Plaza. The man at the TSBD doorway could be said to bear some resemblance.

- Marguerite Oswald is presented with what? A photo of Jack Ruby, before he kills her son? Or Saul?

- Mexican Oswald [saul] and the memo concerning alteration of the photo to avoid confusion with Ruby.

- The Mercer affidavit, which alters her statement to not include her identification of Ruby.

- The man described at the scene of the Tippit murder

- The photos

Now Hemming is saying that Saul was indeed someone we should be looking at. MacDonald says so also - has him on the top floor of the DalTex, with the plan to terminate 'Harvey' and create the fall guy for the assassination. Interesting.

From Coronet, March 1965 - the Belli interview.

Did he remember walking into the Dallas Police Headquarters basement that Sunday morning, November 24?

"Yes.  I just waved my hand to the guy and walked in."

And what did he remember then?

"Well, there were lights and a crowd."

And then?

"Well, I shot him."

Explain.  What happened?

"Well, they were all on top of me and I kept saying, 'I'm Jack Ruby.  You don't need to beat my brains out.'  Then they took me inside...."

We went over it again and again.  Always the same story.  Always the same failure to be specific about the thing itself - to tell how he did the shooting.  He referred to everything but the actual event.  The block in his recollection was glaring.  He told about sending the money order to his dancer, leaving his beloved dog Sheba in his parked car, but he never knew where he was just before the shooting....

Here's the Dallas Police Department Ruby.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/rubydpd2.jpg

Here is the Warren Report Ruby.

http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/s...ting-oswald.jpg

And this is....who is this?

http://www.yale.edu/yale300/democracy/may1...ssasination.gif

More from Coronet:

"There was one weird trait.  Unfailingly, at the mention of a member of President Kennedy's family, tears would start to course down his cheeks.  It could even be a casual mention -- later we tested his reaction by saying things like, "Too bad Jack Kennedy won't be able to see the Giants play" -- and the tears would just flow out of there.  It was too spontaneous to be an act."

[Mark Stapleton]

Back to the business at hand...

First article - National Enquirer, but got me thinking.  Jan 31, 1975.

"Speaking exclusively to THE ENQUIRER, Dr. Tateur, 63, revealed that Ruby's mental torture was so great that he 'never spoke in anything above a whisper' for fear of having his words recorded and 'thought the county jail was a concentration camp.'

....."Speaking with marked fear, he said he was the victim of a conspiracy and was 'framed' to kill Oswald, so that Oswald could never say who made him kill Kennedy. 

This 'frame' involved a stripteaser, Ruby;s employee, who, on the fatal morning of Nov 24, 1963, 'made him go to the Western Union to wire her money....'"

"Ruby said the conspiracy also involved high government agencies and his attorneys, whom he considered to be members of the plot.'"

That's enough on that one. Yes, there's more about hearing voices of Jewish people being tortured in the next cell, etc.

However. There are many things that bother me about Jack Ruby.

- As per the initial posting, it appears that there was someone that looked like Ruby active in Dealey Plaza. The man at the TSBD doorway could be said to bear some resemblance.

- Marguerite Oswald is presented with what? A photo of Jack Ruby, before he kills her son? Or Saul?

- Mexican Oswald [saul] and the memo concerning alteration of the photo to avoid confusion with Ruby.

- The Mercer affidavit, which alters her statement to not include her identification of Ruby.

- The man described at the scene of the Tippit murder

- The photos

Now Hemming is saying that Saul was indeed someone we should be looking at. MacDonald says so also - has him on the top floor of the DalTex, with the plan to terminate 'Harvey' and create the fall guy for the assassination. Interesting.

From Coronet, March 1965 - the Belli interview.

Did he remember walking into the Dallas Police Headquarters basement that Sunday morning, November 24?

"Yes.  I just waved my hand to the guy and walked in."

And what did he remember then?

"Well, there were lights and a crowd."

And then?

"Well, I shot him."

