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Then and Now

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Then and Now

John I could help you out with a lot of these comparisons, providing the 'now' photos. In many places the vegetation has completely taken over. In areas like the hedges by the North Peristyle, the red flowered bushes that appear in the Zapruder film, have been completely removed. The tree that blocks the view in the Zapruder film has also been replaced.

Aside from the vegetation, Dealey's site is quite interesting, as it has to do with moving the lampposts around, and things like that. Emmett Hudson told a surprised Liebeler that signs had been moved - the re-enactment photo he was looking at was I believe [correct me if I am wrong] taken in December of 1963. His testimony was July of 1964. Why move the signs? For credibility, as the Dealey Plaza groundskeeper, I would take Hudson's word on it.

Mr. HUDSON - There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right throught here - them signs was - one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture - I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved the R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.

Mr. LIEBELER - They have? They have moved it?

I was hoping to examine the area at the base of the slope behind the underpass and railyard area for anything that might support Tilson's story, which was found to be bogus by some, on the basis of the McIntyre photo [concrete posts, a lack of a vehicle or tire tracks]. Well - it's my firm belief that most, if not all, of the photos and films were sanitized - so I don't see how anyone can stand firm using those 2 photos to disprove anything - especially when there is a clear cropline in both. Just my opinion.

Anyway, I tried calling Tilson. He is deceased. The area where he allegedly saw a heavy set, middle aged man sliding down the embankment and slamming into a dark car, throwing something in the back, and driving away towards Fort Worth, is now a squalid 'jungle.' The area is so littered with refuse [including human waste], that I hastily took my photo and departed. The same applies to the area by the railroad underpass. Clearly inhabited, and filthy. Not much by way of clues available in 2005 - at least, not without a full scale archeological team working for a week. :o There's the interesting account of the one individual seen running along the tracks with a rifle that I would have liked to have done some digging for - I forget the reference and it's not really important.

Anyway, it would be interesting to compare a plat of Dealey Plaza then, vs now, just to note the differences in the position of the signs, lamp posts, etc. I would really like to see a photo from 11/22/63 or even within a few days, of the area of the walled walkway, to determine if that was indeed a garden of some sort, as per the comments made by Bill Newman.

I often think about running an ad in a Dallas newspaper asking for photos taken in Dealey Plaza on or shortly AFTER 11/22/63.

- lee

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Hi Lee, yes the more images the better. Email? This collage are various low res images ive picked up along the way. I'd imagine they are likely from a series of aerials, press etc. So the images prob exist, the difficulty is getting them. I'll look out for the areas you mentioned.

I've also been looking at the little car park across the railway to the sw. Would have been a quiet discreet area at the time I imagine.

In the collage the aerial photo top right is the best res I've come across. So I'm sure a better copy exists?? It may have been cropped too and the original could show the area your'e after. I'll look thru my collection of maps to see re. signs etc. as I have a memory of someone mapping the changes.

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Hi Lee, yes the more images the better. Email?

Yes - email me your address and I'll burn you a disk. I have over 200 photos I took in Dealey Plaza, during 4 different timeframes [it should fit under 600mb]. I refer to them constantly to give me bearings, despite the many, many changes that have taken place over the past 41 years. Unfortunately I did not spend much time at the south underpass, and I never took the time to take any photos from the south pergola.

Here's a scan of the South Pergola. For anyone not knowing Dealey Plaza too well, it's as if you are looking at a weird mirror image, which... you are. I believe James has a view taken from this location.

- lee

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Hi Lee, yes the more images the better. Email?

Yes - email me your address and I'll burn you a disk. I have over 200 photos I took in Dealey Plaza, during 4 different timeframes [it should fit under 600mb]. I refer to them constantly to give me bearings, despite the many, many changes that have taken place over the past 41 years. Unfortunately I did not spend much time at the south underpass, and I never took the time to take any photos from the south pergola.

Here's a scan of the South Pergola. For anyone not knowing Dealey Plaza too well, it's as if you are looking at a weird mirror image, which... you are. I believe James has a view taken from this location.

