JFK and Watergate

[Tim Gratz]

To David:

One source is Marty Underwood who told the Assassinations Record Review Board that Win Scott had told him that. But I am certain there was an earlier, much more contompraneous report that Scott had said that. The question is what was the basis for Scott's information? Was he being fed disinformation?

It is clear that Cubela and Kostikov met in Mexico City. Larry has posted a statement that he has information that the meeting was as early as 1961. If there were no meetings in 1963 then perhaps--perhaps-the meeting had nothing to do with the assassination. 1961 was, however, when Cubela first approached the CIA.

I reread part of "The Very Best Men" today, and hear is what it says: After the assassination, when the CIA realized the potential significance of the alleged meeting between Oswald and Kostikov, the Counterintelligence Section of the CIA tried to find out who else Kostikov had met with and the name Cubela popped up. Apparently Counterintelligence did not know who Cubela was so it put out internal inquiries within the CIA re whether anyone had had dealings with the CIA. And Fitzgerald failed to disclose the ongoing Cubela operation in response to those theories.

It would be interesting to verify whether Cubela met with Kostilov in the summer or fall of 1963 when the Cubela assassination plot was being hatched. If so, the potential implications are more sinister than if there was only one or two meetings in 1961.

I was not aware that Cubela met with Phillips in Mexico City. I understand that after he was back in Cuba in 1965 or 1966 Cubela claimed he had met with David Morales in Paris.

[David Boylan]

Tim,

Here's something that appears on McAdams site attributed to Vince Palmera:

Advance man Marty Underwood (worked on the planning of JFK's Texas tour - specifically, his proposed stops at Houston and Austin):

In an exclusive interview conducted on 10/9/92, the author obtained the following new information [similar in content to what Underwood told "Evening Magazine" on 11/22/88, his only tv appearance]:

- Underwood became "an honorary Secret Service agent" and served under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. While with LBJ, he became the "aide in charge of the Secret Service." The advance man confirmed to this author that JFK did not restrict agents from riding on the Presidential limousine. Underwood told Harrison Livingstone: "There were so many things that fell through in Dallas. Any advance man who had any sense at all would never have taken him down that route." When Livingstone commented that the route was changed, Underwood added: "Yeah, I know. You don't take a guy down a route like that." (High Treason 2, by Harry Livingstone, page 442)

- FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had a file on Underwood and, according to the advance man, Hoover hid the Lee Harvey Oswald file from the Secret Service;

- Underwood stated that the CIA, the FBI, and the mafia "knew [JFK] was going to be hit" on 11/22/63 - this information came from his direct contacts with CIA officer Win Scott, the Mexico City Station Chief during Oswald's visit to that region! In addition, Underwood stated that, eighteen hours before Kennedy's murder, "we were getting all sorts of rumors that the President was going to be assassinated in Dallas; there were no if's, and's, or but's about it." When Underwood told JFK about these disturbing reports, the President merely said, "Marty, you worry about me too much" (indeed, JFK told San Antonio Congressman Henry Gonzalez on 11/21/63: "The Secret Service told me that they have taken care of everything. There's nothing to worry about").

The reason why Underwood opened up to me is best expressed by him: "Everyone who had anything to do with Dallas in any way -- Kenny O'Donnell, the Secret Service -- they're practically all dead now. I just think people should know the truth."

From ARRB's Final Report, pages 135-136 (see also p.112; as with Floyd Boring, I alerted the ARRB's Tom Samoluk in early 1996 to Underwood, even sending him Underwood's only tv appearance on video, "Evening Magazine" dated 11/22/88 mentioned above]:

"Martin Underwood, a former advance man for Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, was a member of President Kennedy's advance team in Texas in November 1963. A researcher [Gus Russo] who worked with Seymour Hersh on his book, The Dark Side of Camelot, told the Review Board that Underwood claimed that President Johnson sent Underwood to Mexico City in 1966 or 1967 to see what he could learn about the Kennedy assassination. Underwood allegedly met with Win Scott, former CIA Chief of Station in Mexico City.

The researcher provided the Review Board with copies of handwritten notes, on White House stationery, ostensibly prepared by Underwood and documenting his meeting with Scott. The notes state that Scott told Underwood that the CIA "blew it" in Dallas in November 1963. On the morning of November 22, the agency knew that a plane had arrived in Mexico City from Havana, and that one passenger got off the plane and boarded another one headed for Dallas. Underwood's notes state that Scott said that CIA identified the passenger as Fabian Escalante.

The researcher also stated that someone instructed Underwood to follow Judith Campbell Exner on her 1960 train trip from Washington, D.C., to Chicago, during which she was alleged to have carried money between Senator Kennedy (the Democratic Party nominee) and organized crime boss Sam Giancana.

The Review Board staff informally interviewed Underwood. Underwood confirmed that he traveled to Mexico City in 1966, but said that he went to advance President Johnson's trip and not to look into circumstances surrounding President Kennedy's assassination. While in Mexico City, Underwood met with Scott concerning the details of President Johnson's trip. During Underwood's meeting with Scott, he said they did discuss President Kennedy's assassination and that Scott told him the story that the researcher relayed to the Review Board.

