Connellys wounds

[John Dolva]

from 'Vegetation, Buildings' topic

a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes?

Shanet

Depends upon whether or not Connally sustained the wound - chest entry or back entry. Either way, the trajectory appears flat, IMO - suggesting a shot from ground level. Unless of course it was indeed a chest entry, and the round glance off the rib, and deflected the round on it's flight path. This could explain why the 'entry' wound in the back was determined to have been from a 'tumbling' round.

SBT had an unfortunate consequence on the record. There's multiple references to Connally having sustained a shot to the chest. Plus I can draw up a few 'inferences.'

It's human nature to assume that the information we receive first is valid - it's very difficult to 'unseat the incumbent.'

QUOTE

He was wounded once with a chest shot, this we now know ... uh the ...

[film is going to undergo extensive...uh...alteration].

- lee

A flurry of shots indeed. I like the 'chewbacca' defense in 'south park' : "it does not make sense". Still, an open mind makes the truth possible.

John

I was talking more about the wrist and leg wounds.

If you have time could you go over the Connally wounds and the debate over them.

I am hazy on the details........

Shanet

It's going to need it's own thread - I am hazy on it myself.

- lee

OK, Shanet, that goes to show how with all my talk of openmindedness, I was locked into the idea of Connally's wounds being from one bullet. Good point , thank's for that. I haven't yet given Connally's wounds or other than Kennedy's headwounds much thought yet. (i've only been into this a few months, but would be happy to learn more of Connally's wounds). Someone better versed in it than I should kick it off though.

John D

Big John Connally got shot up pretty bad.

He really was "spazzing" in the Zapruder film, as you know, very frantic,

he was grimacing, etc. and seemed to be reacting to a number of shots.

It really looks to me in Zapruder that Connally is struck repeatedly between

the Kennedy throat shot / paralysis and the Kennedy fatal headshot......

The high angle seemed to correllate with

leg and wrist wounds for a man in the center jump seat of the GG 300.

::::::::::::::

Shanet, My thinking on the Connally issue has been peripheral. I have speculated that his 'squirming around' or as you say 'spazzing' was a frantic attempt to see what was going on. The older you get the stiffer the body, skeleton, gets and turning quickly and smoothly can be difficult for some ie. the earnestness of an agile mind trying to get a less agile body to move in unaccustomed ways could account for some of the grimacing and twisting.

Now that you mention it, responses to relatively less traumatic wounds in wrist and thigh and at some point the worse chest shot could also explain it.

Here is a visual summary as I understand it for a single shot. It's an estimate of front top side view if the wounds according to face sheet were to line up. There are inconsistencies as I see it largely in lining up wrist and thigh wound. They seemed to spend a lot of time trying to determine excactly where on the thigh the wound was.

Edited August 9, 2005 by John Dolva

[Pat Speer]

The Connally wounds, by almost everyone's estimation, reflect a 25 degree descent through his body. While many, including Josiah Thompson, have theorized that Connally's back/chest wound came as a result of a shot from the Records Building, many others have theorized he wasn't turned turned far enough to his right to have been hit in his armpit by a bullet fired even from the sniper's nest, and concluded therefore he was hit by a bullet fired from the west end of the TSBD. I believe his wounds align perfectly with a bullet fired from the upper part of the Dal-Tex Building, whose roof by my calculations was exactly 25 degrees above Connally's position at Z-224.

Edited August 1, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Lee Forman]

The Connally wounds, by almost everyone's estimation, reflect a 25 degree descent through his body.  While many, including Josiah Thompson, have theorized that Connally's back/chest wound came as a result of a shot from the Records Building, many others have theorized he wasn't turned turned far enough to his right to have been hit in his armpit by a bullet fired even from the sniper's nest, and concluded therefore he was hit by a bullet fired from the west end of the TSBD.  I believe his wounds align perfectly with a bullet fired from the upper part of the Dal-Tex Building, whose roof by my calculations was exactly 25 degrees above Connally's position at Z-224.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pat,

I believe this is a view taken from the 2nd floor of the DalTex. From www.sammcclung.com/ daltex.html

I added the lines.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

There appears to be confusion [perhaps only on my part?] as to the precise location of the 5cm ragged 'exit' wound. I was under the impression that the bullet 'exited' directly below the right nipple, which would put the angle at something closer to 15 degrees. Robert Shaw put it at 27 degrees.

If we call the chest wound an 'exit' - using z224, where would this shot have come from? Wouldn't Jackie be in the way? I understood that Connally had turned when he received the shot? z224 has him pretty squarely facing front.

Ron Hepler believes that Connally didn't receive his chest wound until as late as z315.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...e/connally.html

Ron Hepler.

That was it. The bullet obviously impacted him under the armpit at frame 315 as he attempted to raise himself from his wife's lap. The first evidence of motion is visible at frame 316. He is driven forward as is shown in frame 321 and hits the back of the front seat at frame 323. He immediately collapses just as Mrs. Connally had described in frame 326. A second violent motion is noticeable at about frame 338 when run at normal speed. This motion is most likely the impact of the wrist shot that then goes on to cause the thigh injury. Evidence of the Governor's wounding after the headshot was noted by Robert Groden in his book, "The Killing of a President. (4) as Shot # 6.