- lee

BTW, Lee. The lower right image is of the opening of the triple underpass. No doubt one of a series. The full set could be interesting as it probably shows a lot of bare ground. Hence topological detail.

Edited by John Dolva
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... it's as if you are looking at a weird mirror image, which... you are. I believe James has a view taken from this location.

- lee

I don't know if youv'e noticed. I surprised me when I saw it first. While the southern half of Dealey plaza certainly looks like a mirror image of the northern half, it's not quite so. The south pergola is. But the shape of the street differs and the reflective pool is shorter.

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a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

Edited by John Dolva
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a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes?

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a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes?

Hey Shanet - John's thread, but my 2 cents. Depends upon whether or not Connally sustained the wound - chest entry or back entry. Either way, the trajectory appears flat, IMO - suggesting a shot from ground level. Unless of course it was indeed a chest entry, and the round glance off the rib, and deflected the round on it's flight path. This could explain why the 'entry' wound in the back was determined to have been from a 'tumbling' round.

SBT had an unfortunate consequence on the record. There's multiple references to Connally having sustained a shot to the chest. Plus I can draw up a few 'inferences.' :tomatoes

It's human nature to assume that the information we receive first is valid - it's very difficult to 'unseat the incumbent.'

He was wounded once with a chest shot, this we now know ... uh the ...
[film is going to undergo extensive...uh...alteration]. :lol:

- lee

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a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes?

Hey Shanet, good to see you back on board!

A flurry of shots indeed. I like the 'chewbacca' defense in 'south park' : "it does not make sense". Still, an open mind makes the truth possible.

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a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes?

Hey Shanet - John's thread, but my 2 cents. Depends upon whether or not Connally sustained the wound - chest entry or back entry. Either way, the trajectory appears flat, IMO - suggesting a shot from ground level. Unless of course it was indeed a chest entry, and the round glance off the rib, and deflected the round on it's flight path. This could explain why the 'entry' wound in the back was determined to have been from a 'tumbling' round.

SBT had an unfortunate consequence on the record. There's multiple references to Connally having sustained a shot to the chest. Plus I can draw up a few 'inferences.' :tomatoes

It's human nature to assume that the information we receive first is valid - it's very difficult to 'unseat the incumbent.'

He was wounded once with a chest shot, this we now know ... uh the ...
[film is going to undergo extensive...uh...alteration]. :lol:

- lee

I was talking more about the wrist and leg wounds.

If you have time could you go over the Connally wounds and the debate over them.

I am hazy on the details........

Shanet

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I was talking more about the wrist and leg wounds.

If you have time could you go over the Connally wounds and the debate over them.

I am hazy on the details........

Shanet

OK, Shanet, that goes to show how with all my talk of openmindedness, I was locked into the idea of Connally's wounds being from one bullet. Good point , thank's for that. I haven't yet given Connally's wounds or other than Kennedy's headwounds much thought yet. (i've only been into this a few months, but would be happy to learn more of Connally's wounds). Someone better versed in it than I should kick it off though.

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another view

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I was talking more about the wrist and leg wounds.

If you have time could you go over the Connally wounds and the debate over them.

I am hazy on the details........

Shanet

OK, Shanet, that goes to show how with all my talk of openmindedness, I was locked into the idea of Connally's wounds being from one bullet. Good point , thank's for that. I haven't yet given Connally's wounds or other than Kennedy's headwounds much thought yet. (i've only been into this a few months, but would be happy to learn more of Connally's wounds). Someone better versed in it than I should kick it off though.

John D

Big John Connally got shot up pretty bad.

He really was "spazzing" in the Zapruder film, as you know, very frantic,

he was grimacing, etc. and seemed to be reacting to a number of shots.

It really looks to me in Zapruder that Connally is struck repeatedly between

the Kennedy throat shot / paralysis and the Kennedy fatal headshot......

:)B):):):)

The high angle seemed to correllate with

leg and wrist wounds for a man in the center jump seat of the GG 300.

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