Jack S. Martin Sr.

[Daniel Meyer]

I find it interesting to read as follows:

"Martin stated that has visited in the home of David Ferrie and he saw a group of photographs of various Civil Air Patrol cadet groups and in this group he is sure he saw several years ago a photograph of Lee Oswald as a member of one of the classes."

because, IIRC, Oswald is on the periphery of that photo - so, IMHO, for Martin to have noticed him means he was already familiar, that Oswald was notable for other reasons, a topic of conversation, a subject for Banister, who knows - but otherwise I don't think he would recall the presence of a young kid standing innocuously to the side.

as for Martin's lack of reliability, this is an old CIA/Mafia myth; since when did these people recruit from the Boy Scouts? They were both full of sociopaths and crooks and liars of assorted political colors. Another case for deniability.

I believe the now well known photo only surfaced long after Ferrie's death, and was not in Ferrie's possession. There seem to have been other photos that were destroyed.

The known existing photo was publicized in the PBS TV series "Frontline" in an episode profiling Oswald in 1993.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/glimpse/ferrie.html

[Paul Trejo]

I believe the now well known photo only surfaced long after Ferrie's death, and was not in Ferrie's possession. There seem to have been other photos that were destroyed.

The known existing photo was publicized in the PBS TV series "Frontline" in an episode profiling Oswald in 1993.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/glimpse/ferrie.html

Daniel, I read a rumor once that Georgia University library had a FILM showing David Ferrie and Lee Oswald as an adult at the Lake Pontchartrain mercenary training camp for Cuban Exiles in Louisiana, during the summer of 1963. Have you heard of this? Have ever seen any hint or frame of it?

Thanks,

--Paul

[William Kelly]

I believe the now well known photo only surfaced long after Ferrie's death, and was not in Ferrie's possession. There seem to have been other photos that were destroyed.

The known existing photo was publicized in the PBS TV series "Frontline" in an episode profiling Oswald in 1993.

http://www.pbs.org/w...pse/ferrie.html

Daniel, I read a rumor once that Georgia University library had a FILM showing David Ferrie and Lee Oswald as an adult at the Lake Pontchartrain mercenary training camp for Cuban Exiles in Louisiana, during the summer of 1963. Have you heard of this? Have ever seen any hint or frame of it?

Thanks,

--Paul

I believe that an asst. House Select Committee Counsel under Dick Sprague saw the film and he said it was found at Georgetown University library but has since disappeared.

Did anybody answer the question about the Jack Martin who filmed Oswald handing out the leaflets in New Orleans?

Who was he and what became of his film?

If so, I missed it.

BK

JFKcountercoup

[B. A. Copeland]

I'd love to know about that as well. Also, was the Bringuier & Oswald altercation videotaped?

[Stephen Roy]

I'd love to know about that as well. Also, was the Bringuier & Oswald altercation videotaped?

I'm trying to get in touch with Shackelford to follow up on this. I must admit that I'm surprised that I've never seen any other reference to such a film. "Our" Jack S. Martin Sr. does not seem to ever have referred to it in any of his numerous writings.

Videotape: While videotape existed from the mid-1950s, it was only in the form of expensive studio-only machines; portable videotape (ENG-electronic news gathering) was not widely available until the late 1960s at the earliest. Any footage of Oswald and Bringuier would have been on film, 8mm or possibly 16mm. As far as I know, the only moving footage of the encounter was the 8mm home movie by Doyle. Parts of this were shown (I think) in the 1993 PBS special on Oswald. A slightly longer version circulates among collectors. All these versions seem murky and washed-out, appearing to have been shot off a movie screen (instead of through a "telecine").

[Daniel Meyer]

I'd love to know about that as well. Also, was the Bringuier & Oswald altercation videotaped?

I'm trying to get in touch with Shackelford to follow up on this. I must admit that I'm surprised that I've never seen any other reference to such a film. "Our" Jack S. Martin Sr. does not seem to ever have referred to it in any of his numerous writings.

