Jack S. Martin Sr.

[Guest Tom Scully]

Thanks for running that down Tom,

So there's four Jack Martins -

The Jack Martin who dropped the dime on Bannister and Ferrie

The John Martin who was wanted by the Dallas Secret Service and sent SAICNO John Rice on wild goose chase

The John Martin who filmed the motorcade and works for the Post Office

The Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald in New Orleans from Minn.

Then there's also Juan Martin, the Urguan gun dealer who was dealing with the Dallas Cubans and knew Odios,

John Martino of Cuban casino and jail fame who also knew Odios,

and the "Mister Martin" who repeatedly called the Carousel looking for Ruby on Thursday night.

It appears we wouldn't have even known about the Jack Martin from Minn. if Harold Weisberg didn't ask for his film.

I'm still interested in the Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald before the assassination, as that seems to be too much of a coincidence for me.

Bill,

I don't expect you can get to your Jack Martin, "film" from here, or from anywhere. It would be too coincidental for there to be another besides the one from St. Paul, MN, covered in my last post. What do you have to go on besides this, from Martin Shackelford? Can anyone post relevant frames or film clips reliably attributed to a source matching Shackelford's narrative?

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/3pe.html

2. The New Orleans films

Oswald's activities in New Orleans attracted the attention of both tourists

and a professional cameraman.

2a. The Jack Martin Film (8-9-63)

In another of those aforementioned ironic twists, a tourist named Jack

Martin was in Dallas in August 1963. His film records his view from the

airplane. Next, he visits General Edwin Walker, under whom he had served,

allegedly target of an assassination attempt by Lee Oswald in April of

that year. The film documents the scene of that attempt: the window

through which the shot was fired, the bullet hole, and the wall from

behind which it was most likely fired, ending with shots of Walker's

flag and mailbox, and a nearby building under construction (allegedly

also photographed by Oswald prior to the attempt!) . Then we see the

entrance to a movie theater, cypress trees, a seal at the edge of a pool,

and the statue of Andrew Jackson in Lafayette Park in New Orleans.

Aroused by a commotion on Canal Street, Martin crossed to see what was

happening, and began filming. We see Lee Oswald, leaflets in hand,

standing on the sidewalk, being harangued by anti-Castro militants

including Carlos Bringuier. Four police officers are seen arriving. The

film ends with a view of the yellow leaflets scattered on the sidewalk

after Bringuier knocked them out of Oswald's hands, and a brief aerial

view of a subdivision. Parts of the film have only been used, to my

knowledge, on the French television documentary, "Le Mystere Kennedy."

The documentary is available on video, and frames from the film as well,

from The Collector's Archives. A still from this film was finally

published in Robert Groden's 1995 book, The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald,

an essential photo archive on Oswald.

For there to be another film,aside from the one Harold was dealing with in 1970, you would have to overcome this, unless this kid had a father who had the same name. Is this teenager traveling to Dallas and NOLA, alone, documenting history as it happened? Really?

Minutemen members warned not cooperate with the FBI due to paranoia concerning a "communist takeover:.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=89629&relPageId=5

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=949264

NO TITLE pg 60

Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: Minutemen Club

folder on him & no further activity details Dues paid $2.00 Aug 1963 MARTIN JOHN T 29602 1752 Iglehart Apt 4 St Paul 4 Minnesota Phone Sex M age 17 occupation student Hobbies & skills music coin

RIF#: 124-90116-10157 (01/17/66) FBI#: 105-4921-182

So, it seemed to end up as a duel between the FBI's position vs. the word of, at the time of the incident, a 17 year old, dues paying, right wing extremist (unless he was fronting for a father of the same name.) Also kind of weird that both of these "film makers" were under 18 years of age at the time they made these two historic films. Could it be that General Walker or his followers were using the Martin teenager, but his timing and placement were deemed to blatant by FBI and WC reviewers, even by their science fiction level standards? Why has the former narrative been allowed to linger and be picked up by Jim Marrs, as well? Harold and Martin never got around to noting that the Dallas-NOLA, Martin mystery film was based on the word of a 17 year old minuteman?

distribution and arrest in New Orleans, 8/63, Tho circumstances ...

jfk.hood.edu/Collection/.../W%20Disk/.../File/Item%2015.pdf

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View

... Jim Doyle,. John Martin, WDSU-TV and WWL-TV photographers, and by an ... the Doyle film from Mr. J. Pat Doyle, whose last known address was 1107 S.E. ... NBC's "First Tuesday" handlinz of Army Intelligence activities reminds me of ... I informed of and permitted to examine any other pictures, if he took any. Sincerely,

jfk.hood.edu....

[Paul Trejo]

Bill,

I don't expect you can get to your Jack Martin, "film" from here, or from anywhere. It would be too coincidental for there to be another besides the one from St. Paul, MN, covered in my last post. What do you have to go on besides this, from Martin Shackelford? Can anyone post relevant frames or film clips reliably attributed to a source matching Shackelford's narrative?

<snip>

For there to be another film,aside from the one Harold was dealing with in 1970, you would have to overcome this, unless this kid had a father who had the same name. Is this teenager traveling to Dallas and NOLA, alone, documenting history as it happened? Really?

