Operation Tumbleweed?

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Robert, I tend to agree although I still rubs me the wrong way. For example Manchester gave a very specific time and description of the Hoover call...along with calls before and after it. I don't know how he would have come up with such a thing out of clear air - but now the call log shows the call he listed before and the one after with the time differences adjusted to eliminate the time for the Hoover call. A Hoover call makes so much sense its hard to imagine it not happening....and there is no other record of anyone seeing Hoover anywhere in DC that evening where he could have met personally with Johnson, Hoover definitely stand out by his apparent absense.

I tend to wonder if DeLoach simple heard Hoover mention having talked to the new President and assumed it was in person.

Beyond that, and my distaste for loose ends, we have another source who in his biography describes being with McCone for that purported security brief first thing in the morning; he states they met Johnson in the hallway and Johnson had no interest in a brief and after a short exchange he left with no dialog. Now if this is true it seems very significant and if not somebody is working very hard at covering up matters of importance like MC that were dicussed.

Not sure that we will ever claify it but for the moment the apparent absence of Hoover in D.C. that evening, the disappearing phone call and Johnson's lack of interest in any national security brief the morning after the assassination sound pretty silly given what one would have thought would be the interests of all the parties involved (Hoover not ususally being bashful about thrusting the Bureau to the fore as one example).

-- Larry

My issue is that Saturday morning Johnson's first query is about Mexico City;  the question then is had Hoover and Johnson discussed Mexico City before?   If not who did brief Johnson and when? 

Larry, I suspect I was unclear and should have simply cut to the chase.  The Hoover-Johnson call came at 10:01 on 11/23/63.  Forty minutes earlier on that same morning, Johnson had been briefed in person by McCone.  The obvious inference is that Johnson learned of the Mexico City nightmare from McCone, as cited by Scott and Beschloss.  I think this resolves the mystery.

Plus did Johnson speak with Hoover on November 22......Manchester says he called him at home,  DeLoach seems to indicate they spoke in person and Johnsons phone log does not support the call Manchester describes (at least now).  

Barring evidence of a phone call on 11/22, DeLoach seems to be correct and that Hoover and Johnson must have spoken in person.

If the two did not talk how did Hoover get the order to take over the investigation and evidence from DPD Friday night?   And are we really expected to think the Hoover just went home from work that night like any normal day?   Or that Johnson called everybody in DC except Hoover?

Again, I suspect DeLoach was correct about an in-person meeting, rather than the phone call that didn't seem to have transpired, based on the extant logs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Robert Howard]

TUMBLEWEED

http://www.maryferre....do?docId=25001

MEMORANDUM FOR: Director

Federal Bureau of Investigation

SUBJECT: TUMBLEWEED

Zeplocage? - R

1. Reference is made to information passed verbally on 19 February 1963 by Mr. Sam Papich regarding the subject of your file # 65-65652.

2. The description of the Soviet Case Officerwhom subject met during his recent visit to Mexico fit quite accurately with that of Valeriy Viadintrovich KOSTIKOV, an attache to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, Consular Office, Visa Section. In addition we have confirmation of the date that KOSTIKOV was involved in an auto accident in Vermorez on 6 January 1963. Following is the descriptive and biographic data we have on KOSTIKOV:

Date of Birth: 17 March 1933

Place of Birth: Moscow, USSR

Wife: Noen Aleksandravon KOSTIKOV (2 March 1932 Archangel, Oblast

Daughter: Svetlana Valerliyevna KOSTIKOV (1959 Moscow)

Arrived in Mexico with his wife and daughter on 19 September 1961

Language: Excellent Spanish, good English

Graduated from Moscow Institute of Foreign Languages

Traveled quite extensively between 1958 and 1960 using passport p 8 39990.....issued in Moscow on 10 July 1958.

In 1958 he was in Madrid and Barcelona, listed as an interpreter. He again travelled to Madrid in 1959 was scheduled as a member of Khruschev's party to the U.G. In September 1959; attended the Soviet Exhibition in Mexico City in November 1959; and went to the Soviet Exhibition in Havana in Jamuary-February 1960; He returned to Europe in March 1960

traveling from Cuba via the U.S.

