Josiah Thompson Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) Wow! The Professor has outfetzered himself. A bravura performance of fetzering!!! Instead of dealing with the point at issue — whether being taken up in a training plane by a Navy pilot forty years ago and touching the controls constitutes “piloting a jet”?! — Fetzer sprays his usual bile and then loads up the site with irrelevant quotes. I’ll ignore the irrelevant quotes and comment on what Fetzer took the time to write himself. Fetzer wrote: “Incidentally, I hope no one is being taken in by the sleazy practice of misquoting me and distorting my position to make cheap points, which are the only points that some of these critics are capable of making. Thompson's latest is a nice example.” Okay Professor. How are you being misquoted? I said, “Neither [Fetzer nor Four Arrows] has ever piloted an aircraft and their analysis shows that they know butkus about aviation.” You replied: “I piloted a jet as a midshipman while I was in college.” I pointed out that this was hilarious, that you never “piloted” anything as a midshipman. You replied that I had put words in your mouth: “I said I had piloted a jet; I did not claim to be a ‘jet pilot.’” The text shows clearly that this is false, that I quoted you correctly in pointing out what you said: “I had piloted a jet.” Your own words hang you and then you try to get out of it. Typical fetzering. Fetzer wrote: “Read it carefully and compare it with the post he would like you to think he is quoting. Sometimes the deception can be as subtle as changing a period into a comma. The man has a Ph.D. in philosophy from Yale and must know what he is doing. He is playing the members of this forum for saps, insulting their intelligence.” What on earth are you talking about? “Changing a period into a comma..” Huh? Fetzer wrote: “Surely my four years with the USMC are at least equal to his two in the UDT! Anyone with military experience should be able to see through his distortions, which are in line with his long string of abuses of logic and language in attacks upon me, which appear to be motivated from a combination of envy regarding my academic accomplishments compared to his and supporting research that has revealed the Zapruder film was recreated to provide a phony account of the death of JFK, which means his book was based on the study of a fake film.” Huh? You are the only one comparing military experience between the two of us. Unlike you, I don’t talk about mine. The rest of this quote is just the usual fetzering bloviation. We’ve all heard it before and it doesn’t connect with anything. Fetzer wrote: “Notice how he deflects attention from his departure from Haverford, which, I strongly suspect, was related to his acknowledged theft of film from Time/Life.)” When he can’t win an argument on its merits (the Professor’s flight as a midshipman), he begins throwing the vitriol. Now he means to claim that my quitting a tenured professorship at Haverford in 1978 has something to do with making a copy of the Zapruder film in the TIME/LIFE building twelve years before in 1966. Of course since he has no evidence, he insinuates this. He says: “I strongly suspect.” This is classic fetzering. If you have no evidence, try to destroy your opponent’s character with innuendo and false charges. First off, I left Haverford because I was bored. It had nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination. That leaving is fully described in a book I published in 1988 called Gumshoe. Secondly, I’m rather proud of making that copy of the Zapruder film in the TIME/LIFE building in November of 1966. I’m happy to take credit for it and have done it again and again. I testified before the ARRB about it. I offered an oral history about it for the Sixth Floor Museum’s oral history. Finally, I published an account of it in Richard Trask’s new book on the Zapruder film. If there was anything about it that reflected badly on me, I probably would have shut up. Right Professor? But I didn’t. What does that tell you? The reader can make up his/her mind because below is a full description of what happened as drawn from Trask’s new book: “Early November 1966 I flew to Dallas and met Kern and Billings and Patsy Swank there. [swank was a LIFE stringer who had originally let magazine personnel know about the existence of the Zapruder film.] Using 4" by 5" transparencies, we interviewed Dr. Charles Gregory who in 1963 had treated the wounded Governor John Connally. We returned to the hotel leaving the transparencies with Henry Suydam, LIFE’s Miami bureau chief. We returned from dinner to the hotel room. I said I’d like to study the transparencies and take them to my room. Before leaving the room, I inventoried the stack of transparencies and found that four (in the 230s) were missing. They were present there when we showed the transparencies to Dr. Gregory. I left the stack in the room. I learned subsequently that the next morning Ed Kern distracted Henry Suydam while Billings searched Suydam’s room. The missing transparencies were not found.” “Mid-November 1966 I didn’t know what was going on. I suspected that there was some power struggle at LIFE in motion, but I had not a clue what it was about and who was on what side. I decided that it would be an extremely good idea for a good copy of the relevant frames to exist outside the Time-Life Building. I put a 35 mm camera with a copying stand and 15 or so rolls of film in my brief case and went up to New York on the Thursday or Friday before the issue entitled “A Matter of Reasonable Doubt” closed. Kern and Billings left by about 5:00 PM. I stayed. I set up my copying stand over the light table in Kern’s office and started copying the 4" by 5" transparencies. Kern came back and said, “What’re you doing, Tink?” I replied, “I’m copying some frames from the goddam film. I need to study them down in Philadelphia.” Kern said nothing and then left. I spent the next two hours or so copying the remaining frames until my film was exhausted. We learned in the lawsuit [later filed by Time Inc.] that the following Monday Kern told the editor of LIFE, George Hunt, that he had come back and found me copying the film. Hunt later signed a consultancy contract with me which legally gave me permission to have a copy for my own research use. “ National Nightmare on Six Feet of Film by Richard B. Trask (Danvers, Massachusettes: Yeoman Press, 2005), pages 364-365. Checking out "mazers", microwave lasers, has turned up some interesting stuff. I noticed a couple of paragraphs buried in the data, such as (A) and (, which illustrate why this appears relevant as another kind of EM weapon that might have been involved in bringing down the Wellstone plane. We can expect the usual flurry from Colby, Lamson, Burton and Thompson. (Incidentally, I hope no one is being taken in by the sleazy practice of misquoting me and distorting my position to make cheap points, which are the only points that some of these critics are capable of making. Thompson's latest is a nice example. Read it carefully and compare it with the post he would like you to think he is quoting. Sometimes the deception can be as subtle as changing a period into a comma. The man has a Ph.D. in philosophy from Yale and must know what he is doing. He is playing the members of this forum for saps, insulting their intelligence. Surely my four years with the USMC are at least equal to his two in the UDT! Anyone with military experience should be able to see through his distortions, which are in line with his long string of abuses of logic and languge in attacks upon me, which appear to be motivated from a combination of envy regarding my academic accomplishments compared to his and supporting research that has revealed the Zapruder film was recreated to provide a phony account of the death of JFK, which means his book was based on the study of a fake film. Notice how he deflects attention from his departure from Haverford, which, I strongly suspect, was related to his acknowledged theft of film from Time/Life.).... Edited September 23, 2005 by Josiah Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 I swear, this thread is like a visit to bizarro-world. Here we have two of the best-educated men to ever write on the Kennedy assassination throwing food at each other in a cafeteria. If I may be so bold as to insert myself between the warring parties, let me say that, to a disinterested (but fascinated) onlooker, Fetzer's calling Tink a thief for doing what almost any concerned JFK researcher would have done is hitting below the belt, as is Thompson's questioning Fetzer's bravery and patriotism for bowing out of the military when Vietnam was heating up. I fail to see much difference in Fetzer's leaving the Marines to become an academic and Thompson's leaving academia to become a P.I. Both were respectable career choices. People are allowed to make changes in their life to better their station in life and/or increase their happiness, last that I checked. As to the Wellstone crash, I think Evan touches on a good point. Are there OTHER explanations for the crash that haven't been explored? As I understand it, Fetzer's book has two elements to it: one, that Wellstone was murdered for political reasons; and two, that there are high tech weapons that may have been used in the assassination. If there are alternative explanations for part one than two, they should be explored and not viewed as a challenge to Fetzer's basic points. To that end, is there any evidence the pilots were even conscious in the moments before the crash? If not, has anyone explored ways in which they could have been rendered unconscious? Could the smoke