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Oswald intended escape


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Greg Parker has on another thread alluded to the possibility of Oswald being flown to Cuba after the assassination to link it with Castro.

I think this is quite plausible, it really ties in. Oswald goes to Cuban embassy to get visa for later date, he gives Marina what money he has as he knows that he will be going away.

I theorize that Oswald did not know about the assassination and was told that he was going to Cuba on the day in question. After the assassination he becomes suspicious and misses his appointment at the airport.

It is possible that one group involved in plotting the assassination wanted the assassination linked to castro and another group didnt, and so Oswald was given over to the police in the Texas Theatre so that the preplanned trip to Cuba would not go ahead and so stop the link between oswald and Castro.

I wonder who was to fly Oswald to Cuba..........Ferrie?

Any speculation to this theory?

John

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I theorize that Oswald did not know about the assassination and was told that he was going to Cuba on the day in question. After the assassination he becomes suspicious and misses his appointment at the airport.

Wouldn't the conspirators know that Oswald might get suspicious and not show up, after the president was assassinated at Oswald's work place? I think they would have planned a surer way to get Oswald to the airport if that's what they had to do. (What I would have done is get ahold of a Rambler and pick up Oswald in front of his work place. No, wait, that would mean having to arrange for the DPD to reopen traffic on Elm right after the assassination, which would look pretty stupid.)

I wonder who was to fly Oswald to Cuba..........Ferrie?

What was supposed to happen when Oswald got to Cuba? If he was going to "disappear," how was it to be proven he had gone there? Was he to be portrayed as the guy who was the lone passenger on that airliner out of Mexico City? And did they then plan to call Castro a xxxx when he would announce he had nothing to do with Oswald and knew nothing about him? It would certainly have been interesting if Oswald hadn't been nabbed by the DPD.

Ron

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I have always believed Oswald thought he was flying out of the country, his movements in the theater are very suspect, going from one seat to another, sitting next to people. I think Oswald was looking for his contact inside the theater, then he knew once his contact wasnt there he knew without a doubt he was set up.

His reaction when the DPD showed up was that of a desperate man, he could have been going to Mexico or Cuba, who nows for sure, but IMHO he thought he was flying out of there.

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Ryan, I agree that Oswald appeared to be searching for his "contact" in the theater. But from the evidence I've seen, I can't conclude that he thought he was to be flying anywhere. He may have thought he was going to travel by car--according to the radio broadcasts on 11/22, it was the MEXICAN authorities that closed the border, NOT US or Texas officials, and that was 3 hours or more after the assassination--or by bus or by train. But there's just no evidence I've seen that would cause me to conclude that Oswald thought he was going to FLY out of Texas. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but I'm still seeking evidence.

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If Oswald thought he was leaving the country, it seems like he would have taken at least a toothbrush, maybe even a small travel bag, instead of a pistol.

On the other hand, maybe he did think he would be flying south of the border. I can't think of any other reason why he would throw away his jacket in somebody's yard on the way to the movies. Who needs a jacket in Cuba?

Ron

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The people who were using Oswald had been feeding him a line about

helping him get into Cuba for some time. The most recent line was that

he would be leaving Dallas during the President's visit....with help. Given

the amount of money he had with him on Nov. 22 its seems obvious

that he was expecting help with the travel (it also seems pretty obvious

that he didn't have any real "escape" plan in mind after shooting the

President - even the Commission staff had to fall back on speculating

he planned to escape across the border by bus - amazingly lame but

it was the best they could do with the facts in hand).

It's likely that Oswald was told there would be some incident to divert

surveillance on him. Clearly his actions demonstrate he felt he was

under surveillance and Hosty disclosed that before he realized the way

the story was going to play out. To what extent Oswald might have

been involved in such an incident is certainly speculation. However its

also clear that he was not expecting the President to actually be shot

much less clear and that really through him off his stride. Being dropped

off away from his apartment so he could check what was going on there

reflects that, as does picking up the revolver.

Martino says he was instructed to meet his contact in the Theatre - and its

very possible that Oswald literally ended up with no other choice than to follow that plan as best he could play it. However without the Tippett incident it might still have worked given that DPD seems to have done virtually nothing to impede travel out of Dallas (by light plane or even bus for that matter). Not that Oswald would have lived through the trip in any event...

-- Larry

on the plan.

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Martino says he was instructed to meet his contact in the Theatre - and its

very possible that Oswald literally ended up with no other choice than to follow that plan as best he could play it. However without the Tippett incident it might still have worked given that DPD seems to have done virtually nothing to impede travel out of Dallas (by light plane or even bus for that matter). Not that Oswald would have lived through the trip in any event... (Larry Hancock)

Good stuff, Larry.