Explain.  What happened?

"Well, they were all on top of me and I kept saying, 'I'm Jack Ruby.  You don't need to beat my brains out.'  Then they took me inside...."

We went over it again and again.  Always the same story.  Always the same failure to be specific about the thing itself - to tell how he did the shooting.  He referred to everything but the actual event.  The block in his recollection was glaring.  He told about sending the money order to his dancer, leaving his beloved dog Sheba in his parked car, but he never knew where he was just before the shooting....

Here's the Dallas Police Department Ruby.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/rubydpd2.jpg

Here is the Warren Report Ruby.

http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/s...ting-oswald.jpg

And this is....who is this?

http://www.yale.edu/yale300/democracy/may1...ssasination.gif

More from Coronet:

"There was one weird trait.  Unfailingly, at the mention of a member of President Kennedy's family, tears would start to course down his cheeks.  It could even be a casual mention -- later we tested his reaction by saying things like, "Too bad Jack Kennedy won't be able to see the Giants play" -- and the tears would just flow out of there.  It was too spontaneous to be an act."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a few thoughts and queries. Great thread.

1. The statements of Victoria Adams, Malcolm Crouch and Jean Hills grassy knoll runner put Wanda Walker's DMN placing of Ruby in doubt. Is it possible he ran to the DMN offices for a brief alibi appearance (then back again?)

2. Regarding Tilson, I don't know. It's curious that he would throw away the piece of paper which supports his story. Against that, anyone who was ignored by the WC gets extra credibity in my book. I don't know.

3. Who was this cycle cop who told Jean Hill's boyfriend, J B Marshall, that he saw LBJ ducking before the shots. Anyone know his name?

4. The (large) photo of the Oswald shooting has one aspect which has always bothered me. What's the name of the detective in the white hat, dark suit and glasses to the left of the image? To me he looks like he's on guard in case anyone interferes with what Ruby's about to do. Just a thought. Is it Fritz?

[Steve Thomas]

Mark,

What's the name of the detective in the white hat, dark suit and glasses to the left of the image? Just a thought. Is it Fritz?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's Captain Fritz. The white Stetson's worn by members of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau were a bone of contention in the Department.

Steve Thomas

[Lee Forman]

Thanks Mark!

1. It's a great question. Wanda's story sounds very credible. It makes me think of the story of Ruby's reaction in the cell 2 days later when he learns of Oswald's death - very curious and remarkable.

2. Regarding Tilson, I don't know. It's curious that he would throw away the piece of paper which supports his story. Against that, anyone who was ignored by the WC gets extra credibity in my book. I don't know.

I have a big problem with the Tilson story. The only part that appears to discredit it is the McIntyre photo. When all of the other photos are in question, IMO, starting with the backyard photo, the Zapruder film, all of the films that have blackened in the area of the knoll and the sky, the Elsie Dorman film which appears almost black in parts, the limo turn on to Elm not being present in any, the missing shots to Kennedy's head, the flip-flop of z313 and another frame in Life magazine, the doctored autopsy photos, the concealed Operatives at the stairs in Muchmore, Nix, Bell and Moorman - why rely on that one photo to prove or disprove anything?

It's interesting, however, that Tilson is off-duty. He's off duty, yet there is a report of at least 200 Police Officiers having been brought in especially to Dallas to provide security for the Trade Mart. I believe I was told that there were other Police brought in to provide security on the route? But Olsen can guard an 'Estate' in Oak Cliff, and Tilson has off. Weird.

If Tilson has Ruby driving in the direction of Fort Worth, highly unlikely that he is chasing Jack Ruby.

I'm not sold on the Harvey and Lee story. Certainly Lee had lookalikes, and had people impersonating him. Believing he had an almost identical twin that was part of an intel program practically since his birth is hard to swallow, but I'll admit - I haven't finished Armstrong's book. If that theory is acceptable, or at a minimum, that there were one or more people impersonating Lee Oswald, isn't it logical that the same thing may have occurred with Jack Ruby?

