Speed of the Motorcade

[Tim Gratz]

And some think there may have been shots coming from in front.

If the FIRST shot came from the rear, probably he should have accelerated away.

I think this has been discussed before but what did the car or cars ahead of Greer do? I guess if they were slow-pokes he could have sounded his horn or pulled out of line--but wasn't he waiting for Hill to climb on board?

Pretty sure this was discussed in a previous thread months ago.

I suppose the presidential limousine did not havea siren mounted? Sure seems like it should have, for emergencies, if it did not.

Edited July 3, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Al Carrier]

And some think there may have been shots coming from in front.

If the FIRST shot cxame from the rear, probably he should have accelerated away.

I think this has been discussed before but what did the car or cars ahead of Greer do?  I guess if they were slow-pokes he could have sounded his horn or pulled out of line--but wasn't he waiting for Hill to climb on board?

Pretty sure this was discussed in a previous thread months ago.

I suppose the presidential limousine did not havea siren mounted?  Sure seems like it should have, for emergencies, if it did not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

The key here is to look at this from within the motorcade and not in hindsight. Armchair quarterbacking the mistakes made after the fact would leave a critic of the SS into believing conspiracies within at every angle. The follow-up car had a siren and sounded it. There were nine agents in the follow-up car that had a clear view of what was taking place and eight did not react in time. What would the gain be to have the pres. limo sound a siren. The lead car would have seen the limo lurch out of the standard route and speed and would have had to react from that with the siren or without.

Remember that the Dallas Trip was crucial to expose Kennedy to the public and overreacting to possible firecrackers (which had been detonated earlier in a more congested portion of the route) would have shown weakness that would have destroyed any positives of the trip. DP was an ampitheatre for confusing sounds and origins. Put yourself in Greer or Kellerman's place for once and also in the place of the follow-up car agents.

Hill responded heroically IMO and in unbelievable timing to the event. To criticize the others for not meeting that standard is unrealistic.

One cannot focus on what had happened after the fact but instead put themselves in the place of the agents during the time and heap on their responsibility areas of concern and then throw in the curve ball that was dealt to them.

Remember that they had just come off the congested and noisy portion of Main and in all likelihood let down their guard sub-consciously when they entered the quiet and nearly empty in comparison area of DP.

The plotters and assassins knew what they were doing. It was an ideal layout for them with everything considered.

Al

[Tim Gratz]

Excellent point, Al, about the siren and that most of the Secret Serevice agents (eight out of nine in the follow-up car) did not act appropriately in the emergency--an emergency none of them had ever encountered before.

You wrote:

Armchair quarterbacking the mistakes made after the fact would leave a critic of the SS into believing conspiracies within at every angle[/color]

I certainly agree with this point as well. One cannot infer a conspiracy from a mistake, and one judged, as you state, as an "armchair quarterback". I trust you that you know whereof you speak re the mistakes of the eight following SS agents. This shows that Greer was not alone in not acting as one might like faced with an emergency they had never encountered before.

It of course makes no sense to assume that all of the Secret Service agents but Hill were part of the conspiracy.

You have previously pointed out that it was not necessary for any "security stripping" to occur or for the involvement of any Secret Service agents in the conspiracy. With snipers with sufficient expertise, perhaps the only thing that might have prevented the ambush from being deadly was if the top had been in place but JFK loved convertibles and I do not think he often had the top in place in either nice weather or parades.

I think the issue is important because issues such as the alleged change in the parade route and security stripping might be evidence of an "inside" conspiracy. However, the fact that there clearly was no security strippiong does not, of course, exclude an "inside job"; all it does is remove a possible proof of where the assassination conspiracy was conceived. Even if it was an inside job, since, as you pointed out in an earlier thread, security stripping was not necessary for the plot to succeed, it makes no sense that the conspirators would have exposed the plot to people not essential to its success, since every approach tio a potential new comspirator woud increase the chance that the plot would be exposed and prevented before the fact and/or increase the chance of someone talking and revealing the conspiracy if it was succesful.

I think it is time we put these issues to bed once and for all. There cannot be proof of an alleged inside conspiracy due to factors such as security stripping (did not occur) or the limousine slowing (mistakes are made, particularly in emergencies). Of course, the absence of such factors cannot rule out an inside job either.

