Echoes

[Bill Charleston]

The FBI said that witness testimony on what they heard was not reliable due to echoes.

Does anybody have a brief history on WHEN this excuse was first used?

Thanks

Bill

[John Geraghty]

I believe that Mary Moorman was told that what she heard were echoes when questioned by the FBI straight after the assassination.

I assume you mean during the official investigation though.

John

[John Dolva]

I read a comprehensive report by I believe a DPD person with regards to the dictabelt analysis, (for the moment the link eludes me), In it he focused on the locations and actions of various Police department personell. He also discussed the sounds that people heard, and described various structures that may produce echoes to explain witness reports. I think I found it while looking at records at lancer or assassination research, but until I come across it again, perhaps someone else has also seen it.

John

[Jack White]

I was in Dealey Plaza during the filming of JFK. Many guns were

fired repeatedly. There were NO ECHOES...just loud reverbrations.

It was easy to determine where the shots were coming from.

Of course we had the advantage of knowing where the shots

were being fired from (the knoll).

Jack

[Bill Charleston]

I believe that Mary Moorman was told that what she heard were echoes when questioned by the FBI straight after the assassination.

Thanks, I found a good description not of Moorman but from a Jean Hill speech in 1991:

They asked me what I had seen, and it became clear that they knew what I had seen. They asked me how many shots I had heard and I told them four to six. And they said, "No, you didn't. There were three shots. We have three bullets and that's all we're going to commit to now." I said, "Well, I know what I heard," and they told me, "What you heard were echoes. You would be very wise to keep your mouth shut." Well, I guess I've never been that wise. I know the difference between firecrackers, echoes, and gunshots. I'm the daughter of a game ranger, and my father took me shooting all my life.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgrassyN.htm

So the questioners of Jean Hill used the excuse of echoes shortly (within hours) after the assassination when they had to explain her hearing 4-6 shots with only 3 shots from the TSBD.

[Pat Speer]

Ironically, Jean Hill may have heard echoes. She was in the middle of the Plaza. What COMPLETELY DISPROVES the lone-nut theory is that more than half of the witnesses directly beneath the sniper's nest heard shots from the west end of the Plaza. The HSCA ran tests on how shots were heard in Dealey and found the echo excuse for these witnesses was completely bogus. As Jack said, echoes were easily distinguishable. There was a loud noise from that area. The HSCA got that part right. It might not have been shots. It probably didn't come from behind the stockade fence. But something happened down there and it wasn't done by Oswald.

[Bill Charleston]

It probably didn't come from behind the stockade fence.

Something DID happen down there, I think (almost) all of us agree. With several witnesses seeing "smoke" and other suspicious activity, why don't you think it was from behind the fence?

It might not have been shots

Why would it not be a shot? Is there any reason to "guess" anything else?

By the way I asked this question knowing that the echo hypothesis was bogus, I wanted to understand it's history. It could have been brainstorming by the questioner as he was trying to "convince" Jean Hill that she didn't hear 4-6 shots.

[Al Carrier]

I was in Dealey Plaza during the filming of JFK. Many guns were

fired repeatedly. There were NO ECHOES...just loud reverbrations.

It was easy to determine where the shots were coming from.

Of course we had the advantage of knowing where the shots

were being fired from (the knoll).

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack,

With all due respect, would you care to comment on the difference between echoes and reverbrations. I believe the fix of where the testing shot origins played a great deal here and those were too limited to begin with.

Al

[Jack White]

I was in Dealey Plaza during the filming of JFK. Many guns were

fired repeatedly. There were NO ECHOES...just loud reverbrations.

It was easy to determine where the shots were coming from.

Of course we had the advantage of knowing where the shots

were being fired from (the knoll).

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack,

With all due respect, would you care to comment on the difference between echoes and reverbrations. I believe the fix of where the testing shot origins played a great deal here and those were too limited to begin with.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is easy, Al. An echo is a duplication of the original noise but not as loud,

and a moment later. If I shout HELLO and a moment later hear a distinct "hello",

that is an echo. This happens when there are only a FEW reflective surfaces.

In Dealey Plaza there are maybe a hundred or so reflective surfaces, all

close to each other. Each produces its own echo "hello" VERY CLOSE TOGETHER,

with NONE HEARD DISTINCTLY, but bundled together. This produces a long

staccato rumbling called a REVERBERATION in which no SINGLE reproduction

of the original HELLO can be distinguished.

Jack

Edited July 4, 2005 by Jack White

[Al Carrier]

I was in Dealey Plaza during the filming of JFK. Many guns were

fired repeatedly. There were NO ECHOES...just loud reverbrations.

It was easy to determine where the shots were coming from.

Of course we had the advantage of knowing where the shots

were being fired from (the knoll).

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack,

With all due respect, would you care to comment on the difference between echoes and reverbrations. I believe the fix of where the testing shot origins played a great deal here and those were too limited to begin with.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is easy, Al. An echo is a duplication of the original noise but not as loud,

and a moment later. If I shout HELLO and a moment later hear a distinct "hello",

that is an echo. This happens when there are only a FEW reflective surfaces.

