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Roger Craig


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On 5/13/2010 at 8:08 AM, Todd W. Vaughan said:

Jerry,

But Craig’s own manuscript says nothing of the sort and instead places the Secret Service agent on the steps of the TSBD:

“I ran to the front of the Texas School Book Depository where I asked for anyone involved in the investigation. There was a man standing on the steps of the Book Depository Building and he turned to me and said, "I'm with the Secret Service." This man was about 40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit.”

Todd

In his report of Oswald's interview on the 24th, Thomas Kelley wrote that Oswald said while he was standing on the steps of the TSBD, a man claiming to be with the Secret Service, ran up to him, showed him some identification, and asked where there was a telephone.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=653&tab=page

 

I wonder if the events are connected, or if Craig folded this into his own narrative.

 

Steve Thomas

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Being a relatively new member, I hadn't seen this thread before.

I am intrigued by Ms.Palmer's assessment of her father Roger Craig.

It's obvious she has much personal bitterness towards him.

So much so that you really feel that she experienced something on a personal level that made her dislike Roger Craig to the point of saying almost exclusively negative things about him.  In my opinion it's a very biased emotional view and an unreasonably unbalanced one.

I am not a psychologist so the following are just my layman thoughts regarding Ms. Palmer's strongly negative views of Craig.

"his marriage didn't end due to repeated harassment and threats - unless you count his repeated threats to end his own life." 

The personal bias and bitterness toward Craig in that statement is so obvious. Her statement is more reflective of her personal feelings of animosity toward Craig than any reasonably objective assessment.

In regards to Craig mentioning killing himself ( which many people view as cowardly weakness and are even irritated by hearing such ) I can relate to Craig's despondency and hopelessness in this regard.

Has anyone here ever injured their back severely?  I have.

I had 4 bulging discs ( one severe, one moderate, two moderate to mild ) at one time after trying to move us and scores of heavy boxes myself at the age of 64 because we just couldn't afford the cost of help in this endeavor.

I went to an Urgent Care and the doctor there said it was just a sprain and to take some pain pills and it would go away!

In the next week or so, the pain didn't dissipate or go away. It just kept getting worse!

The doctors I saw later kept dodging my request to have an MRI and thought perhaps that I was exaggerating my pain? 

Finally, one doctor gave me a prescription for an MRI and that's when the real truth came out regarding my back being seriously injured versus just a sprain.

Even with Percocet and physical therapy the pain was intense ( could hardly sleep or get up in the morning)  and it took months to go away.

During those 3 to 4 months the 24 hour pain and drugged feelings from the pain meds made me think - that if I had to endure that kind of pain and loss of work, social and even intimacy life functionality for years -  that this might drive me to seriously giving some thought to ending my life.

That's what serious long term back injuries can do to a normal person.

In my 65 years, I have heard similar horror stories and seen people break down from this kind of pain due to back injuries alone.

Now, multiply Roger Craig's more serious back injuries ( and surgeries which often never heal right and cause even more pain! ) and time of suffering X10 versus my back injury episode.

Of course Craig occasionally contemplated ending his life!  

It wasn't his bad, weak, cowardly or irresponsible character that was the problem.

And when someone loses their ability to work and make enough funds to support himself and maybe even a family to something better than month to month...that's just another weight to bear for someone already stressed and depressed.

And I see Roger Craig's leaving perhaps a neglected ( maybe even abusive ) childhood (at what ... 12 years old ?) AND SURVIVING ??? ... by wandering to other people's ranches or farms and finding work as simply remarkable.

And as far as Craig trying to join the military by lying about his age - so did tens of thousands of others! 

So, this so-called Bi-Polar kid serves in the Army? With no disciplinary actions against him. He got along with hundreds of other soldiers? He was discharged early that is true. But are the reasons for that from serious emotional problems? This I don't know.

Then after the military he goes to Dallas and is humble enough to take on the job of dishwasher until he could find something better?

I too had to wash dishes in my later teens. 2 years worth!