- lee

[Steve Thomas]

James,

think it's time to dust off the box of images I have showing anti-Castro guys and to do some serious comparisons.

I read the other day according to the Warren Report, after the assassination, two Cubans were arrested in Dealey Plaza, but were released because they couldn''t speak English.

(Can't find that in the Report at this moment).

Any clues on who they might have been?

Steve Thomas

[Mark Stapleton]

James,

Do you have any photos of Arce besides the group photo of the arrested Interpen men? That's the only one I have a printed copy of. Based on that photo, I agree that the similarity is striking.

And the man wearing glasses who's second behind the Arce lookalike resembles Nazario Sargen, does he not?

Also, the guy who is between them looks entirely too slick. He had to be in on it. (Ron Ecker)

Hi Ron,

That's the only shot of Remigio Arce I have. For those who are interested, you can find it at the photo archives here -

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PHOTOinterpen16.htm

Kind of makes you think about Danny Arce and that Interpen photograph doesn't it?

The guy with the glasses does resemble Sargen but he looks a bit thin and maybe a bit too old. There are also shots of Sargen at the photo archives under the Alpha 66 heading.

Mr. Slick has also intrigued me over the years. I have tried to find him in other aftermath photographs but with no luck. I think it's time to dust off the box of images I have showing anti-Castro guys and to do some serious comparisons.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

James and Ron,

I think the third guy is a good old innocent bystander. Looks like he's not with Arce or Mr. Slick. Not really sure about Mr. Slick either because he's gone later. But he really does look like he's up to no good.

[Mark Stapleton]

Thanks Mark!

1. It's a great question.  Wanda's story sounds very credible.  It makes me think of the story of Ruby's reaction in the cell 2 days later when he learns of Oswald's death - very curious and remarkable. 

2. Regarding Tilson, I don't know. It's curious that he would throw away the piece of paper which supports his story. Against that, anyone who was ignored by the WC gets extra credibity in my book. I don't know.

I have a big problem with the Tilson story.  The only part that appears to discredit it is the McIntyre photo.  When all of the other photos are in question, IMO, starting with the backyard photo, the Zapruder film, all of the films that have blackened in the area of the knoll and the sky, the Elsie Dorman film which appears almost black in parts, the limo turn on to Elm not being present in any, the missing shots to Kennedy's head, the flip-flop of z313 and another frame in Life magazine, the doctored autopsy photos, the concealed Operatives at the stairs in Muchmore, Nix, Bell and Moorman - why rely on that one photo to prove or disprove anything? 

It's interesting, however, that Tilson is off-duty.  He's off duty, yet there is a report of at least 200 Police Officiers having been brought in especially to Dallas to provide security for the Trade Mart.  I believe I was told that there were other Police brought in to provide security on the route?  But Olsen can guard an 'Estate' in Oak Cliff, and Tilson has off.  Weird.

If Tilson has Ruby driving in the direction of Fort Worth, highly unlikely that he is chasing Jack Ruby.

I'm not sold on the Harvey and Lee story.  Certainly Lee had lookalikes, and had people impersonating him.  Believing he had an almost identical twin that was part of an intel program practically since his birth is hard to swallow, but I'll admit - I haven't finished Armstrong's book.  If that theory is acceptable, or at a minimum, that there were one or more people impersonating Lee Oswald, isn't it logical that the same thing may have occurred with Jack Ruby?

- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lee,

Yes, maybe the WC ignoring Tilson was a rare case of them getting it right.

Mark

[Lee Forman]

James,

think it's time to dust off the box of images I have showing anti-Castro guys and to do some serious comparisons.

I read the other day according to the Warren Report, after the assassination, two Cubans were arrested in Dealey Plaza, but were released because they couldn''t speak English.

(Can't find that in the Report at this moment).

Any clues on who they might have been?

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Steve!

