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Incidently, just for extra unrelated info, I was also surprised to see John and Yoko sitting in the viewing section several times, during the hearings.    (Dixie Dea)

Hi Dixie,

I don't think Lennon was any fan of Nixon, to state the obvious. The song, 'Gimme Some Truth' is scathing toward government lies.

James

James

What is the deal with Eugenio Martinez and Virgilio Gonzalez?

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What is the deal with Eugenio Martinez and Virgilio Gonzalez? (Shanet Clark)

Hi Shanet,

Both of these guys are long time anti-Castro fighters and have been a part of the Agency's dirty tricks department since the early 1960's. Martinez (war name Musculito) was reknown for his boat piloting skills and went on over 300 missions into Cuba at the behest of the CIA.

Gonzalez (war name Villo) was Felipe Vidal Santiago's driver and personal assistant in Cuba. He was a fierce fighter and known as an excellent shot. Martinez and Gonzalez were close friends with John Martino and Eddie Bayo.

Both men were a part of Operation Tilt (Bayo-Pawley mission) and both men were arrested during the Watergate burglary. These guys have remained loyal to the CIA and took their lumps even when they were lied to.

These days, Martinez has several business interests in South Florida including real estate and car dealerships while Gonzalez runs a mobile locksmith business.

In the montage below, the top image is circa 1963. The mug shots are after their arrests for the Watergate burglary.

James

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I believe Martinez was also a pal of Cubela's and had colloborated with him in the murder of Batista's top security officer. Tim Gratz oughta love those implications!

Edited by Pat Speer
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We now know that all the Watergate burglars, except G. Gordon Liddy, had ties to the Kennedy assassination.

Shanet, are you sure about Liddy?

Your comment above caused me to dig out my copy of Liddy's book, WILL.

Liddy states: "In June, 1961,...the news came that I had been promoted to [FBI] Bureau Supervisor at "S.O.G." (for Seat of Government, as we called FBI national headquarters to distinguish it from "W.F.O.," or Washington Field Office)...I was assigned to Division 8, the Crime Records Division, headed by...Assistant Director of the FBI named Cartha DeLoach, known throughout the Bureau as Deke...I knew I was doing important work in furthering the reputation of the FBI and helping to defeat its critics in what was part of the COINTELPRO operation."

Liddy also mentions within this passage having knowledge of Hoover's files on the Kennedys regarding things of a sexual nature...and yet, supposedly over personal financial matters, he resigned from the FBI in September, 1962, to go into private law practice with his father.

What a coincidence...after the 1962 California gubernatorial election, Nixon ALSO went back into his private law practice.

While I can't say Liddly's hands were dirty, in regards to the JFK assassination, the timing of his resignation from the FBI, in combination with his glossing over of the period from late 1962 to 1965 in his book would, in retrospect, make a suspicious man [like me] wonder if he did, indeed, have something to hide regarding that period of time. And considering his background, and the absolute glee he expresses for his days with the FBI, it would seem quite out-of-character for Liddy, for us to assume that he spent the 1962-1965 period as MERELY an attorney.

But I realize that's MERELY specualtion on my part. Considering his prominence in the clandestine parts of Watergate, it strikes me odd that a mere attorney would be chosen for that role...even if he WAS ex-FBI. Now, if he had previously PROVEN himself, then Liddy's role in Watergate becomes more plausible.

But I CAN be sold...so convince me.

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On Liddy:

I meant only that he was not implicated in Dallas in a major way like the other burglars.

Hunt selected the squad, except for Liddy, who he inherited from CREEP.

Before Watergate Liddy was most well known for busting the Millbrook house in New York State, where Timothy Leary hosted sessions.

I wouldn't put anything past him, his fondness for "South Americans with German names" is well known.

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In their book, All The President’s Men, Bernstein and Woodward make several references to Dorothy Hunt being involved in negotiating the silence of the burglars. However, they mention her death without comment. This includes the fact that she was carrying a large sum of money that was to be paid to the “Cubans”. Nor do Bernstein and Woodward mention that a fellow victim was Michelle Clark, who was working on a story with Hunt about Watergate at the time. Very strange behaviour from these so-called “investigative journalists”.