You also wrote:

The plotters and assassins knew what they were doing.

A point I think MOST of us would agree with. The conspiarators made few mistakes or they would have been caught. Obviously having Oswald be captured alive was not part of the plan. The lack of adequate investigation also helped the conspirators succeed. The question re the cover-up, it seems to me, is how the conspirators guaranteed it (if they did in fact guarante it). Larry has pointed out that LBJ by himself could have orchestrated the cover-up. This does not prove he was involved in the conspiracy. One possibility that has been suggested (by others as well as me, I believe) is that LBJ was black-mailed.

Sorry if I got a bit away from the narrow topic of the speed of the limousine.

Thanks again for your comments. The Forum is fortunate to have someone with your expertise.

Edited July 3, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

The failure of the SS to maintain speed and accelerate out of the

ambuscade have not gone away, not by any means.

The route, the slow slow speed, the braking under fire,

indicate some willful resistance to basic limosine security standards.

After DeDaulles driver saved his life from ambush by pure acceleration;

the agencies failed in a spectacular manner.

If Oswald was only a sociopath who defected to USSR and came back,

he would have been watched.

Look at the fourteen agents atop the railroad overpass

directly over Kennedy's head.

Look at the bright red brake lights in the color photos.

Watch the film of a CLINT HILL run and catch the vehicle and climb aboard the

walking speed vehicle !!!!!!!

A heavy limousine would COAST down that grade at 20-30 miles an hour, with no acceleration at all............

The security didn't "fail" it simply did as instructed to allow the EXECUTIVE SANCTION /// /// ///

Edited July 3, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[David G. Healy]

Al Carrier wrote/quoted:

If the FIRST... shot cxame from the rear, probably he should have..[...]

Tim,

The key here is to look at this from within the motorcade and not in hindsight. Armchair quarterbacking the mistakes made after the fact would leave a critic of the SS into believing conspiracies within at every angle.

well, that's a bit of a stretch... make after action reports a useless exercise, dontcha think?

[...]

Remember that the Dallas Trip was crucial to expose Kennedy to the public ...

JFK needed the texas vote, with or WITHOUT Johnson in the next election cycle - not to mention, help repair in a upclose manner Texas Dem party politics...

[...]

Hill responded heroically IMO and in unbelievable timing to the event. To criticize the others for not meeting that standard is unrealistic.

they LOST their charge Al, JFK -- fini! Their sole reason for being in DP at that moment -- hero? (I'm sure if they [the SS] had the proper info, they might of avoided the area...).

When they 'recovered, maybe. They were stunned, then acted appropriate-inappropriate, -you choose- as we've heard.

One cannot focus on what had happened after the fact but instead put themselves in the place of the agents during the time and heap on their responsibility areas of concern and then throw in the curve ball that was dealt to them.

What? If NOT -- How does ANY agency (police or military) learn from ANY action? -- I suspect 'NO' Presidental Protection Detail agent, after Nov 22nd, spent the night drinking till wee hours of the morning then report for a 6AM shift. So your right, THAT wouldn't take much "focus"

Remember that they had just come off the congested and noisy portion of Main and in all likelihood let down their guard sub-consciously when they entered the quiet and nearly empty in comparison area of DP.

The plotters and assassins knew what they were doing. It was an ideal layout for them with everything considered.

so, in short, who was responsible? The assassin, obviously! Could the SS perform 'better', of course they could and WOULD -- I suspect the advance man took on whole new meaning!

Al

Edited July 3, 2005 by David G. Healy

[Pat Speer]

I totally agree with Al's basic point. It's highly likely that the White House Detail was not knowingly involved in the conspiracy. It's highly likely that Greer's behavior was innocent. What I'm stretching for here, and seeming to find some confirmation, is that their behavior might not be by chance. That is, that some outside factors were put into play in order to get them to fall down on the job.