It seems to me that the only reason for Oswald to go to the Theatre would be to meet someone. One could then speculate this individual might have been assigned to help Oswald get out of the country, possibly with the help of J. D. Tippit who was operating on a 'need to know' that day.

If this alleged individual (Oswald's contact) for example was arrested in Dealey Plaza just after the shooting then we have a patsy on the loose and a frantic cop wondering why his pick-up is not where he is supposed to be effectively sealing the fate of this poor unfortunate.

The following comes from the Roy Hargraves interview....

NHT: We didn’t get finished with that John Martino [story]...The good looking guy on the couch. And I said that his wife said that the good looking young kid sitting on the sofa was involved in it. And you said, “that’s not nice.” and then the tape ran out or something. But I asked Gerry, who do you think that good looking kid was? And he hesitated and then said’ “Ponce De Leon.”

I am wondering if this comment has anything to do with Ronald Ponce DeLeon being the one who was supposed to meet Oswald at the Theatre?

Just thinking aloud.

James

Edited by James Richards
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At the risk of bringing up old news (except this point doesn't get nearly enough attention) I'll also point out again that a box full of documents - including motel and telephone records as well as other hard evidence - was turned into the DPD a few weeks after the assassination. Several officers swore to having seen the material and said that it definitely implicated Oswald as being part of a conspiracy and associated him with Ruby. The materal was even acknowledged by the DA who was prosecuting Ruby, however he said it had no bearing on his case so it was of no use to him. That material has never been seen again.

My speculation is that material included items which would have been planted with Oswald as part of the Cuba/Castro frame but that the plotters didn't get a chance to use it as planned - just one more futile effort to pitch the planned frame after the fact. The Alvarado incident (with Phillips endorsement) was another attempt to recover the frame.

Interestingly Jim Hosty swears to this day he was told that Oswald was actually issued a Cuban visa.....its unlikely that Cuba did that but a fake visa may have been put into circulation to generate the story Hosty heard. You can bet if the plot had worked and this sort of material had been found with a dead Oswald - apparently trying to escape in the direction of Cuba - that there would have been a declaration of war in about the same time it took to vote it through after Pearl Harbor.

-- Larry

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Many people on this Forum apparently believe in the alteration of JFK's wounds, the control of the autopsy, false autopsy photos, planting of false leads prior to the assassination, the use of an Oswald impersonator, the use of sophisticated silencer-equipped weapons, etc. etc. all suggesting a rather sophisticated conspiracy--and yet the plot to link Oswald to Cuba just inexplicably fell apart, and the entire object of killing Kennedy (at the risk of capital punishment) failed at the very get-go.

A masterful conspiracy that failed in its most important objective: framing Castro and and stimulating an invasion of Cuba.

A plot that caused the invasion that the Kennedys were planning (more on this later) to be canceled. So the whole assassination backfired. Most have been pretty unhappy conspirators. Morales must have kicked himself clear round the block.

Am I dense, or is there something about this that just does not make any sense whatsoever?

It makes more sense to me that the conspirators had a different objective in mind; that they intended Oswald to be shot and killed during the capture (perhaps by Tippitt); that they knew Oswald was working for US intelligence (as Larry suggests in his book) and so they knew that Washington would not want the assassination fully investigated. One possibility is that Castro (or pro-Castro Cubans) were involved. If so, their motive succeeded.

A second would be that it was a mob hit the motive was to stop RFK's prosecution of the mob. If so, the mob's motive also succeeded.

I just do not understand a masterful conspiracy and cover-up which did not even get to first base in accomplishing its objective. If that is what happened the conspirators were not evil geniuses-- they were evil idiots.

I would appreciate your comments.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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This possibility of Oswald either planning to leave the U.S. after the assassination,

or his handlers permitting him to believe this would be the case is discussed in

Mark North's book, "Act Of Treason."

North writes;

"Wayne January.....ran a plane rental business at Red Bird Airport (near Dallas)....

two days before the assassination he was approached by two men and a woman, who inquired about renting an aircraft on Friday, November 22, to go to Mexico. He did not like the look of them and did not rent them a plane. After the assassination, when he saw Oswald on television, he thought he strongly resembled one of the men who had been at the airport. He gave this information to the FBI. Could this be the real Oswald, being duped into thinking that as a result of his cooperation in the coming protest he will be given passage to Cuba or Mexico? Or is it the contract people simply arranging for the look-alike exit?"

