Familiar DGI Faces In Dealey Plaza

[Thomas Graves]

In answe to your specific question, Diaz, of course, is the "badgeman". 

Is this what Veciana stated?  Or Abella?  If so, where can we find confirmation for same?  If not, on what basis have you reached this conclusion?  No offense, but this seems like a bait-and-switch tactic: unable to locate a photo in which either Veicana or Abella might have seen Diaz, we now have another source for that putative ID, but this one is not identified.  And that's the least of your problems.

Moreover, unless there is a clearer shot of "Badgeman" that I haven't seen, I would ask: how it is possible to determine a person's identity when his facial features are completely obscured from view?

Since Jack White, one of the people who first brought "Badgeman" to our attention, is a regular poster here, perhaps we could get some imput from him.  Tim, if you have a photo of Raul Diaz's face, could you please provide it so that we can view it for comparison purposes?  [Gary Mack shares credit with Jack White for the "Badgeman" discovery, and is also a member here, though he doesn't post.  Perhaps he could be persuaded to do so on this issue.]

My Cuban sources have positively identified him.  The facial characteristics are identical. 

That's nice.  Are Veciana or Abella among your "Cuban sources?"  If not, who are your "Cuban sources?"  If we are to trust their "positive identification," it would be helpful to know on what basis they reached their conclusion, and how much effort was undertaken to achieve it.

And, again of course, how it is possible to determine a person's identity when his facial features are completely obscured from view? 

So in response to your question, I have no idea how hard the committees looked for these photos.  With respect to Mr. Fonzi, whose book is, of course, a great read, I think he was more interested in tracking down Maurice Bishop than he was in locating Castro agents in Dealey Plaza.

Think what you like, Tim.  The fact remains that Fonzi tried to help Abella - not Veciana who didn't seem at all interested or involved, you will note - locate a photo of Diaz.  Surely if either Veciana or Abella told Fonzi that Diaz was dressed like a cop and was photographed on the grassy knoll, this would have narrowed the search parameters dramatically.  Neither man seems to have mentioned this salient detail to Fonzi. 

Nor would/could they have, since the "Badgeman" photo enhancement didn't surface until well after Veciana and Abella were quizzed on the topic.  At the time that these two Cubans were providing help to the Church and House Select committees, the only thing seen in the pertinent photograph was a puff of smoke.

And the interesting thing is--if Hemming is telling the truth--it was not Bishop that Veciana saw with LHO in Dallas but Jake Esterline.  (Hemming says Esterline himself told him this.) Now the timing might not have cooperated in terms of when Hemming's deposition was taken, but it is interesting to contemplate the different avenues the investigation may have taken had the Committee asked Hemming about the Veciana story.

If this is true, and Veciana is to be believed, then "Maurice Bishop" must have been Jake Esterline, despite your assertion to the contrary.  Persumably, in the summer of 1963 Veciana would know "Bishop" by sight, having worked with him for several years previous.  One finds it impossible to rationalize how Veciana could have made so basic a mistake.      

The problems raised by this assertion are too numerous to itemize, but even superficially, it is unlikely that the Pennsylvanian-born Esterline had "Bishop"'s Texan accent.  While he undoubtedly spoke Spanish, is there any evidence that Esterline spoke French?  And why, pray tell, would Esterline disclose to Hemming, of all people, that he had been in Oswald's company?  If Esterline disclosed that much, did he also tell Hemming why he was meeting with Oswald just months prior to the assassination?  For a guy tasked with running the Miami end of anti-Castro operations, doesn't it seem more than passing strange that he should take time out of his schedule to meet with a nebish like Oswald in Dallas, even if he was there to meet with Veciana?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have appended the sketch of "Bishop"/photo of Phillips/and photo of Esterline for comparative purposes.

Hi Robert and Tim,

Here's my rhetorical question for the day: Did Jake Esterline (or Jack Hawkins, for that matter) have lots of WARTS, MOLES, or "SPOTS" on his face such as David A. Phillips had on his and which, significantly(?), can be seen in the police artist's sketch of Veciana's handler [whose sketched face just happens to (very) strongly resemble Phillips]? And what 'bout dem baggy eyes? To get a better idea of what I'm talkin' 'bout, see the same police artist's sketch of Phillips on the bottom of page 1 on the thread titled "David Atlee Phillips--The mastermind?"

