Dal-Tex

[Pat Speer]

OK guys, get prepared to get pissed off, but after having read Kenneth Rahn's site about the neutron activation analysis, and concluding he was Rahng, I found myself convinced on one point that he made with the help of Larry Sturdivan, and that's that the Tague fragment most likely came from the missing lead of the bullet hitting Kennedy in the head at 313. The trajectory to the cut in the curb by Tague back to Kennedy at 313 passes right between the trajectory of the nose and tail of the bullet onto the front windshield from Kennedy, and is only a few inches higher. Sturdivan did the math and showed that the distance traveled was consistant with the drop expected of an exiting fragment. We should remember that the curb cut revealed only lead, and no copper, indicating that whatever made the cut was unjacketed and probably a fragment.

Of course, this means the fatal head shot came from the TSBD, which some people refuse to accept, despite the numerous witnesses and the ballistic evidence. That doesn't mean a shot wasn't fired from elsewhere. As stated earlier on this thread, I believe the neck shot came from the Dal-Tex.

[Robin Unger]

If the limo was slowing was it to help the agent climb on the back and to minimize the risk of injury to Jackie?  Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim.

Yes that was the exact comment i made on the other forum when reffering to this image.

Greer would not want jackie to be thrown off the back of the limo.

[Pat Speer]

A careful analysis of the various films shows that the limo slowed down, but did not stop, after the first shot was fired and Greer stupidly turned around to see what was going on. Like most drivers who turn around, he simply took his foot off the gas, and even briefly braked. At the explosion of Kennedy's head, the motorcyclists on his right side panicked and slammed on their brakes. This may have caused others in the motorcade to slam on their brakes, like in a traffic jam. But the limo never came to a complete stop.

If I remember right, Greer admitted to Sibert and O'Neil that he slowed down and turned around but later changed his story after the WC was formed. Obviously the SS had entered the CYA zone.

Edited April 24, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Antti Hynonen]

Tim Gratz Posted Today, 07:45 AM

  If the limo was slowing was it to help the agent climb on the back and to minimize the risk of injury to Jackie? Just a thought.

From what I recall occurred according to the Zapruder film, the limo starts to slow down, Kennedy gets shot in the head. Simultaenously the SS agent leaves the SS car and runs for the President's limo, and sees his head blown to pieces before he reaches the car. That's when Jackie climbs onto the trunk to pick up a piece of JFK's skull.

In my view the limo was slowing down before the agent left the follow-up car.

I don't think any radio traffic on the SS radio's or any of the testimony says anything about requesting the Presidential limo to slow down so another agent can reach it from the back. Afterall there were already two agents in the car. Another picture shows the break lights on as the agent has just left the SS follow-up car.

[John Simkin]

Al Carrier has asked me to pass on this message:

First of all, Ryan is quick to rule out military snipers due to the number of shots and misses. What he is not taking into consideration is that we are dealing with a moving target that is not a norm for sniper training to begin with, plus a mover that is moving a varying speeds and angles, which makes a constant pan impossible and causes the shooter to rely on anticipation. This anticipation would become all the more difficult if the shots were synchronized from one shot origin.

Another factor would be elevation of the shot origin. Even if the shooter firing from a higher elevation would have sighted the rifle in at such an elevation factor, the distance travel of the moving target would vary this elevation angle considerably as the shot sequence went.

In regards to the fragment striking Tague, this fragment would have had to have dispersed from the intact projectile rather close to where Tague was struck to reach him. The lighter the projectile, the quicker it loses it's energy and will not travel far. To believe the bullet fragmented on impact with the limo or a target within the limo and travelled to Tague is not realistic. After all, Tague was stung subconsciously with the impact so that tells us the frag was rather small and light.

[Ron Ecker]

Of course, this means the fatal head shot came from the TSBD, which some people refuse to accept, despite the numerous witnesses and the ballistic evidence. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A head shot may have come from the TSBD, but I wouldn't call it the "fatal" one. The shot from the front that blew out the back of JFK's head was enough all by itself to do him in. Any other head shot is conjectural, despite all the talk about JFK's hairline, cowlick, and external occipital protuberance.

Ron

[Mark Stapleton]

Tim Gratz Posted Today, 07:45 AM

  If the limo was slowing was it to help the agent climb on the back and to minimize the risk of injury to Jackie? Just a thought.

From what I recall occurred according to the Zapruder film, the limo starts to slow down, Kennedy gets shot in the head. Simultaenously the SS agent leaves the SS car and runs for the President's limo, and sees his head blown to pieces before he reaches the car. That's when Jackie climbs onto the trunk to pick up a piece of JFK's skull.

In my view the limo was slowing down before the agent left the follow-up car.

I don't think any radio traffic on the SS radio's or any of the testimony says anything about requesting the Presidential limo to slow down so another agent can reach it from the back. Afterall there were already two agents in the car. Another picture shows the break lights on as the agent has just left the SS follow-up car.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Antti,

Yes, this is what I recall from the Z film also. The limo actually slowed a couple of seconds before the agent climbed in back (I might be wrong here). However, I think I read where one of the close witnesses, perhaps Moorman, was harshly critical of the driver when interviewed immediately after the assassination. It's probably understandable under the circumstances that Greer wasn't subjected to an inquisition on this but it would be very interesting to know for sure whether it did actually stop. It's also possible that stopping the car was a panic reaction by Greer or that he anticipated too early that the agent was climbing in. It's a small but interesting part of the case, IMO, and the WC didn't try to make it any clearer.