of a small electrical fire in the cabin knock them out? Could a remote-control incendiary device be used to achieve this same effect? Has there even been any research into these things? I would bet that somewhere in the libraries of the FBI, the CIA and NTSB, is a report on how planes can be made to crash and look like accidents. Has anyone ever acknowledged such a report exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Now he means to claim that my quitting a tenured professorship at Haverford in 1978 has something to do with making a copy of the Zapruder film in the TIME/LIFE building twelve years before in 1966. Of course since he has no evidence, he insinuates this. He says: “I strongly suspect.” This is classic fetzering. If you have no evidence, try to destroy your opponent’s character with innuendo and false charges. Tink After looking at your bio. it makes perfect sense to me. Didn't they promoted you twice after the 1st ed. of "6 Seconds". If you want to see another example of "your nemesis" making a fool of himself check out the link that Craig provided. Fetzer had a bit of a conniption fit. In the thread an aerospace engineer takes Cotella's EMP chapter to pieces and Jimmy didn't take it well. I'm sure you're extremely jealous of Fetzer, teaching at UM-Duluth is close to the pinnacle of academic achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah Thompson Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 "I fail to see much difference in Fetzer's leaving the Marines to become an academic and Thompson's leaving academia to become a P.I. Both were respectable career choices. People are allowed to make changes in their life to better their station in life and/or increase their happiness, last that I checked." Nice point, Pat. You're right. But now wouldn't we all like to hear how going for a hop in a jet piloted by someone else qualifies someone to claim: "I piloted a jet." At least that has something to do with the Wellstone plane crash. Would it be possible for the Great Man himself to admit that saying that was just a stupid mistake? Good lord, even people with "Ph.D." always plastered after their name sometimes make mistakes. Perhaps the Professor might lead us back to the center of the argument by explaining precisely what factors show that his explanation of the crash trumps the exhaustive investigation of the NTSB. It's just not enough to say (and not attempt to show) that the NTSB was part of the coverup. So have a go, Professor. Quit fetzering, assume that the rest of us might just be as intelligent as you and Four Arrows, and lay out your case. I'm waiting and listening. I swear, this thread is like a visit to bizarro-world. Here we have two of the best-educated men to ever write on the Kennedy assassination throwing food at each other in a cafeteria. If I may be so bold as to insert myself between the warring parties, let me say that, to a disinterested (but fascinated) onlooker, Fetzer's calling Tink a thief for doing what almost any concerned JFK researcher would have done is hitting below the belt, as is Thompson's questioning Fetzer's bravery and patriotism for bowing out of the military when Vietnam was heating up. I fail to see much difference in Fetzer's leaving the Marines to become an academic and Thompson's leaving academia to become a P.I. Both were respectable career choices. People are allowed to make changes in their life to better their station in life and/or increase their happiness, last that I checked.As to the Wellstone crash, I think Evan touches on a good point. Are there OTHER explanations for the crash that haven't been explored? As I understand it, Fetzer's book has two elements to it: one, that Wellstone was murdered for political reasons; and two, that there are high tech weapons that may have been used in the assassination. If there are alternative explanations for part one than two, they should be explored and not viewed as a challenge to Fetzer's basic points. To that end, is there any evidence the pilots were even conscious in the moments before the crash? If not, has anyone explored ways in which they could have been rendered unconscious? Could the smoke of a small electrical fire in the cabin knock them out? Could a remote-control incendiary device be used to achieve this same effect? Has there even been any research into these things? I would bet that somewhere in the libraries of the FBI, the CIA and NTSB, is a report on how planes can be made to crash and look like accidents. Has anyone ever acknowledged such a report exists? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah Thompson Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 After looking at your bio. it makes perfect sense to me. Didn't they promoted you twice after the 1st ed. of "6 Seconds." How clever of you to notice that, Len! If you want to see another example of "your nemesis" making a fool of himself check out the link that Craig provided. Fetzer had a bit of a conniption fit. In the thread an aerospace engineer takes Cotella's EMP chapter to pieces and Jimmy didn't take it well. Thanks. I'm sure you're extremely jealous of Fetzer, teaching at UM-Duluth is close to the pinnacle of academic achievement. You sure got that right, Len. A real "pinnacle of academic achievement" (as you put it) on the not often placid shores of Lake Superior. On the other hand, they've got this really tough policy on sexual harassment. If they catch you... even if you're a full professor... they suspend your ass without pay. It's tough living up there with no pay... stimulates you to do something else.... say write a book on the Wellstone crash and cash in on the controversy created. Now he means to claim that my quitting a tenured professorship at Haverford in 1978 has something to do with making a copy of the Zapruder film in the TIME/LIFE building twelve years before in 1966. Of course since he has no evidence, he insinuates this. He says: “I strongly suspect.” This is classic fetzering. If you have no evidence, try to destroy your opponent’s character with innuendo and false charges. Tink After looking at your bio. it makes perfect sense to me. Didn't they promoted you twice after the 1st ed. of "6 Seconds". If you want to see another example of "your nemesis" making a fool of himself check out the link that Craig provided. Fetzer had a bit of a conniption fit. In the thread an aerospace engineer takes Cotella's EMP chapter to pieces and Jimmy didn't take it well. I'm sure you're extremely jealous of Fetzer, teaching at UM-Duluth is close to the pinnacle of academic achievement. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 As to the Wellstone crash, I think Evan touches on a good point. Are there OTHER explanations for the crash that haven't been explored? ...To that end, is there any evidence the pilots were even conscious in the moments before the crash? If not, has anyone explored ways in which they could have been rendered unconscious? Could the smoke of a small electrical fire in the cabin knock them out? Could a remote-control incendiary device be used to achieve this same effect? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is really hard to say what exactly happened those last few minutes, there weren't any black boxes, there wasn't a distress call [which is NOT unusual] and no mechanical problems were discovered, the pilot's tox screens were clean, it was snowing and visibility wasn't good but icing was ruled out as a factor. The radar info only gave approximate data on airspeed, flight path, altitude, descent rate. The plane was almost completely destroyed by the impact and fire. Another words there are no obvious explanations and the investigators had very little to go on. The smoke theory isn't tenable because only three victims had smoke in there lung and they were all Wellstone aids. Also the coroner as indicated ran tox screen and didn't find anything I don't think there was enough time either the plane was only airborne about 2:20 after the last radio communication and crashing. The idea of a bomb or anything being planted on the plane is unlikely also. The time frame was pretty limited. Wellstone only contacted Aviation Charter the afternoon before the crash but the plane was on a job until about 7pm. Conry got to the airport at about 8am. I don't know when the company [small c] decided which plane Wellstone would fly on or how the Company [big C] could have gotten that info. One problem with any theory of foul play is the pilots. As I said to you after one of your 1st posts on this thread if there were any assassins they were very lucky to have two such poor pilots together Has there even been any research into these things? I would bet that somewhere in the libraries of the FBI, the CIA and NTSB, is a report on how planes can be made to crash and look like accidents. Has anyone ever acknowledged such a report exists? FBI and CIA maybe but I doubt at the NTSB despite Fetzers insinuations. The investigator are people with technical backgrounds including several with advanced degrees and they criss-cross the country investigating various types of transportation accidents. Very few of them if any have law enforcement or intelligence backgrounds. I think Fetzer said that Carol Carmody was a Bush apointee*. That is complete bullxxxx see was appointed in 2000 by and made acting chairwoman Jan 19 2001. That's right one of Fetzer's archvillians, responsible for the "cover-ups" of the Wellstone and Carnahan crashes was Clinton appointee *[Griffeth did at least and Fetzer pasted the review into one his posts] I think plane crashes can be faked pretty easily but not in away that would match the circumstances of this crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) Some highlights from Fetzer last post Electromagnetic radiation may be used to create or effect electric circuits in the human body which can cause heating, burns, seizures, organ dysfunctions etc.Metals or screening can be used to block out some forms of radiation such as microwaves. Stainless steel vacuum insulting shells such as in a thermoster can be used to block out some forms of radiation such as sound due to the vacuum.Reflective surfaces such as aluminum, mirrors, & crystals can be used to deflect some of the energy from lasers. 