Tramp Shots: Facial Recognition Software

[A.J. Weberman]

Is anyone out there willing to help me use facial recognition software on the tramp shots? Lets make news. I can't do it alone.

[John Geraghty]

Somebody please give him a hand so this can be sorted out once and for all.

[Antti Hynonen]

Sorry can't help with the software or computer based analysis, however, I can offer my opinion, which is based on looking at various different photo comparisons re the tramps e.g. on this forum and other websites.

Here goes: IMO most likely they are Gedney, Abrams et al. and probably not Hunt, Sturgis, Harrelson, or Holt etc. Why? Because photos from around 1963 show that the individuals named last do not resemble the tramps very closely at all. For example the old tramp is too old to be Hunt, also the tall tramp is about 5-7 years older than Harrelson was then. And who is Frenchy supposed to be? It doesn't mean that these guys are innocent or that they are not involved, it's just that I haven't seen a comparison yet that I could buy.

[Adam Wilkinson]

I would be interested in helping, I also can't help with the software or computer based analysis. But can help by offering my opinion and by looking at comparisons.

Edited June 28, 2005 by Adam Wilkinson

[Chuck Robbins]

Is anyone out there willing to help me use facial recognition software on the tramp shots? Lets make news. I can't do it alone.

If the offer still stands, and you have the software, I have the time.

I am a quick study so learning how to use the software would be no problem at all.

Didn't you run a forum some years ago?

[Kathleen Collins]

Is anyone out there willing to help me use facial recognition software on the tramp shots? Lets make news. I can't do it alone.

If the offer still stands, and you have the software, I have the time.

I am a quick study so learning how to use the software would be no problem at all.

Didn't you run a forum some years ago?

Thanks for helping him, Chuck. It sounds really interesting. Good luck. I think the tramps are E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis and Charles Harrelson. (BTW Harrelson died recently in prison.)

Kathy

[John Geraghty]

I'm trying to find the software or at least a company that would be able to use it. After watching a documentary on card counters yesterday, I know that a company called 'Griffin' has the technology and uses it in casinos worldwide to spot known counters.

I'm looking for something basic at the moment, but professional assistance would be infinitely better.

John

[William Kelly]

I'm trying to find the software or at least a company that would be able to use it. After watching a documentary on card counters yesterday, I know that a company called 'Griffin' has the technology and uses it in casinos worldwide to spot known counters.

I'm looking for something basic at the moment, but professional assistance would be infinitely better.

John

John,

There are a number of tech companies out there who are developing facial recognition softwarefor different purposes and with different degrees of success.

I think that we could probably convince one of them to assist in a project to id the tramps and the man in MC to a more refined certainty.

Among the companies I came up with :

Visage Technology/Identix merged (Aug. 29,2006) now L-1 Identity Solutions;

Neven Vision - Santa Monica

VeriLook - (Mac softwere)

Neuro Technologija - Lithuania

Cognitec Systems-

Gem Eyematic Interface - San Francisco- Hartmut Nevin.

BK

[John Geraghty]

http://www.l1id.com/

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2006/08/bet...ize-photos.html

http://www.shareup.com/VeriLook_SDK-download-14077.html Verilook free download (any takers?). I don't have a mac.

http://www.neurotechnologija.com/

http://www.cognitec-systems.de/

John

[Kathleen Collins]

I'm trying to find the software or at least a company that would be able to use it. After watching a documentary on card counters yesterday, I know that a company called 'Griffin' has the technology and uses it in casinos worldwide to spot known counters.

I'm looking for something basic at the moment, but professional assistance would be infinitely better.

John

John,

There are a number of tech companies out there who are developing facial recognition softwarefor different purposes and with different degrees of success.

I think that we could probably convince one of them to assist in a project to id the tramps and the man in MC to a more refined certainty.

Among the companies I came up with :

Visage Technology/Identix merged (Aug. 29,2006) now L-1 Identity Solutions;

Neven Vision - Santa Monica

VeriLook - (Mac softwere)

Neuro Technologija - Lithuania

Cognitec Systems-

Gem Eyematic Interface - San Francisco- Hartmut Nevin.

BK

Bill, I'd like facial recognition of the adult Donald O. Norton and the teenager Donald O. Norton. Ralph Geb -- yearbook picture and as adult. Lee Oswald and Donald O. Norton. These photos can be found on the blog Witness, starting in March 2006. thecloakofdarkness/blogspot.com

Kathy

[William Kelly]

I'm trying to find the software or at least a company that would be able to use it. After watching a documentary on card counters yesterday, I know that a company called 'Griffin' has the technology and uses it in casinos worldwide to spot known counters.

I'm looking for something basic at the moment, but professional assistance would be infinitely better.

John

John,

There are a number of tech companies out there who are developing facial recognition softwarefor different purposes and with different degrees of success.

I think that we could probably convince one of them to assist in a project to id the tramps and the man in MC to a more refined certainty.

Among the companies I came up with :

Visage Technology/Identix merged (Aug. 29,2006) now L-1 Identity Solutions;

Neven Vision - Santa Monica

VeriLook - (Mac softwere)

Neuro Technologija - Lithuania

Cognitec Systems-

Gem Eyematic Interface - San Francisco- Hartmut Nevin.