<snip>

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=949264

NO TITLE pg 60

Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: Minutemen Club

folder on him & no further activity details Dues paid $2.00 Aug 1963 MARTIN JOHN T 29602 1752 Iglehart Apt 4 St Paul 4 Minnesota Phone Sex M age 17 occupation student Hobbies & skills music coin

RIF#: 124-90116-10157 (01/17/66) FBI#: 105-4921-182

So, it seemed to end up as a duel between the FBI's position vs. the word of, at the time of the incident, a 17 year old, dues paying, right wing extremist (unless he was fronting for a father of the same name.) Also kind of weird that both of these "film makers" were under 18 years of age at the time they made these two historic films. Could it be that General Walker or his followers were using the Martin teenager, but his timing and placement were deemed to blatant by FBI and WC reviewers, even by their science fiction level standards? Why has the former narrative been allowed to linger and be picked up by Jim Marrs, as well? Harold and Martin never got around to noting that the Dallas-NOLA, Martin mystery film was based on the word of a 17 year old minuteman?

...

Tom, this is good research. By showing that the John Martin who took the film showing (1) General Walker's shot-up house; and (2) Lee Harvey Oswald being arrested for fighting with Carlos Bringuier, was only a teenager you have increased the odds of a cover-up, IMHO.

Is it an accident that there are four Jack Martins? Was it an accident that there were multiple Lee Oswalds?

It seems to be the modus operandi of Guy Banister to hide his sources by changing their age and address using nothing more than a local telephone directory. "Oh, not that Jack Martin, you must mean this other Jack Martin." And, "oh, not that Lee Oswald, you must mean this other Lee Oswald."

I cannot avoid the suspicion that the Jack Martin who made that footage (which I am itching to view) of Walker and Oswald in the same reel, showing two different but allegedly related 'crimes', was intentionally trying to link Walker and Oswald visually.

If so, the message was that Lee Oswald was a communist nut who was running wild. To what end? It was probably going to be used to prove that JFK's killer was a communist, not a rightist, so the USA should invade Cuba. If so, then the Jack Martin who took this film was probably connected with Guy Banister (who was connected to General Walker through the JBS and the Minutemen), because Banister fervently wished that the USA would invade Cuba.

It would cinch things for me to learn that Jack S. Martin Sr. served in the military under General Edwin Walker, either in World War Two, or Korea, or perhaps only in the 24th Division in Germany.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[William Kelly]

Bill,

I don't expect you can get to your Jack Martin, "film" from here, or from anywhere. It would be too coincidental for there to be another besides the one from St. Paul, MN, covered in my last post. What do you have to go on besides this, from Martin Shackelford? Can anyone post relevant frames or film clips reliably attributed to a source matching Shackelford's narrative?

<snip>

For there to be another film,aside from the one Harold was dealing with in 1970, you would have to overcome this, unless this kid had a father who had the same name. Is this teenager traveling to Dallas and NOLA, alone, documenting history as it happened? Really?

<snip>

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=949264

NO TITLE pg 60

Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: Minutemen Club

folder on him & no further activity details Dues paid $2.00 Aug 1963 MARTIN JOHN T 29602 1752 Iglehart Apt 4 St Paul 4 Minnesota Phone Sex M age 17 occupation student Hobbies & skills music coin

RIF#: 124-90116-10157 (01/17/66) FBI#: 105-4921-182

So, it seemed to end up as a duel between the FBI's position vs. the word of, at the time of the incident, a 17 year old, dues paying, right wing extremist (unless he was fronting for a father of the same name.) Also kind of weird that both of these "film makers" were under 18 years of age at the time they made these two historic films. Could it be that General Walker or his followers were using the Martin teenager, but his timing and placement were deemed to blatant by FBI and WC reviewers, even by their science fiction level standards? Why has the former narrative been allowed to linger and be picked up by Jim Marrs, as well? Harold and Martin never got around to noting that the Dallas-NOLA, Martin mystery film was based on the word of a 17 year old minuteman?

...

Tom, this is good research. By showing that the John Martin who took the film showing (1) General Walker's shot-up house; and (2) Lee Harvey Oswald being arrested for fighting with Carlos Bringuier, was only a teenager you have increased the odds of a cover-up, IMHO.

Is it an accident that there are four Jack Martins? Was it an accident that there were multiple Lee Oswalds?

It seems to be the modus operandi of Guy Banister to hide his sources by changing their age and address using nothing more than a local telephone directory. "Oh, not that Jack Martin, you must mean this other Jack Martin." And, "oh, not that Lee Oswald, you must mean this other Lee Oswald."

I cannot avoid the suspicion that the Jack Martin who made that footage (which I am itching to view) of Walker and Oswald in the same reel, showing two different but allegedly related 'crimes', was intentionally trying to link Walker and Oswald visually.

If so, the message was that Lee Oswald was a communist nut who was running wild. To what end? It was probably going to be used to prove that JFK's killer was a communist, not a rightist, so the USA should invade Cuba. If so, then the Jack Martin who took this film was probably connected with Guy Banister (who was connected to General Walker through the JBS and the Minutemen), because Banister fervently wished that the USA would invade Cuba.