I didn't have the funds to go back to school ( yet I had to pay the rent and feed myself ) and I didn't have any connections to higher paying work through friends or family or a good job market in this small town area or maybe even just a lucky break.

I too wasn't too proud to do this honest work until I could finally find something better. To me it was a sign of character to keep doing this kind of work when so many made fun of it.

And when I view Mark Lane's "Two Men In Dallas" documentary and Roger Craig's interview, I see a calm and thoughtful and perceptive Roger Craig.

 Bi-Polar people are usually manic in their speaking. Craig seems the opposite.

And when Ms. Palmer disparages Craig and his knowledge of rifles ( regarding whether the 6th floor rifle found was a Mauser versus an Italian MC ) ...you are struck by Ms. Palmer's ignorance of Constable Seymour Weitzman's ( a former sporting goods store manager and gun buff ) incredible on-site statement - with her father right next to Weitzman when he said this ... that "the rife was a Mauser."

Let alone the fact of the entire national media reporting this found rifle as a Mauser also for the first day or two.

And even if Roger Craig cheated on his wife and wasn't a good provider after being attacked and injured and followed and harassed ( for years!)  I believe that if anyone had to go through "half" of what Roger Craig went through they themselves could very easily also lose their sense of self and maybe even their moral compass from time to time and to different degrees. Judging Craig's over-all  character in this regard is ridiculous.

And whether Craig confronted someone on the steps of the TXSBD or above the grassy knoll who stated they were Secret Service, there is corroboration by other people, including DPD Officer Smith, who said they also confronted men in this area who stated they were Secret Service (even producing such I.D.! )  which the Secret Service themselves denied having there.

Sorry, Roger Craig cannot be downplayed as simply some Bi-Polar loser who was only after the easy money way out and to satisfy some extreme need for importance, attention and pity.  His end of life woes make all the sense in the world relative to his years of 24 hour-a-day physical pain and emotional and work ending stress.

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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I would like to read other people's takes on Roger Craig and his credibility or lack there of.

Am I missing some huge body of Craig history knowledge and research that shows him to be something far less than Mark Lane's courageous hero? 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I would like to read other people's takes on Roger Craig and his credibility or lack there of.

Am I missing some huge body of Craig history knowledge and research that shows him to be something far less than Mark Lane's courageous hero? 

I am sure that David Von Pein can help you out.

To be sure, Seymour Wetzman's actions in Dealy Plaza and the TSBD mirrored Craig's. Weitzman recanted his Mauser ID; Craig, I believe, wavered due to attempts on his life. Weitzman was interviewed days before Craig was suicided. Weitzman additionally identified Watergate burgler Bernard Barker as a fake SS officer on the Grassy Knoll. Perhaps it was feared that Craig would make that same identification.

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Craig a "disturbed" man ( partly according to his daughter ) because he refused to ever change or recant his recollection of the TXSBD 6th floor found rifle being identified ( and stamped right on the barrel ) as a 7.65 Mauser versus being identified as an Italian 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano ?

And the other officer present  ( deputy constable Seymour Weitzman - a sporting goods store owning gun buff ) also within inches of the found rifle and who made the first I.D.statement to everyone else present that the rifle was indeed a Mauser and who later made a public announcement that he mis-identified this same rifle that Roger Craig also saw within inches, ends up in a mental institution?

Which one of these contradictory rifle I.D. men was truly disturbed?

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If....

1. I was privy to the cover-up to the assassination of sitting US President

or

2. Had several attempts made on my life

or

3. Had been threatened that telling the truth would lead to my being murdered

Then.... I would be disturbed as well, and I would expect to be labeled as disturbed.

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22 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Being a relatively new member, I hadn't seen this thread before.

I am intrigued by Ms.Palmer's assessment of her father Roger Craig.

It's obvious she has much personal bitterness towards him.

So much so that you really feel that she experienced something on a personal level that made her dislike Roger Craig to the point of saying almost exclusively negative things about him.  In my opinion it's a very biased emotional view and an unreasonably unbalanced one.