FWIW, Thomas

Edited November 5, 2005 by Thomas Graves

[Owen Parsons]

Esterline doesn't look anything like the "Maurice Bishop" sketch, IMHO. In addition to that, there is also Frank Terpil's identification of Bishop and Phillips as being one and the same.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Gerry Hemming]

Esterline doesn't like anything like the "Maurice Bishop" sketch, IMHO. In addition to that, there is also Frank Terpil's identification of Bishop and Phillips as being one and the same.

----------------------------

Owen:

Now let me grab a handle on this: Veciana told tall tales, but we can still nit-pick [out-of-context] other "truths" which might fit some of our pre-conceived notions, I guess thats, OK -- everybody else dooz-it !!

Tony grew tremendously annoyed that Fonzi, et al. were "centering-upon": That LHO with "Bishop" in Dallas automatically means that -- either they were complicit in the conspiracy to murder JFK; or maybe "Bishop" was "Patsying" LHO by taking him by Bunker's office; or......never mind.

Tony was compartmented, but aware of the RFK "road-watcher/shooter" teams, especially the South Dade and McLaney [Hammond, Algiers, Covington, LaFitte] teams; but really wasn't in the mood for endlessly drawnout tutoring of [obviously-being-sabotaged] "investigators" who had mostly "nil" at the time. He knew that Gaeton, Gonzales, et al. were being vectored away from serious "subjects-of-interest" by the HSCA & Intel Community upper/mid echelons. Moreover, he suspected that the exposure of many of these people would solve nothing but DGI's interest in documenting JM/WAVE and other CIA operations. The NSA's most dreaded "Flap", the emerging ability of code-breakers to de-cipher ancient cable intercepts through the matching-up of the then current subject matter.

As for where Veciana was on 11/22/68 ?? Now let me see, if you can give me a few more "suspects" I can consolidate most of my long-distance calls to maybe three nights. Would the other inquiring member prefer that I preface each query with "...picking your toes.." or "...quit beating your wife...?"!!

I don't know whether Tony got the November 18th, 1963 urgent calls for Dallas & Ft. Worth meetings with VIP "financiers" who were in a funds disbursment mood. Felipe did, and "Bishop" went with him to Dallas.

Sturgis and Diaz Lanz [sans "Monica" Lorenz] did and hit Dallas on Thursday [11/21/63]. Many others, and I only suspect that Tony also, heeded my advice about staying clear of JFK's travel itinerary; especially after the MIA scenario.

Felipe vidal Santiago [and brother Ivan] were encouraged to defect personnally by the then Caracas, Vanezuela CIA/COS Jake Esterline. Jake got him an urgent P.OA., and dispatched him to a Bogota, Colombia safehouse. [Felipe was then Fidel's Cuban Naval Attache in Caracas] Once in Miami, Felipe was quickly vetoed by the Bender [Droller] Bastistiano-loving clique -- and especially since Felipe had been one of the leaders of the 1957 Cienfuegos navy base uprising against Batista's thugs.

What I do know is: The "Bishop" CIA case officer for Felipe [1962-1963] was NOT either Jake nor Philipps.

Say, I know what -- Frank Terpil has been "hanging-out" in Habana for years, not sure if he ever "chilled" there with Phil Agee; but give Phil a call, maybe he has Frank's number, and...maybe Frank has more "Intel" or might want to rephrase or recant. NOT that I would ever think that he had any malice whatsoever against Dave Philipps [perish-the-thought]. And especially NOT because Dave was promoted over him into the Clandestine Service -- and egaads, up from being a Paul Bethel type [but just CIA/jounalistic cover "NOC"] to a career DDP/DDO pay grade to boot !!

I guess Ed Wilson [who knew Veciana way back when] really knew how to pick them for the MOSSAD penetration Op against Qhadaffy-Duck. Tony could have "chilled" with Ed at "Super-Max" Marion FP if they hadn't sent him elsewhere. Then again, bunking 4 levels underground might discourage a tropicalized Cubano.