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  • 3 weeks later...

:)

People have been discussing the crash of United Airlines Flight 553 in a heartless way. They focus so much on Dorothy Hunt that they ignore the other 44 people who died in the tragedy.

Are conspiracy theorists racist? If not, why do they ignore Michelle Clark, the first African American network television anchorwoman? She was one of the 45 people who died. She hardly could have been the target of a terrorist, right? Somebody wanted to kill a pioneering African American? Impossible.

Sherman Skolnick is not a reliable source. In 1999 he tried to make money from the theory that John Kennedy Jr. was murdered. He has been confined to a wheelchair for many years. That hampers his access to unpublished manuscripts and elderly people far away from his Chicago home. Best-selling authors like Anthony Summers depend on them, and Mr. Summers' mobility is important. Paralysis is a terrible thing, but that doesn't mean able-bodied people should believe everything a lame person says about people he's never met.

The 45 casualties of that horrific 1972 plane crash included two who were not onboard the plane. Veronica Kuculich and her daughter Theresa were in their Chicago home when the United Airlines plane hit them. They died. Why would people trying to cover up Watergate endanger two obscure Chicago residents who had no connection to the people in power involved with Watergate? This wasn't the Vietnam War, where innocent children died needlessly. We're talking about a runway at Chicago's Midway Airport and the modest suburban houses near it.

I will close with the words of John Simkin posted on May 16. Can he back up his theory with evidence?

Quote On

The death of [E. Howard Hunt's] wife, Dorothy, in a mysterious plane crash in Chicago still disturbs many people, especially since there were rumors from informed sources that she was about to leave him and perhaps even turn on him.

Quote Off

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Sherman Skolnick's chronic paralysis is a non-issue, but two portions of his 1973 testimony before the National Transportation Safety Board lower his credibility. You neglected to mention them.

They come from this web site.

Dubious Testimony Of Sherman Skolnick

First, Mr. Skolnick asserted that Michelle Clark, the pioneering Black television anchorwoman, sat next to Dorothy Hunt on the United Airlines plane. He provided no source. How could Mr. Skolnick or anyone else know the identity of Ms. Hunt's seatmate? We do know Michelle Clark was on the plane, and Mr. Skolnick evidently knows too little about American racism to investigate her as a potential target of a sinister conspiracy.

Second, Sherman Skolnick told the following not-very-funny joke at that 1973 hearing of the National Transportation Safety Board.

"I am here to admit that I have absolutely no proof whatever that Richard Nixon himself or Edward Carlson, the chairman of United Airlines, was on the plane with a 38 [caliber revolver] and shot Mrs. Hunt."

He said this to U.S. government officials who were trying to wrest a positive legacy out of a horrible tragedy that had occurred just a few months earlier. The loved ones of 45 people shattered by said tragedy lived near the NTSB hearing. Some could have been present. The joke suggests Mr. Skolnick had a sinister ulterior motive in the attention he drew to himself many decades before the Internet made such behavior so easy. Conveniently for him, the Internet was available when John Kennedy Jr. died in 1999. Mr. Skolnick used it to milk that aviation disaster, too, for all it was worth.

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People have been discussing the crash of United Airlines Flight 553 in a heartless way.    They focus so much on Dorothy Hunt that they ignore the other 44 people who died in the tragedy.

Are conspiracy theorists racist?  If not, why do they ignore Michelle Clark, the first African American network television anchorwoman?  She was one of the 45 people who died.  She hardly could have been the target of a terrorist, right?  Somebody wanted to kill a pioneering African American?  Impossible.

What a strange comment? It is also completely untrue. See the debate here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3728

You can also find a page on Michelle Clark here:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKclarkM.htm

You might want to look at the Dorothy Hunt page as well.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhuntD.htm

The reason Michelle Clark was with Dorothy Hunt was because she was investigating the Watergate Scandal. According to Sherman Skolnick: "Ms Clark had lots of insight into the bugging and cover-up through her boyfriend, a CIA operative."

Hunt had been threatening to reveal details of who paid him to organize the Watergate break-in. Dorothy Hunt took part in the negotiations with Charles Colson.