Admittedly, I have not researched this at all. I'm away from my books and am just throwing out ideas. (Thank you Ron for posting Greer's testimony, BTW). I believe Chief Curry's car had pulled over and was trying to get those men off of the bridge. I remember reading that somewhere. I wonder if Greer didn't see that and fail to increase his speed as a result. I'm trying to remember who had the car pulled over. Was it Lawson? Wasn't Lawson also the man who planned the route? We know the WHD went out drinking the night before--were they accompanied by any of the local SS? Would not these men know the "cool" dives? Is it unreasonable to speculate that one of the local SS "invited" the WHD out for the evening? Is it a coincidence the bar they went to was owned by a pal of Ruby's? Did Ruby's friendship with the DPD extend to the local SS? Could not getting the security detail hammered have been part of the plan? I believe these are valid questions, and ones that should be answered, before we convince ourselves that there was nothing suspicious about the SS' behavior in Dealey.

[Ron Ecker]

I don’t understand how it can be argued that there was no security stripping in the Dallas motorcade. Look at the simple facts, as related in HSCA v. 11. The DPD had meetings on November 18 and 19, where it was agreed to use 18 motorcycles. This would include motorcycles on either side, five at the rear, four immediately ahead, and three to precede the motorcade by two blocks. But at a meeting of the DPD with SS agents Sorrels, Lawson, and David Grant on November 21, the DPD was told that this was too many, the number was cut back, and that JFK did not want motorcycles directly on each side, he wanted the officers to the rear, when in fact JFK had never said any such thing, as SS agents would state years later.

Quoting the HSCA: “The Secret Service’s alteration of the original Dallas Police Department motorcade deployment plan prevented the use of maximum possible security precautions. Surprisingly, the security measure used in the prior motorcades during the same Texas visit shows that the deployment of motorcycles in Dallas by the Secret Service may have been uniquely insecure.”

This is born out by what occurred only the day before in Houston, as Palamara notes the following in a list of “anomalies” in video clips of the Dallas trip:

“Houston motorcade clip from 11/21/63- shows JFK's limo surrounded by approx. 18 motorcycles !”

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/Network%20Anomolies.htm

Others can see what they want in all this, but what I see in that lonely limo crawling down Elm Street with nothing but wide open space in front and to either side is security stripping about as flagrant as it gets.

Ron

[Marcel Dehaeseleer]

Posted here by error!

This post refers to thread Zf318ls (page3)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Gentlemen,

I would like to draw your attention on a very important characteristic of the B&H 414PD camera.

The shutter speed!

This one was very low!

It was only equal to 1/35 of a second!!!

By taking account of this very long duration between the opening and shutting of the shutter, it is obvious that the general sharpness between the static bystanders in the background and the Limo in the foreground, and this in several Z-frames, represents an absolute technical impossibility.

The best examples being Zf-303, Zf-305, Zf-307, Zf-309!!!

Edited July 4, 2005 by Marcel Dehaeseleer

[Tim Gratz]

Ron, re your most recent post, I do agree, of course, that the issue of security stripping is very important.

However, if the plans of the conspirators were to shoot bullets into the open limousine (which they obviously were) how would motorcycles surrounding the vehicle have interfered with that plan in any way? Motorcycles might have interfered with an assassin shooting at point blank range from the street but no one has suggested that happened.

The only possibility I can think of is that the conspirators were trying to prevent innocent DPD officers from being killed or wounded in the cross-fire.

The other thing I can say WITH CERTAINTY (having seen the photos) is when JFK toured Key West (which had a lot more Cuban exiles than Texas (still has a very high percentage)) less than a month after resolution of the Cuban missile crisis, there were no motorcycle officers on the side of the open convertible in which he was riding. And he made a regular left turn from Duval Street (the main street in downtown Key West) into the street leading to the Key West Naval Base. Nor was anything done to secure the buildings.

And on a previous thread we posted photos of many other JFK motorcades that had no motorcycled officers flanking JFK's open car.

So Dallas was hardly unique.

[Tim Gratz]

Pat wrote:

Is it unreasonable to speculate that one of the local SS "invited" the WHD out for the evening? Is it a coincidence the bar they went to was owned by a pal of Ruby's? Did Ruby's friendship with the DPD extend to the local SS? Could not getting the security detail hammered have been part of the plan? I believe these are valid questions, and ones that should be answered, before we convince ourselves that there was nothing suspicious about the SS' behavior in Dealey.

