Limousine stopped?

[John Dolva]

David, its probably reasonable to assume that it is a standard spool length that Zapruder used, (any reasons to think otherwise?) Does anyone have any idea of what happened to the pre motorcycles-motorcade footage? Does it still exist.

There is a general increase in the velocity as calculated by me over the 12 farmes I've so far processed. I'll continue and then in another second or so if this trend continues I'll recheck the frame rate calculations at different velocity.

I would like an evaluation of error margins involved here, it would help in knowing where approximations are suitable, as it is I'm avoiding any approximations.

I see I might need to load a worksheet program to automate the calculations as at present the calculating itself is hazardous as far as errors are concerned. anyway, more later.

I still can't find an exact width measurement of the 'rollbar' between the connallys and the ss men. If anyone has one or knows where it is , pls post.

John

Edited July 9, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

This is still not making sense to me , but at least it seems to not make sense in a consistent way. I've remeasured travels, plus arrived at a more precise bar width (hence pixel width) and keep coming up with speeds that indicate every other frame is missing, or speeds that are twice that of FBI estimate. So, I'll try to get to a mathematician at one of the unis around here and have a chat. Hopefully by this evening it'll be clearer to me and I'll post less confused results. Meantime my appeal for someone to analyse/verify/debunk all this stands.

John

[Tim Gratz]

There is interesting commentary on whether Greer braked the limousine in the "JFK Chronology" by Ira David Wood II. On another topic I posted the link to the Wood chronology, which is, in my opinion, quite good.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I believe I am right in saying that in a court of Law, Any Film/photographic evidence is regarded as secondary to solid eyewitness testimony. And is usually used to butress such evidence,not refute it. (please correct me if I am wrong on this) Yet here the Z film, which contradicts the ten best placed eyewitnesess, is given higher evidentiary status. Strange!!

[John Dolva]

I believe I am right in saying that in a court of Law, Any Film/photographic evidence is regarded as secondary to solid eyewitness testimony. And is usually used to butress such evidence,not refute it. (please correct me if I am wrong on this) Yet here the Z film, which contradicts the ten best placed eyewitnesess, is given higher evidentiary status. Strange!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stephen,

I'm personally don't know whether as you say what is given more weight in a case. My personal interests have a lot to do with imagery, hence my somewhat fuzzy historical research, but thats just me. Others are very good at things like gathering information and presenting it logically as an essay for example, I'm not. My contribution , however significant it may be in the grand scheme of things, is more likely to be in graphics. Whatever the outcome of any of this may be, may or may not as you say butress other evidence. Part of my interests are to develop accepted standards, techniques (if possible) to use in photo analysis. It's likely to pursue threads of thought that may come to naught, but if I don't I wont know. Also though possibly irrelevant, it may spawn other threads that will be relevant. I think that a collective effort on a broad front is a good approach. This is "my kind of thing". Not higher, and in my opinion , not necessarily lower.

John

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I believe I am right in saying that in a court of Law, Any Film/photographic evidence is regarded as secondary to solid eyewitness testimony. And is usually used to butress such evidence,not refute it. (please correct me if I am wrong on this) Yet here the Z film, which contradicts the ten best placed eyewitnesess, is given higher evidentiary status. Strange!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stephen,

I'm personally don't know whether as you say what is given more weight in a case. My personal interests have a lot to do with imagery, hence my somewhat fuzzy historical research, but thats just me. Others are very good at things like gathering information and presenting it logically as an essay for example, I'm not. My contribution , however significant it may be in the grand scheme of things, is more likely to be in graphics. Whatever the outcome of any of this may be, may or may not as you say butress other evidence. Part of my interests are to develop accepted standards, techniques (if possible) to use in photo analysis. It's likely to pursue threads of thought that may come to naught, but if I don't I wont know. Also though possibly irrelevant, it may spawn other threads that will be relevant. I think that a collective effort on a broad front is a good approach. This is "my kind of thing". Not higher, and in my opinion , not necessarily lower.

John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, what I know about photo analysis you could get on the back of a stamp, and still have room to write your shopping list. So carry on with your fuzzy historical research, its the only way i'll learn. My post was'nt to deride such work,just to question why apparantly, good eyewitness testimony is so downplayed in this case.

[John Dolva]

Stephen, I agree, it's a thread largely coloured by my input, there is little else posted here, my basic question as to whether or not speed of movement of objects in a single photo can be reliably determined by measuring characteristics of such movements on a single frame perhaps is not really about eyewitness statements. I understand that you may think I feel that you were deriding me, my ideas, but I don't. Thats understandable considering how readily I react to accusations that I feel are unfounded. But I learn from those experiences.

it's all good, John D.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

John

I should probably start a seperate thread about eyewitnesess versus Z film. Just for the record, do you believe part or all of Zapruder is faked? Steve.