It would cinch things for me to learn that Jack S. Martin Sr. served in the military under General Edwin Walker, either in World War Two, or Korea, or perhaps only in the 24th Division in Germany.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

if the John T. Martin from Minn. was only 17 there's a good chance he is alive today and still has the film, and has some xplainin' to do, as Lucy's Cuban husband would say.

BK

JFKcountercoup

[Stephen Roy]

It would cinch things for me to learn that Jack S. Martin Sr. served in the military under General Edwin Walker, either in World War Two, or Korea, or perhaps only in the 24th Division in Germany.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

I'm still searching for my Martin file (I moved recently, and it's in a box) but I did locate my notes, taken from that file. I wrote that Jack S. Martin Sr. (as Edward Stewart Suggs) "was an unsuccessful candidate for the US Navy but served in the US Army in World War II." More as I re-locate it.

[Paul Trejo]

I'm still searching for my Martin file (I moved recently, and it's in a box) but I did locate my notes, taken from that file. I wrote that Jack S. Martin Sr. (as Edward Stewart Suggs) "was an unsuccessful candidate for the US Navy but served in the US Army in World War II." More as I re-locate it.

Stephen, this is a solid step forward. I appreciate your efforts on this topic. Edwin Walker (later to become a General) also served in the US Army in World War II, and obviously I would like to know if Jack Martin served alongside Edwin Walker in any capacity.

If, for example, it turns out that Jack Martin served under Edwin Walker, then the Jack Martin Film, which is claimed to be produced by somebody who served under Walker's Army command, might have been made by Jack S. Martin Sr.

It could hardly have been made by a teenager who lived at the address given in official documentation.

Thanks again,

--Paul Trejo

[Stephen Roy]

Paul:

I still haven't found my files in the piles of boxes in my barn (it's not a comprehensive Martin file, just collected bits) but I did locate some chronological notes I made. Some of this came from the file and his rap sheet, some probably from Weberman's nodule 24. Weberman notes that Martin (then Edward Stewart Suggs) claimed to have served in Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers in the prewar period, and that he may have served in the Far East theater. As you see, the rap sheet info shows Martin/Suggs seemingly into and out of the service (?). I'll know more when I find the file.

QUOTE ON:

November 6, 1939: ESS unsuccessful candidate for U.S. Naval Intelligence

January 18, 1940: ESS unsuccessful applicant for Santa Monica California Police Department

February 27, 1940: ESS enters U.S. Army at Fort McArthur in California; Air Corps, Pacific, radio work, military intelligence

March 26, 1940: ESS unsuccessful applicant for Hawthorne California Police Department

February 17, 1944: ESS unsuccessful applicant for Memphis Tennessee Police Department

July 28, 1944: ESS unsuccessful applicant for Special Officer with Los Angeles Police Department

QUOTE OFF

[Stephen Roy]

One more odd thing: I've been looking online in the free genealogical files, where one can usually find traces of anybody, and I can't seem to find any trace of Martin having been born Edward Stewart (or Stuart) Suggs in Phoenix AZ on July 1, 1915. I also can't seem to find a death date.

I don't have a paid membership to Ancestry.com. Can someone who does look up Martin (Suggs)?

[Guest Tom Scully]

I'm still searching for my Martin file (I moved recently, and it's in a box) but I did locate my notes, taken from that file. I wrote that Jack S. Martin Sr. (as Edward Stewart Suggs) "was an unsuccessful candidate for the US Navy but served in the US Army in World War II." More as I re-locate it.

Stephen, this is a solid step forward. I appreciate your efforts on this topic. Edwin Walker (later to become a General) also served in the US Army in World War II, and obviously I would like to know if Jack Martin served alongside Edwin Walker in any capacity.

If, for example, it turns out that Jack Martin served under Edwin Walker, then the Jack Martin Film, which is claimed to be produced by somebody who served under Walker's Army command, might have been made by Jack S. Martin Sr.

It could hardly have been made by a teenager who lived at the address given in official documentation.

Thanks again,

--Paul Trejo

Uhhhh....Paul? The kid was registered as a $2.00 paying member of the Minutemen, as of summer, 1963. Years later, he is described as a "student".

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/HW%20Manuscripts/Inside%20the%20Assassination%20Industry/Itai-00.pdf

INSIDE THE ASSASSINATION INDUSTRY

By

Harold Weisberg

© 1998, 2004

18 Garrison Like the FBI Avoided Learning who the Associates Oswald Had in

New Orleans Were

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/HW%20Manuscripts/Inside%20the%20Assassination%20Industry/Itai-18.pdf

.....In late April or early May, 1968, I returned to New Orleans, first stopping off at the upper Mississippi twin cities to speak at the University of Minnesota at Minneapolis and do some radio talk shows there and in St. Paul. The speech was in an afternoon, in a large hall, with the public invited, no admission fee. Among the things I talked about was this Oswald establishing a sort of cover with his

leafletting and picketing. Before I finished speaking, several students told my psychologist friend Gary Schoener, who had invited me, that some nice old ladies literally in tennis shoes, saw two men, Ivy League types, with a poorly-hidden recorder. Gary told me and I then needled them by spelling all names and asking to be stopped if I spoke too rapidly.