All indications are that the Governor was the victim of the last two shots of what was obviously a four shot volley aimed at the President's head. The first shot of this volley, at frame 312, was apparently only a tangential hit, gently shoving the President's head forward and possibly denting the windshield frame of the limo. The second shot from the Grassy Knoll at frame 313 was a solid impact, driving the President's head violently backward. With JFK's head deflected from its targeted location, the third shot sailed past at frame 315 and into the Governor's back shattering his fifth rib, rupturing his right lung and exiting out of his chest. The last shot, fired at about frame 338, impacts the Governor's wrist, shattering the radius bone with the remains coming to rest in his thigh.

Interesting.

- lee

Edited August 1, 2005 by Lee Forman

[John Dolva]

goodness me, I hope I'm not turning into a lonely nutter?? Oh well, theres quite an error margin I'm sure. But what I did was : read the wc report on connally's wounds and made the image above. Then Pat said 25 degrees so I put the "face on" figure above at 25 degrees. Then I put that on a correctly oriented zf 224, which I then put on a combined background, which I then put on a distortion corrected photo. When I draw a line from connellys thigh wound through his chest wounds, the line seems to go through kennedy's throat and ends up just below the 6'th floor window .........sorry. I feel really bad. Where did I go wrong???*

Anyway, I'm sure there's a rational explanation. Was there any report by Mrs Connally that John was tall and had his knees sticking up?

Like I said there are error margins involved here, and it could very well be from dal tex. Also if the evidence is altered all I may have shown is that they might have done a good job at it.

Edited August 9, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

for closer scrutiny. I used the first image where Kennedy reappeared to estimate him into the zf

Edited August 2, 2005 by John Dolva

[Jack White]

Interesting graphics work, but futile, since the Z film is faked.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Futile? dunno Jack, one could say it shows fake film, xray, reports etc? Independent investigation to further ones education is never futile. Accepting blindly statements of others presented sans supporting evidence is futile, stupid, dangerous even. But all that aside. A look at the relative position of Connally and Kennedy seems to indicate that what appears to line up in fact may not. Indicating again more than one shot. But even so, I arrived at that layout with surprise. It would seem that the evidence as presented by the wc does support a sbt. Operative word is SEEM. I may have made some stupid mistake here. I'm not by any means presenting it as a final statement.

[Lee Forman]

John,

I made an error on the other Connally post. Corrected below. 50% overlay. The correct wound. That doesn't look like a 27 degree angle.

http://www.zimmermanjfk.com/frontmenu_00001f.htm

- lee

[John Dolva]

John,

I made an error on the other Connally post.  Corrected below.  50% overlay.  The correct wound.  That doesn't look like a 27 degree angle.

http://www.zimmermanjfk.com/frontmenu_00001f.htm

- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, Ok, Lee. I used the face sheets and descriptions as reference but the xrays and this image derived from the xrays to locate the wounds. Then taking into account he wasn't sitting straight (noone does?) and the car was on a slope as well. When lining up this outline with Connally in zf242 and plumbing the frame 25 degrees looks about right to me.

Edited August 9, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

wrist and thigh

edit:: plus I used a skeleton to resize all images (some error would come in here, but skeletal proportions tend to be uniform)

Edited August 2, 2005 by John Dolva

[Pat Speer]

wrist and thigh

edit:: plus I used a skeleton to resize all images (some error would come in here, but skeletal proportions tend to be uniform)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, there are sideviews of Connally's wounds in the Warren Report under the name Gregory exhibits. They Initiially depicted the exit wound much lower, but then Dr. Shaw corrected them.

[John Dolva]

I used a standard caucasian body type/skeleton that fits Connally well

to resize all images (some error would come in here, but skeletal proportions tend to be uniform). Plus rotated bones in 3D program to get different views. The line through connallys chest matches the wounds through his wrist and thigh when his body is in the position suggested.

The raised knee was a puzzle till I read Mrs Connally's diary where she wrote :

" after hearing a first shot, Connally turned to his right......to look back....and then wheeled to the left to get another look at the President......wheeled back to the right, crumpling his shoulders to his knees in the most helpless and pitiful position a tall man could be in."

Edited August 9, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

I used a standard caucasian body type/skeleton that fits Connally well

to resize all images (some error would come in here, but skeletal proportions tend to be uniform). Plus rotated bones in 3D program to get different views. The line through connallys chest matches the wounds through his wrist and thigh when his body is in the position suggested.

The raised knee was a puzzle till I read Mrs Connally's diary where she wrote :

" after hearing a first shot, Connally turned to his right......to look back....and then wheeled to the left to get another look at the President......wheeled back to the right, crumpling his shoulders to his knees in the most helpless and pitiful position a tall man could be in."

If my configuration of Connally's wounds is correct:

it appears to me possible that Connally was shot with one bullet from the vicinity of the sixth floor window, and it seems impossible that Kennedy could have been hit with the same bullet. If the shots were as closely spaced as reported then more than one person is guilty of shooting at Kennedy. (and Connally)

[Pat Speer]

My own studies, John, have indicated that it was possible a bullet exiting Kennedy's neck could go on to hit Connally, but not likely that a bullet entering Kennedy's back in the position of the autopsy photos could do so, And NOT CE 399, which was insufficiently damaged to invoke so much damage! Furthermore, when one studies the Z-film, and the positions of the bodies required to make the SBT work, one can see that Connally wasn't over far enough in his seat to have a laser project back from his armpit through Kennedy's throat and into the sniper's nest. When one positions the bodies properly it points back towards the Dal-tex.