[Mark Stapleton]

I think I must be getting slow in my old age because, as John stated, there's a large thread on this very subject under the title "William Greer and JFK" started by James Richards. My thanks to all the contributors on that, it's a very interesting thread if you're interested in this small aspect of the case. Most remarkable revelation, IMO, is that Bill Greer didn't personally like JFK, as told to Palamara by Greer's son. Not quite enough evidence to prove guilt, IMO, but provocative all the same.

[Ryan Crowe]

First of all, Ryan is quick to rule out military snipers due to the number of shots and misses. What he is not taking into consideration is that we are dealing with a moving target that is not a norm for sniper training to begin with, plus a mover that is moving a varying speeds and angles, which makes a constant pan impossible and causes the shooter to rely on anticipation.

Just after President Kennedy's limousine passed the front steps of the TSBD, five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the right rear of the limousine. Witnesses saw this bullet kick up concrete toward the car...Thats just not a miss, that is FUBAR

No its not the norm for military snipers shooting at moving targets I agree, yet they do it everday in Iraq. Yes varying speeds and angles, but they were not drastic moves and angles, Did the limo slam on its breaks as a shot was fired? Then I could understand missing the limo all together, or did the ss agent put the peddle to the floor?

When I think of shooting and skill from a elevated position by a sniper, I think of SGT. Hancock who has the longest confirm kill's in Iraq, 1050 yards from a elevated position/building....

These are just my opinions, I state nothing on fact, And nobody else can when it comes to how the shots were fired. All anyone can do is give a opinion.

IMHO These were decent shooters firing at the president, IMHO Cuban exiles/ and there trainers, I have seen more evidence leading to these people being the feet on the ground then anyone else.

This is something that Al and I will have to agree to disagree.

[Robin Unger]

Credit:Bill/Bernice.

[Tim Gratz]

Mark wrote:

Most remarkable revelation, IMO, is that Bill Greer didn't personally like JFK, as told to Palamara by Greer's son. . .

Mark, the Secret Service agents closest to Kennedy were aware, of course, of his exrtacirricular affairs. It is not unreasonanle to assume that a Secret Service agent would be offended by such conduct particularly coming from the president. I do not consider that remarkable. I would consider it remarkable if many were NOT offended.

But to imply that Greer's dislike of Kennedy gave him a reason to participate in his assassination defies all logic. If you want to go there, you are probably adding as suspects ten million or more Americans who did not like Kennedy.

There were many Americans who simply destested William Jefferson Clinton. Even an intense dislike cannot be translated into possible participation in a murder.

[Robin Unger]

QUOTE:

Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on you in any way?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a thing hit me.

I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even known I was injured.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/greer.htm

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark wrote:

Most remarkable revelation, IMO, is that Bill Greer didn't personally like JFK, as told to Palamara by Greer's son. . .

Mark, the Secret Service agents closest to Kennedy were aware, of course, of his exrtacirricular affairs.  It is not unreasonanle to assume that a Secret Service agent would be offended by such conduct particularly coming from the president.  I do not consider that remarkable.  I would consider it remarkable if many were NOT offended.

But to imply that Greer's dislike of Kennedy gave him a reason to participate in his assassination defies all logic.  If you want to go there, you are probably adding as suspects ten million or more Americans who did not like Kennedy.

There were many Americans who simply destested William Jefferson Clinton.  Even an intense dislike cannot be translated into possible participation in a murder.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

I was referring to post#5 on the aforementioned thread, posted by Don Jeffries which said in part that the reason for Greer's dislike of JFK was "well, he was a Catholic you know". Extramarital affairs weren't mentioned. I stand by my statement that having a driver who personally dislikes the man he is entrusted to protect is remarkable. Further, his immediate braking (after the first shots) does nothing to allay suspicions. A competent driver would have hit the gas and yawed the car all over the place in order to protect the President. If you read that thread you'll discover there was widespread condemnation of his actions by witnesses. Ralph Yarborough, who was a lot closer to the event than you or I, was scathing. And your analogy re Bill Clinton leaves me totally perplexed. It's not relevant.

[Tim Gratz]

My gosh, that someone reacts inappropriately in a time of crisis, and the fact that a Secret Service agent did not like Kennedy's religion is no reason to brand him as a murderer!

Do you know whether there were even any Secret Service protocols re what to do when a car is being shot at? There was a car ahead of the limousine anyway so he could only accelerate so far.

I just don't think it is appropriate to tarnish the reputation of someone who was probably totally innocent on such little basis. My opinion, anyway.

[Pat Speer]

My gosh, that someone reacts inappropriately in a time of crisis, and the fact that a Secret Service agent did not like Kennedy's religion is no reason to brand him as a murderer!

Do you know whether there were even any Secret Service protocols re what to do when a car is being shot at?  There was a car ahead of the limousine anyway so he could only accelerate so far.

I just don't think it is appropriate to tarnish the reputation of someone who was probably totally innocent on such little basis.  My opinion, anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While you are probably correct to defend Greer, you are incorrect in stating he was in anyway limited in his ability to take action by the car in front of him. The car in which Curry and Decker were riding was more than a hundred feet away and could easily be passed if Greer was to put on the gas. We know this is so because that's what he did. The Daniel film reveals that the Presidential limousine had passed the lead car before they'd even cleared the railroad overpass.