During the speech a student who identified himself as John Martin, reported taking amateur movies of Oswald when he was arrested as the result of the fracas started by the ultra-right wing Cuban anti-Castro activist Carlos Bringuier. He undoubtedly had been provoked on purpose by Oswald. I asked Martin if I might make a copy of his film, he agreed, and after the speech and questions Gary drove us to his home. He got the reel and then drove to where the University had a projection booth.

While Martin had captured only a little of that incident, there were many faces in it and I wanted to examine the footage with care. He loaned Gary his film immediately, before we left the small projection room. I had my large attache case with me. I was the only one of our small party with one.

That evening Gary drove me to the airport. I checked my luggage in. He and I watched it go down the Braniff chute. Shortly thereafter I enplaned for Kansas City, Kansas. That night I was to speak to and be asked questions by a small group of professional people including doctors, lawyers and at least one local judge in support of my friend the late Dr. John Nichols' effort to file an FOIA lawsuit

for JFK assassination information. John, a University of Kansas forensic pathologist, was waiting for me at the airport and an hour later we were both still waiting...

368

......But it did seem that someone, most likely the FBI, was quite interested in what I had gotten in

Minneapolis. The one thing that was public knowledge was the film Martin had described as showing

Oswald being arrested in New Orleans. Martin had spoken of it when I was speaking and had said

371

he'd let me see it.

Nothing was missing from my luggage other than the papers, the bills, receipts and matches.

But someone was obviously looking for something. The only possible explanation is that someone

wanted the Martin movies. That was not likely for the pictures he had taken while on a vacation that

began in Dallas and ended in New Orleans, where most of the footage was of the Audubon Zoo and of

bees on flowers.

It was not in my luggage. Nor was it in my pockets or in my attache case that I always carried.

Gary Schoener had it. Someone who had called in on a St. Paul talk show, one of a series I did

almost around the clock, had offered to help. He was a photographer.

Gary had duplicates of the reel made and this photographer made stills from some of the

footage showing Oswald being arrested. Martin's film has different angles on Oswald's face. It had that

additional interest and value.

He also told us that some of it had been removed- of that Oswald sequence. Someone

certainly did not want copies of that Martin film to exist. Even if it could only be surmised what the film could show. And all that it was known to hold was pictures of Oswald being arrested in the Bringuier fracas.

Of the possible reasons for any official interest in this John Martin film the most obvious is that it

could show and Oswald associate, what the government said he never had.

That is why I had a special interest in the Jones printing job for Oswald. My special interest

was generated by two FBI interview reports the FBI gave the Commission, of its interviews of Jones

and his secretary/assistant, Myra Silver. The reason the FBI froze the Secret Service out of that

investigation was apparent in these reports.

372

Edited January 17, 2012 by Tom Scully

[Paul Trejo]

Uhhhh....Paul? The kid was registered as a $2.00 paying member of the Minutemen, as of summer, 1963. Years later, he is described as a "student".

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/HW%20Manuscripts/Inside%20the%20Assassination%20Industry/Itai-00.pdf

INSIDE THE ASSASSINATION INDUSTRY

By

Harold Weisberg

© 1998, 2004

18 Garrison Like the FBI Avoided Learning who the Associates Oswald Had in

New Orleans Were

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/HW%20Manuscripts/Inside%20the%20Assassination%20Industry/Itai-18.pdf

.....In late April or early May, 1968, I returned to New Orleans, first stopping off at the upper Mississippi twin cities to speak at the University of Minnesota at Minneapolis and do some radio talk shows there and in St. Paul. The speech was in an afternoon, in a large hall, with the public invited, no admission fee. Among the things I talked about was this Oswald establishing a sort of cover with his

leafletting and picketing. Before I finished speaking, several students told my psychologist friend Gary Schoener, who had invited me, that some nice old ladies literally in tennis shoes, saw two men, Ivy League types, with a poorly-hidden recorder. Gary told me and I then needled them by spelling all names and asking to be stopped if I spoke too rapidly.

During the speech a student who identified himself as John Martin, reported taking amateur movies of Oswald when he was arrested as the result of the fracas started by the ultra-right wing Cuban anti-Castro activist Carlos Bringuier. He undoubtedly had been provoked on purpose by Oswald. I asked Martin if I might make a copy of his film, he agreed, and after the speech and questions Gary drove us to his home. He got the reel and then drove to where the University had a projection booth.

While Martin had captured only a little of that incident, there were many faces in it and I wanted to examine the footage with care. He loaned Gary his film immediately, before we left the small projection room. I had my large attache case with me. I was the only one of our small party with one.

That evening Gary drove me to the airport. I checked my luggage in. He and I watched it go down the Braniff chute. Shortly thereafter I enplaned for Kansas City, Kansas. That night I was to speak to and be asked questions by a small group of professional people including doctors, lawyers and at least one local judge in support of my friend the late Dr. John Nichols' effort to file an FOIA lawsuit

for JFK assassination information. John, a University of Kansas forensic pathologist, was waiting for me at the airport and an hour later we were both still waiting...