(p. 369)

I tend to believe this was an impostor Oswald setting up the patsy with yet another siting which could be argued as the would be assassin planning his escape

after the assassination. My reason for believing this and not the real Oswald being at Red Bird is the thought that, would Oswald actually leave his wife and children in return for taking part in a protest in Dealey Plaza? It doesn't make

sense to me.

Bill Cheslock

Edited by Bill Cheslock
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I do not like speculation but here goes:

A man approaches Oswald (maybe he is a Castro agent; maybe he is a Mafioso; maybe he is a Texas oli baron concerning about his tax liability--we need not decide who the big fish is). The man knows Oswald is working for US intelligence.

The man tells Oswald he is Mr Smith of the CIA. The man tells Oswald he is going to be given a most important mission. The man tells Oswald there are still nuclear missiles in Cuba and their presence may result in a calamitous war. The man tells Oswald he is to be used in a plot to force JFK to invade Cuba and get rid of Castro. The man tells Oswald his role is to smuggle a rifle into the Texas School Book Depository for a fake ATTEMPT to kill JFK, to be blamed on Oswald and justify the invasion of Cuba. The man tells Oswald he will have to flee the country but in a few years he can come back as the hero who saved the world.

The man tells Oswald only a few people know the plan and he should discuss it with no one, not even whoever is now "controlling him".

When Oswald hears from Truly and Baker that JFK has been KILLED he knows something is wrong. Either the plot was far more serious than told to him or it was a set-up or anything. He immediately suspects that whatever is going on he is dispendable. So he attempts to flee.

Granted it is speculation but it COULD fit regardless of who was really behind the assassination. What do you think?

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Tim, the plot as expressed to the participants (and to the extent that it was even communicated) was to killl JFK and frame Castro, resulting in his overthrow by the U.S.. in retaliation. The people involved in the tactical side of the plot belived this and were disappointed when Oswald's capture and the Lone Nut cover-up preempted a response against Cuba. Now whether the folks at the top of the food chain were totally upset about that or whether they had put a fix in with LBJ before hand is open to speculation. You can bet that the exiles involved were very unhappy. And I have outlined ongoing attempts over the next 60 days to try to pin the blame on Castro even in the face of the cover-up.

The cover-up was completely separate from the conspiracy and was conducted in order to avoid a conflict with the Russians.....and justified based on some of the immediate evidence that suggest contact by Oswald with the Russians and Cubans as well as by many of the indications that Oswald himself had contacts with lots of suspicious people and was in no way a "lone nut". The cover-up was single handedly driven by LBJ even though certain individuals did not agree with it. Johnson's motives can be questioned but the results are pretty clear - and it was not a pretty cover-up, it was iterative and reactive and left loose ends all over the place. And in the years afterwards, many of those involved (like Admiral Burkley)

even tested the waters to see if they could tell the real truth....only to quickly discern (as with Bowers earlier and Odio later) that nobody in authority really wanted to deal with it.

The tactical ambush on the President was masterful, the plot to frame Oswald was pretty darn good but fell apart with Tippett's killing and Oswald's capture. The use of Ruby to eliminate Oswald was pure desparation and disclosed links the WC had to work very hard to avoid (so hard they refused to support or listen to their two field men in Dallas investigating Ruby).

The cover-up...well I already described that.

You can choose to belive this scenario or not of course, but hopefully this at least spells it out clearly.

-- Larry

Many people on this Forum apparently believe in the alteration of JFK's wounds, the control of the autopsy, false autopsy photos, planting of false leads prior to the assassination, the use of an Oswald impersonator, the use of sophisticated silencer-equipped weapons, etc. etc. all suggesting a rather sophisticated conspiracy--and yet the plot to link Oswald to Cuba just inexplicably fell apart, and the entire object of killing Kennedy (at the risk of capital punishment) failed at the very get-go.

A masterful conspiracy that failed in its most important objective: framing Castro and and stimulating an invasion of Cuba.

A plot that caused the invasion that the Kennedys were planning (more on this later) to be canceled.  So the whole assassination backfired.  Most have been pretty unhappy conspirators.  Morales must have kicked himself clear round the block.

Am I dense, or is there something about this that just does not make any sense whatsoever?

It makes more sense to me that the conspirators had a different objective in mind; that they intended Oswald to be shot and killed during the capture (perhaps by Tippitt); that they knew Oswald was working for US intelligence (as Larry suggests in his book) and so they knew that Washington would not want the assassination fully investigated.  One possibility is that Castro (or pro-Castro Cubans) were involved.  If so, their motive succeeded.

A second would be that it was a mob hit the motive was to stop RFK's prosecution of the mob.  If so, the mob's motive also succeeded.

