Why not Paris?

[Ron Ecker]

If Oswald and Walker did in fact meet, even for just a moment in time, the whole assassination story begins to take a different form than what has been seen in past reviews.

Jim,

This passage from Russell's The Man Who Knew Too Much (1st ed), p. 317, will interest you if you haven't already read it:

"According to all official versions, including Walker's, the ex-general had never heard of Oswald until the day of the assassination. Yet in 1992, John Curington, H.L. Hunt's chief staff assistant during that period, told me a different version. Curington said he himself 'had run across Oswald before the assassination. He was sort of known in certain circles as being an extremist, very vocal about certain issues, and his name had just come up in conversation or some of our reviews.'

"I pressed Curington to be more specific. 'Well,' he added, 'General Walker was a pretty good friend of Mr. Hunt's and we visited in his home. Walker told us one night that Oswald's name had come up in an investigation of the sniping there against him. I don't remember just when, but this was before the assassination.'"

Ron

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ron and Jim

"I pressed Curington to be more specific. 'Well,' he added, 'General Walker was a pretty good friend of Mr. Hunt's and we visited in his home. Walker told us one night that Oswald's name had come up in an investigation of the sniping there against him. I don't remember just when, but this was before the assassination.'"

Ron

Ron, Curington may be a victim of Missatribution, one of Daniel Schacter's Seven Sins of Memory, which is the cause of the sensation known as deja vu. He may be transposing the timing of a real event that happened months or years after the assassination. On the other hand, perhaps we should heed Dick Russel's caution that Curington is a disgruntled former employee who carries a grudge because Hunt accused him and Rothermel of embezzeling millions of dollars.(for details, see Texas Rich by Harry Hurt III)

Jim, since you have disclosed the reasons for your interest in Lee Oswald's European odyssey, let me reciprocate by saying that, in my current state of ignorance, I consider that all accusations against him remain unproven, including accusations that he was a spy for either KGB or CIA.

According to Oleg Nechiporenko (Passport to Assassination P.26,) all tourists at that time were required to purchase a travel package through a travel agency. I suggest that Lee could have inquired at his hotel in Helsinki (or phoned the Soviet embassy) about how to obtain a Soviet tourist visa and the knowledgable and efficient hotel staff referred him to a travel agent known to have such experience.

"The government has also said that there was no other embassy that could have issued Oswald a passport (here you meant VISA) in the same quick manner"

I'm not sure that the (U.S.) govenment has gone that far (and more importantly I don't believe the Soviets ever said so). Golub may have stated that Moscow had given him the power to issue visas, but I do not see where he stated or even implied that this was a special privilege bestowed on him alone. Helms may have encouraged the inference that Helsinki was a unique case, but Helms was encouraging the theory that Lee was an agent of KGB, and the Helsinki visa was Exhibit A in his indictment.

Lee Oswald set out for Moscow immediately following Khrushchev's 10 -day visit to the US in September 1959. Khruschev's visit was major news, and President Eisenhower accepted an invitation to visit Russia in 1960. No doubt Lee was among the two-thirds of Americans who warmly welcomed Chairman K. (See August 1959 opinion polls below). Kruschev's 10-day visit had no precedent and represented the first thaw in the cold war. It was airbrushed out of popular memory when the U2 incident scuppered Ike's plan to visit Russia in 1960.

I have not done a real study of contemporaneous news accounts, but I believe "cultural exchange" was in the air and something Chairman K advocated as he travelled around the US and in his summit with President Eisenhower. Khrushchev made it official policy to encourage tourism into the USSR, so in that context it is not surprising that embassies (including Helsinki) had power to issue short-stay tourist visas with a minimum of red tape. Anyway, the Soviets had plan B - every tourist would be monitored by the Intourist agency.

As for Lee's choice of London over Paris, I don't see anything unusual about this. Americans often launch their European tours from London because the language there uses many familiar words (once you get past the funny pronunciation). Besides, I bet that if you asked any experienced traveller in 1959, he would tell you that no European city offered a greater choice of destinations for the traveller than London airport did in 1959.

Jim, I will make you a promise. When you reveal the tantalizing information alluded to at the beginning of this thread, I will reveal an amazing secret: How Lee Oswald financed his European travels.

PUBLIC OPINION AUGUST 1959

5. As you may have heard, there has been some talk recently about U.S.

and

Soviet leaders visiting each others' countries. Do you happen to know

if Premier

Khrushchev has recently accepted any invitation to visit the United

States?

Yes, he has - 75% No, he hasn't - 3 Don't

know - 22,

Public Opinion Online, 58 words, RUSSIA, DIPLOMACY, INFORMATION, August

20,

1959, GALLUP POLL--A.I.P.O.