Videotape: While videotape existed from the mid-1950s, it was only in the form of expensive studio-only machines; portable videotape (ENG-electronic news gathering) was not widely available until the late 1960s at the earliest. Any footage of Oswald and Bringuier would have been on film, 8mm or possibly 16mm. As far as I know, the only moving footage of the encounter was the 8mm home movie by Doyle. Parts of this were shown (I think) in the 1993 PBS special on Oswald. A slightly longer version circulates among collectors. All these versions seem murky and washed-out, appearing to have been shot off a movie screen (instead of through a "telecine").

Yes, in the early 1960s New Orleans television stations were still generally using film for out-of-studio footage.

If I recall correctly, the footage of Oswald's in studio interview at WDSU-TV was on video tape. Supposedly the reel was in a box of tapes to be reused (recorded over) when word reached New Orleans that Oswald was now a figure of national interest.

[Paul Trejo]

Daniel, I read a rumor once that Georgia University library had a FILM showing David Ferrie and Lee Oswald as an adult at the Lake Pontchartrain mercenary training camp for Cuban Exiles in Louisiana, during the summer of 1963. Have you heard of this? Have ever seen any hint or frame of it?

Thanks,

--Paul

I believe that an asst. House Select Committee Counsel under Dick Sprague saw the film and he said it was found at Georgetown University library but has since disappeared.

Did anybody answer the question about the Jack Martin who filmed Oswald handing out the leaflets in New Orleans?

Who was he and what became of his film?

If so, I missed it.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill, my source for this interesting item is Martin Shackelford's 1996 listing of films with Lee Harvey Oswald as the subject. Here is an excerpt from that listing. I include not only the "Jack Martin Film" but also the "James Doyle Film" to show that they are not the same film:

<snip>

THE NEW ORLEANS FILMS (by Martin Shackelford):

Oswald's activities in New Orleans attracted the attention of both tourists and a professional cameraman.

2a. The Jack Martin Film (8-9-63) In another of those aforementioned ironic twists, a tourist named Jack Martin was in Dallas in August 1963. His film records his view from the airplane. Next, he visits General Edwin Walker, under whom he had served, allegedly target of an assassination attempt by Lee Oswald in April of that year. The film documents the scene of that attempt: the window through which the shot was fired, the bullet hole, and the wall from behind which it was most likely fired, ending with shots of Walker's flag and mailbox, and a nearby building under construction (allegedly also photographed by Oswald prior to the attempt!) .

Then we see the entrance to a movie theater, cypress trees, a seal at the edge of a pool,and the statue of Andrew Jackson in Lafayette Park in New Orleans. Aroused by a commotion on Canal Street, Martin crossed to see what was happening, and began filming. We see Lee Oswald, leaflets in hand,standing on the sidewalk, being harangued by anti-Castro militants including Carlos Bringuier. Four police officers are seen arriving. The film ends with a view of the yellow leaflets scattered on the sidewalk after Bringuier knocked them out of Oswald's hands, and a brief aerial view of a subdivision. Parts of the film have only been used, to my knowledge, on the French television documentary, "Le Mystere Kennedy." The documentary is available on video, and frames from the film as well, from The Collector's Archives. A still from this film was finally published in Robert Groden's 1995 book, "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald," an essential photo archive on Oswald.

2b. The James Doyle Film (8-9-63) James Doyle was a 16 year old teenager, visiting New Orleans with his family in early August 1963. His film begins in Lafayette Park, New Orleans, and includes a view of the Andrew Jackson statue. He, too, then noticed a commotion along Canal Street, crossed over to investigate, and began filming. Lee Oswald, back to the camera, is talking with Carlos Bringuier, when a police officer arrives, pushes Bringuier aside, and talks with Oswald, who gestures. Oswald is then seen through the crowd, under arrest, obscured, moving to the left, and we see him and the officer at curb side. The film ends with harbor views. To my knowledge, this film has only appeared in one television program, the British "Dispatches: The Day the Dream Died," available (as are frames) from The Collector's Archives or from All That Video (405 Hopkins Court,North Wales PA 19434, phone (213) 361-1365.) A still from this film was also first published in the 1995 Groden book.

