NSA and the assassination of JFK

[Ron Ecker]

There's a famous picture of JFK delivering his final speech outside the hotel in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22. Looking on is LBJ in a white trench coat with a knowing expression on his face that, for me, says it all.

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And what's Connally so worried about? ("My God, I wonder if they're going to kill us all.")

[Shanet Clark]

There's a famous picture of JFK delivering his final speech outside the hotel in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22. Looking on is LBJ in a white trench coat with a knowing expression on his face that, for me, says it all.

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And what's Connally so worried about? ("My God, I wonder if they're going to kill us all.")

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Great Photo

LBJ seems to be thinking, "I won't have to listen to this bastard much longer, we got your number, pinko"

[Antti Hynonen]

Looking at the Dallas motorcade photos, I can't see any pictures of John Connally smiling.

Did he not enjoy the cheering crowd, or was he worried about something?

Have a look:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MCade.htm

Edited April 28, 2005 by Antti Hynonen

[Mark Stapleton]

There's a famous picture of JFK delivering his final speech outside the hotel in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22. Looking on is LBJ in a white trench coat with a knowing expression on his face that, for me, says it all.

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And what's Connally so worried about? ("My God, I wonder if they're going to kill us all.")

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Hi Ron,

Thanks for that. Regarding LBJ, this photo really speaks a thousand words. By the way, is that Roy Kellerman in the foreground sharing LBJ's wardrobe consultant? I agree Governor Connally looks surprisingly stern. I think JFK's impromptu speech was a slight dig at Texas and it's politics, a warm up for what he was planning to say at the Trade Mart. This might account for the Governor's disapproving glare.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark, I think it's of great interest that late in the Cuban missile crisis, Robert Kennedy met with Ambassador Dobrynin at the Soviet Embassy and told him that his brother feared a military takeover if the President did not act.

A military takeover.  How would this have been accomplished?

The Kennedys knew what they were up against.  Having come so close to death in the past, I don't think John Kennedy feared it.  I don't think the assassination was a surprise to Robert either.  That could explain some of RFK's behavior after his brother's murder.

Cheers!

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Stan,

That is interesting. I recall that scene with RFK and Dobrynin from the movie "Thirteen Days" but I must have missed the reference to a military takeover. It's possible that RFK was overdramatising the situation in order to elicit the desired response but it's interesting all the same.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark and Stan

Thank you for the questions and imput.  Fletcher Knebel, one of the two authors of Seven Days in May was a friend of Kennedy's.  The book is a futuristic stroy about a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who attempts to take over the government (edwin Walker's name is mentioned in the novel).  Was this book a look into kennedy's worst fears?  Interesting question.  The movie was scheduled to be released shortly after Kennedy was assassinated........

When I look at Taylor there are at least six things that bug me about his possible involvement.

1.  His relationship with Walker that extended back to 1927.

2. His possible ability to control the selection of the motorcade route through General Chester Clifton (whose first CO after graduation from West Point was Edwin Walker).

3.  His potential pre-knowledge of an intelligence mission surrounding the downing of Francis Gary Powers U-2 that would have involved Oswald.

4.  His dramatic rise to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Kennedy (reward?) after a very close election battle where he supported Kennedy and may have sabatoged Nixon.

5.  His repeated use of Walker for the most sensitive jobs (Taiwan, Little Rock,  and perhaps Oswald's defection to Russia).

6.  The only man on the planet that could have known that Oswald may have been the person with a reason to shoot at Walker in April, 1963.

Food for thought.

Jim Root

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Jim,

According to IMDb, "Seven Days in May" was released in the U.S. on February 12, 1964. Having been written and filmed prior to the assassination makes it almost prophetic.

Back to the NSA, according to "Invisible Government", the first non-military director of the agency was Eugene G. Fubini, an Italian born physicist whose appointment was confirmed by the Senate in 1963. He had been questioned during the Armed Services Committee hearings in June 1963 about his political affiliations in Italy prior to his emigration to the U.S. in 1939. After working in the Airborne Instruments Laboratory in New York, he joined the Pentagon in 1961 and became convinced that vital national secrets were being given to the Russians through careless public disclosure. Prominent on his list of security violations were public statements made by Defense Secretary McNamara and his Deputy. The Agency came under the direct control of Defense Secretary. Why would he criticise his boss?

