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Did Oswald know?


Guest Eugene B. Connolly

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Haven't I read that the hammer of LHO's pistol came down on the web of McDonald's hand?

That's the version McDonald wrote in a memoir entitled "The Arrest and Capture of Lee Harvey Oswald," as quoted in McDonald's obituary.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...xlee.cfac4.html

Ron

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Bernard Haire's story has always caught my attention, makes one wonder who that person was who was arrested, I dont recall that arrest ever being in any police reports. I wonder if this person was there to get rid of Oswald or meet with him and his chance to do one or the other went out the window when Oswald got arrested. (Ryan Crowe)

Hi Ryan,

The fact that this character was taken out the back door seems to suggest several things. One, there was indeed an Oswald impersonator. Two, the original plan itself had run off the rails. Three, the impersonator needed to be surrepticiously removed from the scene.

I guess this is all speculation at best but it sure adds another twist to a tale that is already full of twists.

James

Hi James:

Bernard Haire's story has fascinated me for years. You would think that at least one of the Dallas Police officers who brought the suspect out the rear of the movie theater would've spoke about it by now. I'm not doubting that it happened, and I would like to have the identity of just one of the arresting officers who came out that back door with the "other " suspect.

Bill C

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Hi James:

Bernard Haire's story has fascinated me for years. You would think that at least one of the Dallas Police officers who brought the suspect out the rear of the movie theater would've spoke about it by now. I'm not doubting that it happened, and I would like to have the identity of just one of the arresting officers who came out that back door with the "other " suspect.

Bill C (Bill Cheslock)

Indeed, Bill.

I guess we can speculate that if the guy removed out the back door was connected to the assassination plot, then the cops involved would have been on the payroll. I don't like to lump the whole DPD in with the dirty laundry but the corruption of certain individuals seems evident given the poor investigation, a sloppy chain of command and the execution of Oswald in their house with dozens of officers present.

Like you, I don't doubt that the incident at the Texas Theater occured and if it was not connected to the assassination or if it was just a witness being escorted out, then why hasn't anyone from official channels spoken about it?

It's another one of those frustrating aspects that I fear may remain unexplained.

James

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Guest Eugene B. Connolly

Re MRs. Reid: It is clear from both her original affidavit

and her WC testimony that Mrs. Reid told him that she

didn't know if the president had been hit.

Ray,

I have checked Marrs and Mrs Reid's words to Oswald were something like:

"Oh! Someone has shot at the President but I don't think they hit him."

You were right.

EBC

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Hi James:

      Bernard Haire's story has fascinated me for years.  You would think that at least on

Like you, I don't doubt that the incident at the Texas Theater occured and if it was not connected to the assassination or if it was just a witness being escorted out, then why hasn't anyone from official channels spoken about it?

It's another one of those frustrating aspects that I fear may remain unexplained.

James

I'm not sure if this ties in with Haire's story but I seem to remember reading where the shoe salesman who IDed Oswald was brought out the back door after pointing him out to the cops.

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I'm not sure if this ties in with Haire's story but I seem to remember reading where the shoe salesman who IDed Oswald was brought out the back door after pointing him out to the cops. (Pat Speer)

Pat,

There is a real possibility that Johnny Brewer was the guy Haire saw and the explanation is as simple as that. My only question would be that Haire said he saw what he thought was the arrest of Oswald. By suggesting 'an arrest', one might conclude that the man was removed with some force as opposed to just being escorted calmly from the building.

That aside, it would be so much easier if it was Brewer. The conflicting reports post assassination are plentiful enough without adding this incident to them. :clapping

James

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I'm not sure if this ties in with Haire's story but I seem to remember reading where the shoe salesman who IDed Oswald was brought out the back door after pointing him out to the cops. (Pat Speer)

Pat,

There is a real possibility that Johnny Brewer was the guy Haire saw and the explanation is as simple as that. My only question would be that Haire said he saw what he thought was the arrest of Oswald. By suggesting 'an arrest', one might conclude that the man was removed with some force as opposed to just being escorted calmly from the building.