<snip>

So, obviously, I want to get hold of (2a) as described by Martin Shackelford above. I myself cannot easily conform myself to the idea that this is not the same Jack Martin that worked for Guy Banister (who, along with General Edwin Walker, was an officer of the Minutemen organization, as well as the JBS).

By showing the shot-up house of General Walker immediately before showing Lee Harvey Oswald posing as an FPCC officer -- that can hardly be a coincidence. It seems that this 'tourist' Jack Martin was attempting to make a direct, visual connection between Walker and Oswald.

Also, this corresponds with the account of Ron Lewis in his book, FLASHBACK: THE UNTOLD STORY OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD (1993), that the Walker shooting was precisely the crime that Banister held over Oswald's head all throughout the summer of 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Edited January 10, 2012 by Paul Trejo

[Daniel Meyer]

[...]

<snip>

THE NEW ORLEANS FILMS (by Martin Shackelford):

Oswald's activities in New Orleans attracted the attention of both tourists and a professional cameraman.

2a. The Jack Martin Film (8-9-63) In another of those aforementioned ironic twists, a tourist named Jack Martin was in Dallas in August 1963. His film records his view from the airplane. Next, he visits General Edwin Walker, under whom he had served, allegedly target of an assassination attempt by Lee Oswald in April of that year. The film documents the scene of that attempt: the window through which the shot was fired, the bullet hole, and the wall from behind which it was most likely fired, ending with shots of Walker's flag and mailbox, and a nearby building under construction (allegedly also photographed by Oswald prior to the attempt!) .

Then we see the entrance to a movie theater, cypress trees, a seal at the edge of a pool,and the statue of Andrew Jackson in Lafayette Park in New Orleans. Aroused by a commotion on Canal Street, Martin crossed to see what was happening, and began filming. We see Lee Oswald, leaflets in hand,standing on the sidewalk, being harangued by anti-Castro militants including Carlos Bringuier. Four police officers are seen arriving. The film ends with a view of the yellow leaflets scattered on the sidewalk after Bringuier knocked them out of Oswald's hands, and a brief aerial view of a subdivision. Parts of the film have only been used, to my knowledge, on the French television documentary, "Le Mystere Kennedy." The documentary is available on video, and frames from the film as well, from The Collector's Archives. A still from this film was finally published in Robert Groden's 1995 book, "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald," an essential photo archive on Oswald.

2b. The James Doyle Film (8-9-63) James Doyle was a 16 year old teenager, visiting New Orleans with his family in early August 1963. His film begins in Lafayette Park, New Orleans, and includes a view of the Andrew Jackson statue. He, too, then noticed a commotion along Canal Street, crossed over to investigate, and began filming. Lee Oswald, back to the camera, is talking with Carlos Bringuier, when a police officer arrives, pushes Bringuier aside, and talks with Oswald, who gestures. Oswald is then seen through the crowd, under arrest, obscured, moving to the left, and we see him and the officer at curb side. The film ends with harbor views. To my knowledge, this film has only appeared in one television program, the British "Dispatches: The Day the Dream Died," available (as are frames) from The Collector's Archives or from All That Video (405 Hopkins Court,North Wales PA 19434, phone (213) 361-1365.) A still from this film was also first published in the 1995 Groden book.

<snip>

So, obviously, I want to get hold of (2a) as described by Martin Shackelford above. I myself cannot easily conform myself to the idea that this is not the same Jack Martin that worked for Guy Banister (who, along with General Edwin Walker, was an officer of the Minutemen organization, as well as the JBS).