In Dealey Plaza there are maybe a hundred or so reflective surfaces, all

close to each other. Each produces its own echo "hello" VERY CLOSE TOGETHER,

with NONE HEARD DISTINCTLY, but bundled together. This produces a long

staccato rumbling called a REVERBERATION in which no SINGLE reproduction

of the original HELLO can be distinguished.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack,

Thanks for the Webster's definition, but let's put it into perspective with not only the terrain of DP but also the witness recall. Place yourself within the plaza watching the motorcade and focusing on it. Volley's ring out within six to eight seconds and you are required to determine how many and direction of the shot origin. Would the muzzle blast plust bullet bow shockwave have an effect on your recall? Would your positioning in the plaza have an effect on your recall as to how many and where the shots originated from. If this was set up for that purpose, wouldn't DP be an ideal location for such confusion? Critical incident stress recall is complex enough, and the sharpness of the report would be hard to differentiate through such traumatic recall.

Al

[Jack White]

Taken by surprise, many with normal hearing might be confused as to

EXACT direction of a single shot from a single location...BUT THEY

WOULD HAVE NO TROUBLE WITH THE GENERAL DIRECTION, since

the shot is much LOUDER than the reverberations. Echos would

not influence this.

That said, I (and most of us) believe there were MULTIPLE SHOTS.

This would cause GREAT CONFUSION, since the proximity of an

earwitness to various shots would cause disagreement. Those

closest to the knoll would say shots came from the knoll. Those

closest to the TSBD would say shots came from there. Elsewhere

in the Plaza equidistant from the knoll and depository specificity

would be impossible...just a direction, like north.

Complicating the matter would be if any of the bullets were supersonic.

Loudness of the "crack" of the supersonic bullet would depend on the

proximity of the earwitness to the bullet, and might give a false impression

of direction, since depending on distances, the "crack" might be much

louder than the muzzle blast.

Oliver Stone used marksmen from the LAPD firing a .45 handgun

with blanks. I was standing out of camera range perhaps 150 feet

away. The gun blast was EXTREMELY LOUD. I knew the exact

direction it came from. I heard NO DISTINCT ECHOS, just a

reverberation noise following the shot. If Stone had shot from

several directions, I am not sure I could have determined the

origin of other shots.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Taken by surprise, many with normal hearing might be confused as to

EXACT direction of a single shot from a single location...BUT THEY

WOULD HAVE NO TROUBLE WITH THE GENERAL DIRECTION, since

the shot is much LOUDER than the reverberations. Echos would

not influence this.

Oliver Stone used marksmen from the LAPD firing a .45 handgun

with blanks. I was standing out of camera range perhaps 150 feet

away. The gun blast was EXTREMELY LOUD. I knew the exact

direction it came from. I heard NO DISTINCT ECHOS, just a

reverberation noise following the shot. If Stone had shot from

several directions, I am not sure I could have determined the

origin of other shots.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To add to what has already been said ... Groden told me that people at one end of the Plaza didn't hear shots from the other end and visa-versa.

[Lee Forman]

Ironically, Jean Hill may have heard echoes. She was in the middle of the Plaza. What COMPLETELY DISPROVES the lone-nut theory is that more than half of the witnesses directly beneath the sniper's nest heard shots from the west end of the Plaza. The HSCA ran tests on how shots were heard in Dealey and found the echo excuse for these witnesses was completely bogus.  As Jack said, echoes were easily distinguishable.  There was a loud noise from that area.  The HSCA got that part right. It might not have been shots.  It probably didn't come from behind the stockade fence.  But something happened down there and it wasn't done by Oswald.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jean Hill's testimony, as per the Warren Report Exhibit, has a very large area denoted as to where she thought she heard shots coming from - thanks to Specter's diagram.

Bill Newman was confused as to whether the shots were coming from behind him to his left or his right.

Emmett Hudson had a shot coming from behind him and over his head.

Mary Woodward had the 'ear-shattering' noise coming from behind her and a little bit to the right.

Moorman Polaroid - GKS [Grass Knoll Shooter] location [credit to Robin Unger for jointly working to find this guy] and Croft - PGS [Pergola Garden Shooter] locations.

IMO shots fired alternately from these 2 sources, in addition to perhaps the DalTex and TSBD, would cause some significant confusion about the origination of the shots.

Just speculating - PGS for Kennedy Throat and Occiput. GKS for Connally Chest? and Kennedy Temple.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Moorman Polaroid - GKS [Grass Knoll Shooter] location [credit to Robin Unger for jointly working to find this guy] and Croft - PGS [Pergola Garden Shooter] locations.

About the Croft photo ... the line of sight to Croft's camera is there, but Kennedy could not have been seen from the location of your red box. The people standing along Elm Street would have hid JFK from view.

[Lee Forman]

Moorman Polaroid - GKS [Grass Knoll Shooter] location [credit to Robin Unger for jointly working to find this guy] and Croft - PGS [Pergola Garden Shooter] locations.

About the Croft photo ... the line of sight to Croft's camera is there, but Kennedy could not have been seen from the location of your red box. The people standing along Elm Street would have hid JFK from view.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is there anyone [other than a possible ID on F. Lee Mudd?] to ask? Seems a very interesting coincidence that none of the folks behind or in front of the wall, as seen in Croft, have ever been identified.

I'd want to take a photo from that location with people standing on the sidewalk to be sure, but I'm thinking it's feasible.

- lee