When Review Board staff asked Underwood about any notes he may have taken, he initially claimed to have no memory of any notes. Upon viewing copies of the notes that the researcher provided to the Review Board, Underwood said that he had written the notes in 1992 or 1993 for a researcher to use for Hersh's book. Underwood explained that the notes are on White House stationery because he has a lot of extra White House stationery left over from his work with President Johnson.

Underwood could not remember whether he had contemporaneous notes from his meeting with Scott. He also denied that he followed Judith Campbell Exner on a train and that he had no knowledge about her alleged role as a courier.

After the informal interview, Underwood forwarded to the Review Board a set of typed notes from his 1966 trip to Mexico City and his meeting with Scott. The typed notes documented Underwood's activities in Mexico City and briefly mentioned his meeting with Scott. The notes do not mention Underwood's conversation with Scott about the Kennedy assassination. Instead, the notes state that Underwood sought Scott's assistance in staging a big welcome for President Johnson. The Review Board subsequently requested Underwood to testify under oath, but due to health problems, he was not available. Underwood's notes now are part of the JFK Collection."

To David:

One source is Marty Underwood who told the Assassinations Record Review Board that Win Scott had told him that.  But I am certain there was an earlier, much more contompraneous report that Scott had said that.  The question is what was the basis for Scott's information?  Was he being fed disinformation?

It is clear that Cubela and Kostikov met in Mexico City.  Larry has posted a statement that he has information that the meeting was as early as 1961.  If there were no meetings in 1963 then perhaps--perhaps-the meeting had nothing to do with the assassination.  1961 was, however, when Cubela first approached the CIA.

I reread part of "The Very Best Men" today, and hear is what it says:  After the assassination, when the CIA realized the potential significance of the alleged meeting between Oswald and Kostikov, the Counterintelligence Section of the CIA tried to find out who else Kostikov had met with and the name Cubela popped up.  Apparently Counterintelligence did not know who Cubela was so it put out internal inquiries within the CIA re whether anyone had had dealings with the CIA.  And Fitzgerald failed to disclose the ongoing Cubela operation in response to those theories.

It would be interesting to verify whether Cubela met with Kostilov in the summer or fall of 1963 when the Cubela assassination plot was being hatched.  If so, the potential implications are more sinister than if there was only one or two meetings in 1961.

I was not aware that Cubela met with Phillips in Mexico City.  I understand that after he was back in Cuba in 1965 or 1966 Cubela claimed he had met with David Morales in Paris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Pat Speer]

So the Escalante did it theory is based upon the the thirty year old memories by someone of what Win Scott told him 3 years after the assassination. Not exactly evidence, particularly as virtually every single thing Win Scott remembered about Oswald has been discredited or disproven by the CIA itself. And who was Escalante in 66???? Nobody. There is no way without notes Underwood would have remembered the name of the Cuban. Underwood has simply inserted Escalante's name for another man's name. While there were undoubtedly a few Cubans making a run back to Havana before they could be blamed or set up as associates of Oswald, there is no reason to believe Escalante was one of them. Was he even in the game in 63? Maybe Tim should contact him and ask him what he was doing on November 22nd. I'm sure he'll give an honest reply.

[Tim Gratz]

I understand the potential weaknesses in Underwood's statement but I am sure I read from a different source that Scott made the allegation in 1963 or 1964.

Pat forgets that I do not trust any statements from Communists or mafioso members. Pat, are you suggesting that IF Escalante did it, he would be honest and admit it? I will grant you that if Escalante did not do it he would (presumably)honestly say where he was.

Forget about his communism. Do you think that ANY real conspirator still alive (and not in jail) would honestly admit to it? Most murders, I suspect, are not honest people. Absent unusual circumstances, I doubt we can crack this case by sending out questionnaires to 1,000 suspects and expecting one of more assassins will confess!!

[Pat Speer]

Tim, I'm joking about talking to Escalante. I do think your disbelieving people just because they are communists is a bit short-sighted, as they are obviously honest enough to admit they are communists. In my book, it's the secret fascists you have to look out for.

That said, I've read Escalante's book on the secret war, ZR/Rifle, and the transcripts of some of the meetings between Escalante and researchers, and I must admit I'm skeptical about much of what he says. While I suspect exile involvement in the killing, I by no means consider Escalante's word any more reliable than Hemming's, or Hall's, or Sturgis', or Lorenz's, or Hunt's. These people were involved in a giant game and the truth became immaterial to them at some point.

[Pat Speer]

oops double post

Edited June 2, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, I would certainly agree with you that "secret fascists" of "secret communists" for that matter are more dangerous than those who openly declare their allegiance to such a totalitarian system. And you are correct that there were many groups both left and right in this period whose adherence to their political agendas far exceeded their abiding by truth-telling.

So I don't think we disagree on much here.

This will surprise many of you but Gerry Hemming tells me he retains respect for Che Gueverra because he believed Gueverra was always a truth-teller.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Tim Gratz