Scenario

[Tim Gratz]

Trafficante has been approached by Hoffa (confirmed) and possibly by Castro to kill JFK.

Trafficante knows through Rosselli that he is working with CIA agents (Harvey, Morales) who hate JFK. Trafficante knows that if they are suckered into the assassination, a cover-up will be assured. So Trafficante requests that Rosselli organize the assassination.

Rosselli begins by joking with Morales about killing JFK, feeling him out so to speak. The initial conversations occur during drinking bouts at "Alabama Jack's", a favorite CIA watering hole on Card Sound Road in the Florida Keys.

When Morales does not immediately reject the assassination idea, Rosselli begins a dance with him and finally gets to the point and makes an offer to him: "Morales, if you supply Cuban exile sharpshooters to kill JFK, the Mafia will supply the money and the intelligence [the latter primarily through Ruby]." Morales says yes so the assassination itself is organized by Rosselli and Morales.

So the conspiracy consists of Trafficante, probably Giancana, Rosselli, Ruby, Morales and a few Cuban exile sharpshooters and a few Mafioso shooters as well. The plot goes awry when LHO is not killed during capture, so the Mafia is forced to bring in Ruby to murder the "perfect patsy".

I speculate that Ruby helps the plotters by obtaining DPD uniforms and photos of Dallas police cars (which Trafficante uses to create a bogus DPD car). The CIA renegades may be proficient enough to create false SS identification.

P.S. Dillon was never consulted.

Edited June 20, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Knight]

I speculate that Ruby helps the plotters by obtaining DPD uniforms and photos of Dallas police cars (which Trafficante uses to create a bogus DPD car).

So....it's OK for Tim to speculate, but it's NOT OK for anyone else.

That message comes thru loud and clear, Counselor. You must live in an interesting world, one in which the rules you apply to others don't necessarily apply to yourself...kinda like Nixon's invocation of "executive privelege," in order to [attempt to] place himself above the law. [And I suppose one could argue that, in Nixon's case, his pardon by Gerald Ford--a pardon granted absent any conviction--proved that Nixon truly WAS above the law]

NOW your arguments are beginning to make sense...not from the arguments themselves, but from your application of "Tim's rules."

[Ron Ecker]

Trafficante has been approached by Hoffa (confirmed) and possibly by Castro to kill JFK.

Tim,

Unless I'm mistaken, the approach by Hoffa to Trafficante (and Marcello) is based entirely on an account by Frank Ragano, alleged deliverer of Hoffa's request, who was trying to sell a book (Mob Lawyer).

While Ragano may well have been telling the truth, I wouldn't consider his account to be confirmation that such an approach was made. For the approach to be confirmed, there must be something to confirm Ragano's account.

Ron

[James Richards]

Tim has asked me to post this image of Alabama Jacks' bar which is located out on Card Sound Road in Miami. This was a favored watering hole for many spooky types.

James

[Jack White]

Tim...please explain the role of Lyndon in your MAFIA DID IT scenario. Was he working for the Mafia?

Jack

[Tim Gratz]

Jack, I do not have reason to believe that LBJ either participated in or had pre-assassination knowledge of the assassination.

He clearly participated in the cover-up. He could have done so due to his fear that proof of foreign involvement would lead to a war. He could have done so because the Mafia blackmailed him. He could have done so even without express blackmail because he feared that if an investigation proved Mafia involvement that would inexorably lead to disclosure of his involvement with Marcello.

If indeed LBJ had been accepting Mafia largesse, he probably had more to fear if a full-fledged investigation showed Mafia involvement than if it showed Cuban involvement. If the latter had required a war, I suspect LBJ would have taken precautions so he would not be a casualty of that war.

[Tim Gratz]

I wrote:

I speculate that Ruby helps the plotters by obtaining DPD uniforms and photos of Dallas police cars (which Trafficante uses to create a bogus DPD car).

To which Mark Knight replied:

So....it's OK for Tim to speculate, but it's NOT OK for anyone else.

That message comes thru loud and clear, Counselor. You must live in an interesting world, one in which the rules you apply to others don't necessarily apply to yourself..

Given Mark's sarcasm, it is difficult to avoid replying in kind.

I speculated re what Ruby did to advance the plot.

I think it is beyond speculation that Ruby participated in the plot. Even if he was not aware of the plot before-hand, if he killed Lee Harvey Oswald to silence Oswald (whether Oswald was a conspirator or a patsy) Ruby was certainly an accessory after the fact.