368

......But it did seem that someone, most likely the FBI, was quite interested in what I had gotten in

Minneapolis. The one thing that was public knowledge was the film Martin had described as showing

Oswald being arrested in New Orleans. Martin had spoken of it when I was speaking and had said

371

he'd let me see it.

Nothing was missing from my luggage other than the papers, the bills, receipts and matches.

But someone was obviously looking for something. The only possible explanation is that someone

wanted the Martin movies. That was not likely for the pictures he had taken while on a vacation that

began in Dallas and ended in New Orleans, where most of the footage was of the Audubon Zoo and of

bees on flowers.

It was not in my luggage. Nor was it in my pockets or in my attache case that I always carried.

Gary Schoener had it. Someone who had called in on a St. Paul talk show, one of a series I did

almost around the clock, had offered to help. He was a photographer.

Gary had duplicates of the reel made and this photographer made stills from some of the

footage showing Oswald being arrested. Martin's film has different angles on Oswald's face. It had that

additional interest and value.

He also told us that some of it had been removed- of that Oswald sequence. Someone

certainly did not want copies of that Martin film to exist. Even if it could only be surmised what the film could show. And all that it was known to hold was pictures of Oswald being arrested in the Bringuier fracas.

Of the possible reasons for any official interest in this John Martin film the most obvious is that it

could show and Oswald associate, what the government said he never had.

That is why I had a special interest in the Jones printing job for Oswald. My special interest

was generated by two FBI interview reports the FBI gave the Commission, of its interviews of Jones

and his secretary/assistant, Myra Silver. The reason the FBI froze the Secret Service out of that

investigation was apparent in these reports.

372

Tom, Harold Weisberg does not tell us the age of this fourth Jack (John) Martin in New Orleans in 1968, four and a half years after the JFK assassination.

Let's say, hypothetically, that he was a teenager in 1963. Is it possible that he also served under General Walker in the Army?

I ask this because the description of the film-taker is that he served under General Walker.

The US Army will only accept teenagers who are 18 and 19. But this Jack Martin would have had to serve under General Walker, and THEN be discharged from the Army, and STILL be a teenager in order to qualify as having served under General Walker and also be a teenager in the summer of 1963, when this film was taken.

So, how old was this Jack Martin that Harold Weisberg described in 1968?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Guest Tom Scully]

Paul,

Probably Martin Shackelford was the source of "Martin served under General Walker."

Consider that Martin was not aware that John Martin was a teen member of the Minutemen in summer of 1963, or he would have disclosed that info and possibly altered his description of John Martin of St. Paul, MN.

As it happens, Harold Weisberg left us with a substantial lead. He mentioned the name of his friend who dealt directly with John Martin and his film. (In my last post.) Why not contact this man and possibly clear up your concerns and some of your curiousity?

http://www.walkin.org/contact-us'>http://www.walkin.org/contact-us

http://www.therapyabuse.org/papers.htm

(Scroll down near bottom of page)

....About the author: Gary R. Schoener is a clinical psychologist who has served as the Executive Director of the Walk-In Counseling Center http://www.walkin.org in Minneapolis, Minnesota since 1973. In his private practice, Gary R. Schoener Consulting, he works with and evaluates sexual exploitation victims and offenders. He has serveas a consultant or expert witness in thousands of cases of sexual exploitation by clergy and health care professionals and has consulted to employers and licensing boards. He has provided consultation and training related to sexual exploitation in numerous states and countries as well as preventive training on professional boundaries and clinical supervision. Gary R. Schoener may be contacted at: Walk-In Counseling Center....

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

Probably Martin Shackelford was the source of "Martin served under General Walker."

Consider that Martin was not aware that John Martin was a teen member of the Minutemen in summer of 1963, or he would have disclosed that info and possibly altered his description of John Martin of St. Paul, MN.

As it happens, Harold Weisberg left us with a substantial lead. He mentioned the name of his friend who dealt directly with John Martin and his film. (In my last post.) Why not contact this man and possibly clear up your concerns and some of your curiousity?

http://www.walkin.org/contact-us'>http://www.walkin.org/contact-us

http://www.therapyabuse.org/papers.htm

(Scroll down near bottom of page)

....About the author: Gary R. Schoener is a clinical psychologist who has served as the Executive Director of the Walk-In Counseling Center http://www.walkin.org in Minneapolis, Minnesota since 1973. In his private practice, Gary R. Schoener Consulting, he works with and evaluates sexual exploitation victims and offenders. He has serveas a consultant or expert witness in thousands of cases of sexual exploitation by clergy and health care professionals and has consulted to employers and licensing boards. He has provided consultation and training related to sexual exploitation in numerous states and countries as well as preventive training on professional boundaries and clinical supervision. Gary R. Schoener may be contacted at: Walk-In Counseling Center....

Thanks, Tom. I will do that.

--Paul

[Robert Howard]

So there's four Jack Martins -

The Jack Martin who dropped the dime on Bannister and Ferrie

The John Martin who was wanted by the Dallas Secret Service and sent SAICNO John Rice on wild goose chase

The John Martin who filmed the motorcade and works for the Post Office

The Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald in New Orleans from Minn.