That's a great reason to let someone go, isn't it? I speak semi-fluent Spanish - I'm going to try that next time I'm pulled over for speeding.

I have a photo that was apparently published [in a newspaper?] concerning a man arrested for shouting something at the motorcade in Spanish, and that he was let go. He looks like no one I have ever seen. I wonder if he is the same, or separate from the 2 men? I also wonder what he shouted.

Can't post the thing. Send me an email and I'll send it to you as an attachment, unless someone has it?

This guy below bugs me, personally. 'Unidentified' on the Cuban Exile website. I can't swear to it, but I think I've seen him in a photo in Dealey Plaza also.

http://cuban-exile.com/photo/hsca-mugs/HSCA-085-unk.jpg

I also came across a reference I had never seen before concerning Jack Ruby's FPCC card, number 52. I should traanscribe that one also. Allegedly it was seen by 4 Dallas Cops, as it was handed in with a box of evidence, from a Cuban man's apartment. The story goes that it vanished when it was sent to the FBI. Also included was a hotel receipt that had both LHO and Ruby present at the same time. This came from the Enquirer again, so I don't know how much water the story holds. Need to find it.

- lee

[Ron Ecker]

Herminio Diaz Garcia was born in 1923 which made him 40 at the time of the assassination. He was 5' 8", weighed 180 pounds and was described as being of stocky build.

Judging by the photo of the people milling around in front of the TSBD, the guy in question seems to be too tall and of slimish build.

James,

Fair enough, though your description of Herminio would also seem to eliminate him as the black man whom Rowland saw at the window. Rowland described the man as "very thin" and 55 or 60.

The black man in the photo appears to be holding some long white or light-colored object under his arm. Can anyone tell what it might be?

Ron

Edited March 25, 2005 by Ron Ecker

[Lee Forman]

Herminio Diaz Garcia was born in 1923 which made him 40 at the time of the assassination. He was 5' 8", weighed 180 pounds and was described as being of stocky build.

Judging by the photo of the people milling around in front of the TSBD, the guy in question seems to be too tall and of slimish build.

James,

Fair enough, though your description of Herminio would also seem to eliminate him as the black man whom Rowland saw at the window. Rowland described the man as "very thin" and 55 or 60.

The black man in the photo appears to be holding some long white or light-colored object under his arm. Can anyone tell what it might be?

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Ron!

I gave it a whirl, but the file is only 11K - not much to work with. I'd need a higher res photo to work on.

- lee

BTW - I always enjoy your posts. Many times your sense of humor hits home hard and gives me a good laugh.

[Robin Unger]

Herminio Diaz Garcia was born in 1923 which made him 40 at the time of the assassination. He was 5' 8", weighed 180 pounds and was described as being of stocky build.

Judging by the photo of the people milling around in front of the TSBD, the guy in question seems to be too tall and of slimish build.

James,

Fair enough, though your description of Herminio would also seem to eliminate him as the black man whom Rowland saw at the window. Rowland described the man as "very thin" and 55 or 60.

The black man in the photo appears to be holding some long white or light-colored object under his arm. Can anyone tell what it might be?

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Ron!

I gave it a whirl, but the file is only 11K - not much to work with. I'd need a higher res photo to work on.

- lee

BTW - I always enjoy your posts. Many times your sense of humor hits home hard and gives me a good laugh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lee/Ron

It looks as though he is carrying a sighn or billboard of some kind.

[James Richards]

James,

Fair enough, though your description of Herminio would also seem to eliminate him as the black man whom Rowland saw at the window. Rowland described the man as "very thin" and 55 or 60.

The black man in the photo appears to be holding some long white or light-colored object under his arm. Can anyone tell what it might be? (Ron Ecker)

Hi Ron,

Diaz Garcia was a pretty gnarly looking 40 year old. I believe he could easily pass for someone 10 years his senior.

Now that you mention it, this character does seem to be holding something. How bizarre.

James