By showing the shot-up house of General Walker immediately before showing Lee Harvey Oswald posing as an FPCC officer -- that can hardly be a coincidence. It seems that this 'tourist' Jack Martin was attempting to make a direct, visual connection between Walker and Oswald.

Also, this corresponds with the account of Ron Lewis in his book, FLASHBACK: THE UNTOLD STORY OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD (1993), that the Walker shooting was precisely the crime that Banister held over Oswald's head all throughout the summer of 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Interesting. Though either the name of the park or the statue is wrong. In New Orleans the equestrian statue of Andrew Jackson is in Jackson Square. Lafayette Square has standing statues of Henry Clay and Ben Franklin, and a bust monument of John McDonogh. Both squares are within walking distance of Canal Street, but in opposite directions.

[Stephen Roy]

Yes, in the early 1960s New Orleans television stations were still generally using film for out-of-studio footage.

If I recall correctly, the footage of Oswald's in studio interview at WDSU-TV was on video tape. Supposedly the reel was in a box of tapes to be reused (recorded over) when word reached New Orleans that Oswald was now a figure of national interest.

A few years back, Johann Rush, who worked at WDSU, gave an accounting of all various WDSU and WWL films, including the brief studio interview, and he indicated that it was shot on 16mm film by a cameraman he named (but I don't recall).

[William Kelly]

Daniel, I read a rumor once that Georgia University library had a FILM showing David Ferrie and Lee Oswald as an adult at the Lake Pontchartrain mercenary training camp for Cuban Exiles in Louisiana, during the summer of 1963. Have you heard of this? Have ever seen any hint or frame of it?

Thanks,

--Paul

I believe that an asst. House Select Committee Counsel under Dick Sprague saw the film and he said it was found at Georgetown University library but has since disappeared.

Did anybody answer the question about the Jack Martin who filmed Oswald handing out the leaflets in New Orleans?

Who was he and what became of his film?

If so, I missed it.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill, my source for this interesting item is Martin Shackelford's 1996 listing of films with Lee Harvey Oswald as the subject. Here is an excerpt from that listing. I include not only the "Jack Martin Film" but also the "James Doyle Film" to show that they are not the same film:

<snip>

THE NEW ORLEANS FILMS (by Martin Shackelford):

Oswald's activities in New Orleans attracted the attention of both tourists and a professional cameraman.

2a. The Jack Martin Film (8-9-63) In another of those aforementioned ironic twists, a tourist named Jack Martin was in Dallas in August 1963. His film records his view from the airplane. Next, he visits General Edwin Walker, under whom he had served, allegedly target of an assassination attempt by Lee Oswald in April of that year. The film documents the scene of that attempt: the window through which the shot was fired, the bullet hole, and the wall from behind which it was most likely fired, ending with shots of Walker's flag and mailbox, and a nearby building under construction (allegedly also photographed by Oswald prior to the attempt!) .

Then we see the entrance to a movie theater, cypress trees, a seal at the edge of a pool,and the statue of Andrew Jackson in Lafayette Park in New Orleans. Aroused by a commotion on Canal Street, Martin crossed to see what was happening, and began filming. We see Lee Oswald, leaflets in hand,standing on the sidewalk, being harangued by anti-Castro militants including Carlos Bringuier. Four police officers are seen arriving. The film ends with a view of the yellow leaflets scattered on the sidewalk after Bringuier knocked them out of Oswald's hands, and a brief aerial view of a subdivision. Parts of the film have only been used, to my knowledge, on the French television documentary, "Le Mystere Kennedy." The documentary is available on video, and frames from the film as well, from The Collector's Archives. A still from this film was finally published in Robert Groden's 1995 book, "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald," an essential photo archive on Oswald.