Then there's also Juan Martin, the Urguan gun dealer who was dealing with the Dallas Cubans and knew Odios,

John Martino of Cuban casino and jail fame who also knew Odios,

and the "Mister Martin" who repeatedly called the Carousel looking for Ruby on Thursday night.

It appears we wouldn't have even known about the Jack Martin from Minn. if Harold Weisberg didn't ask for his film.

I'm still interested in the Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald before the assassination, as that seems to be too much of a coincidence for me.

Bill,

I don't expect you can get to your Jack Martin, "film" from here, or from anywhere. It would be too coincidental for there to be another besides the one from St. Paul, MN, covered in my last post. What do you have to go on besides this, from Martin Shackelford? Can anyone post relevant frames or film clips reliably attributed to a source matching Shackelford's narrative?

MARTIN, CRAWFORD C.

Sources: CE 1539; CD 84, pp. 139-141

MARTIN, DELBERT LEE

Sources: CD 7, p. 664

Mary's

Comments: Representative for Denison Mattress Co., 101 W. Owings St., Denison, TX. Display room in Minor Mart Bldg., 2000 Stemmons, Dallas, TX.

MARTIN, DENNIS PATRICK

Sources: CE 2280; CD 837; CD 856, p. 12A

Mary's

Comments: Companion of Marguerita Vea Riegler. In San Francisco on 4/20/64.

MARTIN, S. DOUGLAS

Sources: Who's Who in CIA, Mader, p. 333

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 12/6/26

MARTIN, E. B.

Sources: "ONI", pp. 3, 14

Mary's

Comments: Officer in Charge, District Intelligence Office, Eighth Naval District. Aug 17, 1962, memo to Dir of Naval Intelligence re LHO and (a) DIO 8ND con ltr ser 053 of 11 Jan 1961 to FBI, Dallas, and Sept. 17, 1962, memo to Director of Naval Intelligence re LHO and (a) DIO 8ND conf ltr ser 053 of 11 Jan 1961 to FBI. "Route to 921E."

MARTIN, JOHN -----

Sources: WC Vol 22, p. 345

Mary's

Comments: President of Iron and Junk Handlers Union. On Jan 5, 1940, he shot and killed Leon Cook. After the murder, Martin and his 35-yr-old secretary, Mrs. Gladys Walsh, 409 Walnut, Hindsdale, IL., disappeared. Martin was later freed of murder charge.

MARTIN, JACK S. (ALIAS OF EDWARD STEWARD SUGGS)

Sources: CD 75, pp. 217-220, 301, 309-311; CD 205, p. 586; CIA 1229-514, p. 7; CIA 1357-506; CIA 1359-503; CIA 1430-492Y, p. 2; CIA 1431-492-Z; CIA 1459-492-BB

Mary's

Comments: See Edward S. Suggs. Reported information re David Ferrie to Federal Aviation Agency, Washington.

MARTIN, JACK W.

Sources: CD 87 SS 450, pp. 1-2; CD 87 SS 451, pp. 1-2

Mary's

Comments: A suspect in assassination PRIOR to arrest of LHO on 11/22/63. Son of Ben and Thelma Martin, Goldonna, LA. On 11/22/63: white/male, 25-30, 5' 6", 150 lbs., dark eyes, dark hair, olive complexion, stocky. He has wanted to be a preacher. Belonged to a religious cult. Had been in Texas recently. Secret Service checked on him at Goldonna, LA, and at Natchitoches, LA, 11/22/63 because of remarks he made in Dallas following assassination. Secret Service Agent John W. Rice put out APB on Martin.

MARTIN, JOSEPH JAMES

Sources: CIA 1313-1036-C; CIA Box 2, Folder 16, Doc 02689 (MMF 314); CIA 1315-1050; CIA Box 2, Folder 16 (MMF 313); CIA 1335-1048; CIA Box 2, Folder 16, Doc 02854 (MMF 315-318)

Mary's

Comments: #43847. DOB: April 20, 1913. POB: Cleveland, Ohio. Retired from CIA June 30, 1958. CIA interested in his present location.

MARTIN, JOHN G.

Sources: CE 1387; CD 183, pp. 45-47

END

MARTIN, JOHN JR.

Sources: CD 7, p. 14; CD 205, p. 59; CD 709; CD 897, pp. 50-53; CD 1066, pp. 6-7,9

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 9/21/05. POB: Two Harbors, Minnesota. Wife: Ella M. Superintendent of safety, Room 517, U.S. Post Office Terminal Annex, 207 S. Houston St., Dallas. Witnessed assassination. Took 8 mm color movies of motorcade (25 feet of film). Film was immediately sent to Life Magazine in undeveloped condition. Thought he saw LHO get in cab.

From Dealey Plaza DB

John J Martin

OCCUPATION :

Superintendent of Safety,

U.S. Post Office

LOCATION :

North End of Reflecting Pool

SOURCE OF SHOTS :

Book Depository

NUMBER OF SHOTS :

3

FBI INTERVIEW: March 31, 1964.

CD897

MARTIN, MARY (AKA MARY MARLIN)

Sources: WC Vol 19, p. 75; WC Vol 22, p. 521; WC Vol 25, p. 353, CE 2375; CD 106, p. 64

Mary's

Comments: Name and number in Jack Ruby's old memo book. She saw Jack Ruby at Bryan and Ervay on Nov 15th. Employed by Praetorian Insurance Company.