2. KGB Officer who associates with known KGB officers in Mexico City.

3. We are submitting herewith a photograph of KOSTIKOV and request that it be shown to TUMBLEWEED for confirmation of identity.

4. We would appreciate receiving additional details of TUMBLEWEED's visit to Mexico and any further information you may have on his Soviet Case Officer

FOR THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR (PLANS) :

Signed James Angleton

JAMES ANGLETON

Distribution

Orig. & 1 - Addressee

1 - CI/Liason

1 - CI/DA

1 - CI/OG/SS

1 - Comeback

1 - RE Files SE New File 201-248427 & 201-305052

1 - SR/CI/RSD

1 -SR/CI/PPL/dl

In Col. Oleg Nechiporenko's Passport To Assassination, there is a section that seems to dovetail with the TUMBLEWEED issue, when he refers to an individual who contacted Pavel Yatskov in the fall of 1963.

See Chapter 12 "How A Fish Became A Dog."

Although Nechiporenko, whose information I take with a grain of salt, does not comment as to the individual named "John"

being an Agency employee, he does elucidate that he felt "American intelligence was behind it." [The meeting, that is.]

John, was ostensibly an inveterate fisherman, and not surprisingly, Yatskov, Nechiporenko and "John" met in th fall of 1963 at a man-made reservoir called Presa Endo, approximately 80 kilometers outside Mexico City......

The long and the short of it, was that John started pumping Pavel Yatskov about information concerning Lee Oswald's visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico......

Mary Ferrell CIA Cryptonym Project

AE BURBLE - Stateside Soviet double-agent controlled by the FBI, and code-named TUMBLEWEED by the FBI. Actual name Guenter Schulz.

AEBURBLE (TUMBLEWEED)'s information was what made the connection between Valeriy Kostikov and the KGB's "Department 13."

Getting back to John, this is what Nechiporenko's book says of him.

On June 12, 1964 Pavel informed Moscow Center about this new contact and signed the report using his code name R.

R became acquainted with John [hereafter referred to as "Pez" -- Spanish for fish).

He was born in 1931, an American citizen, a resident of Arizona, of German background, married to a Mexican woman, with three children. Teaches English language. Pez was born into the family of a civil servant. After the death of his father he was forced to go to work at the age of sixteen to help support the family. At the same time he did not curtail his studies. He served in the army, in aviation units based in Alaska.

After military service, he enrolled at Syracuse University in the Department of Foreign Languages, where he studied Russian.

Because of material shortcomings, he transferred to Mexico City College in Mexico City, where he studied in the Department of International Law, that is, he was preparing for his diplomatic service. While a student he married a Mexican. Because of financial difficulties and a desire not to leave Mexico, he quit his studies in 1958. For some time, in order to save money, he worked in the United States as a bus driver.

Up until last year [1963] he was a teacher at Mexico City College. At the present time he has left that position and taken on a new job as teacher of English in the newly opened Catholic Institute, where the salary is twice as much.

His wife, who is a teacher by training, works as a director in one of Mexico's state schools. Judging by their conversations, she has some influential relatives in the Mexican government. She apparently is also a friend of the wife of the Mexican president.

Based on preliminary data, Pez has wide-ranging contacts among the Americans living in Mexico. Pez has a friend who is head of the Customs Control Group on the Mexican-American border.Through him Pez sometimes received duty-free goods from the United States.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Robert Howard

[Thomas Graves]

Steve, you can find out the details on this from the Newman pressentation that Joe B. was good enough to archive in the Lancer site. Newman speaks to Tumbleweed in that.

Basically Tumbleweed refers to the FBI identification of a foreign national in NYC who had a range of contacts in the U.S. and in Mexico City with persons of interest including Soviet intel. staff. This was part of the identification of Kostikov as attached to Soviet espionage and sabotage. Tumbleweed and Loredo are both names that come up in conjunction with this; interestingly enough Loredo was also a Soviet contact name given by Nagell.

