Wind in the Plaza

[John Dolva]

I'm undertaking a study to see what wind conditions were like in Dealey Plaza noonish, 22 11 1963. There are the records of conditions at love field. Plus a number of verbal descriptions. There are also indicators from clothing and flags in the various images of the day. It's probably unreasonable to expect (and I haven't found any) 'professional' estimates or measurements from the plaza proper. If someone knows any , pls post. John D

[Tim Gratz]

John, the issue of the direction of the wind in Dealey Plaza is discussed in the article I posted authored by Robert Harris.

[Adam Wilkinson]

forensics@accuwx.com. There’s an email address for a forensic meteorological service. They might be able to help you out, but there may be a cost involved. I sent an email to the Dallas local weather forecast requesting any information they might have on meteorological events in Dealey Plaza on Nov 22. Hope it helps.

[John Dolva]

John, the issue of the direction of the wind in Dealey Plaza is discussed in the article I posted authored by Robert Harris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, Ive been searching for this article or reference and can't find it. Do you have a link? Adam, thank you, when done I hope to post a map of wind at the plaza (or to contribute to any one elses posted research) supported by as much evidence as I come across Again, as stated on other threads, I have no interest in 'owning' said resource but hope it becomes part of a group of broadly accepted research standards that I found sadly lacking in this field when I started looking into it about 6 months ago. hmmm...having said that, of course whatever findings that do emerge from anyones research need to be under constant review and scrutiny. Once this case goes to court it'd be tragic if it's thrown out on a technicality. JohnD.

[Adam Wilkinson]

I have not yet received a reply, and have also sent an email to www.intellicast.com, requesting information, I will get back to you when I receive a reply from either of them.

[Stephen Roy]

I'm undertaking a study to see what wind conditions were like in Dealey Plaza noonish, 22 11 1963. There are the records of conditions at love field. Plus a number of verbal descriptions. There are also indicators from clothing and flags in the various images of the day. It's probably unreasonable to expect (and I haven't found any)  'professional' estimates or measurements from the plaza proper. If someone knows any , pls post.  John D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a component of USG that keeps old Commerce Department meteorological records, usually from the perspective of places like airports. Finding information specifically about DP may be impossible.

But the wind was a not inconsiderable factor in DP. Several people mentioned it. Mrs. K had to hold her hat during the Main/Houston turn; Several coats can be seen blowing; and some of the post-assassination films show trees waving a bit.

The WC and critics often lock into an inflexible timeline: A sixth-floor TSBD gunman could not have fired between certain frames because his view was blocked by a tree. But the wind might have been strong enough to move the brances of that tree significantly, creating a margin of error of perhaps 10 frames in either direction. This is often not considered in the debate.

[Adam Wilkinson]

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climateresearch.html < try that link

AccuWeather forensics department says they can help but would need a bit more info from you on exactly what you need, and will give you a price estimate, thats if you want to pay for it. Their phone number is 814-235-8626 or email is adams@accuwx.com.

Intellicast recommended The National Climatic Data Center. The link is above.

[Bernice Moore]

Thanks Adam, for all your information.....

B..

[John Dolva]

""Mr. Joseph A. Ball. [Commission counsel]. Was there any breeze that day?

Mr. B. J. Martin. Yes; there was.

Mr. Ball. From what direction?

Mr. Martin. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of Houston onto Elm. (VI, p. 290.)

The weather bureau recorded winds in Dallas on November 1963, as ranging only between 13 knots and 17 knots, which is roughly equal to 15 to 20 miles per hour.

The weather bureau at Love Field data showed winds from the west-northwest gusting up to 20mph.

A strong wind begins to blow into the plaza from the North. Patrolman M. L. Baker rounds the corner

from Main onto Houston and the gust of wind almost unseats him from his two-wheeled motorcycle

which is behind the last press car of the motorcade.

Patrolman M.L. Baker is regaining control of his motorcycle after the strong gust of wind from

the North when he hears the sound of gunfire. He is riding a two-wheeled motorcycle behind the last

press car of the motorcade.""

Thank you Adam. I'm working through the links you have provided. any others much appreciated as well.

As the motorcade reaches the end of main street the flags on the presidential limousine are fluttering strongly in a wind from the east, as it rounds the corner onto houston the flags go limp.

At this corner Mrs K. makes a grab for her hat.

There appear contradictions here. I know from experience that going from a steady wind condition where I brace against a wind into a lull is quite unsettling.

It seems though that broadly a 15 to 20 miles an hour wind was gusting from west north west over the city. Closer to the ground various structures like buildings and streets would create channels directing wind with eddies and dead spots here and there. As far as I understand west ward of the plaza here the land for some time is flat, plain type country. At Dallas downtown the land rises and the larger man made structures start.

[Adam Wilkinson]

The estimated cost for meterological reports for dealey plaza on november 22, between 12 and 1 pm would be between $400 and $500. Let me know if you are still interested and I can give you the link.

[John Dolva]

The estimated cost for meterological reports for dealey plaza on november 22, between 12 and 1 pm would be between $400 and $500. Let me know if you are still interested and I can give you the link.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adam, I'll pass on that for now, but please hold the link in case it becomes possible in the future.

Here are the flag movements past the sign. The car is supposedly doing some 8 miles an hour? The ss flag is fluttering strongly while stripes is in a lee* till near the lamp post when it picks up as well.

*hmm, definitely no pun intended! The flag is not as big a deal in Oz. Apparently a consideration in Oswalds psychological evaluation was a report on the level of his enthusiasm re. saluting the flag in school.

EDIT: there's a frame missing in this sequence, I've been careful in numbering them but may have missed one.

Edited July 31, 2005 by John Dolva

[Adam Wilkinson]

The contacts name is Edward Adams, he can can be contacted by phone at

814-235-8626 or by e-mail at forensics@accuweather.com. Also, the price estimate is in $US. Goodluck, let me know how it goes.

[John Dolva]

Thank you Adam.

Some more wind indications.

The first is just next to the court building. The flags are flying strongly towards the west.

The second set is around zf313. The coats of the two women in white shoes are fluttering in a way to indicate wind from the west. They are standing on a slight slope with their legs apart so their right* leg is straighter than the left which would to some extent determine the shape of the coats. While the flag is fluttering strongly th e car is also moving westward and I suspect the wind at this point is not as strong as up near the intersection of Main and Houston.

edit :: *proper description : their right leg, from their perspective is bent , the left is straight.

the black and white inset in the second image is from a photo taken shortly after the assassination.

Edited August 3, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

Tom, I'm asking you this as you have a lot of detailed information I have not seen previously.

With regards to the flags:

Do you know the weight of the cloth used in these two flags? It seems to me that the stars and stripes is heavier than the SS emblem flag.

also if any one else has this info pls. answer

Edited August 3, 2005 by John Dolva

[David G. Healy]

John,

You've got some interesting work going on here. Do you have a website you can post these images so those of us that would like to see them in full size, might?

also, I can't remember where or when I heard this; DP winds out of the south/southwest at 8-10 mph gusts to 18 mph. Jack White probably knows...

David Healy

Edited August 4, 2005 by David G. Healy