2. The 4th dimensional properties of materials and radiation Also some forms of 4th dimensional properties of radiation and energy man be used in directing forms of radiant energy through metals and other materials in electronic harassment. 4th dimensional properties may not be detected by standard electromagnetic meters. Great Jim more quotes from the tinfoil hat /UFO nut/ silver-lined boxer shorts/ hollow earth crowd!!! These are a bunch of paranoids who blame secret electromagnetic mind control for their neurosis Don't you look at this stuff before you post it? It's almost like you enjoy making a fool of yourself because you keep posting stuff from lunatics. They build mirror cover Faraday boxes - I think to sleep in like crazy 21st century paranoid Dracula shut-ins!! Jim if this is the best you can come up with give up!!! The only thing remotely interesting in that post was for the device to stop cars. The patent said nothing about range. From what I understand the prototypes which are only now being tested have ranges of 10 - 20 feet and aren't very reliable. Patents don't prove anything - you don't have to show that something will work to get one. See more quotes from the site below. I have developed a plan to recruit, hire and invite a million leaders to become company club trust members, some of whom may be representatives of star visitors, E.T.'s, and inner Earth societies. In order to provide the security services needed to protect club members and leaders world wide and to provide a secure base for company trust club main offices, I have also developed a plan to purchase and accept as donations some Islands and ships at sea on the surface of the Earth, in the inner hollow Earth, and bases on planets and space stations in outer space. Underwater floating submarine cities, flying saucers, airships, satellites, space stations, hover ships, and other private security and militia services may also be purchased and accepted as donations to provide basic militia and security services to club members and to secure company club ventures, properties, and their goals. http://www.rhfweb.com/club.html the quotes below are from various pages on the site. No urls but if want to check do a Google search "From my understanding much of electronic harassment is coming from international organizations outside of the United States, especially from Asian, Middle Eastern, and Shadow governmental underworld organizations, who live in underground bunkers and who use stealth airships, and satellite technologies to target world citizens with directed energies and remote sensing technologies; and who are hostile to US citizens and all world citizens, who live on the surface of the Earth, and who may have contracts with organizations in the US to target US citizens." "An electrified piece of metal or a faraday cage can be used to block out more intense radio waves. A simple faraday cage can be built in the basement by painting the basement walls with metalized paint and insulating them and then electrifying them...A metallic shiny mirror faraday cage box or wall which has a fountain of water sprayed over the randomly energized in phase, frequency, and intensity metal mirror box, may also jam out sound and beam weapons. The more layers of energized mirror metal and water the more successful one may be in jamming out the beam weapons and sound waves" Less emf at < http://www.lessemf.com/personal.html > sells a clothing with a silver conductive lining to block out some Emfs.[They sell silver lined caps, aprons, boxer shorts, tube socks etc. Len] There are companies which engineer and place crystal fibers in clothing also. If we were to also energize the clothing with an alternating current, phase, and frequency, and shield the clothing then we could create a small plasma force field around the clothing to jam out most energies. Some crystals can be engineered to pull in environmental energies and reflect them back to create a force field Edited September 26, 2005 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah Thompson Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Professor Fetzer, this is really embarassing. As Len Colby points out, your quotes are from the "the tinfoil hat /UFO nut/ silver-lined boxer shorts/ hollow earth crowd". Then Len Colby proved his point by showing how nutty your sources were. If this is the best you can do, then serious people can only turn away shaking their heads. Like Attorney Welch told Senator Joseph McCarthy, "Have you no shame, sir? Checking out "mazers", microwave lasers, has turned up some interesting stuff.I noticed a couple of paragraphs buried in the data, such as (A) and (, which illustrate why this appears relevant as another kind of EM weapon that might have been involved in bringing down the Wellstone plane. We can expect the usual flurry from Colby, Lamson, Burton and Thompson. (Incidentally, I hope no one is being taken in by the sleazy practice of misquoting me and distorting my position to make cheap points, which are the only points that some of these critics are capable of making. Thompson's latest is a nice example. Read it carefully and compare it with the post he would like you to think he is quoting. Sometimes the deception can be as subtle as changing a period into a comma. The man has a Ph.D. in philosophy from Yale and must know what he is doing. He is playing the members of this forum for saps, insulting their intelligence. Surely my four years with the USMC are at least equal to his two in the UDT! Anyone with military experience should be able to see through his distortions, which are in line with his long string of abuses of logic and languge in attacks upon me, which appear to be motivated from a combination of envy regarding my academic accomplishments compared to his and supporting research that has revealed the Zapruder film was recreated to provide a phony account of the death of JFK, which means his book was based on the study of a fake film. Notice how he deflects attention from his departure from Haverford, which, I strongly suspect, was related to his acknowledged theft of film from Time/Life.) Radiation Health Foundation Inc. at URL: www.rhfweb.com, Email ... Engineered Force fields, directed energy beam, laser, mazer jamming, ... Directed energy beam (radio frequency beams),laser, and mazer detection and jamming ... www.rhfweb.com/research.html - 23k - Sep 21, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages http://www.rhfweb.com/research.html (A) "Since magnetic induction may be used to create alternating eddy currents in the human body producing joule heating and electricity in the body, it may be possible to use magnetic energy beams in electronic harassment; and, magnetic beams may pass through metals. Furthermore, electrical circuits may create heating and burns on the body. Electromagnetic radiation may be used to create or effect electric circuits in the human body which can cause heating, burns, seizures, organ dysfunctions etc. The directed energy beams used in electronic harassment may not be detected by standard electromagnetic meters since those meters may not be fine enough or since the directed energy beams may pass right through the metal detector plates." * ( "A non-lethal weapon for disabling an engine such as that of a fleeing car by means of a high voltage discharge that perturbs or destroys the electrical circuits. The transmission of the disabling voltage to the distant target is via two channels of electrically conductive air. The conductive channels are created by multi-photon and collisional ionization within the paths of two beams of coherent (laser) or collimated incoherent ultraviolet radiation directed to the target. A single beam may be used when the high voltage source and the target are grounded. The high-voltage current flows from electrodes at the origin of the beams along the channels of free electrons within them. U.S. Patent 5,952,600" * Researching composite materials which can be used to deflect, absorb,& block out all forms of radiation especially sound, radio waves & directed radio frequency beams, high intensity lasers, directed energy beams, uv, infrared, & electronic harassment radiations. I. Standard Materials that can be used to absorb, block out, or deflect radiation. Many materials can be used to block out ordinary radiation coming from electronic devices such a microwave ovens. But many materials used to block out ordinary radiation may only block out a small percent of directed high intensity radiation coming from directed energy beams (such as radio frequency beams, mazers, lasers, & 4D beams. For more information on how high intensity directed energy beams may be used in electronic harassment click on speculation. Some of the materials listed below can be used to block out most forms of radiation emanating from simple electronic harassment devices and from other electronic devices. Metals or screening can be used to block out some forms of radiation such as microwaves. Stainless steel vacuum insulting shells such as in a thermoster can be used to block out some forms