BK

Bill, I'd like facial recognition of the adult Donald O. Norton and the teenager Donald O. Norton. Ralph Geb -- yearbook picture and as adult. Lee Oswald and Donald O. Norton. These photos can be found on the blog Witness, starting in March 2006. thecloakofdarkness/blogspot.com

Kathy

Well Kathy,

you can pay them to do it.

I think that the state of the art facial recognition software can now help us ascertain the identities of the Tramps, Man in MC and others, but we would have to convince one of these companies to cooperate with our project.

BK

[Thomas Graves]

I think that the state of the art facial recognition software can now help us ascertain the identities of the Tramps, Man in MC and others, but we would have to convince one of these companies to cooperate with our project.

____________________________

I agree. And if they come up with results with which we cannot accept, not to worry-- we can always accuse them of working for the CIA! lol

--Thomas

____________________________

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I think that the state of the art facial recognition software can now help us ascertain the identities of the Tramps, Man in MC and others, but we would have to convince one of these companies to cooperate with our project.

BK

On looking through the list of face-recognition companies mentioned on this thread, I thought that Cognitec looked the most promising, so I wrote to Dr. Juergen Pampus, their marketing manager. He replied very promptly to my inquiry, advising that he does not think that face-recognition software can be very helpful with the tramp photos. I would encourage others to explore the issue with other companies.

Here is my recent exchange of emails with Dr. Pampus:

Dear Dr. Pampus:

I am writing to you on the supposition that Cognitec might be interested in cooperating with Rolling Stone Magazine on a high-profile test involving Cognitec's face recognition system.

The subject matter involves perhaps the most vexed and controversial issue in American history, and the test would involve comparing faces in black-and-white photographs. I understand that Mr. Hernandez, founder of Cognitec, has a special interest in B&W photography.

In a recent article (see link below), Rolling Stone magazine published an interview with St. John Hunt, son the Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt. Now that his father has died, St. John has made public certain information that he dared not speak about while his father was alive. St. John's most sensational revelation is that he can recognize his father's face in photograph's of three men dressed as tramps who were arrested in Dealey Plaza shortly after the murder of President John F. Kennedy. If in fact Howard Hunt was one of three men disguised as tramps, no innocent explanation for his presence at the assassination site seems possible on the evidence so far.

I have pointed out to Rolling Stone that by turning over this new evidence they now have an obligation to take the next logical step, namely to subject the tramp photos and Hunt photos to comparison using the latest technology in facial recognition. In this way it may be possible to confirm or refute the validity of St. John Hunt's identification of his father.

I do not represent Rolling Stone, but I do have contact with the JFK assassination researcher who is most knowledgeable about the history of the negatives of these tramp photos and their current whereabouts.

I think it would be quite appropriate for Cognitec to contact Rolling Stone magazine and offer to assist them in the situation their Hunt investigation has created for them.

I am researching a book on the assassination, hence my special interest in seeing this aspect of the JFK inquiry pursued to the frontiers of technology.

With Every Good Wish,

Raymond Carroll

Dr. Pampus replied:

Raymond,

We think that this is not a suitable use case for face recognition software. Its strength is that is can work automatically and very fast, but it is not more precise on a given pair of photos than a human being. You should probably try to find a forensic expert to do this.

Sorry!

Best regards,

Juergen Pampus

My response:

Dr. Pampus:

Thank you very much for your reply to my inquiry.

For purposes of such a controversial historical inquiry as this one, I submit that Cognitec's software promises something that no forensic expert, no matter how well qualified, can bring to the table, namely a complete absence of bias or preconceived opinion. Not only is the software unbiased by a preconception of history, it will be SEEN to be unbiased.

Granted that the software may not be more precise on a given pair of photos than a human being, it should have a degree of detached impartiality that would be difficult, if not impossible, for a human forensic expert to achieve.

I would respectfully urge Cognitec to reconsider this as a unique opportunity to demonstrate the value of its software to the hi-tech readership of Rolling Stone Magazine, while contributing to our understanding of this important historical event.

Best Wishes,

Raymond Carroll

Dr. Pampus replied:

Raymond,

Please understand that face recognition software (ours as well as that of other vendors) is not designed to deliver any meaningful result on such a comparison. The result of any two photos will be a numeric value like 0.4834 which does not mean anything to you nor to us. These values are relevant in cases where you do comparisons of images against large database to find a list of the most similars.

Best regards,

Juergen Pampus

[Ron Ecker]

Pampus doesn't make the software approach sound very promising. I would be interested in the opinion of a disguise expert (where do you find such a person?) on how Hunt (if the tramp was Hunt) was able to disguise himself to look older than he was. He obviously put something on his face. What in the world was it? I would like to see an expert demonstrate exactly how Hunt did it.

If the tall tramp was Sturgis, it looks like a blond wig did the trick. But Hunt had putty, rubber, or who knows what stuck on his face. Apparently. If it was Hunt. I'm again getting the feeling that this tramp business is another dead end and diversion. On the other hand, hope springs eternal.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I would be interested in the opinion of a disguise expert (where do you find such a person?) on how Hunt (if the tramp was Hunt) was able to disguise himself to look older than he was.

A.J. Weberman discusses this question on his website at nodule 20:

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec20.htm