This was one of the biggest FBI counter intelligence breaks of the time and there is reason to believe that Hoover was very much interested in exploiting it.

bump; very interesting thread

--Tommy

Edited May 21, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 7/25/2005 at 2:14 PM, Tim Gratz said:

I believe the TUMBLEWEED operation merits additional commentary. I do not have my "library" with me now but this is the information from the Lancer cite to which Larry refered:

FROM MR. NEWMAN'S PRESENTATION:

So you can see here. 'Kostikov,' this is the story, 'is an identified KGB officer. He was a case officer in an operation that is evidently sponsored by the KGB's 13th department that is responsible for sabotage and assassination...'

"But it gets better.

'The operation which is controlled by the FBI under the cryptonym TUMBLEWEED involved a German national resident of,' and there's the right amount of letters here for New York, 'who was recruited in Europe...'  

[note: it turns out it's Oklahoma according to this un-redacted copy of the 11/23/63 document in question: 

"... 2. KOSTIKOV is an identified KGB officer. He was a case officer in an operation which is evidently sponsored by the KGB's 13th Department (responsible for sabotage and assassination). This operation, which is controlled by the FBI under the cryptonym TUMBLEWEED, involved a German-national resident of Oklahoma who was recruited in Europe, and met this year with KOSTIKOV in Mexico City and shortly thereafter with a known 13th Department officer, Oleg BRYNIN, in New York. Objectives for the instructions given TUMBLEWEED by the two officers, (pinpointing sabotage) and the circumstances of their involvement in the case, left no doubt that both of them were working for the same KGB component, the 13th." ,,, ]  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/cia/russholmes/pdf/104-10436-10025.pdf

  -- Tommy  

"In other words, we doubled a KGB guy. The CIA recruited him in Europe.

'And met this year with Kostikov in Mexico City and shortly thereafter with a known 13th department officer Oleg Brykin in New York.

"And because he's doing it in New York, who's that going to involve? What federal agency? The FBI, they have jurisdiction over these things, once it's inside U.S. borders.

'The instructions given TUMBLEWEED...,' TUMBLEWEED, meaning the guy that we doubled 'by Kostikov,' by the two officers, meaning Kostikov and Brykin 'pinpointed objectives for sabotage and the circumstances of their involvement in the case left no doubt that both of them,' meaning Kostikov and Brykin, 'were working for the same KGB component, the 13th.'

"I'm going to put this in plain English. We doubled a guy that was working for the KGB. He was receiving orders from the 13th department. And the two guys that were giving him orders were Brykin and Kostikov. And it was going on in 1963. And the FBI was the U.S. agency in control of monitoring, and using, and exploiting TUMBLEWEED because it was happening in New York City. Brykin worked in the United Nations undercover as a Soviet something or other up there.

"And I found another document, that explains it even better, just a little better, that has another little paragraph. And this is what's being uncovered on the 23rd. It's not just that Kostikov is some kind of loosely, known to be associated with the KGB 13th department. WE'VE GOT HIM! There is a guy that he's instructing. HE'S OURS! And every time he (Kostikov) instructs him (TUMBLEWEED) to do something he, (TUMBLEWEED) he comes and tells us what his instructions are. SO WE ARE EXPLOITING THE WHOLE THING, through this guy TUMBLEWEED.

"So, where are we going here? It's only hours after the assassination. They just found out that that is not Oswald in the photographs, his voice isn't even on the tapes, but whoever impersonates him, whoever is on the phone saying, 'I'm Oswald' links Oswald to TUMBLEWEED, to the whole TUMBLEWEED thing that the FBI is in charge of which involves Kostikov, and through Kostikov.

"So, I want you to imagine being at the top of the FBI on Saturday when the CIA passes this along to them. Kostikov has been an active case. The TUMBLEWEED program has been an active case all year long. 'You've been watching. You've been watching Oswald. He's an active case. And that it's worse than that, you've got the two meeting. And it's in your files. And you haven't done anything.'

"This is another document I found. That's my handwriting up there because I found 3 copies of this document. This is Kostikov's 201 number up here. (201-305052) Anyway, here's the paragraph, 'Physical description of Kostikov quite accurately is...we had from a year ago in Mexico, and FBI...

"Here, 'He met in Mexico an FBI controlled double agent...' This is the rest of the story I'm telling you. 'The double agent's Soviet case officer in the U.S. has been Oleg Brykin of the 13 department KGB occupying the overt position of translator/transcriber to U.S. Secretary, New York City.