of radiation such as sound due to the vacuum. Reflective surfaces such as aluminum, mirrors, & crystals can be used to deflect some of the energy from lasers. But very high intensity lasers can go through most standard reflective substances. Some forms of radiation can be absorbed by brick or lead. High voltage can be blocked by using isolated circuits and traps. Electromagnetic pulses can be absorbed with a Faraday cage or grounded steel mesh. A non-screen farady cage- a solid sheet of metal (i.e. copper) enclosing all sides in which the individuals are inside and are not in contact with the metal walls. The walls should be connected to a transformer output of half wave reversing currents which prevent the penetration of different energies. U.S. Patent Number 5,291,829. Some forms of radioactive elements such as iridium stored in a ditch circling a house can be used to create a shield which absorbs some radiation. Heavy metals such as lead or zinc covered with with pyramids or cones from 1/8 to 5 inches high. The pyramids or cones should be sprayed with a metalic based and conductive or reflective paint. This material construction can block out some radiation. The plastic polyethelene may be used to block out some forms of radiation. Magnetic waves can be blocked out by using Magnetic Shield Foil MU-Metal, Faraday Cages, & Inductor/Transformer Fields. Conductive glass, paint, and brick material can be used to block out some forms of radiation and sound. A metal plate with two electordes in it to create a force field which can be tuned to different frequencies and energies may be used to block out radiation. Shielded fabrics can be purchased to block out some forms of radiation. Contact Less EMF (518) 392-1946, 26 Valley View Lane, Ghent Ny 12075 USA, for such fabrics. Metal with 3" inches of vacuum in it to block out sound. Crystal fibers woven in materials to block out gravit waves and heal bodily frequencies. 4 feet of specilized plastics to block out gravity waves. Ceramics may block out or absorb some gravity waves and subatomic partilces. II.Engineered composite materials that can be used to absorb, block out, or deflect radiation. Current Research: 1. Current research is being done on the reflective and absorbance properties of all electromagnetic frequencies on metals and other materials. This research will also attempt to consider the effects of intensities of radiation at each frequency on different materials. Other research areas include: 1. Composite materials that may be engineered to absorb or reflect all known forms of electromagnetic radiation at any frequency or intensity. Such materials may be comprised of a combination of conductive microcircuits, plastics, metals, vacuums, and cooling systems. 2. The 4th dimensional properties of materials and radiation. There are speculated composite materials which can completely (100%) block out all forms of electromagnetic radiation and all forms of directed radiation beams but these materials are kept secret from the general public. RHF is interested in doing research on composite materials which can block out, deflect or absorb all forms of directed energy beams which may include high intensity radio frequency beams, masers, and lasers. [Top of Document] * Research in force fields, cold plasma, and lasers, and directed energy beams that can be used to deflect, absorb, & block out all forms of radiation especially sound, radio waves & directed radio frequency beams, high intensity lasers, directed energy beams, uv, infrared, & electronic harassment radiations. I.Standard force fields which can be used to block out some forms of radiation Jamming devices to jam microwaves, ELF waves, & magnetic waves may be used to block out radiation. Alter the magnetic frequencies of the body and generate negative wavelengths of other frequencies involved. I.E. Create a magnetic field around your body by means of placing magnets around your body, or rotating magnets. Also a conductive coil placed around your body may work. Creating mangetic noise or other noise from the sounds of motors and other electronic devices may help to jam some of the radiation being directed at a human target. A screen which has a reversing high frequency voltage and a reversing magnetic field. See U.S. patent numbers 5213562, 5356368, 3647970, 5101831. Magnetic fields created with an induction or transformer coil can be used to block out some forms of radiation and magnetic fields. Radio frequency jammers can be used to interfere with and absorb radio frequency waves. Ion generators as used in air purifiers can be used to filter the air and block out some forms of radiation. EMF neutralizers and shields can be purchased which can block out some forms of radiation. Contact Less EMF (518) 392-1946, 26 Valley View Lane, Ghent Ny 12075 USA for the following products: i.e. Bioshield 2000 which is a small magnetic oscillator producing a directional 7.8 Hz field. Electrosmog Corrector Telsar Watch Earthsafe (Tunable Schumann Field Device from 2Hz to 20 Hz) Polarizers can be used to absorb some forms of radiation Contact Less EMF (518) 392-1946, 26 Valley View Lane, Ghent Ny 12075 USA for the following products: i.e. Life Field Polarizer For more information on how high intensity directed energy beams may be used in electronic harassment click on speculation. "Voltages can cause harm, and your are totally responsible for your own safety. Also please note that the radiation effects of the above devices are unknown and in the using the device your situation may change from worse to bad.". II. Engineered Force fields, directed energy beam, laser, mazer jamming, defection, absorption, and blocking devices RHF is interested in research in the following areas: 1. Cold Plasma Force Fields see Force Fields. Also please see U.S. Pat. Nos. 5,414,324, 5,387,842, and 5,456,972 at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html, which show how to use radio-frequency waves to energise a gas such as air to create a plasma, which could be used as a force field to absorb or deflect directed energies and radiations. 2. Directed energy beam (radio frequency beams),laser, and mazer detection and jamming devices 3. Some laser detection devices already exist such as: Communication Wave tracking and identification PCO Laser Radiation Warning System Detection and indication of radiation from laser range finders and target markers & indication of the direction to the radiating source. Determination of the type of the radiation source & indication of time elapsing from the moment of detection of laser. ITU-compliant Mobile spectrum monitoring and Direction Finding DF System Identify, classify, locate , and analyze intercepted signals traffic Electronic Intelligence System CS-2221 receiving System 4. Fourth dimensional properties of force fields. [Top of Document] * Research in measuring instruments, techniques, and procedures which can be used to sense, test, and record all forms of radiation especially sound, radio waves & directed radio frequency beams, high intensity lasers, directed energy beams, uv, infrared, & electronic harassment radiations. I.Currently available standard radiation testing equipment and procedures In construction. II.Electronic harassment testing equipment and procedures RHF is interested in researching techniques, procedures and equipment that can be specifically used to detect & record radiation, lasers and directed energies used in electronic harassment. RHF is also interested in researching biomedical testing techniques which can indirectly be used to show the amounts of radiation in the human body. Such techniques might include very specific and precise measurements of the amount of heat energy and pressure at a specific point in the body such as on the forehead or in the eyes. Measuring techniques already exist to measure the amount of radiation emitted from the body in a thermogram but these techniques may not be able to specifically and precisely measure the exact amount of heat in the eyes or forehead for instance. The directed energy beams used in electronic harassment may not be detected by standard electromagnetic meters since those meters may not be fine enough or since the directed energy beams may pass right through the metal detector plates. Also some forms of 4th dimensional properties of radiation and energy man be used in directing forms of radiant energy through metals and other materials in electronic harassment. 4th dimensional properties may not be detected by standard electromagnetic meters. It should be also noted that techniques would have to be developed which could measure the radiation levels, and the affected biological properties (pressure, heat, & electrical) within and around a human organism. The measuring techniques would have to be reliable under difficult circumstances since the accuracy of the measuring equipment could be affected by the suspected harassing directed energy beams. An energy beam could, for instance change the properties of an electrical component such as a magnetic coil in a measuring device. Techniques would have to be developed to calibrate the testing equipment, and to continuously recalibrate the testing equipment during a measurement. Also special shielding might developed to guarantee the accuracy of the testing equipment. Techniques and procedures would have to be developed to measure the environmental variables such as pressure, heat, humidity, natural radiation levels, around a test subject. Also techniques would have to be developed to precisely and accurately measure all the relevant biomedical parameters of test subject over long periods of time. Many of the above techniques may already exist in part from medical physics but these techniques would have to be repackaged and described in manuals which could be used by a physician, law enforcement officer, or an ordinary group of citizens. Current areas of research: 1. Standard biomedical measuring equipment. 