Ron Ecker Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Couldn't the withdrawal of normal security be part of the last minute change of plan ? Mark, The SS-dictated change in the DPD's motorcycle plan, removing motorcycles from the front and sides, was made in a meeting of the SS and DPD on the night of 11/21. That means whichever of the three SS agents at the meeting imposed this change was preparing on 11/21 for the real thing, not a staged attempt. (Of the three agents present, David Grant was the last to arrive in Dallas, having worked the Florida trip.) Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Great photos as always from James, and they certainly make the point.I have a photo I am unable to post of JFK and Sen. Smathers in an open convertible in Miami on Monday, November 18, 1963. The car is being swarmed by enthusiatic supporters. No sign whatsoever of security. Wish I could post it. It is a great shot. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is this the one, Tim? That looks like William Greer positioned just behind the woman wearing the white scarf. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Great! That is the one to which I was refering, James! Great photo, huh? Thanks as always, James! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Carrier Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Great! That is the one to which I was refering, James!Great photo, huh? Thanks as always, James! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim,James, Ron and all, Ih ave posted several times here and on Lancer on the "flying wedge" motorcycle escort alignment and published an article where I challenged trained and experienced motorcycle officers on staging an appropriate escort and they diagramed the flying wedge. You can pick out still from Miami, Tampa, etc that show inconsistencies in this pattern of protection, and I have posted this pattern in the Miami, Tampa and Berlin motorcades of fall of '63. So where does the breakdown come? It comes in when the photos were shot and how the stills show the flying wedge in action. The flying wedge will utilize nine motorcycle outriders, five forming a frontal wedge and four riding offset to the rear. These motorcycle officers do not hold their position but are placed in this position in order to respond to closing in of crowds and assistance at advance intersections when needed. The flying wedge varies in its pattern throughout the motorcade route. The problem in Dallas was that the flying wedge was never established from Love Field. The frontal wedge was never formed and the frontal five outriders took a position in front of the lead car in a diaginal position, which would not allow for them to react to the immediacy of threat close to the limo, or to widen the crowd as it closed it. This is why Greer had to ride with his door open partially on Main to divert the crowds away from the limo. The rear cyclists were held back beyond the sides of the limo and closer to the SS follow-up car than the limo itself. Now the purpose of the flying wedge is not to create an obstruction to the protected party from long range threat, but to create an inner bubble of security for close range threats. We see after the fact in Dallas how it opened the President up to threats from long range through uninhibited view of the target. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Great post, Al! Thanks for sharing your wisdom and training in this important matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stapleton Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Great photos as always from James, and they certainly make the point.I have a photo I am unable to post of JFK and Sen. Smathers in an open convertible in Miami on Monday, November 18, 1963. The car is being swarmed by enthusiatic supporters. No sign whatsoever of security. Wish I could post it. It is a great shot. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is this the one, Tim? That looks like William Greer positioned just behind the woman wearing the white scarf. James <{POST_SNAPBACK}> James, Great photo (as usual). Judging by the way that tree's bending, the olbligatory hurricane is on its way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stapleton Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Couldn't the withdrawal of normal security be part of the last minute change of plan ? Mark, The SS-dictated change in the DPD's motorcycle plan, removing motorcycles from the front and sides, was made in a meeting of the SS and DPD on the night of 11/21. That means whichever of the three SS agents at the meeting imposed this change was preparing on 11/21 for the real thing, not a staged attempt. (Of the three agents present, David Grant was the last to arrive in Dallas, having worked the Florida trip.) Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Ron. You're right of course, although it could be argued that the night of November 21, only 12 hours or so prior to the assassination, still qualifies as a "last minute" change. Others involved at a lower level may still not have been aware of the security withdrawal, unless trained in security protocols. However, the SS agents must have smelt something. This would be a great time to take all the guys down to the bar for a drink, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The question has been raised about how much blood the conspiritors were willing to spill to achieve their objectives, here is a quote from just one of the plots Quote on " We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay, casualty lists, reported in American newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." Quote off. And dont forget these were AMERICAN lives they were talking about. These were serious people who were willing to do what ever it took to fulfill their ambitions,People who already hated Kennedy over the BOP, and a percieved softness on all things Communistic. Would a further betrayal from the despised Kennedy's be one to many to bare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 (edited) Its probably time to bring in Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell,both men were fired by Kennedy over the BOP fiasco. This was because since Eisenhowers time, the CIA had over all responsibility for Cuban affairs. How much they actually knew about the JCS plans is in dispute,what is not is that they payed the price, and had every reason to hate the Kennedy's.It more and more seems to me that the assassination was about settling scores,both with JFK and Castro. Edited July 13, 2005 by Stephen Turner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 And why was Eisenhower not assassinated by Sherman Adams? Or Richard Nixon by John Dean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 And why was Eisenhower not assassinated by Sherman Adams?Or Richard Nixon by John Dean? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Tim,not sure I understand the question,are you saying that because the above events did not occur, that my scenario could'nt have happened. What are you baseing this belief on. I freely admit i'm speculating, but arnt we all. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 (edited) That's why I like the thread "Pure Speculation". My point was of course that JFK would have been the first Pres killed by an executive he had fired. Edited July 13, 2005 by Tim Gratz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 That's why I like the thread "Pure Speculation".My point was of course that JFK would have been the first Pres killed by an executive he had fired. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is correct,but if your offering it up as a reason why Dulles, and Bissell could not/ would not, be part of an assassination attempt on JFK then we need to see the underpinning logic behind your thinking. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Stephen, anything is POSSIBLE, of course, which is why your scenario belongs on the "pure speculation" thread. John ought to go through the Forum and transfer all the scenarios for which there is no evidence to that thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 John ought to go through the Forum and transfer all the scenarios for which there is no evidence to that thread! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Which would leave us with what Tim? Here is a powerful group of men, Lansdale, Lemnitzer & the JCS, Dulles, Bissell & cabell, all with good reason to hate Kennedy, and all in a position to do something about it. MOTIVE, Kennedy had humiliated them all, more than that, they felt he was selling the country, by his soft stance on communism.These people consider themselves super patriots,they think Kennedy is unfit to hold office, they decide to do something about it.And more than that, if the right patsy can be manipulated into holding the gun, maybe, just maybe, Castro will follow Kennedy into history. The irony of the situation could not have been lost on them. And they had MEANS and OPPORTUNITY by the bucket full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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