Operation Tumbleweed?

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Does this epiphany give you any clues as to who killed Kennedy, or are you resigned to the "National Security State" "fact" that it was the whole evil, evil CIA that done the deed?

--  Tommy

 

Tommy,

I'm not resigned to anything. I've changed my mind numerous times because the evidence has forced me to. An example is that I once believed that Couch/Darnell showed Shelley and Lovelady walking to the railroad yard. Later I changed my mind and thought that Shelley and Lovelady waited 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to arrive before leaving the steps. But once Lovelady was identified on the steps in Darnell, followed by Gloria Calvery and her companion being identified, I had to change positions yet again.

I do believe the assassination was an inside government job. The reason I believe that is because I can't  believe the Johnson administration would have covered up an assassination executed by outsiders, such as the Mafia or a group of right-wing civilians.

And I can't believe that the Russians or the Cubans would attempt to assassinate a president of the United States.

That leaves 1) the military. And perhaps 2) a powerful group of far-right officials in the federal government who just can't wait the 5 years for Kennedy to leave office. And then there is 3) LBJ, who had the most to gain from the assassination.

But none of these three had the means to pull off an assassination themselves. Who better to get the job done other than the CIA, which had been in the of regime change business for several years.

So yes, I strongly suspect that the CIA were the planners. However, I believe that the CIA was probably recruited by one or more of the three entities I listed above.

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

I'm not resigned to anything. I've changed my mind numerous times because the evidence has forced me to. An example is that I once believed that Couch/Darnell showed Shelley and Lovelady walking to the railroad yard. Later I changed my mind and thought that Shelley and Lovelady waited 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to arrive before leaving the steps. But once Lovelady was identified on the steps in Darnell, followed by Gloria Calvery and her companion being identified, I had to change positions yet again.

I do believe the assassination was an inside government job. The reason I believe that is because I can't  believe the Johnson administration would have covered up an assassination executed by outsiders, such as the Mafia or a group of right-wing civilians.

And I can't believe that the Russians or the Cubans would attempt to assassinate a president of the United States.

That leaves 1) the military. And perhaps 2) a powerful group of far-right officials in the federal government who just can't wait the 5 years for Kennedy to leave office. And then there is 3) LBJ, who had the most to gain from the assassination.

But none of these three had the means to pull off an assassination themselves. Who better to get the job done other than the CIA, which had been in the of regime change business for several years.

So yes, I strongly suspect that the CIA were the planners. However, I believe that the CIA was probably recruited by one or more of the three entities I listed above.

 

The whole CIA, huh?

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Thomas Graves said:

The whole CIA, huh?

No, not the whole CIA. Otherwise any CIA member sympathetic to Kennedy, the Constitution, or just plain decency would have tipped off the President.

Besides, there is no job that the whole CIA does. Everything is compartmented on a need-to-know basis. Some high level officer -- one who hated Kennedy and had a lot of loyal followers within the CIA -- would be in charge. He would pick others he knew who also hated Kennedy to assist him in the plan. Most agents below that level wouldn't even know what they were working on.

I have a suspicion that the anti-Castro Cubans were made to believe they were concocting a plan to eliminate Kennedy. So that, if necessary, the CIA could divert attention of federal investigators toward them.

 

[Thomas Graves]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

No, not the whole CIA. Otherwise any CIA member sympathetic to Kennedy, the Constitution, or just plain decency would have tipped off the President.

Besides, there is no job that the whole CIA does. Everything is compartmented on a need-to-know basis. Some high level officer -- one who hated Kennedy and had a lot of loyal followers within the CIA -- would be in charge. He would pick others he knew who also hated Kennedy to assist him in the plan. Most agents below that level wouldn't even know what they were working on.

I have a suspicion that the anti-Castro Cubans were made to believe they were concocting a plan to eliminate Kennedy. So that, if necessary, the CIA could divert attention of federal investigators toward them.

 

I'm glad to hear that you've eliminated the janitors from consideration, at least for the time being.

 

[Chris Newton]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

...I strongly suspect that the CIA were the planners. However, I believe that the CIA was probably recruited by one or more of the three entities I listed above.

Pure speculation: I think it's more likely that Dulles & Angleton began the assassination operation about the same time that LHO returned to the US. As their planning progressed, a small team of witting collaborators was slowly developed. You are correct in that "compartmentalization" could minimize that "witting" team. The planners had to have carefully thought of a plan to check any dissenting unwitting collaborators after the fact. Consider this: post-BOP could Dulles have taken the dangerous step of recruiting someone like Hoover in a treasonous plot? I don't think so.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

32 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Pure speculation: I think it's more likely that Dulles & Angleton began the assassination operation about the same time that LHO returned to the US. As their planning progressed, a small team of witting collaborators was slowly developed. You are correct in that "compartmentalization" could minimize that "witting" team. The planners had to have carefully thought of a plan to check any dissenting unwitting collaborators after the fact. Consider this: post-BOP could Dulles have taken the dangerous step of recruiting someone like Hoover in a treasonous plot? I don't think so.