Pat, part of the plan may have been to get the Secret Service agents tired (hung over even) and their behaviour was certainly irresponsible in staying out all night, but that does not mean, of course, that those SS agents were part of the plot. Their carousing could have been effectuated by one or two inside men--perhaps friends of Jack, as you suggest.

Does anyone know the specific SS agents who were involved in the incident?

Finally, I suspect many bar owners in Dallas were friends of Ruby, who was apparently a very "friendly" guy.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Larry Hancock]

Pat, you might want to post on Lancer or drop Deb a note; she and I had been chasing after the question of who escorted or pointed the SS guys to the club, I had speculated that it was somebody who could be connected to Ruby. However a year or so agp she came across a new book by a Dallas newspaper journalist and he described exactly how he got into a dialog with some SS agents after their arrival in Forth Worth and they began hitting him up for a local place that would still be open. My memory is vague but I think that possibly they even mentioned that particular club, possibly from conversation with some of the locals. The newspaper guy called over and got the manager and asked him if he would stay open late to entertain the agents and he said he would. Debra later interviewed him and he did describe that call. I wish I could give you the name but I'm sure Debra will remember it.

-- Larry

I totally agree with Al's basic point.  It's highly likely that the White House Detail was not knowingly involved in the conspiracy.  It's highly likely that Greer's behavior was innocent.  What I'm stretching for here, and seeming to find some confirmation, is that their behavior might not be by chance.  That is, that some outside factors were put into play in order to get them to fall down on the job.

Admittedly, I have not researched this at all. I'm away from my books and am just throwing out ideas.  (Thank you Ron for posting Greer's testimony, BTW).  I believe Chief Curry's car had pulled over and was trying to get those men off of the bridge.  I remember reading that somewhere.  I wonder if Greer didn't see that and fail to increase his speed as a result.  I'm trying to remember who had the car pulled over.  Was it Lawson?  Wasn't Lawson also the man who planned the route?  We know the WHD went out drinking the night before--were they accompanied by any of the local SS?  Would not these men know the "cool" dives? Is it unreasonable to speculate that one of the local SS "invited" the WHD out for the evening?  Is it a coincidence the bar they went to was owned by a pal of Ruby's?  Did Ruby's friendship with the DPD extend to the local SS? Could not getting the security detail hammered have been part of the plan?  I believe these are valid questions, and ones that should be answered, before we convince ourselves that there was nothing suspicious about the SS' behavior in Dealey.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ron Ecker]

Larry,

According to Mike Cochran of the Associated Press, it was "Bob Schieffer and some other local guys" who "guided the Secret Service and everybody over to The Cellar" (President Kennedy Has Been Shot, p. 7). Schieffer, now with CBS News, was night police reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram at the time.

Ron

[Tim Gratz]

So it must have been a Schieffer and Rather plot!

[Bill Miller]

I totally agree with Al's basic point. It's highly likely that the White House Detail was not knowingly involved in the conspiracy. It's highly likely that Greer's behavior was innocent. What I'm stretching for here, and seeming to find some confirmation, is that their behavior might not be by chance. That is, that some outside factors were put into play in order to get them to fall down on the job.

I don't think too many people would be better qualified to discuss the SS and their actions than Al for he has assisted on such Presidential details. Greer first of all may not have realized that the first sound was a gunshot. Neither he or Kellerman seemed to have realized what was happening until around the time of the fatal shot. Once it was realized that shots are being fired - Greer had to wonder if they are coming from the rear or the front. The men on the overpass were probably little more than silhouettes because of the placement of the sun and the angle of the street. I suspect that this hindered Greer's decision on what to do and in those couple of seconds JFK lost his life. At the same time Greer and Kellerman came within inches of losing their own lives when the last flury of shots came into the limo.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Bill Miller

[Ron Ecker]

Bill or anyone,

Why would there be a flurry of shots after JFK was obviously dead? This flurry apparently included the Badgeman firing. Was it to make sure the world understood that this was a team of shooters (compliments of Havana)? One thing we can be sure of, it was not done to frame a lone gunman.

Ron