Mark, you certainly do not contend that Ruby killed Oswald to save Jackie the agony of a trial? I thought only Gerald Posner thought that!

[Al Carrier]

I wrote:

I speculate that Ruby helps the plotters by obtaining DPD uniforms and photos of Dallas police cars (which Trafficante uses to create a bogus DPD car).

To which Mark Knight replied:

So....it's OK for Tim to speculate, but it's NOT OK for anyone else.

That message comes thru loud and clear, Counselor. You must live in an interesting world, one in which the rules you apply to others don't necessarily apply to yourself..

Given Mark's sarcasm, it is difficult to avoid replying in kind.

I speculated re what Ruby did to advance the plot.

I think it is beyond speculation that Ruby participated in the plot.  Even if he was not aware of the plot before-hand, if he killed Lee Harvey Oswald to silence Oswald (whether Oswald was a conspirator or a patsy) Ruby was certainly an accessory after the fact.

Mark, you certainly do not contend that Ruby killed Oswald to save Jackie the agony of a trial?  I thought only Gerald Posner thought that!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

Do you honestly believe that a member of the US Intelligence Branch would utilize second rate counter-revoloutionaries who could not even infultrate their own island to pull off such an operation as was seen in Dallas? And then allow then to go on and play second-rate roles in a second rate laughable operation against the likes of Castro. And to utilize mafia dons and pimps to set this up? Now they were reliable and trustworthy to keep it quiet? This same Intelligence person who had access to highly trained and expendable US soldiers would choose a second string if you can even call them that.

How about looking into US Military Personnel who died within 90 days of the assassination and checking for the following; Inconsistencies in the manner of their death as to the operation they were involved, inconsistencies as to link the operation they were involved as to the original operation and the lack of documentation to the original operation, inconsistencies and/or unheard of alpha-numeric MOS codes assigned to the person(s), consistencies in their personal info that made them ideal for being expendable. Major Lopez knew how to pick them. In respect to his widow and children/grandchildren, he shall remain Major Lopez.

Al

[Tim Gratz]

Al asked me:

Do you honestly believe that a member of the US Intelligence Branch would utilize second rate counter-revoloutionaries who could not even infultrate their own island to pull off such an operation as was seen in Dallas?

I honestly do!

There is, of course, a difference between infiltrating an island heavily guarded and patroled by Castro's soldiers and shooting a rifle.

I believe it is in "Sons and Brothers" and the reference might be to Brad Ayers, who witnessed sniper training with Johnny Rosselli on Pt. Mary (on Key Largo--not too far from Card Sound Road, by the way). Whoever it was (and again I think it was Ayers) saw the Cuban rifleman use a rifle to kill a comorant at sufficient distance to impress Ayers. No proof this was connected with the assassination. The book notes, however, that when Ayers heard of the assassination he immediately thought of the sniper he had witnessed on Pt Mary.

Do I think Rosselli was smart enough to plan an ambush with trained snipers and plans for an escape? You betcha I do.

Note also that the scenario works even if you change some of the assumed facts. For instance, you could decide to credit Rivele's theory that Trafficante imported Corsican sharpshooters.

If one wants to posit Cuban involvement in this scenario, one can also fit that one.

I think this scenario fits and explains much of what we know about the assassination. It could reconcile, for instance, possible Cuban complicity with Martino's statements that anti-Castro Cuban exiles were involved.

If the plan was sufficiently compartmentalized, which is a presumed given if the planner(s) were that smart, one team of assassins would not have known the identities of members of the other teams.

As I am sure you know, I highly question CIA institutional involvement but it is certainly possible as I suggested that Rosselli involved some of his CIA friends primarily to muddy the waters. I think Rosselli was that clever.

I also think Trafficante was smart enough to plot the thing. And he may very well have used his friend Marcello to blackmail LBJ. And it is my speculation that Rosselli had "planted: Judith Campbell on JFK so Rosselli had sufficient information to ensure that RFK kept his mouth shut.

The CIA's use of the Mafia to try to kill Castro; JFK's use of a woman associated with the Mafia; and LBJ's corrupt involvement with Marcello may very well have presented the Mafia with the opportunity to kill the President knowing it would "get away with it".

Edited June 21, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

So it is not really "Castro did it" but rather

"anyone but the government agencies did it" .......