 

Considering how completely Dulles went out to lunch on the BOP why would anyone trust him to arrange a Presidential assassination?

[Chris Newton]

9 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Considering how completely Dulles went out to lunch on the BOP why would anyone trust him to arrange a Presidential assassination?

My point entirely, but Dulles could have been involved behind the scenes with his close associate Angleton. Dulles was still respected by some even after his ouster, many thought he took the blame for Kennedy's failings.

[Michael Clark]

On 7/27/2005 at 10:35 AM, Larry Hancock said:

Hi Robert, I tend to agree although I still rubs me the wrong way. For example Manchester gave a very specific time and description of the Hoover call...along with calls before and after it. I don't know how he would have come up with such a thing out of clear air - but now the call log shows the call he listed before and the one after with the time differences adjusted to eliminate the time for the Hoover call. A Hoover call makes so much sense its hard to imagine it not happening....and there is no other record of anyone seeing Hoover anywhere in DC that evening where he could have met personally with Johnson, Hoover definitely stand out by his apparent absense.

I tend to wonder if DeLoach simple heard Hoover mention having talked to the new President and assumed it was in person.

Beyond that, and my distaste for loose ends, we have another source who in his biography describes being with McCone for that purported security brief first thing in the morning; he states they met Johnson in the hallway and Johnson had no interest in a brief and after a short exchange he left with no dialog. Now if this is true it seems very significant and if not somebody is working very hard at covering up matters of importance like MC that were dicussed.

Not sure that we will ever claify it but for the moment the apparent absence of Hoover in D.C. that evening, the disappearing phone call and Johnson's lack of interest in any national security brief the morning after the assassination sound pretty silly given what one would have thought would be the interests of all the parties involved (Hoover not ususally being bashful about thrusting the Bureau to the fore as one example).

-- Larry

A question, or observation, as it were, keeps popping into my head with regard to the hours and days after the assassination.

Wouldn't Jackie be In the White House on Friday through Sunday night?

And wouldn't JEH and LBJ be working from their residences? I believe that they lived across the street from one-another.

I guess the best place to look for this would be Manchester's book, of which I do not have a copy.

 

[Larry Hancock]

All we have are approximations, from Manchester and the phone logs - Hoover apparently went home at around his regular time as hard as that is to believe - he was there when he received the call from Johnson who called from his office phone, something around six thirty eastern as I recall.  Johnson ultimately went to his residence, arrival about ten or so and he was accompined by several people, friends mostly who had flown back on AF1 with him.  They stayed with him most of the night.  My copy of Manchester is not ready to hand but it does give good detail on Johnson's movements...I put a good deal of that into Chapter 15 of SWHT if you have that.

Not sure what your overall question is, but Johnson moved into the White House rather quickly - far too quickly for JFK's friends who thought he was being an ass about it. 

 

[Michael Clark]

33 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

All we have are approximations, from Manchester and the phone logs - Hoover apparently went home at around his regular time as hard as that is to believe - he was there when he received the call from Johnson who called from his office phone, something around six thirty eastern as I recall.  Johnson ultimately went to his residence, arrival about ten or so and he was accompined by several people, friends mostly who had flown back on AF1 with him.  They stayed with him most of the night.  My copy of Manchester is not ready to hand but it does give good detail on Johnson's movements...I put a good deal of that into Chapter 15 of SWHT if you have that.

Not sure what your overall question is, but Johnson moved into the White House rather quickly - far too quickly for JFK's friends who thought he was being an ass about it. 

 

Thanks Larry,

I was thinking that LBJ and JEH would be able to just step outside, or walk across the street to have some of these conversations that seem to be missing their regular documentation. Being a phone guy, I know how little trouble it would be to set up a secure private line between two adjacent homes, especially if you were the head of the FBI and the Senate Majority Leader/VP, and your main line of business was blackmail.

Regarding books. Between the extensive free time I have had and membership to this forum, I have avoided books in lieu of the awesome experience here and the new-found knowledge of how to, and willingness to, find and dig-into original documents.

I read Jim Garrison's OTTOTA and Manchesters Goodbye Darkness and The Glory and the dream, long ago. I now how have a ton of great JFKA reading on my IPad and a list of books I want to buy and keep handy for future reading. 

Your participation here and your sober analysis has placed your books on that list.