The only thing that irritated me, was that the .357 Magnum used on the anti-Daffy-duck raghead in Idaho was purchased from my Son's Fire Chief at Bonnie Doone V. F. D., FAY/NC !!

Oh well, nada new here...but Yada, Yada...so its back to Oprah for me...maybe then Dr. Phil -- mucho mas intellesting for us Yanqui-running-dogs-of-imperialism; eh wot ol boy ??!!

Hasta Luigi,

GPH

____________________________

[Robert Howard]

Esterline doesn't like anything like the "Maurice Bishop" sketch, IMHO. In addition to that, there is also Frank Terpil's identification of Bishop and Phillips as being one and the same.

----------------------------

Owen:

Now let me grab a handle on this: Veciana told tall tales, but we can still nit-pick [out-of-context] other "truths" which might fit some of our pre-conceived notions, I guess thats, OK -- everybody else dooz-it !!

Tony grew tremendously annoyed that Fonzi, et al. were "centering-upon": That LHO with "Bishop" in Dallas automatically means that -- either they were complicit in the conspiracy to murder JFK; or maybe "Bishop" was "Patsying" LHO by taking him by Bunker's office; or......never mind.

Tony was compartmented, but aware of the RFK "road-watcher/shooter" teams, especially the South Dade and McLaney [Hammond, Algiers, Covington, LaFitte] teams; but really wasn't in the mood for endlessly drawnout tutoring of [obviously-being-sabotaged] "investigators" who had mostly "nil" at the time. He knew that Gaeton, Gonzales, et al. were being vectored away from serious "subjects-of-interest" by the HSCA & Intel Community upper/mid echelons. Moreover, he suspected that the exposure of many of these people would solve nothing but DGI's interest in documenting JM/WAVE and other CIA operations. The NSA's most dreaded "Flap", the emerging ability of code-breakers to de-cipher ancient cable intercepts through the matching-up of the then current subject matter.

As for where Veciana was on 11/22/68 ?? Now let me see, if you can give me a few more "suspects" I can consolidate most of my long-distance calls to maybe three nights. Would the other inquiring member prefer that I preface each query with "...picking your toes.." or "...quit beating your wife...?"!!

I don't know whether Tony got the November 18th, 1963 urgent calls for Dallas & Ft. Worth meetings with VIP "financiers" who were in a funds disbursment mood. Felipe did, and "Bishop" went with him to Dallas.

Sturgis and Diaz Lanz [sans "Monica" Lorenz] did and hit Dallas on Thursday [11/21/63]. Many others, and I only suspect that Tony also, heeded my advice about staying clear of JFK's travel itinerary; especially after the MIA scenario.

Felipe vidal Santiago [and brother Ivan] were encouraged to defect personnally by the then Caracas, Vanezuela CIA/COS Jake Esterline. Jake got him an urgent P.OA., and dispatched him to a Bogota, Colombia safehouse. [Felipe was then Fidel's Cuban Naval Attache in Caracas] Once in Miami, Felipe was quickly vetoed by the Bender [Droller] Bastistiano-loving clique -- and especially since Felipe had been one of the leaders of the 1957 Cienfuegos navy base uprising against Batista's thugs.

What I do know is: The "Bishop" CIA case officer for Felipe [1962-1963] was NOT either Jake nor Philipps.

Say, I know what -- Frank Terpil has been "hanging-out" in Habana for years, not sure if he ever "chilled" there with Phil Agee; but give Phil a call, maybe he has Frank's number, and...maybe Frank has more "Intel" or might want to rephrase or recant. NOT that I would ever think that he had any malice whatsoever against Dave Philipps [perish-the-thought]. And especially NOT because Dave was promoted over him into the Clandestine Service -- and egaads, up from being a Paul Bethel type [but just CIA/jounalistic cover "NOC"] to a career DDP/DDO pay grade to boot !!

I guess Ed Wilson [who knew Veciana way back when] really knew how to pick them for the MOSSAD penetration Op against Qhadaffy-Duck. Tony could have "chilled" with Ed at "Super-Max" Marion FP if they hadn't sent him elsewhere. Then again, bunking 4 levels underground might discourage a tropicalized Cubano.