2b. The James Doyle Film (8-9-63) James Doyle was a 16 year old teenager, visiting New Orleans with his family in early August 1963. His film begins in Lafayette Park, New Orleans, and includes a view of the Andrew Jackson statue. He, too, then noticed a commotion along Canal Street, crossed over to investigate, and began filming. Lee Oswald, back to the camera, is talking with Carlos Bringuier, when a police officer arrives, pushes Bringuier aside, and talks with Oswald, who gestures. Oswald is then seen through the crowd, under arrest, obscured, moving to the left, and we see him and the officer at curb side. The film ends with harbor views. To my knowledge, this film has only appeared in one television program, the British "Dispatches: The Day the Dream Died," available (as are frames) from The Collector's Archives or from All That Video (405 Hopkins Court,North Wales PA 19434, phone (213) 361-1365.) A still from this film was also first published in the 1995 Groden book.

<snip>

So, obviously, I want to get hold of (2a) as described by Martin Shackelford above. I myself cannot easily conform myself to the idea that this is not the same Jack Martin that worked for Guy Banister (who, along with General Edwin Walker, was an officer of the Minutemen organization, as well as the JBS).

By showing the shot-up house of General Walker immediately before showing Lee Harvey Oswald posing as an FPCC officer -- that can hardly be a coincidence. It seems that this 'tourist' Jack Martin was attempting to make a direct, visual connection between Walker and Oswald.

Also, this corresponds with the account of Ron Lewis in his book, FLASHBACK: THE UNTOLD STORY OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD (1993), that the Walker shooting was precisely the crime that Banister held over Oswald's head all throughout the summer of 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Wait a minute - doesn't anyone think it the least bit suspicious that Jack Martin - not the Jack Martin who informed on Bannister and Ferrie, or the Jack Martin from Northern Louisiana who was identified by the Secret Service as an early suspect in the assassination, but another Jack Martin filmed Walker in Dallas and then Oswald getting arrested in New Orleans?

Who is this Jack Martin, where is he from and who does he know?

BK

[Guest Tom Scully]

Great question, Bill. Here are some answers.:

Start at .pdf page 12, here from the Weisberg archive.... the author of this Fourth Decade piece on this very subject, wonders if John Martin is the former Superintendent of Safety at the Dallas Terminal Annex Post Office on the south edge of Dealey Plaza, because he was the photographer of "the man in the doorway" and Richard Trask states in a 1995 letter that the Martin who filmed in Dealey Plaza is not the same John Martin who filmed Oswald in new Orleans.

The Superintendent of Safety at the P.O. is actually John Martin, Jr.:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62320&relPageId=100

...and here is the Minnesota, John Martin.:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=9966&relPageId=238

and... distribution and arrest in New Orleans, 8/63, Tho circumstances ...

jfk.hood.edu/Collection/.../W%20Disk/.../File/Item%2015.pdf

[William Kelly]

Thanks for running that down Tom,

So there's four Jack Martins -

The Jack Martin who dropped the dime on Bannister and Ferrie

The John Martin who was wanted by the Dallas Secret Service and sent SAICNO John Rice on wild goose chase

The John Martin who filmed the motorcade and works for the Post Office

The Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald in New Orleans from Minn.

Then there's also Juan Martin, the Urguan gun dealer who was dealing with the Dallas Cubans and knew Odios,

John Martino of Cuban casino and jail fame who also knew Odios,

and the "Mister Martin" who repeatedly called the Carousel looking for Ruby on Thursday night.

It appears we wouldn't have even known about the Jack Martin from Minn. if Harold Weisberg didn't ask for his film.

I'm still interested in the Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald before the assassination, as that seems to be too much of a coincidence for me.

[Paul Trejo]

Thanks for running that down Tom...

I'm still interested in the Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald before the assassination, as that seems to be too much of a coincidence for me.

I'm 100% with you on this, Bill. Frank Sturgis sent letters to Congress attempting to demonstrate that Oswald, the killer of JFK, was a communist and that therefore the USA should immediately invade Cuba.