Unless something falls-through, again, I'll be starting a new job on Monday, and I probably won't be around here much after that.

Allow me to thank you once again for all that you have done for me, this community and, indeed, our great nation.

Cheers,

Michael

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Michael, and I was a phone guy for quite a while as well...from transmission engineering to physical plant cost studies. Worked for Continental Telephone for eight years after coming out of Autovon switch maintenance in the service.  As to Johnson and Hoover direct access, probably not happening...as you can imagine beginning that evening Secret Service protection was intense and the story is that Johnson wondered out on his patio at one point that evening and one Agent almost drew down on him fearing another attack was in progress.

Johnson was a sneaky fellow though, earlier that fall he had eluded his protective detail and borrowed a car to have a clandestine meeting with his lawyer in regard to the Baker inquiry that was in progress.

I don't see much chance of un-monitored calls between Johnson and Hoover early on, or personal contact.  One reason for that is that we do know of one call that Manchester saw in the call log, from that evening to Hoover, that was later erased out of the log itself.  That suggests that there was no plan in place and as with the Sat morning call, later the transcript had to be altered and the tape itself erased.  Given that I would doubt any back channel was in place at that point or we would not have major loose ends like that.

Best wishes on the new job!  Larry

 

 

 

[Michael Clark]

9 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thanks Michael, and I was a phone guy for quite a while as well...from transmission engineering to physical plant cost studies. Worked for Continental Telephone for eight years after coming out of Autovon switch maintenance in the service.  As to Johnson and Hoover direct access, probably not happening...as you can imagine beginning that evening Secret Service protection was intense and the story is that Johnson wondered out on his patio at one point that evening and one Agent almost drew down on him fearing another attack was in progress.

Johnson was a sneaky fellow though, earlier that fall he had eluded his protective detail and borrowed a car to have a clandestine meeting with his lawyer in regard to the Baker inquiry that was in progress.

I don't see much chance of un-monitored calls between Johnson and Hoover early on, or personal contact.  One reason for that is that we do know of one call that Manchester saw in the call log, from that evening to Hoover, that was later erased out of the log itself.  That suggests that there was no plan in place and as with the Sat morning call, later the transcript had to be altered and the tape itself erased.  Given that I would doubt any back channel was in place at that point or we would not have major loose ends like that.

Best wishes on the new job!  Larry

 

 

 

Excellent as always,

Thanks again Larry

[Paul Brancato]

On 6/22/2010 at 10:33 AM, Robert Howard said:

TUMBLEWEED

http://www.maryferre....do?docId=25001

MEMORANDUM FOR: Director

Federal Bureau of Investigation

SUBJECT: TUMBLEWEED

Zeplocage? - R

1. Reference is made to information passed verbally on 19 February 1963 by Mr. Sam Papich regarding the subject of your file # 65-65652.

2. The description of the Soviet Case Officerwhom subject met during his recent visit to Mexico fit quite accurately with that of Valeriy Viadintrovich KOSTIKOV, an attache to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, Consular Office, Visa Section. In addition we have confirmation of the date that KOSTIKOV was involved in an auto accident in Vermorez on 6 January 1963. Following is the descriptive and biographic data we have on KOSTIKOV:

Date of Birth: 17 March 1933

Place of Birth: Moscow, USSR

Wife: Noen Aleksandravon KOSTIKOV (2 March 1932 Archangel, Oblast

Daughter: Svetlana Valerliyevna KOSTIKOV (1959 Moscow)

Arrived in Mexico with his wife and daughter on 19 September 1961

Language: Excellent Spanish, good English

Graduated from Moscow Institute of Foreign Languages

Traveled quite extensively between 1958 and 1960 using passport p 8 39990.....issued in Moscow on 10 July 1958.

In 1958 he was in Madrid and Barcelona, listed as an interpreter. He again travelled to Madrid in 1959 was scheduled as a member of Khruschev's party to the U.G. In September 1959; attended the Soviet Exhibition in Mexico City in November 1959; and went to the Soviet Exhibition in Havana in Jamuary-February 1960; He returned to Europe in March 1960

traveling from Cuba via the U.S.

2. KGB Officer who associates with known KGB officers in Mexico City.

3. We are submitting herewith a photograph of KOSTIKOV and request that it be shown to TUMBLEWEED for confirmation of identity.

4. We would appreciate receiving additional details of TUMBLEWEED's visit to Mexico and any further information you may have on his Soviet Case Officer

FOR THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR (PLANS) :

Signed James Angleton

JAMES ANGLETON

Distribution

Orig. & 1 - Addressee

1 - CI/Liason

1 - CI/DA

1 - CI/OG/SS

1 - Comeback

1 - RE Files SE New File 201-248427 & 201-305052

1 - SR/CI/RSD

1 -SR/CI/PPL/dl

In Col. Oleg Nechiporenko's Passport To Assassination, there is a section that seems to dovetail with the TUMBLEWEED issue, when he refers to an individual who contacted Pavel Yatskov in the fall of 1963.