"Now this is blacked out here, you see this is actually redacted. But, I found like I told you I found 3 or 4 copies of this and guess what? I found another copy that they had neglected to redact. And it has not only TUMBLEWEED, but it has TUMBLEWEED'S CIA cryptonym that goes along with it.

"And of course it's an AE crypt. Those of you who are into collecting these cryptonyms like Nosenko, all of those guys were AE/______, whatever. And this guy is an AE crypt.

"And this here is passing, the whole, all of their stuff along. Bagley from the CIA, he passes it along to the FBI. It's on the 23rd. It's in the afternoon and it's pretty bad news.

"I'm not really certain of what's missing out here but this whole memo here, this is an FBI memo from Brennan to Sullivan referencing a call they just got from Bagley.

"This is the other copy I found. I blew it up and you can see the TUMBLEWEED,

AE/_________. Now you figure it out. What do you think? Looks like DURBILL. That's been my guess. AE/DURBILL. We just got a new crypt..

"It's the TUMBLEWEED project which is an FBI controlled program where we have got the inside line on Valery Kostikov, and had him all year, [i.e., FBI knew Kostikov was KGB Department 13 for several months before Oswald allegedly went to Mexico City] and that would be the guy that Oswald went down there and met with, and whoever impersonated him, made damn sure was inside U.S. intelligence files the day Kennedy was shot.

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

On 7/25/2005 at 8:39 PM, Tim Gratz said:

Does anyone know the actual name of Tumbleweed?

AEBURBLE

Stateside Soviet double-agent controlled by the FBI, and code-named TUMBLEWEED by the FBI. Actual name Guenter Schulz

[Thomas Graves]

Chris,

Isn't one of the salient points brought out on this thread so far the fact that the FBI knew that Kostikov was KGB Department 13 for several months before the assassination?

And that they claim to have not been able to "connect the dots" that "Kostin / Kostine" was Kostikov from November 5 or November 18 (or something like that) on?

But were (in retrospect, suspiciously / implausibly) "informed" of this incendiary fact by the CIA on November 23?

--  Tommy   Edited a bit on 4/27/17

 

..................................................................................................

Chris Newton's excellent, back-in-the-day reply:

"Yes.

My suspicion is at least some of the activities such as the recorded phone calls were a deception meant to connect Oswald to an assassination plot involving Russia and Cuba. My number one suspect in this effort would be DAP who would certainly have intimate knowledge of TUMBLEWEED. I think Oswald may have been sent down to Mexico by DAP to apply for a Cuban Visa. During this trip another Operation was commenced using other individuals connected to DAP to build this backstory to the assassination."

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

3 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

And that they claim to have not been able to "connect the dots" that "Kostin / Kostine" was Kostikov from November 5 or November 18 (or something like that) on?

But were suspiciously "informed" of this incendiary fact by the CIA on November 23?

 

Yes.

My suspicion is at least some of the activities such as the recorded phone calls were a deception meant to connect Oswald to an assassination plot involving Russia and Cuba. My number one suspect in this effort would be DAP who would certainly have intimate knowledge of TUMBLEWEED. I think Oswald may have been sent down to Mexico by DAP to apply for a Cuban Visa. During this trip another Operation was commenced using other individuals connected to DAP to build this backstory to the assassination.

[Thomas Graves]

14 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

 

Yes.

My suspicion is at least some of the activities such as the recorded phone calls were a deception meant to connect Oswald to an assassination plot involving Russia and Cuba. My number one suspect in this effort would be DAP who would certainly have intimate knowledge of TUMBLEWEED. I think Oswald may have been sent down to Mexico by DAP to apply for a Cuban Visa. During this trip another Operation was commenced using other individuals connected to DAP to build this backstory to the assassination.

Chris,

So, how many birds do you think Phillips was trying to kill with one stone (by sending LHO down to MC to try to get a visa to Cuba and / or Russia)?

Trejo seems to think LHO was sent there only as part of an assassination plot against Castro.

--  Tommy

 

[Chris Newton]

2 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

So, how many birds do you think Phillips was trying to kill with one stone (by sending LHO down to MC to try to get a visa to Cuba and / or Russia)?