2. Standard electromagnetic measuring equipment. 3. Inventive engineering of new types of electronic harassment measuring devices and procedures. Special pieces of equipment that work like a polygraph could be developed which measure several different biomedical parameters (respiration, skin resistance, pulse rate, pulse amplitude, magneto and electro grams, & temperature) at the same time to test for indirect effects of electronic harassment. Radiation measuring meters which use methods to detect radiation that can pass through metals and radiation that jumps around quickly or is 4 dimensional in nature. 4. Magnetic, electrical, & frequency properties of the human body. 5. Radiant auras, holography and 4th dimensional properties of the human body. Kirlian Photography - which captures on film the aura of a person subjected to high frequency. Holographic photography - using high speed film. 6. Psychotronics. [Top of Document] * Research in energy sources such as forms of highly compact portable safe energy to be used to power portable force fields. RHF is interested in researching energy sources & technologies that can be made highly compact to be used to power force fields or directed energy beams, lasers, & mazers to be used in jamming devices. For more information on how high intensity directed energy beams may be used in electronic harassment click on speculation. [Top of Document] * Many materials used to block out ordinary radiation may only block out a small percent of directed high intensity radiation coming from directed energy beams (such as radio frequency beams, mazers, and lasers. A directed energy beam may continually increase the intensity the energy and the radiation transfer rate of energy in the radiation to penetrate materials. It is speculated that radio frequency beams with frequencies in the hundred megahertz or greater range (TV(UHF), Cellular Phone & FM frequencies) may be used in electronic harassment. In order to block out sophisticated tracking and targeting directed energy beams one may need a material which completely (100%) blocks out a high powered directed energy beam and such materials are speculated to exist but are kept top secret. Also it is speculated that multiple directed energy beams may be directed at an object. These energy beams each individually may have their own frequency properties which when combined with the other energy beams at an intersection point may create new frequency patterns through a mixing of frequencies. Two radio frequency beams which may have harmless radio frequency properties separately when combined at an intersection point may have harmful mixing radio frequency properties. Mixed radio frequency beams may be used to simulate sound by changing the pressure (expansion and compression) properties of the gases and liquids in and around the human body. Also mixed radio frequency beams may cary information such as holographic images, and sound waves which may be perceived by the human brain when directed at a human being. There is a U.S. patent, number 5,952,600, which completely explains in detail how two intersecting lasers are used to stun & electrocute people and cars: "This invention relates to weapons and more particularly to a type of non-disabling weapon which may be used by military personnel or law enforcement agents for the temporary immobilization of a target subject or subjects. The invention also relates to muscle tissue involuntary contraction by application of electric current identical to or closely approximating the physiological neuroelectric impulses which control muscle movements. This weapon may further be used to stop an automobile or other vehicle by disabling the electronic circuits which control its engine. U.S. Patent 5,952,600" "Tetanization is the stimulation of muscle tissue by a rapid series of electrical impulses of such frequency as to fuse individual muscle contractions into a single sustained contraction. Tetanization is a well-known phenomenon: see Offner, "Stimulation With Minimum Power," Journal of Neurophysiology, Vol. 9, pp. 387-390, 1946; Dalziel, "Effect of Wave Form on Let-go Currents," AIEE Transactions, Vol. 62, pp. 739-744, 1943; Dalziel and Lee, "Lethal Electrical Currents," IEEE Spectrum, Vol. 6, pp. 44-50, 1969; Dalziel, Ogden, and Abbott, "Effect of Frequency on Let-go Currents," AIEE Transactions, Vol. 62, pp. 745-750, 1943; Kouwenhoven, Hooker and Lotz, "Electrical Shock Effects of Frequency," Electrical Engineering, Vol. 55, pp. 384-386, 1936; and Ferris et al., "Effects of Electrical Shock on the Heart," Electrical Engineering, Vol. 55, pp. 498-515, 1936. U.S. Patent 5,952,600 " "A non-lethal weapon for disabling an engine such as that of a fleeing car by means of a high voltage discharge that perturbs or destroys the electrical circuits. The transmission of the disabling voltage to the distant target is via two channels of electrically conductive air. The conductive channels are created by multi-photon and collisional ionization within the paths of two beams of coherent (laser) or collimated incoherent ultraviolet radiation directed to the target. A single beam may be used when the high voltage source and the target are grounded. The high-voltage current flows from electrodes at the origin of the beams along the channels of free electrons within them. U.S. Patent 5,952,600" The full details of the patent is on line at the US Patent and Trade Mark Office at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html: The engine disabling patent U.S. Patent 5,952,600 is located at: http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?ENG+PATBIB- ALL+0+971730+0+7+107894+OF+1+1+1+PN%2f5952600 Since magnetic induction may be used to create alternating eddy currents in the human body producing joule heating and electricity in the body, it may be possible to use magnetic energy beams in electronic harassment; and, magnetic beams may pass through metals. Furthermore, electrical circuits may create heating and burns on the body. Electromagnetic radiation may be used to create or effect electric circuits in the human body which can cause heating, burns, seizures, organ dysfunctions etc. The directed energy beams used in electronic harassment may not be detected by standard electromagnetic meters since those meters may not be fine enough or since the directed energy beams may pass right through the metal detector plates. Through the use of the principles of the physics of dielectrokinetics, static field detection, dielectrophoresis, electrostatics, electrodynamics, electromagnetics, DC and extremely low frequency AC, it may be possible to detect objects through metals and other materials. Dielectrophoresis is the motion of electrically polarised matter in nonuniform fields Electrophoresis the movement of charged particles . Electric signals at ultra-low frequencies travel right through barriers that absorb or reflect higher frequency energy. Every object has it own weighted charge which is summed with the ambient atmospheric field to create an electric field signature which can be detected by sensors matching the characteristics to a field of opposite polarity. For more information please refer to: Time-Varying Electrostatic Modeling Techniques, David M. Hull , U.S. Army Research Laboratory at http://sensor.sanders.com/public/sensors97...racts/2_rf.html and to Hull, David M., and Steven Vinci. Passive Detection and Noncooperative Target Identification of Helicopters Using Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) Electric Field Sensor. 1998 Army Science Conference Proceedings, June 15-17, 1998 Subatomic particles, Tesla high energy radiant electicity, gravity waves or gravitons may be used in directed energy beams to pass through all known substances at great distances. Sound waves, ultrasound, and infrasouind may be used to pass through most substances which do not have a vacuum. There is a U.S. patent, 5,159,703 number , which completely explains in detail how silent sounds may be used in electronic harassment: "A silent communications system in which nonaural carriers, in the very low or very high audio frequency range or in the adjacent ultrasonic frequency spectrum, are amplitude or frequency modulated with the desired intelligence and propagated acoustically or vibrationally, for inducement into the brain, typically through the use of loudspeakers, earphones or piezoelectric transducers. The modulated carriers may be transmitted directly in real time or may be conveniently recorded and stored on mechanical, magnetic or optical media for delayed or repeated transmission to the listener. " The full details of the patent is on line at the US Patent and Trade Mark Office at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html: The silent subliminal presentation system patent U.S. Patent 5,159,703 is located at: http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?S...=1&u=/netahtml/ srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5159703'.WKU.