That aside, it would be so much easier if it was Brewer. The conflicting reports post assassination are plentiful enough without adding this incident to them.  B)

James

*********************************************

Hi James:

This may help in your search in this area, from John Armstrong, am posting the link as there is more info in the article re the man in the Texas Theatre and also some very enlightening research into the leading up to his arrest......there is also mention of the FBI report that the firing pin of LHOs revolver was bent, which means that he could not have shot Tippit..

:clapping B

Man in the Balcony, Man in the Alley

Johnny C. Brewer claimed that on the day of the assassination, he saw a man standing in the lobby of his shoe store at about 1:30 PM. He watched the man walk west on Jefferson and thought (Brewer says he is not positive) that he ducked into the Texas Theater. It was not until December 6th, two weeks after Harvey Oswald's arrest, that Brewer described the man he saw as wearing a brown shirt. He asked theater cashier Julia Postal if she had sold the man a ticket. Postal replied "she did not think so, but she had been listening to the radio and did not remember." She did remember, when testifying before the Warren Commission, that she sold 24 tickets that day.

The Texas Theater has a main floor level and a balcony. Upon entering the theater from the "outside doors," there are stairs leading to the balcony on the right. Straight ahead are a second set of "inside doors" leading to the concession stand and the main floor. It is possible to go directly to the balcony, without being seen by people at the concession stand, by climbing the stairs to the right. Brewer walked through the first and second set of double doors to the concession stand. He asked Butch Burroughs, who operated the concession stand, if he had seen the man come in. Burroughs said that he had been busy and did not notice. Brewer checked the darkened balcony but did not see the man he had followed. Brewer and Burroughs then checked and made sure the exits had not been opened. Brewer then went back to the box office and told Julia Postal he thought the man was still in the theater and to call the police.

Julia called the police. Police broadcasts at 1:45 PM reported "Have information a suspect just went into the Texas Theater . . . Supposed to be hiding in the balcony" (17H418). When the police arrived, they were told by a "young female," probably Julia Postal, that the man was in the balcony. The police who entered the front of the theater went to the balcony. They were questioning a young man when Officers Walker, McDonald and Hutson entered the rear of the theater. Hutson counted seven theater patrons on the main level. From the record, these seven would break down as follows:

2 Two boys (half way down center section searched by Walker & McDonald while Hutson looked on)

1 Oswald (3rd row from back-center section)

1 Jack Davis (right rear section-Oswald first sat next to him)

1 Unknown person (across the aisle from Davis-Oswald left his seat next to Davis and moved to a seat next to this person; Oswald then got up and walked into the theater lobby)

1 George Applin (6 rows from back-center section)

1 John Gibson (1st seat from the back on the far right side)

Oswald bought popcorn at 1:15 PM, walked to the main floor and reportedly took a seat next to a pregnant woman. Minutes before police arrived, this woman disappeared into the balcony and was never seen again. She was not one of the seven patrons counted by Officer Hutson.

Captain Westbrook and FBI Agent Barrett came into the theater from the rear entrance minutes later. Westbrook may have been looking for "Lee Harvey Oswald"-identified from the contents of the wallet he found at the scene of Tippit's murder.

From police broadcasts, the police were looking for a suspect wearing a white shirt, white jacket, with dark brown or black hair, and hiding in the balcony. But their attention quickly focused on a man wearing a brown shirt with medium brown hair, on the main floor. When this man was approached by Officer McDonald, he allegedly hit McDonald and then tried to fire his .38 revolver. Several police officers and theater patrons heard the "snap" of a pistol trying to fire. A cartridge was later removed from the .38 and found to have an indentation on the primer. An FBI report described the firing pin as "bent." The man in the brown shirt, Harvey Oswald, was subdued by Officers Hawkins, Hutson, Walker, Carroll and Hill, and then handcuffed. Captain Westbrook ordered the officers to "get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him." As he was taken out the front, Julia Postal heard an officer remark "We have our man on both counts." In an FBI report, we find the following:

this was the first time that she [Postal] had heard of Tippit's death, and one of the officers identified the man they arrested by calling out his name, "Oswald".… (Emphasis added. FBI report 2/29/64 by Arthur E. Carter.)