James W. McCord claimed that Dorothy told him that at a meeting with her husband's attorney, William O. Buttmann, she revealed that Hunt had information that would "blow the White House out of the water". In October, 1972, Dorothy Hunt attempted to speak to Charles Colson. He refused to talk to her but later admitted to the New York Times that she was "upset at the interruption of payments from Nixon's associates to Watergate defendants."

On 15th November, Colson met with Richard Nixon, H. R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman at Camp David to discuss Howard Hunt's blackmail threat. John N. Mitchell was also getting worried by Dorothy Hunt's threats and he asked John Dean to use a secret White House fund to "get the Hunt situation settled down". Eventually it was arranged for Frederick LaRue to give Hunt about $250,000 to buy his silence.

On 8th December, 1972, Clark and Dorothy Hunt took Flight 533 from Washington to Chicago. The aircraft hit the branches of trees close to Midway Airport: "It then hit the roofs of a number of neighborhood bungalows before plowing into the home of Mrs. Veronica Kuculich at 3722 70th Place, demolishing the home and killing her and a daughter, Theresa. The plane burst into flames killing a total of 45 persons, 43 of them on the plane, including the pilot and first and second officers. Eighteen passengers survived." Clark and Hunt were both killed in the accident.

The following month E. Howard Hunt pleaded guilty to burglary and wiretapping and eventually served 33 months in prison. Hunt kept his silence although another member of the Watergate team, James W. McCord, wrote a letter to Judge John J. Sirica claiming that the defendants had pleaded guilty under pressure (from John Dean and John N. Mitchell) and that perjury had been committed.

The airplane crash was blamed on equipment malfunctions. Carl Oglesby (The Yankee and Cowboy War) has pointed out that the day after the crash, White House aide Egil Krogh was appointed Undersecretary of Transportation, supervising the National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Association - the two agencies charged with investigating the airline crash. A week later, Nixon's deputy assistant Alexander P. Butterfield was made the new head of the FAA, and five weeks later Dwight L. Chapin, the president's appointment secretary, become a top executive with United Airlines.

Several writers, including Robert J. Groden, Peter Dale Scott, Alan J. Weberman, Sherman Skolnick and Carl Oglesby, have suggested that Dorothy Hunt and Michelle Clark were murdered. In 1974, Charles Colson, Howard Hunt's boss at the White House, told Time Magazine: "I think they killed Dorothy Hunt."

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People have been discussing the crash of United Airlines Flight 553 in a heartless way.    They focus so much on Dorothy Hunt that they ignore the other 44 people who died in the tragedy.

Are conspiracy theorists racist?   If not, why do they ignore Michelle Clark, the first African American network television anchorwoman?   She was one of the 45 people who died.   She hardly could have been the target of a terrorist, right?   Somebody wanted to kill a pioneering African American?   Impossible.

What a strange comment?

Why is it strange to point to the race card in a possibly racist event that happened many decades before somebody coined the phrase "race card?" Angela Davis, where are you when we need you? Maybe on another web site.

It is also completely untrue. See the debate here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3728

You can also find a page on Michelle Clark here:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKclarkM.htm

You might want to look at the Dorothy Hunt page as well.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhuntD.htm

The reason Michelle Clark was with Dorothy Hunt was because she was investigating the Watergate Scandal.

Your source on that? Why would Frank Stanton of CBS News assign the job to her when she was so young and one of the first widely visible token minorities?

According to Sherman Skolnick: "Ms Clark had lots of insight into the bugging and cover-up through her boyfriend, a CIA operative."

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Mr. Skolnick was a dubious source in 1973, and he remained one until 1999 when he prattled about JFK Jr. getting murdered. (That would mean his cousins throwing a fancy wedding wanted him dead.) How does Sherman Skolnick know Ms. Clark had a boyfriend when she had lived in DC for such a short time? I don't suppose he had a name. How can somebody contact him today or was he murdered, too?

Hunt had been threatening to reveal details of who paid him to organize the Watergate break-in. Dorothy Hunt took part in the negotiations with Charles Colson.

What does that have to do with United Airlines Flight 553? Hale Boggs took part in the Warren Commission a short time after JFK was shot, but his daughter says that had nothing to do with his death seven years later. Planes do crash, you know.