&OS=PN/5159703&RS=PN/5159703 Cosmic rays may be created on a satellite by plasma creations. A magnetic gauss field compresses waves to compress plasma which creates cosmic particles. These cosmic particles are tuned to an ELF frequency to make a focused beam of cosmic rays. The ELF waves are tuned to the frequencies of the human body and brain which allows the ELF beams to pass through materials. EMF beams may be created by weak force electromagnetic energy/pyramid energy/Telsa's electromagnetic pyramids. Weak force emf is different from strong force emf, since it travels further and penetrates everything and it can not be measured by standard emf devices. A high frequency photograph might show strong emf's on the body. [Top of Document] <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) I swear, this thread is like a visit to bizarro-world. Here we have two of the best-educated men to ever write on the Kennedy assassination throwing food at each other in a cafeteria. If I may be so bold as to insert myself between the warring parties, let me say that, to a disinterested (but fascinated) onlooker, Fetzer's calling Tink a thief for doing what almost any concerned JFK researcher would have done is hitting below the belt, as is Thompson's questioning Fetzer's bravery and patriotism for bowing out of the military when Vietnam was heating up. I fail to see much difference in Fetzer's leaving the Marines to become an academic and Thompson's leaving academia to become a P.I. Both were respectable career choices. People are allowed to make changes in their life to better their station in life and/or increase their happiness, last that I checked.As to the Wellstone crash, I think Evan touches on a good point. Are there OTHER explanations for the crash that haven't been explored? As I understand it, Fetzer's book has two elements to it: one, that Wellstone was murdered for political reasons; and two, that there are high tech weapons that may have been used in the assassination. If there are alternative explanations for part one than two, they should be explored and not viewed as a challenge to Fetzer's basic points. To that end, is there any evidence the pilots were even conscious in the moments before the crash? If not, has anyone explored ways in which they could have been rendered unconscious? Could the smoke of a small electrical fire in the cabin knock them out? Could a remote-control incendiary device be used to achieve this same effect? Has there even been any research into these things? I would bet that somewhere in the libraries of the FBI, the CIA and NTSB, is a report on how planes can be made to crash and look like accidents. Has anyone ever acknowledged such a report exists? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pat, I agree about the bizzaro-world. Ref: concsiousness. No, there is no way to tell if they were concsious or not just prior to impact. Could they have be rendered unconscious? Yes, however these methods would leave detectable traces. Your question about an electrical fire - if the smoke from a fire had rendered them unconscious, then there would have been traces of carbon monoxide (or other substances) in their systems. None were found in the flight crew. From the report: Tissue and fluid specimens from both pilots were transported to the FAA's CivilAerospace Medical Institute (CAMI) for toxicological analysis. The CAMI laboratory performed analysis for a wide range of legal and illegal drugs and the results were negative. The analysis detected no ethanol or carbon monoxide in either of the pilot's blood and tissue specimens. ************ According to the Saint Louis County Medical Examiner's autopsy reports, the cause of death for the pilot, copilot, and all of the passengers was multiple traumatic injuries sustained during impact. Three of the individuals showed evidence of postimpact smoke and soot inhalation. Any incendiary device (such as a enlarged flash-bang) being used to achieve the same effect would also leave detectable traces. Smoke in lungs, residue on surfaces, distortion of airframe, etc. Likewise, any EMP-style weapon - strong enough to disable the crew - would have left traces behind in the body, such as ruptured cells, etc. None were found. Mr Fetzer makes a lot of the flight path and radial they were following. He neglects to mention that 'bending' experienced would have still kept them on a safe flight path to landing. Mr Fetzer mentions the distance from the VOR and the radial were flying. He continually asks "It is interesting that he doesn't explain why they were headed steadily on a bearing of 268, when they should have been headed on a bearing of 276." Now, that sounds reasonable, doesn't it? Problem is, it is not reasonable to say it was caused by an 'EM' weapon of some type. The VOR works by comparing a 'radial' signal to a 'reference' (north) signal. The difference tells you what radial you are on. Let's say the 'reference' signal was somehow altered. Let's say the "radial" signal was somehow altered. Whatever. That means they would think they were on a certain radial (e.g. 268) when they were actually were on another (true) radial (e.g. 276). Explains everything, doesn't it? No. Because the radial still eminates from the VOR! It would simply mean they were flying TOWARDS the VOR further left or right of where they thought they were. If they were following a ground track of 268, the VOR would still indicate that they were crossing various radials, i.e. not flying TOWARDS the VOR but flying to a point left or right of it. If they were following a ground track of 268, it simply shows they were not paying attention to the VOR. Mr Fetzer continually talks about GPS. He has shown no evidence of how this could be 'manipulated', nor any demonstration of understanding how it works. More importantly the aircraft requested, was granted, and flew a VOR approach. The two are totally unrelated. Mr Fetzer says "...although the VOR was slightly out of tolerance, it becomes less and less important as you get closer and closer to the source..". True, the difference between radials decreases - but this makes it harder to maintain the correct radial. Additionally, it reinforces they should have been flying TOWARDS the VOR, not a parallel course (indicating they were not maintaining a proper instrument scan). Finally, lets have a look at another accident report. This was in 1988, in Canada. Another King Air virtually identical to the one in the NTSB report. Flight crews were similar (ATPL and CPL), conducting a MEDEVAC flight, planning an NDB approach (similar to fly although not as accurate as a VOR). "The aircraft struck terrain 1.5nm southwest of the airport." "The aircraft struck the tree-tops in a wings-level attitude" "Post-impact fire destroyed the main fuselage although the empennage sustained very little damage" "The alert pointer for the RADALT was set to 500'. The RADALT should have given the crew a further warning that the aircraft was within 500' of terrain." "..the distraction was sufficent for both pilots to have missed the light and aural warning of the altitude alerter system and the visual system associated with the RADALT." http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:gBB0gCG...%22tsb%22&hl=en This aircraft flew into the ground. The transmission from the flight crew was cut off as the aircraft impacted the ground. Yet again, Mr Fetzer may be right about 'foul play' being used in the accident, but it was NOT as he maintains. My own opinion is that it probably was pilot error. Edited September 24, 2005 by Evan Burton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 For all who have not done so already I urge to look at the thread started by Craig in another forum where Fetzer and Costella's EMP theories are taken apart by people who unlike them know what they are talking about. http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cg...26833989&page=1 Jim, we are still waiting for your theory about the fire and explanation about why the smoke was blue. Are you still going to maintain that the fire was electrical even though there wasn't any electricity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah Thompson Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Thanks, Len, for the link. It's quite amazing what happens when the Fetzer-Costella hogwash is looked at by anyone knowledgeable. Nice going! For all who have not done so already I urge to look at the thread started by Craig in another forum where Fetzer and Costella's EMP theories are taken apart by people who unlike them know what they are talking about.http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cg...26833989&page=1 Jim, we are still waiting for your theory about the fire and explanation about why the smoke was blue. Are you still going to maintain that the fire was electrical even though there wasn't any electricity? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 (edited) Fetzer Score Card # of pilots or aviation experts Fetzer could find who doubt the NTSB's explanation the crash 0 Reasons Fetzer can come up with that since many similar crashes were due to pilot error to doubt that the Wellstone crash was too.. 0 # of fire experts who agree with Fetzer's theories about the fire. 0 # of scientists other that Costella who believe there can be an electrical fire without electricity 0 Costella's qualifications other than his diplomas 0 Evidence that Fetzer has that the fire was pre-impact 0 # of articles from reliable sources that say that operational EM weapons as described by Fetzer exist 0 Direct evidence he has that an EM weapons was used against the plane 0 # of people on the ApolloHoax thread who believe that Costella knows what he is talking about in the EM chapter 0 # of friends, family and co-workers of any of the 8 people who died who believe Fetzer's theories 0 # or reasons Fetzer could come up with as to how Wellstone's death should have helped Coleman 0 Evidence that Fetzer has that agents from Minneapolis arrived less than 2 1/2 hrs. after the crash was discovered 0 Explanations Fetzer has given as to why agents from Minneapolis simply didn't fly to Eveleth if they were in such a hurry. 