[John Dolva]

John

I should probably start a seperate thread about eyewitnesess versus Z film. Just for the record, do you believe part or all of Zapruder is faked?  Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm.. Good question Stephen, I believe that it is not faked. I don't know if it is faked (partly or wholly). Hopefully by continuing an evaluation of it I can say 'I know" at some point. I try to have an open mind. I find some of the results I'm getting startling but as I have not in place an error analysis, I don't know what it means. Some things I see are pushing me towards the view that with all its faults as a piece of plastic, it's genuine, some indicate possible attempt to deface in order to hide something, personally I find the idea of the whole thing being a fake pretty far out, but like I said I try to keep an open mind. Some things I'm discovering I'm very hesitant to reveal at this stage as the consequences are possibly far reaching, so I try to stick to the things that are less fanciful. If you were to start a thread on eywitness versus zfilm I'd consider that a very good thing and would hope to contribute.

John D.

[Mark Knight]

John, I've been following this thread without commenting because I haven't been able to add anything useful. But I believe your approach is rational and logical, and I find your conclusions to this point quite interesting. I believe that you probably are correct, that either the speed of the film has been estimated incorrectly [iMO, the most likely scenario] or that every other frame is missing [less likely, IMO, but still a possibility].

For the sake of discovering the truth, I would encourage you to continue your work in this direction...because I believe that it will eventually bear fruit. Don't get discouraged just because no one is commenting upon occasion; it may simply be a case that no one can yet add anything of value to what you've discovered, as was the case with me.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Mark Knight

[Mark Stapleton]

John,

I concur fully with Mark K's post. While I haven't fully understood the technical aspects of your posts, I believe it's a worthwhile path to pursue. The possibility of some frames being missing from the Z film raises a raft of new questions and could provide answers to others. I applaud your energenic pursuit of answers.

p.s. I hope we get to see that list of DCC members. Very interesting reading, IMO.

[John Dolva]

Thank you, most heartening. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself . I hope that if something concrete comes of it that it will be seen as an 'open source' project. If nothing else a further reason to argue a public release of best quality material to researchers. Also as a technique even if the zfilm is fake/dubious the technique need not be so, and could be applied to any single frame photo, perhaps the more blurred the better, which probably forms a large body of work otherwise ignored.

mmmm yes, I can't help thinking that somewhere in the early images the assassin is caught in the lens, similarly in the names there at the time, in the documents of the DCC, CAA etc.

John

edit:: there are a few different ways to look at the relationship between the two 'blurs', (one on stationary background, one on moving Limo), I have gotten results of 24 mph (focusing on the 313 frame now), 16.7 mph, 6.2 mph and about 1 mph, the 16 and 6 indicate frame # inconsistency, the other 2 hmm wierd, 24 can be ruled out I think, 1 could indicate "almost" stopped. The thinking in which way to evaluate the difference of 'blur' (and angle diff. of blur) and and working out a way of maximising accuracy in a consistent way while keeping track of error margins are issues.

Edited July 11, 2005 by John Dolva

[David G. Healy]

John Dolva wrote:

Thank you, most heartening. I was beginning to wonder if I was just talking to myself . I hope that if something concrete comes of it that it will be seen as an 'open source' project...

[...]

_______

Plod on John, I can assure you, your work is being followed. Most closely, by a few that chose not to post here -- The Z-film is the cornerstone of the entire case regarding the single bullet theory. If the film is proved to be a fake, fraud, or whatever one wants to call it - history books will need rewritting...

[Jack White]

I suggest that John read TGZFH to avoid covering material

which has already been covered in great detail.

Jack

[Robin Unger]

David, its probably reasonable to assume that it is a standard spool length that Zapruder used, (any reasons to think otherwise?) Does anyone have any idea of what happened to the pre motorcycles-motorcade footage? Does it still exist.

There is a general increase in the velocity as calculated by me over the 12 farmes I've so far processed. I'll continue and then in another second or so if this trend continues I'll recheck the frame rate calculations at different velocity.

I would like an evaluation of error margins involved here, it would help in knowing where approximations are suitable, as it is I'm avoiding any approximations.

I see I might need to load a worksheet program to automate the calculations as at present the calculating itself is hazardous as far as errors are concerned. anyway, more later.

I still can't find an exact width measurement of the 'rollbar' between the connallys and the ss men. If anyone has one or knows where it is , pls post.

John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep going John.

I don't understand the Math behind your calculations, but i can follow what you are trying to do.

Hope this helps.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol6_0028b.htm