There was a well-documented right-wing movement to push the USA into a Cuban invasion. The killing of JFK was the central event of the plan which was calculated to enrage the American people and set them in motion.

But the Americans tended to be convinced that the right-wing was behind the JFK assassination.

J. Edgar Hoover was a likely advocate of invading Cuba -- so why didn't he jump on the bandwagon, insofar as he portrayed Oswald as a communist? Hoover insisted that some evidence about Lee Harvey Oswald must be withheld from the American people. At the same time, he refused to call the JFK assassination a communist plot. But how could he be sure? It seems to me that the information Hoover withheld was proof that Oswald was not a 'Lone Gunman'; and that this was not a communist plot; or he would have said so.

If not a communist plot; and not a 'Lone Gunman', then it was a right-wing plot, and Hoover withheld precisely that evidence.

As Jack Ruby tried to tell Earl Warren, the JBS and General Walker sit at the center of this right-wing plot. But Earl Warren responded as though Jack Ruby was speaking nonsense.

My theory is: connecting General Walker with Lee Harvey Oswald is the key to the resolution of the JFK assassination. Not nearly enough research has been conducted on this. Walker openly lied to the Warren Commission, and we have documented proof in the Mary Ferrell archives.

It also seems to me that in the Warren Commission testimony, whenever the topic turned to a possible right-wing plot, the testimony was halted and the principals went off the record for a few minutes, before resuming again.

This film by this "fourth" Jack Martin who visually connects Walker and Oswald was making a historical statement. Did he plan to send it to Congress along with the Frank Sturgis testimony? WHO WAS THIS JACK MARTIN AND WHAT DID HE KNOW?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Edited January 11, 2012 by Paul Trejo

[John Dolva]

I think the answer lies in a consideration of the consequences of a finding that it was indeed a far right militant plot could have ripped the USofA apart from the inside. The homeland struggle was centered already around civil rights. Fonzi in his intro stated all 5 teams, one of which was focused on this angle, found credible reasons to pursue its angle. He choose one, other choose others. The one few choose was this one. I think Warrens first response to the news was to blame them. He knew very well about the JBS from direct experience (impeach earl warren). As it was, the possible Civil War was averted and turned into a decade long struggle. (and we're back to Voltaires time of indefinite extra juducial detention again in the 'free' world. Who's won?

[Paul Trejo]

I think the answer lies in a consideration of the consequences of a finding that it was indeed a far right militant plot could have ripped the USofA apart from the inside. The homeland struggle was centered already around civil rights. Fonzi in his intro stated all 5 teams, one of which was focused on this angle, found credible reasons to pursue its angle. He choose one, other choose others. The one few choose was this one. I think Warrens first response to the news was to blame them. He knew very well about the JBS from direct experience (impeach earl warren). As it was, the possible Civil War was averted and turned into a decade long struggle. (and we're back to Voltaires time of indefinite extra juducial detention again in the 'free' world. Who's won?

Interesting perspective, John. Yet it seems that if the JFK assassination was a far-right militant plot, it was extremely odd in the history of revolution and coup d'etat, because in this case the militants refused to be identified.

Rather than stand up and claim victory over a corrupt tyrant, as any normal revolutionary would have done, these assassination plotters set out a 'patsy' to take the heat, and then slid into the shadows, violently opposing anybody who might identify them.

So, it appears that a proper coup d'etat was not their original purpose. I can only surmise that their original purpose was to shock the USA into invading and occupying Cuba, once the patsy was identified as a commnunist and an officer of the FPCC (Fair Play for Cuba Committee).

When the American people didn't take the bait, the US Government was put on the spot -- they must either play along with the plot and propose an invasion of Cuba (and risk World War Three), or they must identify the perpetrators and risk a Civil War (and so risk World War Three in this way). There was a third alternative - blame everything on the patsy and his mother. By my theory, they took the third alternative.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 11, 2012 by Paul Trejo