James W. McCord claimed that Dorothy told him that at a meeting with her husband's attorney, William O. Buttmann, she revealed that Hunt had information that would "blow the White House out of the water".

And she did NOT have said information, let's say, the week before the November election? She failed to understand the two-party system? If she did, was she too dumb to contact Democratic Party headquarters? Was she afraid it was bugged even though the people who tried to bug it got busted before they planted the bugs?

In October, 1972, Dorothy Hunt attempted to speak to Charles Colson. He refused to talk to her but later admitted to the New York Times that she was "upset at the interruption of payments from Nixon's associates to Watergate defendants."

On 15th November, Colson met with Richard Nixon, H. R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman at Camp David to discuss Howard Hunt's blackmail threat. John N. Mitchell was also getting worried by Dorothy Hunt's threats and he asked John Dean to use a secret White House fund to "get the Hunt situation settled down". Eventually it was arranged for Frederick LaRue to give Hunt about $250,000 to buy his silence.

On 8th December, 1972, Clark and Dorothy Hunt took Flight 533 from Washington to Chicago. The aircraft hit the branches of trees close to Midway Airport: "It then hit the roofs of a number of neighborhood bungalows before plowing into the home of Mrs. Veronica Kuculich at 3722 70th Place, demolishing the home and killing her and a daughter, Theresa. The plane burst into flames killing a total of 45 persons, 43 of them on the plane, including the pilot and first and second officers. Eighteen passengers survived." Clark and Hunt were both killed in the accident.

If the crash was a terrorist attack, which is the issue I'm addressing here (the Klan never sabotages planes, right?), then why did "they" let 18 people survive? Why did "they" take the risk that a resident of one of those "neighborhood bungalows" could have been a police officer or FBI agent? Did "they" know Veronia Kuculich and her daughter were expendable?

The following month E. Howard Hunt pleaded guilty to burglary and wiretapping and eventually served 33 months in prison. Hunt kept his silence although another member of the Watergate team, James W. McCord, wrote a letter to Judge John J. Sirica claiming that the defendants had pleaded guilty under pressure (from John Dean and John N. Mitchell) and that perjury had been committed.

The airplane crash was blamed on equipment malfunctions. Carl Oglesby (The Yankee and Cowboy War) has pointed out that the day after the crash, White House aide Egil Krogh was appointed Undersecretary of Transportation, supervising the National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Association - the two agencies charged with investigating the airline crash.

Mr. Oglesby forgot to contact Mr. Krogh to ask him about this loose association. If he has passed on, my reaction is, "Oops!" Somebody let thirty years go by in the blink of an eye.

A week later, Nixon's deputy assistant Alexander P. Butterfield was made the new head of the FAA, and five weeks later Dwight L. Chapin, the president's appointment secretary, become a top executive with United Airlines.

Several writers, including Robert J. Groden, Peter Dale Scott, Alan J. Weberman, Sherman Skolnick and Carl Oglesby, have suggested that Dorothy Hunt and Michelle Clark were murdered.

Skolnick's credentials are dubious. Oglesby belonged to a late 1960s radical anti - war group that advocated violence. That leaves three "writers." Has Groden, Scott or Weberman proved that "they" hit a plane, selectively killing two politically dangerous passengers, 41 useless eaters, sparing 18 productive citizens (hello, eugenicists!) and scraping a bunch of bungalows that could contain Chicago's Finest, FBI or CIA?

In 1974, Charles Colson, Howard Hunt's boss at the White House, told Time Magazine: "I think they killed Dorothy Hunt."

Please cite the date of that Time issue and the page number. Is he the same Charles Colson who refused to speak to this woman in October of 1972? First he snubs her, then two years later he admits she had a lot to say? Then he becomes a born-again Christian just a year later, admitting he had conspired with the president to obstruct justice? That's a crummy basis for saying "they" overpowered a plane 28 years before 9/11. Colson is well-known to be alive today, but researchers snub him just as he once snubbed Dorothy Hunt?