Apparently the agency had suffered from many security scandals since its inception and when the House voted in 1963 to give the Defense Secretary absolute power to fire NSA employees without explanation or appeal it created a controversy with Thomas Gill, Hawaii Democrat, claiming that it opened the way to "arbitrary and capricious actions on the part of Government administrators". It was likened to "the Soviet Union, Red China and Castro's Cuba". None of this takes us very far in trying to find a connection with the assassination and this strange little agency except for the observation that it may have provided more evidence to those in authority that JFK was trying to take them further down the Communist path. That lousy pinko.

[Greg Wagner]

Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but who was the head of the NSA in the Fall of 1963 and to whom did he report?

[Mark Stapleton]

Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but who was the head of the NSA in the Fall of 1963 and to whom did he report?

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Greg,

According to the aforementioned book Eugene G Fubini took over in 1963. It doesn't say which month. A sub agency of Defense, it is "watched over" by the Deputy director of defence, research and engineering. The book was published in 1964 so things may have changed. Nor does the book cite who Fubini's predecessor was, only that the job of overseeing the NSA was previously held by military men.

[Jim Root]

Mark

Good post:

"According to the aforementioned book Eugene G Fubini took over in 1963. It doesn't say which month. A sub agency of Defense, it is "watched over" by the Deputy director of defence, research and engineering. The book was published in 1964 so things may have changed. Nor does the book cite who Fubini's predecessor was, only that the job of overseeing the NSA was previously held by military men."

This means that on the flow chart in 1963 the NSA would have been under the control of General Maxwell Taylor and you can bet that the same FBI notes (Hosty) that were being read in Richard Helms office (before the assassination) via Thomas Karamessines made it to the upper echelons of the NSA as well.

Jim Root

[Shanet Clark]

Mark and Jim and Members;

Have you all read "The Puzzle Palace" by James Bamford?

He also wrote "Pretext for War" about 9/11 and the current US/Iraq war.

That was my main source on the role of the NSA in preventing assassinations.

The NSA was a fully mobilized "black bag" and covert ops agency, and its status as a military agency is still debated.

My point is, again, that quite a bit of covert domestic joint agency operations had little or nothing to do with the CIA itself.

People forget that,

but with Oswald, Edwin Walker and the Mannlicher Carcano case of 1963,

I say the CIA was a minor player........the ONI springs to mind, because of JFK's background, Oswald's background and the conservatism of the "admiralty"

Who was in a position to judge a president's loyalty, his clearance or his capacity?

Not really the CIA, that type of executive clearance is something that would emerge from JCS or Betheda Hospital and the Secretary of the Navy or Treasury, based on NSA originating information.

Compared to the NSA, JCS and MI agencies,

the FBI and CIA are just window dressings

.......

Edited May 15, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Jim Root]

Shanet

"Compared to the NSA, JCS and MI agencies, the FBI and CIA are just window dressings"

Couldn't agree more. Remember that in the 50's NSA stood for No Such Agency.

I might add that before the US entry into WWII John J. McCloy was sent by the Secretary of War, with the blessing of the President, to study the British Intelligence system. He then established and oversaw the OSS, although Donavan is given the credit. He was the lead agent in keeping portions of the Army Intelligence Agencies alive when Truman ordered the OSS disolved. McCloy wrote the plan and authorized the orders that led to the development of the CIA and the NSC. He was around for the beginning of NSA, NATO and the regeneration of Germany.

It is my belief that McCloy is the one man who was tasked with keeping all the "agencies" together just as the British have a single person they designate as "C" for CHIEF over all intelligence organizations.

Jim Root

Jim Root

[Shanet Clark]

He's the executive, in the executive sanction model.

Max Taylor was the Military Executive, CD Dillon the Treasury Secret Service Executive...it just takes a few.

The Twentieth Amendment makes it clear that a small counsel of Presidential Advisors had the ability to remove a President.

