Operation Northwoods

[Justin Martell]

John ought to go through the Forum and transfer all the scenarios for which there is no evidence to that thread!

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Which would leave us with what Tim?

Here is a powerful group of men, Lansdale, Lemnitzer & the JCS, Dulles, Bissell & cabell, all with good reason to hate Kennedy, and all in a position to do something about it. MOTIVE, Kennedy had humiliated them all, more than that, they felt he was selling the country, by his soft stance on communism.These people consider themselves super patriots,they think Kennedy is unfit to hold office, they decide to do something about it.And more than that, if the right patsy can be manipulated into holding the gun, maybe, just maybe, Castro will follow Kennedy into history.

The irony of the situation could not have been lost on them. And they had MEANS and OPPORTUNITY by the bucket full.

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The first thing that should be put in the "pure speculation" thread is the Castro did it theory via Tim Gratz. Tim you are like a punch drunk fighter stepping back through the ropes after just being knocked through them. You have CONSTANTLY had your theory smacked around by the other members and yet you have the nerve to criticize others people posts due to speculation?

[Pat Speer]

The question has been raised about how much blood the conspiritors were willing to spill to achieve their objectives, here is a quote from just one of the plots

Quote on " We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay, casualty lists, reported in American newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." Quote off.

And dont forget these were AMERICAN lives they were talking about. These were serious people who were willing to do what ever it took to fulfill their ambitions,People who already hated Kennedy over the BOP, and a percieved softness on all things Communistic. Would a further betrayal from the despised Kennedy's be one to many to bare.

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Stephen, perhaps I need to reread the Northwoods material, but I interpreted this as being a fake casualty list. If they were willing to kill people on a ship, why go to such lengths to fake a plane crash?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

The question has been raised about how much blood the conspiritors were willing to spill to achieve their objectives, here is a quote from just one of the plots

Quote on " We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay, casualty lists, reported in American newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." Quote off.

And dont forget these were AMERICAN lives they were talking about. These were serious people who were willing to do what ever it took to fulfill their ambitions,People who already hated Kennedy over the BOP, and a percieved softness on all things Communistic. Would a further betrayal from the despised Kennedy's be one to many to bare.

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Stephen, perhaps I need to reread the Northwoods material, but I interpreted this as being a fake casualty list. If they were willing to kill people on a ship, why go to such lengths to fake a plane crash?

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Pat, the information I have says nothing about fake casualty's in this instance. The plans seem to be a pick and mix, some like the plane crash fake, others like the Guantanamo incident, and the terrorism in Washington & Miami to be played for real. I will post all my info later then you can judge for yourself. I will admit the langauge used is not the clearest, possibly on purpose. Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Lemnitzer, ordered the destuction of all files pertaining to Northwoods. So as at least one copy escaped, to surface years later, are we looking at a whistle-blower, or a screw up.

[Ron Ecker]

"3. A 'Remember the Maine' incident could be arranged in several forms.

a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.

b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. . . . Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

Fake casualties are suggested only under option "b." It is implicit in option "a" that U.S. casualties would be real.

On Lemnitzer destroying all the files, Northwoods was presented in memo form from Lemnitzer to McNamara, so Lemnitzer couldn't then destroy it.

Ron

[Guest Stephen Turner]

On Lemnitzer destroying all the files, Northwoods was presented in memo form from Lemnitzer to McNamara, so Lemnitzer couldn't then destroy it.

Ron

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Thanks for clearing that up Ron, I've probably misunderstood the information I have. Guess I screwed up

[Ron Ecker]

Stephen,

I looked in James Bamford's "Body of Secrets," and he says on page 88 that "Lemnitzer may have thought that all copies of the relevant documents had been destroyed." That would have to mean all JCS copies, since he couldn't destroy what he sent to McNamara.

BTW I have not seen the term Operation Northwoods actually used in government documents. Bamford simply says that was the code name. But the memo from Lemnitzer to McNamara proposing the operation refers only to "the Cuba Project." That's the same term used in Operation Mongoose documents, instead of "Mongoose." Apparently these code names were simply not to be used in documents.

Ron

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Ron, thanks again, I will avail myself of mr Bamfords book

So both Northwoods, and Mongoose are simply known as the Cuba project, interesting. Im going to do some further research on Lemnitzer, he's a strange individual to say the least,in fact, to cut to the chase, cica 63 he seems barking mad.

[Mark Stapleton]

Ron, thanks again, I will avail myself of mr Bamfords book

So both Northwoods, and Mongoose are simply known as the Cuba project, interesting. Im going to do some further research on Lemnitzer, he's a strange individual to say the least,in fact, to cut to the chase, cica 63 he seems barking mad.

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Steve,

FWIW, I haven't scratched Lemnitzer off either. There's no reason why a man of his power and influence couldn't pull strings after leaving office. In fact, it could be argued that this makes his involvement more likely.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Ron, thanks again, I will avail myself of mr Bamfords book

So both Northwoods, and Mongoose are simply known as the Cuba project, interesting. Im going to do some further research on Lemnitzer, he's a strange individual to say the least,in fact, to cut to the chase, cica 63 he seems barking mad.

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Steve,

FWIW, I haven't scratched Lemnitzer off either. There's no reason why a man of his power and influence couldn't pull strings after leaving office. In fact, it could be argued that this makes his involvement more likely.

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Hi Mark, be careful, thats pure speculation i can only imagine his anger when RFK pulled the plug on Cuban ops,and this after BOP, now put him, and Lansdale, with Bisell and Dulles, chuck in Cabell,and you've got some very powerful people mighty P****d off with all things Kennedy. And I agree, it makes no difference whether they still hold office or not,these guys could make things happen. Steve.

[Pat Speer]

Now hold on guys, Lemnitzer was appointed by Ford to serve on the Rockefeller Commission, so he must have been on the side of truth and justice. Right..

[Mark Stapleton]

C Douglas Dillon was also on the Rockefeller Commission. According to Tim, he's the man who would have "laid down his life" for his friend, JFK. Sure he would have, Tim. Sure.

Back to Lemnitzer, he is easily the most obscure of the former Joint Chiefs. Except for his well known desire to oust Castro and his hatred for JFK's tendency to find negotiated settlements to foreign policy problems, all we know is that JFK didn't renew Lemnitzer's Chairmanship of the JCS in 1962 and he left to become chief of European operations.

A biography was in written in 1997 by L James Binder entitled "Lyman Louis Lemnitzer--A Soldier for his time". I haven't read it but from the reviews I've read, it draws mainly on the official historical archives, while saying very little about the how and why of the man behind the soldier. If anyone can fill in some of the blank spaces about this obscure individual, it would be greatly appreciated.

Edited August 4, 2005 by Mark Stapleton

[James Richards]

If anyone can fill in some of the blank spaces about this obscure individual, it would be greatly appreciated. (Mark Stapleton)

Hi Mark,

Lemnitzer was a big fan of Audrey Hepburn.

James

[Pat Speer]

Audrey Hepburn was in Charade with Cary Grant. Grant played a government agent on the trail of some rogue OSS officers after some stolen WW2 gold. In the film he is stationed in Paris and uses a multitude of false names... So I'm wondering... was Cary Grant QJ/WIN? And was Audrey Hepburn working for Lemnitzer as his control agent?

By golly, James, I think you've cracked the case.

[Mark Stapleton]

If anyone can fill in some of the blank spaces about this obscure individual, it would be greatly appreciated. (Mark Stapleton)

Hi Mark,

Lemnitzer was a big fan of Audrey Hepburn. 

James

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James,

Thanks for that. Not exactly the side of Lem's personality I was interested in exploring, but a great photo all the same . Any more?