I am not a psychologist so the following are just my layman thoughts regarding Ms. Palmer's strongly negative views of Craig.

"his marriage didn't end due to repeated harassment and threats - unless you count his repeated threats to end his own life." 

The personal bias and bitterness toward Craig in that statement is so obvious. Her statement is more reflective of her personal feelings of animosity toward Craig than any reasonably objective assessment.

In regards to Craig mentioning killing himself ( which many people view as cowardly weakness and are even irritated by hearing such ) I can relate to Craig's despondency and hopelessness in this regard.

Has anyone here ever injured their back severely?  I have.

I had 4 bulging discs ( one severe, one moderate, two moderate to mild ) at one time after trying to move us and scores of heavy boxes myself at the age of 64 because we just couldn't afford the cost of help in this endeavor.

I went to an Urgent Care and the doctor there said it was just a sprain and to take some pain pills and it would go away!

In the next week or so, the pain didn't dissipate or go away. It just kept getting worse!

The doctors I saw kept dodging my request to have an MRI and thought perhaps that I was just looking for attention? 

Finally, one doctor gave me a prescription for an MRI and that's when the real truth came out regarding my back being seriously injured versus just a sprain.

Even with Percocet and physical therapy the pain ( could hardly sleep or get up in the morning)  took months to go away.

During that long suffering time the 24 hour pain and drugged feelings from the pain meds made me think that if I had to endure that kind of pain and loss of work, social and even intimacy life functionality for years, that this might drive me to seriously giving some thought to ending my life.

That's what serious long term back injuries can do to a normal person.

In my 65 years, I have heard similar horror stories and seen people break down from this kind of pain many times, due to back injuries alone!

Now, multiply Roger Craig's more serious back injuries ( and surgeries which often never heal right and cause even more pain! ) and time of suffering X10 versus my back injury episode!

Of course Craig occasionally contemplated ending his life!  

It wasn't his bad, weak or cowardly character that was the problem!

And when someone loses their ability to work and make enough funds to support himself and maybe even a family to something better than month to month...that's just anther huge yoke around someone's already depressed and loss of hope psyche.

And I see Roger Craig's leaving perhaps a neglected ( maybe even abusive ) childhood (at what 10 or 11 or maybe 12 years old ?) AND SURVIVING ??? ... by wandering to other people's ranches or farms and finding work as some type of heroic effort!

And as far as Craig trying to join the military by lying about his age - so did tens of thousands of others! 

And maybe like so many impoverished young men from that era, Craig saw the military as a better way of life with steady paychecks, meals and shelter and clothing?

So, this so-called Bi-Polar kid serves in Korea? In the Army? With no disciplinary actions against him. He got along with hundreds of other soldiers?

Then after the military he goes to Dallas and is not too proud to take on the job of dishwasher?

I too had to wash dishes in my later teens. 2 years worth!

I didn't have the funds to go back to school ( yet I had to pay the rent and feed myself ) and I didn't have any connections to higher paying work through friends or family or a good job market in this small town area or maybe even just a lucky break.

I too wasn't too proud to do this honest work until I could finally find something better. To me it was a sign of character to keep doing this kind of work when so many made fun of it.

And when I view Mark Lane's "Two Men In Dallas" documentary and Roger Craig's interview, I see a calm and thoughtful and perceptive Roger Craig.

 Bi-Polar people are usually manic in their speaking. Craig seems the opposite.

And when Ms. Palmer disparages Craig and his knowledge of rifles ( regarding whether the 6th floor rifle found was a Mauser versus an Italian MC ) ...you are just struck by Ms. Palmer's almost shocking ignorance of Constable Seymour Weitzman's incredible confession ( a man who had owned a sporting goods store and knew rifles! ) of his " stating right there next to Craig" that "the rife was a Mauser"...let alone the entire national media reporting this found rifle as a Mauser also for the first day or two.