0 Evidence that the plane was using GPS 0 Evidence cited by Fetzer indicating the gov't can manipulate GPS 0 Explanations Fetzer has given as to why the "manipulation of GPS" effected two planes 500 miles apart but there were no other reports of trouble. 0 # of times it says in the NTSB final report [or any of the other reports] where it says the pilots "lost track of altitude" as Fetzer alleges it does. 0 # of people who disagree with Fetzer's findings that he hasn't insulted 0 Jim instead of just dismissing this message as rubbish come up with examples to prove me wrong. Len PS - I have edited this post to add more 0s and will continue to do so as more occur to me. Edited September 26, 2005 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 Jim The link to the NASA article in the Costella chapter does not work. Please give us a working one. If it is no longer available on-line please attach a copy to your next post. Len Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest James H. Fetzer Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 (edited) Colby misses the forest for the trees, most of which are mere illusions. # of pilots or aviation experts Fetzer could find who doubt the NTSB's explanation the crash 0 No, several are cited in the book, which you may or may not have read. It comes down to the probability that two qualified pilots would have simply lost track of their airspeed and altitude and allowed the plane to crash when there was a loud stall warning system to warn them. The NTSB's own simulations contradicted this result because, using a simu- lator with a weaker engine and flying at abnormally slow speed, they were unable to bring the plane down. Not to mention that the plane was off course, flying the last few minutes along azmuth 268 when it should have been on 276. So they would have had to neglect not only their air speed and altitude but also their CDI and the stall warning alarm. That's quite a lot to swallow, even for the greatest apologist for THE NTSB REPORT. Even Richard Healing, a member of the NTSB team that signed the report, admitted that they had no idea what had caused the crash and were merely speculating. Surely it makes more sense to infer that these things happened to two qualified pilots because the aircraft was no longer under their control than to suppose they were more incompetent than pilot trainees. Plus they may have been lured into the "kill zone" through the manipulation of the directional data. Reasons Fetzer can come up with that since many similar crashes were due to pilot error to doubt that the Wellstone crash was too.. 0 This guy has no idea how many crashes were "due to pilot error" unless he has actually investigated them! Numbers that are fake or fabricated or otherwise inaccurate prove nothing. I have already enumerated many reasons to doubt that this crash was due to "pilot error", to which it may be added that the principal pilot, Richard Conry, had around 5,200 hours of experience, an Air Transport Pilot's license, and had passed his FAA "flight check" just two days before the fatal flight. Accord- ing to the government's own standards, he was highly-qualified to fly this aircraft. Given the passenger list, moreover, there is reason to believe the pilots would have been especially careful and cautious, a crucial difference between this flight and any others you have in mind. They were not "similar" in many respects, some of which were important. Remember, too, this plane was even described by Carol Carmody, the head of the NTSB team that investigated, as the "Cadillac" of small aircraft. # of fire experts who agree with Fetzer's theories about the fire. 0 It doesn't take a "fire expert" to observe that the ignition point for a metal fire is considerably higher than the temperature of a kerosene based fuel fire. Even Burton suggested that an "electrical arc" might have ignited the fire. An electrical fire would have been a predictable outcome of the use of a directed-energy weapon, which not only takes out the electronics but overwhelms the electrical systems of targets it hits. The idea that you could test this hypothesis by connecting a couple of batteries together and failing is ludicrous. The amounts of energy that are created by these devices are immense and could easily start a fire. http://whitts.alioth.net/Pagee7Handling%20...m#anchor1227940 According to whittsflying, there are four kinds of aircraft fires: engine stat, electrical, in-flight, and post-flight. Electrical fires have an acrid smell with possible white smoke. Black smoke warns of oil while fuel makes orange flames. Post-crash fires are more dangerous than the crash itself. Most deaths come from smoke and carbon monoxide inhala- tion. Fire is fueled from gasoine or electrical energy. Black smoke usually indicates gasoline/oil and white smoke plus a distinctive odor is electrical. The smoke from the Wellstone crash was bluish-white, as I have confimed by viewing aerial photos of the scene while it was still burning and as Gary Ulman and various "first responders" have reported. # of scientists other that Costella who believe there can be an electrical fire without electricity 0 You again display your ignorance. Electricity is an elecromagnetic phe- nomenon. Costella not only has a Ph.D. in electromagnetism but an honors degree in electrical engineering as an undergraduate. He is easily the most highly qualified person to ever study this case--the most qualified. An intense electrical surge seems to have ignited a metallic fuselage fire. Costella's qualifications other than his diplomas 0 This is like saying, apart from his knowledge and training, what does he know? But the fact is that he has visited the crash scene, has studied the aircraft manual, has reviewed the reports on which THE NTSB REPORT itself was based, and has co-authored an article that identifies short- comings in THE NTSB REPORT, "The NTSB Failed Wellstone", which is found here, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/...wellstone.shtml. He is the single most knowledgeable expert on the crash, in my opinion. Evidence that Fetzer has that the fire was pre-impact 0 Although the fire, which reduced the fuselage to charcoal, was the most striking feature of the crash, the NTSB never even attmpted to explain it. The use of the phrase, "post-impact", was never justified by its investigation. If everyone was killed on impact, the fact that three of the deceased had smoke in their lungs indicates that the fire had to have been "pre-impact". That possibility is consistent with the evidence. # of articles from reliable sources that say that operational EM weapons as described by Fetzer exist 0 I have put up hundreds of links to articles and studies. One of the most interesting is to the Directed Energy Professional Society, which is con- ducting its eighth annual meeting this year: http://www.deps.org/. Since this is its eighth annual meeting, its first meeting must have been back in 1997, which is highly consistent with an address to Congress presented by a Lieutenant General about the then-current status of research in this area, which is one of many sources we provided in AMERICAN ASSASSINATION. Tremendous progress has been made developing such weapons, where your continued denial of their existence only displays the strength of your bias against taking seriously the possibility that this plane was taken down. Direct evidence he has that an EM weapons was used against the plane 0 The request for "direct evidence", of course, is very clever, since that would require having been on the scene to observe the plane being taken down. We have many indirect indications, including the melting cloud cover (discussed in the study linked above), the odd cell-phone anomaly, garage doors opening spontaneously, the bluish-white smoke, the metallic fire (ignited by a higher temperature than a kerosense-based fire would provide), the lack of a distress call (which would certainly have been appropriate, given the passengers aboard and the wooded, swampy area in which the plane was going down, where the rapid arrival of first respond- ers could make the difference between life and death), the loss of con- trol, the props at idle, the failure to keep on proper course, and such, most of which are not even acknowledged much less explained by the NTSB, but which have high probability if a directed-energy weapon was employed. # of people on the ApolloHoax thread who believe that Costella knows what he is talking about in the EM chapter 0 Your source, "JayUtah", whose background is in mechanical engineering, does not appear to have qualifications that are appropriate to address these issues. You are eager to cite someone with no qualifications in either electromagnetism or electrical engineering as though he were an "expert", while denying the expertise of someone with both a Ph.D. in electromagnetism and an honors undergraduate degree in electrical engin- eering! By now, I think, even those who have not been following this threat carefully should be able to discern the extent of your efforts to bias an objective and scientific analysis by distorting the case. # of friends, family and co-workers of any of the 8 people who died who believe Fetzer's theories 0 I have knowledge in this area that some of the friends and family of some of those who died in the crash do not believe the official account, but I am not in the position to identify them. I can assure you that they exist but, of course, as in the case of directed-energy weapons, you are always able to deny what I am telling you. The directed-energy case is telling. # or reasons Fetzer could come up with as to how Wellstone's death should have helped Coleman 0 The very idea that taking out the opposing party's candidate for the U.S. Senate ten days before the race when he was pulling 7-8 points ahead would not help the party's candidate is so simple-minded as to hardly merit any response. It would make it extremely difficult for the opposition party to regroup. You could also anticipate, under the circumstances, that the memorial service that would predictably take place would include at least some rhetoric encouraging carrying on the dead candidate's platform, goals and ideals, which could be spun against the party. That is exactly what happened and, needless to add, the plan worked and Coleman was elected, a crucial development in gaining control of the U.S. Senate by Republicans. Evidence that Fetzer has that agents from Minneapolis arrived less than 2 1/2 hrs. after the crash was discovered 0 The testimony of Rick Wahlberg, Sheriff of St. Louis County, corroborated by that of Gary Ulman, the Airport Assistant Manager, both of whom were contradicted by Paul McCabe, spokesman for the FBI. These are certainly reliable sources who had no reason to lie, unlike FBI spokesman McCabe. Explanations Fetzer has given as to why agents from Minneapolis simply didn't fly to Eveleth if they were in such a hurry. 