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Mr. Yarnell, I suppose you never heard of Martha Mitchell. In case you haven't, let me enlighten you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Mitchell_effect

That's right...the wife of the attorney general of the United States, Martha Mitchell had knowledge concerning the planning of the Watergate burglary, as well as the subsequent cover-up. [Evidently, John Mitchell must've brought some of his work home with him.] When Martha Mitchell threatened to go public with what she knew, her shrink--probably at the urging of her husband and his politically powerful friends--declared that she was insane.

Eventually, Martha Mitchell was vindicated when the Watergate story broke. But her case was another example of how far the Nixon people would go to try to slience their critics. I believe it was Colson--in his pre-"born again" days--who testified that he would have run over his own grandmother to achieve the political ends of his bosses.

In THAT context, then, it's NOT a stretch to believe that the downing of a plane--a plane which, by the way, carried NO people as closely related to Colson as his grandmother--would have been considered a justifiable risk, by persons of such a mindset.

[Gee, Tim...while the Democrats allegedly had ties to the KKK in the south and the Mob in the northeast, I don't recall any Democrats advocating "grandmatricide" to advance their political agenda...or, if they did, having anyone so proud of it that it was displayed as a badge of honor in their testimony anywhere. :o ]

Edited by Mark Knight
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Sherman Skolnick is not a reliable source... He has been confined to a wheelchair for many years.  That hampers his access to unpublished manuscripts and elderly people far away from his Chicago home. 

Are you suggesting that we should not take research seriously because it was carried out by a man confined to a wheelchair? You might have the use of your legs but you don’t seem to be using your brain very effectively.

It is true that Skolnick has had limited experience of investigating air crashes. That is why he relied so heavily on Rodney Stich, who for many years was an inspector-investigator for the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

Skolnick's credentials are dubious. Oglesby belonged to a late 1960s radical anti - war group that advocated violence. 

I see that you are of the Tim Gratz school of thought that someone on the left cannot be trusted to tell the truth. It is indeed going to be very difficult to discuss these issues with someone who is so clearly prejudiced against some sections of the community.

First, Mr. Skolnick asserted that Michelle Clark, the pioneering Black television anchorwoman, sat next to Dorothy Hunt on the United Airlines plane.  He provided no source.  How could Mr. Skolnick or anyone else know the identity of Ms. Hunt's seatmate?  We do know Michelle Clark was on the plane, and Mr. Skolnick evidently knows too little about American racism to investigate her as a potential target of a sinister conspiracy.

Skolnick does not say that. You obviously have not read his book Ahead of the Parade (2003). On page 47 he argues that Clark sat next to Congressman George Collins. He even gives his source for this information. It was a statement made by Collins’ public relations director on 14th June, 1973. I assume this information originally came from one of the eighteen passengers who survived the crash.

Nor does Skolnick argue that Dorothy Hunt was the only possible target. He points out: “Twelve of the people who boarded United Flight 553 had something in common relating to questionable Justice Department and Watergate activities.” This included Ralph Blodget, James W. Krueger, Lon Bayer, Wilber Erickson and Michelle Clark who was “doing an exclusive story on Watergate”.

You have obviously have not much time studying this subject. However, you are an expert on Dorothy Kilgallen. May I ask you again if the “Out-of-Towner” was Ron Pataky? If so, why did you not name him in your book on Kilgallen?

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Sherman Skolnick is not a reliable source... He has been confined to a wheelchair for many years.  That hampers his access to unpublished manuscripts and elderly people far away from his Chicago home. 

Are you suggesting that we should not take research seriously because it was carried out by a man confined to a wheelchair? You might have the use of your legs but you don’t seem to be using your brain very effectively.

Skolnick's credentials are dubious. Oglesby belonged to a late 1960s radical anti - war group that advocated violence. 

I see that you are of the Tim Gratz school of thought that someone on the left cannot be trusted to tell the truth. It is indeed going to be very difficult to discuss these issues with someone who is so clearly prejudiced against some sections of the community.

First, Mr. Skolnick asserted that Michelle Clark, the pioneering Black television anchorwoman, sat next to Dorothy Hunt on the United Airlines plane.  He provided no source.  How could Mr. Skolnick or anyone else know the identity of Ms. Hunt's seatmate?  We do know Michelle Clark was on the plane, and Mr. Skolnick evidently knows too little about American racism to investigate her as a potential target of a sinister conspiracy.