The only thing that irritated me, was that the .357 Magnum used on the anti-Daffy-duck raghead in Idaho was purchased from my Son's Fire Chief at Bonnie Doone V. F. D., FAY/NC !!

Oh well, nada new here...but Yada, Yada...so its back to Oprah for me...maybe then Dr. Phil -- mucho mas intellesting for us Yanqui-running-dogs-of-imperialism; eh wot ol boy ??!!

Hasta Luigi,

GPH

____________________________

I took your advice hesitantly about interpreting your posts, remember the Ruth Paine query, and the "Trans-Siberian Gas Pipeline Explosion." Somehow I was able to discover through the looking-glass that Ruth Paine's Quaker buddy in NO Ruth Kloepfer had spoken to Jack Ruby preceeding the dirty deed in Dallas. I really do find your presence on the forum a good thing, for goodness sakes Oswald working for U.S Customs, you mentioned US Customs just a few weeks ago. I guess my problem is that I have never subscribed to the notion that evil can't be overcome, I believe it can. I think the cunundrum on the Forum reflects how frustrated people get when agendas and theories, get in the way of serious inquiry. I mean Tim Gratz's and his unrelenting quest to link Castro to the assassination to me comes off like trying to fulfill the plotters of JFK's demise of "Cuber." I suppose everythings relative, one mans ceiling is another mans floor sort of thing. I personally think (was it?) Oswald's "Hunter of Fascists Ha, Ha" has the potential to be the catchphrase for the New Left, in the Third Millenium.

[James Richards]

James, do you have any other photographs of Hawkins?

Sorry this has taken so long. I have been digging amongst some old photo folders (and unearthing some gems BTW) and found this one of a young Jack Hawkins.

James

[John Dolva]

hoping not to be out of line here, but that photo's 'wierd'. I felt compelled to suggest a modification. obviously that is what it is, a modification, with a possibility of being more 'correct'.

[James Richards]

John,

The image may have been askew in the scanning process. The modified version does look correct. Can you do another one without the MOD letters?

James

[John Dolva]

ok

[James Richards]

Nice work, John. Thanks.

James

[Tim Carroll]

I've always been troubled by Hawkins' role in the Bay of Pigs. It doesn't make sense. Here's a paragraph from something I wrote years ago:

Kennedy never gave up on his prohibition of American military forces. The president was therefore strongly influenced by a telegram he received from Col. Jack Hawkins, who, after inspecting the Cuban exile force, wrote that they "do not expect help from the U.S. armed forces."[1] Ken O'Donnell, the president's Chief of Staff, recalled that the colonel's report "glowed with approval, and that Kennedy told him it was "this impressive message . . . that finally prompted him to give the go-ahead."[2] Interestingly, Hawkins himself recorded that after 35 years of silence, with the declassification of his information, he had quite a different story to tell. He claims that he and the Chief of the Cuba Project went to the CIA's Richard Bissell, "to attempt to dissuade him from continuing with the operation." He claims their motive was that they "did not want to be parties to the disaster [they] believed lay ahead." Hawkins' appraisal was that "it had become obvious that the military requirements for a successful operation and the President's insistence on plausible deniability were in irreconcilable conflict." Nowhere in his recent article does Col. Hawkins seek to address the discrepancy between the glowing telegram to the president and his warning to the Deputy Director for Plans of the CIA. The contradictory versions of people such as Hawkins, who were responsible for the information upon which Kennedy had to rely, are indicative of the kind of reality in which decisionmakers find themselves when trying to sift through the morass of constructions within constructions.[3]

1. Michael Beschloss, 1991, The Crisis Years: Kennedy and Khrushchev, 1960-1963, New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 114.

2. O'Donnell, Powers & McCarthy, 1970, Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye, Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 272.

3. Jack Hawkins, "Classified Disaster: The Bay of Pigs Operation was Doomed by Presidential Indecisiveness and Lack of Commitment," National Review, (December 31, 1996, v48 n25), 36(3).

T.C.