6. As you may know, Premier Khrushchev is visiting the U.S. around

September 15

(1959) and President Eisenhower will visit the U.S.S.R. shortly after.

All

things considered, do you approve or disapprove of Khrushchev's visit

to the

U.S.? Approve - 66% Disapprove - 20 Don't

know - 14,

Public Opinion Online, 58 words, RUSSIA, DIPLOMACY, August 20, 1959,

GALLUP

POLL--A.I.P.O.

7. Does the U.S. agreement to the exchange of visits (between

Eisenhower and

Khrushchev), in your opinion, mean that there has been a softening in

basic U.S.

attitudes toward communism, or do you interpret it as mainly a new

effort to

reduce tensions? Softening in attitudes - 8% Reduce

tensions

- 76 Don't know - 17, Public Opinion

Online, 69

words, RUSSIA, DIPLOMACY, COMMUNISM, August 20, 1959, GALLUP

POLL--A.I.P.O.

8. How much progress do you think such an exchange of visits (between

Eisenhower

and Khrushchev) is likely to make toward easing cold-war tensions--a

great deal,

some, only a little, or none at all? Great deal - 13%

Some

- 36 Only a little - 24 None at all - 13

Don't

know - 15, Public Opinion Online, 66 words, RUSSIA, DIPLOMACY,

August 20,

1959, GALLUP POLL--A.I.P.O.

Weberman's page: Angleton Dispatches Teenager to Moscow.

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule2.htm

Ray

"Do not block the way of inquiry" C. S. Peirce

[Ron Ecker]

These threads do tend to wander into different areas!  But I don't think I moved anything; don't think I have the ability, for instance, to move someone else's post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

You didn’t move my post. Your reply to my Post #57 in the "JFK and Watergate" thread appeared in this thread here, as Post #12. I replied to your post here before realizing it was in the wrong thread, so I deleted the text of my post here and reposted there, leaving your post here where it doesn’t belong, since I couldn’t move it. Is that perfectly clear?

Ron

[Ron Ecker]

"I pressed Curington to be more specific. 'Well,' he added, 'General Walker was a pretty good friend of Mr. Hunt's and we visited in his home. Walker told us one night that Oswald's name had come up in an investigation of the sniping there against him. I don't remember just when, but this was before the assassination.'"

Ron

Ron, Curington may be a victim of Missatribution, one of Daniel Schacter's Seven Sins of Memory, which is the cause of the sensation known as deja vu. He may be transposing the timing of a real event that happened months or years after the assassination. On the other hand, perhaps we should heed Dick Russel's caution that Curington is a disgruntled former employee who carries a grudge because Hunt accused him and Rothermel of embezzeling millions of dollars.(for details, see Texas Rich by Harry Hurt III)

Raymond,

Thanks for that info. I must say that in any case I strongly suspect that Walker knew of Oswald, whether or not he had ever met him, before the assassination. I say that based on my theory (which I'm sure is not original) of why Oswald allegedly took a shot at Walker. This attempt on Walker was staged so that Walker could say after the assassination, "Hey, how could I have anything to do with Oswald and the shooting of the President? Oswald was trying to get me too!"

Ron

[J. Raymond Carroll]

. I say that based on my theory (which I'm sure is not original) of why Oswald allegedly took a shot at Walker.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron, that theory seems to presuppose that it was Lee Oswald who took a shot at

Walker. Of all the many wild and specious accusations against Lee, I say that this one takes the biscuit.

Your theory might be consistent with a plan to frame an innocent man, but if Walker was involved, he was extremely stupid to put his own head "in the frame".

It's my suspicion that we will find the real killers by studying those who tried to make themselves invisible, and Walker does not fit that definition.

[Ron Ecker]

I doubt that Oswald himself shot at Walker or pretended to. Anyone could have fired the shot into Walker's window, and Walker could have been nowhere around. Did anyone see the shooter? As I recall, someone saw a car speed away. Did anyone see Walker sitting where he allegedly sat as a bullet whizzed by? That is, anyone besides a crony who may have been with him? Walker could have been on the other side of the house, safely out of harm's way.

Ron

[Tim Gratz]

Ron wrote:

Is that perfectly clear?

Yes, Ron, sorry.

Funny you used a phrase {"let me make this perfectly clear"] that seems inexorably tied to RN. As much as "expletive deleted". I think there were others as well. It would be interesting to think of phrases tied to other presidents but it would digress the more important topic.

It seems a funny phrase. I guess it is the same as "clear"; something is either "less than clear" or "perfectly clear". But why the adjective then?

But you were PERFECTLY clear!!

[Antti Hynonen]

Considering the conversation related to Oswald's choice concerning the mode of transportation and his route choices, I would guess that some or all of the following contributed to his choice:

* His goal was Moscow and/or the Soviet Union.