Am I the only one who finds this material very tiresome?

[Tim Gratz]

Of course you find it tiresome, Shanet.

It does not fit your pet theory.

But it does reconcile the evidence in what I consider a plausible sequence.

Shanet, I am still waiting for any evidence you have (not just your pontificating theories) that a government agency orchestrated the assassination. I recall the witticism Adlai Stevenson gave to the Russian ambassador to the UN during the Cuban missile crisis; I suspect I shall need to wait as long as Stevenson was prepared to.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

The frame of the patsy.

The halting of the limousine.

The forgery of the autopsy.

Shall we go on???

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet:

How specifically does the frame of LHO prove a government agency did it?

Re "the halting of the limousine" I posted in another thread that people, even highly trained professionals such as physicians, make mistakes in emergency situations, when the very nature of the emergency requires a split-second decision with no opportunity to reflect on one's training. I submit it is absurd on its face to believe that the conspirators convinced Greer to pilot a car at which bullets would be flying. We should be careful to question any proposition that defies common sense.

Re the alleged forgery of the autopsy is it then your contention that KFK's personal physician was part of the plot? Also would not a forged autopsy as you call it also be consistent with my theory that the government was intent on preventing a proof of a conspiracy not because the government was part of it but because the government feared the consequences if the conspiracy involved foreign nations?

Since all of your above points are explainable, or consistent with my scenario, perhaps you should go on, and offer one item of evidence that can ONLY be explained by a plot orchestrsated by a government agency?

Edited June 22, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[David G. Healy]

TGratz wrote:

[...]

Whoever it was (and again I think it was Ayers) saw the Cuban rifleman use a rifle to kill a comorant at sufficient distance to impress Ayers. No proof this was connected with the assassination. The book notes, however, that when Ayers heard of the assassination he immediately thought of the sniper he had witnessed on Pt Mary.

[...]

Ahem, you win many cases down your way? Just curious.

[Al Carrier]

Shanet:

How specifically does the frame of LHO prove a government agency did it?

Re "the halting of the limousine" I posted in another thread that people, even highly trained professionals such as physicians, make mistakes in emergency situations, when the very nature of the emergency requires a split-second decision with no opportunity to reflect on one's training.  I submit it is absurd on its face to believe that the conspirators convinced Greer to pilot a car at which bullets would be flying.  We should be careful to question any proposition that defies common sense.

Re the alleged forgery of the autopsy is it then your contention that KFK's personal physician was part of the plot? Also would not a forged autopsy as you call it also be consistent with my theory that the government was intent on preventing a proof of a conspiracy not because the government was part of it but because the government feared the consequences if the conspiracy involved foreign nations?

Since all of your above points are explainable, or consistent with my scenario, perhaps you should go on, and offer one item of evidence that can ONLY be explained by a plot orchestrsated by a government agency?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

Maybe you can provide evidence of any mafia arranged hits where snipers were used? Can you provide evidence of successful operations that were orchestrated by Rosselli? Can you provide any successful operations in the Cuban Project that involved the mafia and the anti-Castro Cubans? Can you show me that the anti-Castro Cuban operations in the Cuban Project was nothing more than laughable? Just because they were arranged, does not make them realistic. Remember, we are dealing with the likes of an alcoholic loose cannon CIA Agent who was expelled to Italy and then went into the shadows of history, who made these contacts with the likes of the greater in death than in life Johnny.

From my background, it didn't take more than watching the assassination films to see that this was a military operation. It took more than a hostile Cuban revoloutionary with minimal training who could pluck a stationary bird at 200m with a scoped rifle. Hell, my thirteen year-old who has never shot a rifle could pull that off with a few hours of instruction, but would not be one chosen and successful for what went down in DP. This took expertise of a true scout sniper who could infultrate, stage and escape and hide the origin of the shot sequence, all along striking a moving target at varying speeds and angles. Taking the shot is not more than 20-30% of a success rate that is required for such an operation.

If you can track your suspects involved directly in DP for more than days after, you have cleared them. They would not be trusted to remain silent and we would not be having this discussion after all of these years. Simple operational guidelines.

I will agree with you on one thing. It is ludicrous to believe that Greer and Kellerman had anything to do with this. Who would ever put themselves within the circle of fire in a moving vehicle with foresight of what was to take place? Nobody!!!

Al