0 The airport was temporarily closed, which is standard practice, in case something about the airport had contributed to the crash. Not point in setting up a situation where those investigating the crash also crash! Evidence that the plane was using GPS 0 The NTSB spent hours questioning pilots from Charter Aviation about the possibility that the pilots were making a GPS rather than a VOR approach, which suggests that even the NTSB was taking the possibility seriously. The late-model plane had an advanced avionics package, including a GPS system. The problem is to explain why the plane was heading for landing on the wrong azmuth, 268 rather than 276. The Waukegan pilot's odd GPS experience, which occurred at the same time, suggests that GPS data may have been manipulated to lead the plane into the "kill zone" and kill it. Evidence cited by Fetzer indicating the gov't can manipulate GPS 0 This is a new phenomenon, of course, but that is part of the ingenuity of the plan. Use a weapon of which the public is largely unaware, but which can do the job. Raytheon, which manufactures the plane, is also in the business of manufacturing weapons of these kinds. So knowledge of what it would take would have been readily available to the Depart- ment of Defense. Similarly, I am sure, regarding GPS data, which seems to have been manipulated in the Waukegan case, which is the mirror image of what happened in Eveleth--similar both in direction and in magnitude. It would be incredibly improbable that an event of this kind should be happening "merely by coincidence" at the very same time the Wellstone plane was traveling on a path so closely paralleling the Waukegan case. Explanations Fetzer has given as to why the "manipulation of GPS" effected two planes 500 miles apart but there were no other reports of trouble. 0 It appears to have been a "local" as opposed to "global" phenomenon in which data was affected with a "spill over" effect across state lines. It does not appear to have been a world-wide manipulation, but rather one that was designed for this specific purpose that "spilled over". # of times it says in the NTSB final report [or any of the other reports] where it says the pilots "lost track of altitude" as Fetzer alleges it does. 0 It is interesting that you raise this question, because, while the NTSB said they lost track of their airspeed, that cannot occur without a com- mensurate loss in altitude. So, like the NTSB, you are covering up the true situation, which is that they were losing both airspeed and alti- tude ("But let's just talk about airspeed: after all, it is starting to sound too incredible to be true!") The NTSB's own data supports the inference that the pilots had almost no forward thrust from the props during the last few minutes. So they could maintain altitude and lose airspeed or they could loose altitude and gain airspeed. And if they were still in control, then they also ignored the loud stall warning! By focusing on airspeed, the NTSB glosses over crucial questions about direction: why were the pilots making an approach into the woods instead of the runway? Their own analysis showed the VOR should have guided the plane directly to the runway. And once they broke through the clouds and saw woods instead of runway, why didn't they simply power up for a missed approach? The logical conclusion is that, for some reason, they couldn't. Finally, out of altitude and airspeed, with little or no forward thrust, they turned south into a grove of softer trees, slightly higher than the surrounding swampy areas and attempted an emergency landing. The fuselage survived the drop through the trees, but not the impact with the ground. It burned. The NTSB never explained why such a sequence should happen. # of people who disagree with Fetzer's findings that he hasn't insulted 0 Egad! There must be large numbers with whom I have had no contact. My objections have not been grounded in differences of opinion but in cases like yours where you go out of your way to distort and manipulate with the intention of misleading others about what logic and evidence have to tell us about this case. Most importantly, you have never acknowledged that the NTSB never considered "non-accident" alternatives, because the Attorney General never declared the crash scene to be a crime scene. So the only possibilities the NTSB considered were that something was wrong with the pilots, the plane, or the weather. They eventually cleared the weather and the plane, which left them with the pilots. If the NTSB had considered non-accident alternatives, such as a small bomb, a gas canis- ter, or a high-tech weapon, and had applied the proper principles of rea- soning--in particular, inference to the best explanation--to this case, it might have arrived at very different conclusions. As it happens, the only parties to consider the full range of possible explanations, includ- ing assassination alternatives, are civilians like Christoper Bollyn of americanfreepress, Michael Ruppert of fromthewilderness, Michael Niman of Buffalo State College, Don "Four Arrows" Jacobs of Northern Arizona University, and of course John Costella, the leading expert on the case, and me. But you are not about to admit THE NTSB REPORT neven even con- sidered non-accident alternatives; people might think you were an idiot! Fetzer Score Card# of pilots or aviation experts Fetzer could find who doubt the NTSB's explanation the crash 0 Reasons Fetzer can come up with that since many similar crashes were due to pilot error to doubt that the Wellstone crash was too.. 0 # of fire experts who agree with Fetzer's theories about the fire. 0 # of scientists other that Costella who believe there can be an electrical fire without electricity 0 Costella's qualifications other than his diplomas 0 Evidence that Fetzer has that the fire was pre-impact 0 # of articles from reliable sources that say that operational EM weapons as described by Fetzer exist 0 Direct evidence he has that an EM weapons was used against the plane 0 # of people on the ApolloHoax thread who believe that Costella knows what he is talking about in the EM chapter 0 # of friends, family and co-workers of any of the 8 people who died who believe Fetzer's theories 0 # or reasons Fetzer could come up with as to how Wellstone's death should have helped Coleman 0 Evidence that Fetzer has that agents from Minneapolis arrived less than 2 1/2 hrs. after the crash was discovered 0 Explanations Fetzer has given as to why agents from Minneapolis simply didn't fly to Eveleth if they were in such a hurry. 0 Evidence that the plane was using GPS 0 Evidence cited by Fetzer indicating the gov't can manipulate GPS 0 Explanations Fetzer has given as to why the "manipulation of GPS" effected two planes 500 miles apart but there were no other reports of trouble. 0 # of times it says in the NTSB final report [or any of the other reports] where it says the pilots "lost track of altitude" as Fetzer alleges it does. 0 # of people who disagree with Fetzer's findings that he hasn't insulted 0 Jim instead of just dismissing this message as rubbish come up with examples to prove me wrong. Len PS - I have edited this post to add more 0s and will continue to do so as more occur to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Edited September 27, 2005 by James H. Fetzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 (edited) Lets cut through all the fetzering and go directly to this little Fetzer gem" "An intense electrical surge seems to have ignited a metallic fuselage fire." Just so I understand you here. The fire in the aircraft STARTED in the metallic structure of the aircraft and THEN spread to the other combustables? Correct? Assuming this is correct how would you explain the thousands of aircraft that have been struck by lightning not having their metallic fuselages burst into an uncontrolable fire upon the lightning strike. Are you saying your yet to be produced secret death ray produces more power and heat than a bolt of lightning? I've got to hand it to you Jim. You and Costella, the all purpose expert, have engaged in some mighty handwaving on this point. What is amazing is that there are those silly enough to believe you. Edited September 27, 2005 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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