MARTIN, MURPHY -----

Sources: WC Vol 15, p. 348; Dallas Morning News, Sun Aug 4, 1985, p. 34-A

Mary's

Comments: WFAA announcer in 1959. With ABC in 1963. Dated Carousel Club dancer. (In the Dallas Morning News, Wednesday, April 29, 1998, p. 32-A, there is an obituary for Murphy Martin, born December 12, 1910, died April 27, 1998, at age 87. Graveside services and interment Thursday, April 30, 1998, at Grove Hill Memorial Park with Rev. Jim Dockens officiating.

MARTIN, WILFORD JAMES (JIM)

Sources: WC Vol 25, p. 510; CE 2003, p. 395; CE 2415; CE 3015; CE 3024; CD 1149, pp. 5, 7-8, 10; CD 1215; Rush to Judgment, Lane, 282-284; Forgive My Grief I, Jones, 2-5, 9-10

Mary's

Comments: Attorney at 706 Main Street, Dallas, TX. Friend of George Senator.

MARTIN, JOHN B. (JUAN)

Sources: WC Vol 11, pp. 375, 380; WC Vol 14, p. 420; WC Vol 26, pp. 402, 405, 738, 837, 839; CE 3108; CD 205, pp. 642, 645; CD 854; Whitewash II, Weisberg, 113-115

Mary's

Comments: Friend of Sylvia Odio. Operated a Dallas washateria. Anti-Castro gun-runner. Mrs. C. L. Connell met him with Odio "several months ago" (11/29/63). From Uruguay.

MARTIN, ROLAND J.

Sources: WC Vol 22, pp. 208-209

Mary's

Comments: Wife: Rose. Proprietor of restaurant on Tchoupitoulas where Oswald ate lunch while working for Reily Coffee Co. LHO cashed 11 checks in his restaurant.

SUGGS, AUBREY F.

Sources: Arch P. Kimbrough interview

Mary's Comments: Was standing, with Worrell, on west curb of Houston, 25' north of Main. Witnessed assassination. (He worked for Kimbrough)

END

I will be the first to point out that Mary Ferrell's DB as is the Pope is not infallible, [except in matters involving faith and morals, lol]

But all kidding aside, without sounding pretentious, [hopefully] this post illustrates, I believe, that there are two roads one can take here, just stick to research involving Jack Martin, or, try to dig into the genealogy of the Martin's as well.

I have often made the case that the JFK research community over the decades has made a mistake in not sorting thru the genealogical aspects of assassination related persons; perhaps nothing better illustrates this point better than this very topic.

Why?

Well, as you can see all of these persons are fairly important persons in their own relationship to the assassination story, if even one was related to another you have, ostensibly helped unravel part of the deeper waters of how all of this worked out....I think E.B. Martin and Aubrey Suggs both could be potentially very compelling in the genealogy department, hopefully for obvious reasons....

I would also remind readers that Joan Mellen caught a lot of flak over confusing a John and Jack Martin, or, something to that effect. And I am sure Gary Mack probably knows a lot about who was who in that regard.

Robert

[Paul Trejo]

Gary is a member of this forum. In addition, I live near his clinic, so if you need firsthand conversation, please let me know.

Tom, that's a generous offer, and although I already sent Gary Schoener a question, it would be helpful to hear the questions from two separate media. I told him we're trying to confirm and clarify something Harold Weisberg said that included his name. I also asked if he was the right Gary Schoener.

Many thanks,

--Paul

[William Kelly]

So there's four Jack Martins -

The Jack Martin who dropped the dime on Bannister and Ferrie

The John Martin who was wanted by the Dallas Secret Service and sent SAICNO John Rice on wild goose chase

The John Martin who filmed the motorcade and works for the Post Office

The Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald in New Orleans from Minn.

Then there's also Juan Martin, the Urguan gun dealer who was dealing with the Dallas Cubans and knew Odios,

John Martino of Cuban casino and jail fame who also knew Odios,

and the "Mister Martin" who repeatedly called the Carousel looking for Ruby on Thursday night.

It appears we wouldn't have even known about the Jack Martin from Minn. if Harold Weisberg didn't ask for his film.

I'm still interested in the Jack Martin who filmed Walker and Oswald before the assassination, as that seems to be too much of a coincidence for me.

Bill,

I don't expect you can get to your Jack Martin, "film" from here, or from anywhere. It would be too coincidental for there to be another besides the one from St. Paul, MN, covered in my last post. What do you have to go on besides this, from Martin Shackelford? Can anyone post relevant frames or film clips reliably attributed to a source matching Shackelford's narrative?

MARTIN, CRAWFORD C.

Sources: CE 1539; CD 84, pp. 139-141

MARTIN, DELBERT LEE

Sources: CD 7, p. 664

Mary's

Comments: Representative for Denison Mattress Co., 101 W. Owings St., Denison, TX. Display room in Minor Mart Bldg., 2000 Stemmons, Dallas, TX.