I just do not understand a masterful conspiracy and cover-up which did not even get to first base in accomplishing its objective.  If that is what happened the conspirators were not evil geniuses-- they were evil idiots.

I would appreciate your comments.

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At the risk of bringing up old news (except this point doesn't get nearly enough attention) I'll also point out again that a box full of documents - including motel and telephone records as well as other hard evidence - was turned into the DPD a few weeks after the assassination.  Several officers swore to having seen the material and said that it definitely implicated Oswald as being part of a conspiracy and associated him with Ruby.  The materal was even acknowledged by the DA who was prosecuting Ruby,  however he said it had no bearing on his case so it was of no use to him.  That material has never been seen again.

My speculation is that material included items which would have been planted with Oswald as part of the Cuba/Castro frame but that the plotters didn't get a chance to use it as planned - just one more futile effort to pitch the planned frame after the fact.  The Alvarado incident (with Phillips endorsement) was another attempt to recover the frame. 

Interestingly Jim Hosty swears to this day he was told that Oswald was actually issued a Cuban visa.....its unlikely that Cuba did that but a fake visa may have been put into circulation to generate the story Hosty heard.  You can bet if the plot had worked and this sort of material had been found with a dead Oswald - apparently trying to escape in the direction of Cuba - that there would have been a declaration of war in about the same time it took to vote it through after Pearl Harbor. 

-- Larry

Hi, Larry

Hosty's statement re; Cuban document{s} etc; reminds me that upon my return

from Cuba while visiting my good friend Joaquin Frerie Cuban Consul,Chicago, he

was 'extremely upset' telling me he was in trouble with Havana/Castro,as several

Blank Cuban Passports were missing/stolen from his office.

Until he was replaced the mystery was never solved. Frerie resigned the diplomatic position and moved to Miami area. Juan Orta and Frerie were long time

friends and diplomats,Orta being Castro's chief of staff. Both resigned as the

Invasion neared. Thought you should know, and I was always concerned.

H. Dean

Miami

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Harry, that is a very interesting piece of news. I would have thought

CIA had the technical resources to forge passports without resorting

to theft (which of course warns your target country that somebody has

the real thing). However it does raise the point that someone was in the

position to plant legitimate documents with people traveling openly to

Cuba rather than infiltrating.

I can imagine Oswald found with a Cuban passport on November 22 and

the Cuban government trying to deny they had issued it....I'm sure it would

have had appropriate entry and exit history on it.

-- Larry

quote=Harry J.Dean,May 29 2005, 07:57 AM]

At the risk of bringing up old news (except this point doesn't get nearly enough attention) I'll also point out again that a box full of documents - including motel and telephone records as well as other hard evidence - was turned into the DPD a few weeks after the assassination.  Several officers swore to having seen the material and said that it definitely implicated Oswald as being part of a conspiracy and associated him with Ruby.  The materal was even acknowledged by the DA who was prosecuting Ruby,  however he said it had no bearing on his case so it was of no use to him.  That material has never been seen again.

My speculation is that material included items which would have been planted with Oswald as part of the Cuba/Castro frame but that the plotters didn't get a chance to use it as planned - just one more futile effort to pitch the planned frame after the fact.  The Alvarado incident (with Phillips endorsement) was another attempt to recover the frame. 

Interestingly Jim Hosty swears to this day he was told that Oswald was actually issued a Cuban visa.....its unlikely that Cuba did that but a fake visa may have been put into circulation to generate the story Hosty heard.  You can bet if the plot had worked and this sort of material had been found with a dead Oswald - apparently trying to escape in the direction of Cuba - that there would have been a declaration of war in about the same time it took to vote it through after Pearl Harbor. 

-- Larry

Hi, Larry

Hosty's statement re; Cuban document{s} etc; reminds me that upon my return

from Cuba while visiting my good friend Joaquin Frerie Cuban Consul,Chicago, he

was 'extremely upset' telling me he was in trouble with Havana/Castro,as several

Blank Cuban Passports were missing/stolen from his office.

Until he was replaced the mystery was never solved. Frerie resigned the diplomatic position and moved to Miami area. Juan Orta and Frerie were long time

friends and diplomats,Orta being Castro's chief of staff. Both resigned as the

Invasion neared. Thought you should know, and I was always concerned.

H. Dean

Miami

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A man approaches Oswald (maybe he is a Castro agent; maybe he is a Mafioso; maybe he is a Texas oli baron concerning about his tax liability--we need not decide who the big fish is). The man knows Oswald is working for US intelligence.