If the person who identified Oswald by name was Captain Westbrook, he could have obtained Oswald's name from identification-perhaps the Texas driver's license-in Lee Oswald's wallet found at the scene of the Tippit shooting. If someone other than Captain Westbrook identified Oswald by name, then someone in the Dallas Police had prior knowledge of Oswald. Identification of the policeman who made this statement might have aided in answering this question.

Harvey Oswald, the man wearing the "brown shirt," who probably bought a ticket from Julia Postal, bought popcorn from Butch Burroughs at 1:15 PM, sat next to Jack Davis before the main feature began at 1:20 PM, sat next to another identified patron, and then sat next to a pregnant woman (who disappeared), was brought out the front entrance and placed in a police car. En route to City Hall, Oswald kept repeating "Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested?" In light of the above, it was a good question to pose.

The police (Lt. Cunningham and Detective John B. Toney) did question a man in the balcony of the theater. Lt. Cunningham said "We were questioning a young man who was sitting on the stairs in the balcony when the manager told us the suspect was on the first floor." Detective Toney said "There was a young man sitting near the top of the stairs and we ascertained from manager on duty that this subject had been in the theater since about 12:05 PM." Notice that both Cunningham and Toney say they spoke to the "manager." Manager? We know from Postal's testimony that the owner of the theater, John Callahan, left for the day around 1:30 PM. The projectionist remained in the projection room during Oswald's arrest. Julia Postal remained outside at the box office. Burroughs was the only other theater employee and, according to his testimony, he "stayed at the door at the rear of the theater" (near the concession stand), "did not see any struggle" and then "remained at the concession stand" during Oswald's arrest. Burroughs never left the main level of the theater. Clearly, neither Postal, Burroughs, nor the projectionist (the only theater employees on duty) spoke to these officers either in the balcony or on the stairs in the balcony. Someone either identified himself as a theater "manager," or the officers mistook someone as the theater "manager," or these officers were lying about speaking to the "manager." The "manager" and the person whom they questioned in the balcony remain unidentified.

Oddly, and inconsistently, the police homicide report of Tippit's murder reads "suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson." Detective Stringfellow's report states "Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater." After (Harvey) Oswald's arrest Lt. E..L. Cunningham, Detective E.E. Taylor, Detective John Toney, and patrolman C.F. Bentley were directed to search all of the people in the balcony and obtain their names and addresses. Out of 24 (the number of tickets Postal said she sold) theater patrons that day, the Dallas Police provided the names of two-John Gibson and George Applin. If the names of the other 22 theater patrons were obtained, that list has disappeared. The identity of the man questioned by police in the balcony remains a mystery. He was not arrested and there is no police report, record of arrest, nor mention of any person other than Oswald. What happened to this man? What happened to the list of theater patrons?

Captain C.E. Talbert and some officers were questioning a boy in the alley while a pickup truck was sitting with the motor running a few yards away (24H242). Talbert was one of the few DPD officers at the Texas Theater who did not write a report of Oswald's arrest to Chief Curry (16 officers wrote such reports). Talbert's testimony before the Warren Commission runs for over 20 pages. At no time was he asked about his involvement at the Texas Theater or his questioning of a young man in the alley behind the theater.

Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors from the theater, walked out the rear of his shop shortly before 2:00 PM and saw police cars backed up to Madison Street. He watched as the police escorted a man from the rear of the Texas Theater wearing a "white pullover shirt." They placed the man in a squad car and drove away. He noticed the man was very "flush" in the face as though he had been in a struggle. Haire's description of this man-"white shirt" with a "flush face"-is consistent with witness statements of Tippit's killer before, during and after the shooting. For 25 years Mr. Haire and other witnesses thought they had witnessed the arrest of Oswald behind the Texas Theater in the alley. When told Oswald was brought out the front of the theater Haire asked "Then who was the person I saw police take out the rear of the theater, put in a police car, and drive off ?"

http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr198-jfk.html

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Thanks, Bernice. That is very interesting indeed.