And even if Roger Craig cheated on his wife and wasn't a good provider in his years after being attacked and injured and followed and harassed ( for years!)  I dare "ANYONE" to go through half of what he went through and see if they don't lose their sense of self and/or even their moral compass to different degrees.

And whether Craig confronted someone on the steps of the TXSBD or above the grassy knoll who stated they were Secret Service, there is corroboration by other people including Officer Smith who said they also confronted men in this area who stated they were Secret Service (even producing such I.D.! )  which the Secret Service themselves denied having there.

Sorry, Roger Craig cannot be downplayed as simply some Bi-Polar loser who was only after the easy money way out and to satisfy some extreme need for importance, attention and pity.  His end of life woes make all the sense in the world relative to his years of 24 hour-a-day physical pain and emotional and work ending stress.

 

 

Joe, I appreciate your perspective on this. I think it's an important one with which I agree and can sympathize. I have a 28-year-old son who is permanently disabled with bipolar disorder (I suffer the chronic pain, but it's in the foot). Anyway, I think you make great points to which people who have not had to deal with these issues have no clue . My son's condition kicked in high gear around age 21, so I spent the first 48 years of my life blind to them as well. Thanks for posting. I hope your condition improves.

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On 6/13/2008 at 11:48 PM, William Kelly said:

No, I don't know if its really his daughter or not, it just sounds real and not uncommon. Oswald's daughters often feel the same way. I just picked up a copy of Robert Oswald's Lee, A Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald by his brother (for a quarter). Similar deal. Penn Jones' "archives" at Baylor are so stark of material because his exwife sold everything at a garage sale. Family members google their relatives, fathers, sisters, brothers, and girlfriends check it out and sometimes express what they know, and feel. That shouldn't change how you think.

The case for conspiracy doesn't rely on Craig, and his daughter's comments certainly don't constitute a bombshell.

As for what Craig says, he gives insight into other deputies, especially Lummie Lewis, who picked up Braden, and Bill Decker, the top dog, who kicked Braden out of Dallas a few years before.

Instead of judging one deputy, look at the whole corrupt County Sheriff system (adopted from the British model), that Skinny D'Amato used to help JFK win the West Virginia primary (According to Sly Hersh's The Darkside of Camelot), and who were on stand down for security purposes even thought their office ovelooks DP.

It was the Sheriff who was to take custody of the alledged assassin cop killer prisoner, as Decker (and Craig and company) would have had Oswald for their own interrogation purposes if he wasn't killed during the transfer.

Craig is just one of hundreds of similar witnesses and subjects in the assassination drama, and every one of them can be totally discredited.

BK

Far be it from a JFK neophyte like myself to question any details of the assassination as stated by Mr. Kelly, but I would take issue with his criticism of the British model of county sheriff systems. Despite possible corruption -- which is rampant in any law enforcement agency, regardless of the system -- it remains the best method for law enforcement. Elected sheriffs who depend on voter goodwill for their continued employment, are a lot less likely to abuse or even murder citizens than non-elected, non-accountable municipal police forces, which came into being only because sheriffs were reluctant to bust heads during labor strife in the 19th century. The first municipal police departments were funded privately and composed of thugs who shoot first and ask questions later. Not unlike today.

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Guest Dale Thorn
5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I would like to read other people's takes on Roger Craig and his credibility or lack there of.

Am I missing some huge body of Craig history knowledge and research that shows him to be something far less than Mark Lane's courageous hero? 

Craig, like many people who worked in that area in 1963, was just another quirky guy who happened to enjoy the deputy sheriff job, or it just paid better than the alternatives.  A relatively unsophisticated man, whose expertise was guns and shooting, he would be woefully unprepared to deal directly with the crooks from Washington DC.  I'm 99.9 percent certain that Craig was as honest as they get, and the fact that we know as much from him as we do in the middle of a big Secret Service murder of the president of the U.S. is a miracle itself.

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Joe - I appreciate your post and your perspective very much. I had similar thoughts when I read through Craig's story. Thanks

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