The man tells Oswald he is Mr Smith of the CIA. The man tells Oswald he is going to be given a most important mission. The man tells Oswald there are still nuclear missiles in Cuba and their presence may result in a calamitous war. The man tells Oswald he is to be used in a plot to force JFK to invade Cuba and get rid of Castro. The man tells Oswald his role is to smuggle a rifle into the Texas School Book Depository for a fake ATTEMPT to kill JFK, to be blamed on Oswald and justify the invasion of Cuba. The man tells Oswald he will have to flee the country but in a few years he can come back as the hero who saved the world.

The man tells Oswald only a few people know the plan and he should discuss it with no one, not even whoever is now "controlling him".

When Oswald hears from Truly and Baker that JFK has been KILLED he knows something is wrong. Either the plot was far more serious than told to him or it was a set-up or anything. He immediately suspects that whatever is going on he is dispendable. So he attempts to flee.

Granted it is speculation but it COULD fit regardless of who was really behind the assassination. What do you think?

Tim, this scenario has ONE important thing going for it: it fits the FACTS as we know them. It would be the PERFECT explanation for Oswald's behavior both BEFORE and AFTER the assassination, as well as his responses while in police custody.

Tim, the plot as expressed to the participants (and to the extent that it was even communicated) was to killl JFK and frame Castro, resulting in his overthrow by the U.S.. in retaliation. The people involved in the tactical side of the plot belived this and were disappointed when Oswald's capture and the Lone Nut cover-up preempted a response against Cuba. Now whether the folks at the top of the food chain were totally upset about that or whether they had put a fix in with LBJ before hand is open to speculation. You can bet that the exiles involved were very unhappy. And I have outlined ongoing attempts over the next 60 days to try to pin the blame on Castro even in the face of the cover-up.

The cover-up was completely separate from the conspiracy and was conducted in order to avoid a conflict with the Russians.....and justified based on some of the immediate evidence that suggest contact by Oswald with the Russians and Cubans as well as by many of the indications that Oswald himself had contacts with lots of suspicious people and was in no way a "lone nut". The cover-up was single handedly driven by LBJ even though certain individuals did not agree with it. Johnson's motives can be questioned but the results are pretty clear - and it was not a pretty cover-up, it was iterative and reactive and left loose ends all over the place. And in the years afterwards, many of those involved (like Admiral Burkley)

even tested the waters to see if they could tell the real truth....only to quickly discern (as with Bowers earlier and Odio later) that nobody in authority really wanted to deal with it.

The tactical ambush on the President was masterful, the plot to frame Oswald was pretty darn good but fell apart with Tippett's killing and Oswald's capture. The use of Ruby to eliminate Oswald was pure desparation and disclosed links the WC had to work very hard to avoid (so hard they refused to support or listen to their two field men in Dallas investigating Ruby).

In conjunction with Larry's scenario above, Tim's Oswald "speculation" is a pretty good fit. And, most importantly, I've seen NOTHING that refutes this "speculation" with any great deal of credibility.

The evidence in the JFK assassination has ALWAYS suggested that two--or more--factions within the US government were operating at odds with one another, in regards to the explanation of the assassination/cover story/whatever you want to call it. Not that it was necessarily FBI vs. CIA, either; the evidence suggests that there was a rift WITHIN the CIA, and WITHIN the military, as to how this was going to be played to the American people.

In fact, LBJ's response, according to the LBJ tapes, changed dramatically within a few short days. At first, LBJ was adamant that, since there was no federal law broken in the killing of the President, the "Great State of Texas" should have sloe jurisdiction in any investigation...which would mean that, through his political influence in his home state, Johnson could ensure that nothing HE wanted supressed would come out. But somehow, in the span of a few days, LBJ was just as adamant that a presidential commission should look into this matter. Was it just to head off a Congressional investigation? Considering that LBJ had the sympathy of the public behind him, I believe a televised address to the nation would've convinced the public that Congress had no place looking into a murder, that this was a place for professionals to tread, and that with the FBI's complete cooperation, this matter would be solved in a relatively short time.

But the apparent rift in within the government, both in how to investigate and how to construct the coverup, shows that there must have been a powerful difference of opinion separating some powerful people; else one scenario would've been squelched completely so that the other would rule the day. But the Cuba/USSR story kept being pushed, as if someone's agenda was war DESPITE the "official" line about a lone nut. And, at least in MY opinion, it took someone in a powerful position to make that happen.

And, when discussing Oswald's escape plan, don't forget the DPD being dispatched to a library not far from Oswald's apartment...only to determine "it was the wrong man." In those cheap detective novels, wasn't the library another "cliche'" place to meet your "contact," if NOT meeting him in a theater?

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