Skolnick does not say that. You obviously have not read his book Ahead of the Parade (2003). On page 47 he argues that Clark sat next to Congressman George Collins. He even gives his source for this information. It was a statement made by Collins’ public relations director on 14th June, 1973. I assume this information originally came from one of the eighteen passengers who survived the crash.

Nor does Skolnick argue that Dorothy Hunt was the only possible target. He points out: “Twelve of the people who boarded United Flight 553 had something in common relating to questionable Justice Department and Watergate activities.” This included Ralph Blodget, James W. Krueger, Lon Bayer, Wilber Erickson and Michelle Clark who was “doing an exclusive story on Watergate”.

You have obviously have not much time studying this subject. However, you are an expert on Dorothy Kilgallen. May I ask you again if the “Out-of-Towner” was Ron Pataky? If so, why did you not name him in your book on Kilgallen?

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.

Oglesby belonged to a late 1960s radical anti - war group that advocated violence.

In 1974, Charles Colson, Howard Hunt's boss at the White House, told Time Magazine: "I think they killed Dorothy Hunt."

Please cite the date of that Time issue and the page number.

________________________________

Carl Oglesgy was president of SDS in the mid 60's. When they split off into the Weathermen and advocated violence he LEFT this group, never to return. I have been a close friend of Carl's since 1973 and he has NEVER "advocated violence". This is just a lie to go along with your totally flawed logic.

Chuck Colson told Tme Mag. on 7/8/74:

"I don't say this to my people. They'd think I'm nuts. I think the CIA killed Dorothy Hunt".

As for Skolnick, when he first investigated this plane crash story in 73 he issued a very long report that was FULLY documented. He probably may still have this report and you can check his research as I did, now three decades ago.

But it's a whole lot easier to just say "his credentials are dubious".

Dawn

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Sherman Skolnick is not a reliable source... He has been confined to a wheelchair for many years.   That hampers his access to unpublished manuscripts and elderly people far away from his Chicago home.  

Are you suggesting that we should not take research seriously because it was carried out by a man confined to a wheelchair? You might have the use of your legs but you don’t seem to be using your brain very effectively.

Gerald Ford is my role model. But seriously, please see my new thread about Carlos Bringuier. It will make amends.

It is true that Skolnick has had limited experience of investigating air crashes. That is why he relied so heavily on Rodney Stich, who for many years was an inspector-investigator for the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

Skolnick's credentials are dubious. Oglesby belonged to a late 1960s radical anti - war group that advocated violence.  

I see that you are of the Tim Gratz school of thought that someone on the left cannot be trusted to tell the truth. It is indeed going to be very difficult to discuss these issues with someone who is so clearly prejudiced against some sections of the community.

First, Mr. Skolnick asserted that Michelle Clark, the pioneering Black television anchorwoman, sat next to Dorothy Hunt on the United Airlines plane.   He provided no source.  How could Mr. Skolnick or anyone else know the identity of Ms. Hunt's seatmate?  We do know Michelle Clark was on the plane, and Mr. Skolnick evidently knows too little about American racism to investigate her as a potential target of a sinister conspiracy.

Skolnick does not say that. You obviously have not read his book Ahead of the Parade (2003). On page 47 he argues that Clark sat next to Congressman George Collins. He even gives his source for this information. It was a statement made by Collins’ public relations director on 14th June, 1973. I assume this information originally came from one of the eighteen passengers who survived the crash.

Nor does Skolnick argue that Dorothy Hunt was the only possible target. He points out: “Twelve of the people who boarded United Flight 553 had something in common relating to questionable Justice Department and Watergate activities.” This included Ralph Blodget, James W. Krueger, Lon Bayer, Wilber Erickson and Michelle Clark who was “doing an exclusive story on Watergate”.

You have obviously have not much time studying this subject. However, you are an expert on Dorothy Kilgallen. May I ask you again if the “Out-of-Towner” was Ron Pataky? If so, why did you not name him in your book on Kilgallen?

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