 

It's not hard to imagine that if DAP was talking to LHO in Dallas previous to the Mexico trip, as reported by Veciana, that he was also DAP's asset in New Orleans and South Florida. That DAP tried to entice Veciana to set up Oswald is also telling. It's probably fortuitous for Veciana that he refused to do so. 2 birds?

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/11/2016 at 7:17 PM, Chris Newton said:

 

It's not hard to imagine that if DAP was talking to LHO in Dallas previous to the Mexico trip, as reported by Veciana, that he was also DAP's asset in New Orleans and South Florida. That DAP tried to entice Veciana to set up Oswald is also telling. It's probably fortuitous for Veciana that he refused to do so. 2 birds?

Chris,

Please help freshen my memory for me.  What did Phillips want Veciana to do in regards to Oswald?

Thanks,

--  Tommy

[Chris Newton]

7 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Please help freshen my memory for me.  What did Phillips want Veciana to do in regards to Oswald?

Tommy,

 

A summary is here (paragraph #142), but I might suggest reading the whole Veciana chapter. His story never changed.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=45&tab=page

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Tommy,

A summary is here (paragraph #142), but I might suggest reading the whole Veciana chapter. His story never changed.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=45&tab=page

Oh yes.  According to Veciana, Phillips asked him to try to bribe one of his (Veciana's) Cuban-Intelligence relatives into claiming that he (the Cuban Intelligence officer / agent) and his wife had met with Oswald in Cuba.

I'd forgotten about that.

Thanks!

--  Tommy

Edited December 13, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/11/2016 at 6:51 PM, Chris Newton said:

Y

On 12/11/2016 at 6:40 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Chris,

Isn't one of the salient points brought out on this thread so far the fact that the FBI knew that Kostikov was KGB Department 13 for several months before the assassination?

And that they claim to have not been able to "connect the dots" that "Kostin / Kostine" was Kostikov from November 5 or November 18 (or something like that) on?

But (in retrospect, suspiciously / implausibly) weren't "informed" of this incendiary fact by the CIA until November 23?

--  Tommy   Edited a bit on 4/27/17

 

..................................................................................................

Chris Newton's excellent, back-in-the-day reply:

"Yes.

My suspicion is at least some of the activities such as the recorded phone calls were a deception meant to connect Oswald to an assassination plot involving Russia and Cuba. My number one suspect in this effort would be DAP who would certainly have intimate knowledge of TUMBLEWEED. I think Oswald may have been sent down to Mexico by DAP to apply for a Cuban Visa. During this trip another Operation was commenced using other individuals connected to DAP to build this backstory to the assassination."

 

Edited, merged, bumped

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/13/2016 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Oh yes.  According to Veciana, Phillips asked him to try to bribe one of his (Veciana's) Cuban-Intelligence relatives into claiming that he (the Cuban Intelligence officer / agent) and his wife had met with Oswald in Cuba.

I'd forgotten about that.

Thanks!

--  Tommy

So two months after the assassination, it was of some importance to David Phillips that a connection be made between Oswald and Cuban intelligence. Just like the connection had been made between Oswald and Russian intelligence (i.e. Kostikov).

Certain forum members keep insisting that the Kostikov thing was not meant to be a pretext for war. If not, then what other goal would Phillips have had in mind in his attempt to link Oswald to Cuban Intelligence? It wouldn't have been, as has been suggested, to spook LBJ into covering up the assassination (via the WW3 threat). Because LBJ had already made the coverup decision two months earlier.

[Thomas Graves]

42 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So two months after the assassination, it was of some importance to David Phillips that a connection be made between Oswald and Cuban intelligence. Just like the connection had been made between Oswald and Russian intelligence (i.e. Kostikov).

Certain forum members keep insisting that the Kostikov thing was not meant to be a pretext for war. If not, then what other goal would Phillips have had in mind in his attempt to link Oswald to Cuban Intelligence? It wouldn't have been, as has been suggested, to spook LBJ into covering up the assassination (via the WW3 threat). Because LBJ had already made the coverup decision two months earlier.

Sandy,

Does your epiphany give you any clues as to who killed Kennedy, or are you resigned to the "National Security Deep State" way-of-thinking "fact" that it must have been the whole evil, evil, evil CIA that done the deed?

--  Tommy

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thomas Graves