See Chapter 12 "How A Fish Became A Dog."

Although Nechiporenko, whose information I take with a grain of salt, does not comment as to the individual named "John"

being an Agency employee, he does elucidate that he felt "American intelligence was behind it." [The meeting, that is.]

John, was ostensibly an inveterate fisherman, and not surprisingly, Yatskov, Nechiporenko and "John" met in th fall of 1963 at a man-made reservoir called Presa Endo, approximately 80 kilometers outside Mexico City......

The long and the short of it, was that John started pumping Pavel Yatskov about information concerning Lee Oswald's visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico......

Mary Ferrell CIA Cryptonym Project

AE BURBLE - Stateside Soviet double-agent controlled by the FBI, and code-named TUMBLEWEED by the FBI. Actual name Guenter Schulz.

AEBURBLE (TUMBLEWEED)'s information was what made the connection between Valeriy Kostikov and the KGB's "Department 13."

Getting back to John, this is what Nechiporenko's book says of him.

On June 12, 1964 Pavel informed Moscow Center about this new contact and signed the report using his code name R.

R became acquainted with John [hereafter referred to as "Pez" -- Spanish for fish).

He was born in 1931, an American citizen, a resident of Arizona, of German background, married to a Mexican woman, with three children. Teaches English language. Pez was born into the family of a civil servant. After the death of his father he was forced to go to work at the age of sixteen to help support the family. At the same time he did not curtail his studies. He served in the army, in aviation units based in Alaska.

After military service, he enrolled at Syracuse University in the Department of Foreign Languages, where he studied Russian.

Because of material shortcomings, he transferred to Mexico City College in Mexico City, where he studied in the Department of International Law, that is, he was preparing for his diplomatic service. While a student he married a Mexican. Because of financial difficulties and a desire not to leave Mexico, he quit his studies in 1958. For some time, in order to save money, he worked in the United States as a bus driver.

Up until last year [1963] he was a teacher at Mexico City College. At the present time he has left that position and taken on a new job as teacher of English in the newly opened Catholic Institute, where the salary is twice as much.

His wife, who is a teacher by training, works as a director in one of Mexico's state schools. Judging by their conversations, she has some influential relatives in the Mexican government. She apparently is also a friend of the wife of the Mexican president.

Based on preliminary data, Pez has wide-ranging contacts among the Americans living in Mexico. Pez has a friend who is head of the Customs Control Group on the Mexican-American border.Through him Pez sometimes received duty-free goods from the United States.

I'm bumping this thread because I want to suggest the possibility that Kostikov was himself a double agent of some kind. I notice that according to Angleton, as per Howard's post above, Kostikov spent time in Madrid on two occasions in 1958 and '59, returned to Europe (where?) in 1960. Kostikov was in touch with Guenter Schulz (tumbleweed), a German national who was KGB, but turned by the FBI. This may be a real shot in the dark, but what if Kostikov and Schulz were working for Germans, as in Odessa? The head of Odessa, the post war Nazi global network, was Otto Skorzeny, principal residence Madrid. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Chris Newton]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Otto Skorzeny

I think the Skorzeny connection would lead right back to Dulles/Angleton, no?

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

I think the Skorzeny connection would lead right back to Dulles/Angleton, no?

Given that I'm speculating rather wildly, yes I think it would. What got me thinking about CIA/Odessa was an article I read, randomly, on Jim Hougan's website about Jim Jones, ho spent the years 1962-63 in Brazil. When he moved to Rio (possibly following Dan Mitrione there - speculation by Hougan is that Mitrione was with CIA and control agent for Jones) he got a job at a company called Invesco, selling securities. When the CEO of Invesco was interviewed, he said Jones was a bad salesman, and never sold anything - imagine that - Jones a bad salesman! When Invesco was looked at more closely, it appeared to have been part of the Odessa network. One of the major stockholders in Invesco, Scott Johnson, gave shelter to a Brit named Ronald Biggs, a participant in the Great Train Robbery who had been arrested but escaped in 1965, and eventually found his way to Rio and Johnson. Hougan's points out that ten years after the robbery, some of its participants claimed to writer Piers Paul Read that Skorzeny had financed the robbery. Incidentally, this wasn't the only reason Hougan speculated that Invesco was part of Odessa.

I haven't looked too closely at Skorzeny. Can you offer some insight into his CIA connections?

Edited June 27, 2017 by Paul Brancato