Haire said the guy taken out the back of the theater was wearing a white pullover shirt. I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that Brewer was wearing a coat and tie so it sounds like two different people.

BTW, do you know if this is Julia Postal below?

James

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Thanks, Bernice. That is very interesting indeed.

Haire said the guy taken out the back of the theater was wearing a white pullover shirt. I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that Brewer was wearing a coat and tie so it sounds like two different people.

BTW, do you know if this is Julia Postal below?

James

James:

In Robert Groden's book, "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald"

there is a photo of Julia Postal on page 147. The woman above doesn't

look like the woman in Groden's photo, but if you have a copy of the book

you might decide for yourself.

Bill Cheslock

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James:

In Robert Groden's book, "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald"

there is a photo of Julia Postal on page 147. The woman above doesn't

look like the woman in Groden's photo, but if you have a copy of the book

you might decide for yourself. (Bill Cheslock)

Hi Bill,

I don't have Groden's book so hopefully a forum member can post the image you cited. I have no idea who the woman is in the image I posted, just a wild stab in the dark.

James

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James:

            In Robert Groden's book, "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald"

there is a photo of Julia Postal on page 147.  The woman above doesn't

look like the woman in Groden's photo, but if you have a copy of the book

you might decide for yourself. (Bill Cheslock)

Hi Bill,

I don't have Groden's book so hopefully a forum member can post the image you cited. I have no idea who the woman is in the image I posted, just a wild stab in the dark.

James

James:

I would post the photo but unfortunately, my scanner is not cooperating

with me at the moment. I have to find the glitch. I hope a member is able to

post it for us.

Bill

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Here's that photo of Julia Postal from Groden's book, "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald." It's not a great shot, but it doesn't look like the same women. Below that is John Calvin Brewer from the same book.

Roger

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Here's that photo of Julia Postal from Groden's book, "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald." It's not a great shot, but it doesn't look like the same women. Below that is John Calvin Brewer from the same book.

Roger

Thanks, Roger.

The image I posted is definitely not Julia Postal. I wonder who she is as she was present at the Texas Theater?

James

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I've also seen the following attributed to Oswald:

"You're the police; you figure it out..."

Anyone know the source for this quote? Did he really say this? If so, when and under what circumstances?

I can't find this quote in Mae Brussell's compilation.

Hi all.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that the above quote is from one of the detectives in an episode of TMWKK.

At the time they said they had found two forms of ID on Lee & where asking who he was, Hiddell or Oswald.

The "you figure it out" response was what they said they got.

It is also seen in Stones "JFK" of course.

Speaking of which, that "I don't know what dispatches you people have been given...." line, is a little curiousity because not so long ago, I was running a video tape back & forth trying to figure out exactly what Oswald was saying while being escorted along a corridor packed with reporters.

In the sequence, Lee ducks his head to the side to get close to a particular reporter who probably threw a question at him.

He head goes out of shot for a moment & his voice is somewhat muffled.

But this is when he says that sentence I think.

Btw, Stone has him saying;

"I don't know what dispatches you people have been given but I emphatically deny these charges".

www.jfk-online.com/jfkoldman.html

As for your original question Eugene, I think this guy was very intelligent & with all that authority around him at the DPD. if he didn't know the condition of his President he would of asked someone IMO.

"Naturally if I work in that building....Yes, sir"

That's my personal favourite :cheers

Alan

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As for your original question Eugene, I think this guy was very intelligent & with all that authority around him at the DPD. if he didn't know the condition of his President he would of asked someone IMO.

That sounds as though he was in the presence of authorities who were only there to help him. The fact is he was deprived of a citizen's liberty and he made it clear that by his account he was being held for reasons he did not understand. The attitude of the DPD AND the Press appears to have been one of "VEE VILL ASK DEE QVESTIONS"

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