Taylor, Dulles, McCloy, McCone, these were the executives of the day,

who saw themselves as the sovereign force.........

[Mark Stapleton]

He's the executive, in the executive sanction model.

Max Taylor was the Military Executive,  CD Dillon the Treasury Secret Service Executive...it just takes a few.

The Twentieth Amendment makes it clear that a small counsel of Presidential Advisors had the ability to remove a President.

Taylor, Dulles, McCloy, McCone, these were the executives of the day,

who saw themselves as the sovereign force.........

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Shanet,

The more I read of the Executive Sanction Model, the more I like it. Does anyone think there could be some significance in the timing of Fubini's appointment?

[Gerry Hemming]

Mark and Jim and Members;

Have you all read "The Puzzle Palace" by James Bamford?

He also wrote "Pretext for War" about 9/11 and the current US/Iraq war.

That was my main source on the role of the NSA in preventing assassinations.

The NSA was a fully mobilized "black bag" and covert ops agency, and its status as a military agency is still debated.

My point is, again, that quite a bit of covert domestic joint agency operations had little or nothing to do with the CIA itself.

People forget that,

but with Oswald, Edwin Walker and the Mannlicher Carcano case of 1963,

I say the CIA was a minor player........the ONI springs to mind, because of JFK's background, Oswald's background and the conservatism of the "admiralty"

Who was in a position to judge a president's loyalty, his clearance or his capacity?

Not really the CIA, that type of executive clearance is something that would emerge from JCS or Betheda Hospital and the Secretary of the Navy or Treasury, based on NSA originating information.

Compared to the NSA, JCS and MI agencies,

the FBI and CIA are just window dressings

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FINALLY !!

Some exactly-on-the-point scrivenings by this earnest researcher. However, most of the covertwork was farmed out by NSA, et al. to Rockwell International and their private armies. Most of the planning, briefing, etc. over the years took place ["In Isolation"] at the nuke warhead plants at Hanford, WA; Rocky Flats, CO; and Oak Ridge, TN. Some of my kin were 18-wheeler haulers, and did a lot of the "carrying" for these folks working at the above-mentioned sites.

The Hollywood filmsters repeatedly made reference to the "behind-the-scenes/invisible goverment as "THE TELEPHONE COMPANY".

Thanks for that sharp insight, my roids needed some relief. Now I will return to my fantasies of a real wannabe, trying, like Walter Mitty, to outdo Forrest Gump. While Weberman never got me on tape or video ranting ant-semetic [Jews (of the Tribes, not Russian Kazakhs -- and Palestinians)]; he did congeal some anti-homosexual jokes -- and thereafter, when somebody came out of the blue [1st impression style] ranting against me -- it was traced back to the "diverse-sexuality" of the ranter. 'DON'T ASK, AND I WON'T TELL !!'

Pray forgive me for picking on the Homos !!

Respectfully ending the conversation,

GPH

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[Lee Forman]

Mr. Hemming,

Some exactly-on-the-point scrivenings by this earnest researcher.  However, most of the covertwork was farmed out by NSA, et al. to Rockwell International and their private armies.  Most of the planning, briefing, etc. over the years took place ["In Isolation"] at the nuke warhead plants at Hanford, WA; Rocky Flats, CO; and Oak Ridge, TN.  Some of my kin were 18-wheeler haulers, and did a lot of the "carrying" for these folks working at the above-mentioned sites.

The Hollywood filmsters repeatedly made reference to the "behind-the-scenes/invisible goverment as "THE TELEPHONE COMPANY".

One more time on Jim Phelps 'Mission Impossible.' The fact that LHO allegedly visited Oak Ridge is very intriguing. Wish Jim P didn't adlib so much. He has LHO going to Oak Ridge to get the poison required to off Castro, as opposed to a sitdown on Kennedy.

http://www.doewatch.com/jfk.html

What's his hit rate in terms of % accuracy? Seems like he puts a lot together on his own, and too much of it doesn't add - like his Sirhan Sirhan scenario, or his record of shots fired in DP, among others.

- lee