* He decided to fly, because he needed to be in Helsinki at a certain time (quickly). To meet with someone?

* He went via London, because he didn't know better, or had to go via London in order to meet someone there. He surely didn't spend enough time there so one could consider his trip a tourist trip.

* He was probably told by someone what route to take and where to pick up information on how to continue his trip.

* He spent about 230 dollars on a 5000 mile sea trip (New Orleans, LA, USA to LeHavre, France) and then about 109 dollars to travel about 1200 miles from London to Helsinki. Not to mention the fact that the first leg took him several weeks and for the second to the last bit he seemed to be in a hurry. Why the sudden hurry and spending money on an expensive flight?

* Lee also stayed at relatively expensive hotels in Helsinki, and then spent almost all of his remaining cash on the tourist coupons for the Soviet Union and on a train ticket to Moscow. Just like he didn't mind running out of money.... Who was going to help him financially after that????

Edited May 30, 2005 by Antti Hynonen

[John Geraghty]

Sometimes the most simple explanations are the correct ones,

Oswald didnt speak French, that would be a determining factor.

By getting to london it would be easier for him to get to Russia as there would be no language barrier.

John

[J. Raymond Carroll]

* He spent about 230 dollars on a 5000 mile sea trip (New Orleans, LA, USA to LeHavre, France) and then about 109 dollars to travel about 1200 miles from London to Helsinki. Not to mention the fact that the first leg took him several weeks and for the second to the last bit he seemed to be in a hurry. Why the sudden hurry and spending money on an expensive flight?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Antti, Do you know if he could have taken a train from Calais to Helsinki? If so, how long would it take and how much cheaper would it be than the $109 airfare?

Ray

[Jim Root]

Ron

"I doubt that Oswald himself shot at Walker or pretended to. Anyone could have fired the shot into Walker's window, and Walker could have been nowhere around. Did anyone see the shooter? As I recall, someone saw a car speed away. Did anyone see Walker sitting where he allegedly sat as a bullet whizzed by? That is, anyone besides a crony who may have been with him? Walker could have been on the other side of the house, safely out of harm's way." Ron

This is my problem and has been for over a decade. If Oswald did not shoot at Walker all of the research that I have done can be dismissed as coincidence. From Walker's relationship to military intelligence, to his association with Max Taylor, to his passive aquatance with a John Hurt (B. of course), to his Pro Blue Program that is timed to Oswald's return to the US, to his travel in Europe that overlaps Oswald's defection and to Oswald being accused of shooting at Walker.

For myself, the fact remains that Oswald's trip to Russia was at best "under" investigated. Here we are, over fourty years later, when the case should be very cold and two amatures can discover "new" evidence concerning this trip. The fact remains that Oswald could have gone to Paris and then been on the exact same airplane that he did in fact arrive in Helsinki on.

What has led to this "new" information? Following the possibility that Oswald did, as he told both George de Mohrenschildt and his wife, shoot at Walker.

Jim Root

[Jim Root]

Ray

"Do you know if he could have taken a train from Calais to Helsinki? If so, how long would it take and how much cheaper would it be than the $109 airfare?" Ray

Wouldn't that require that he enter Russia along the way?

What we do factually know is that Oswald's passport is stramped October 10, 1959 when he leaves London Airport and is stamped October 10, 1959 when he arrives in Helsinki, Finland. What are our question then? What possible routes did he take from London to Helsinki on October 10th? For myself, could Oswald have encountered Edwin Walker along the way?

Jim Root

[J. Raymond Carroll]

What has led to this "new" information?  Following the possibility that Oswald did, as he told both George de Mohrenschildt and his wife, shoot at Walker.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim, My memory is not the greatest. When did De Morenschildt say that Lee admitted having fired at Walker?

Ray

[Ron Ecker]

If Oswald did not shoot at Walker all of the research that I have done can be dismissed as coincidence.

Jim,

Why do you say that? Why did it have to be Oswald who fired the shot, as long as he got blamed for it later? Would Oswald even know why Walker was fired at? It's not clear to me from your research why it had to be Oswald firing at Walker, and what Oswald's motive would be.

Ron

[Jim Root]

Ray

"My memory is not the greatest. When did De Morenschildt say that Lee admitted having fired at Walker?" Ray

Around April 5th, five days before the attempt on the life of Walker, Oswald gave De Morenschildt a copy of the famous backlyard photograph and inscribed upon it, I believe, "Hunter of Facisist." Following the attempt we have De Morenschildt asking, I believe, "How did you miss?" We have conversations and suspicions which bracket the event. The exact words used will never be known now because both men are dead.

We do have a picture that could be used as evidence of premeditation and the person that was in possession of that picture comming to a logical conclusion of the guilt of Oswald.

Jim Root