MARTIN, DENNIS PATRICK

Sources: CE 2280; CD 837; CD 856, p. 12A

Mary's

Comments: Companion of Marguerita Vea Riegler. In San Francisco on 4/20/64.

MARTIN, S. DOUGLAS

Sources: Who's Who in CIA, Mader, p. 333

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 12/6/26

MARTIN, E. B.

Sources: "ONI", pp. 3, 14

Mary's

Comments: Officer in Charge, District Intelligence Office, Eighth Naval District. Aug 17, 1962, memo to Dir of Naval Intelligence re LHO and (a) DIO 8ND con ltr ser 053 of 11 Jan 1961 to FBI, Dallas, and Sept. 17, 1962, memo to Director of Naval Intelligence re LHO and (a) DIO 8ND conf ltr ser 053 of 11 Jan 1961 to FBI. "Route to 921E."

MARTIN, JOHN -----

Sources: WC Vol 22, p. 345

Mary's

Comments: President of Iron and Junk Handlers Union. On Jan 5, 1940, he shot and killed Leon Cook. After the murder, Martin and his 35-yr-old secretary, Mrs. Gladys Walsh, 409 Walnut, Hindsdale, IL., disappeared. Martin was later freed of murder charge.

MARTIN, JACK S. (ALIAS OF EDWARD STEWARD SUGGS)

Sources: CD 75, pp. 217-220, 301, 309-311; CD 205, p. 586; CIA 1229-514, p. 7; CIA 1357-506; CIA 1359-503; CIA 1430-492Y, p. 2; CIA 1431-492-Z; CIA 1459-492-BB

Mary's

Comments: See Edward S. Suggs. Reported information re David Ferrie to Federal Aviation Agency, Washington.

MARTIN, JACK W.

Sources: CD 87 SS 450, pp. 1-2; CD 87 SS 451, pp. 1-2

Mary's

Comments: A suspect in assassination PRIOR to arrest of LHO on 11/22/63. Son of Ben and Thelma Martin, Goldonna, LA. On 11/22/63: white/male, 25-30, 5' 6", 150 lbs., dark eyes, dark hair, olive complexion, stocky. He has wanted to be a preacher. Belonged to a religious cult. Had been in Texas recently. Secret Service checked on him at Goldonna, LA, and at Natchitoches, LA, 11/22/63 because of remarks he made in Dallas following assassination. Secret Service Agent John W. Rice put out APB on Martin.

MARTIN, JOSEPH JAMES

Sources: CIA 1313-1036-C; CIA Box 2, Folder 16, Doc 02689 (MMF 314); CIA 1315-1050; CIA Box 2, Folder 16 (MMF 313); CIA 1335-1048; CIA Box 2, Folder 16, Doc 02854 (MMF 315-318)

Mary's

Comments: #43847. DOB: April 20, 1913. POB: Cleveland, Ohio. Retired from CIA June 30, 1958. CIA interested in his present location.

MARTIN, JOHN G.

Sources: CE 1387; CD 183, pp. 45-47

END

MARTIN, JOHN JR.

Sources: CD 7, p. 14; CD 205, p. 59; CD 709; CD 897, pp. 50-53; CD 1066, pp. 6-7,9

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 9/21/05. POB: Two Harbors, Minnesota. Wife: Ella M. Superintendent of safety, Room 517, U.S. Post Office Terminal Annex, 207 S. Houston St., Dallas. Witnessed assassination. Took 8 mm color movies of motorcade (25 feet of film). Film was immediately sent to Life Magazine in undeveloped condition. Thought he saw LHO get in cab.

From Dealey Plaza DB

John J Martin

OCCUPATION :

Superintendent of Safety,

U.S. Post Office

LOCATION :

North End of Reflecting Pool

SOURCE OF SHOTS :

Book Depository

NUMBER OF SHOTS :

3

FBI INTERVIEW: March 31, 1964.

CD897

MARTIN, MARY (AKA MARY MARLIN)

Sources: WC Vol 19, p. 75; WC Vol 22, p. 521; WC Vol 25, p. 353, CE 2375; CD 106, p. 64

Mary's

Comments: Name and number in Jack Ruby's old memo book. She saw Jack Ruby at Bryan and Ervay on Nov 15th. Employed by Praetorian Insurance Company.

MARTIN, MURPHY -----

Sources: WC Vol 15, p. 348; Dallas Morning News, Sun Aug 4, 1985, p. 34-A

Mary's

Comments: WFAA announcer in 1959. With ABC in 1963. Dated Carousel Club dancer. (In the Dallas Morning News, Wednesday, April 29, 1998, p. 32-A, there is an obituary for Murphy Martin, born December 12, 1910, died April 27, 1998, at age 87. Graveside services and interment Thursday, April 30, 1998, at Grove Hill Memorial Park with Rev. Jim Dockens officiating.

MARTIN, WILFORD JAMES (JIM)

Sources: WC Vol 25, p. 510; CE 2003, p. 395; CE 2415; CE 3015; CE 3024; CD 1149, pp. 5, 7-8, 10; CD 1215; Rush to Judgment, Lane, 282-284; Forgive My Grief I, Jones, 2-5, 9-10

Mary's

Comments: Attorney at 706 Main Street, Dallas, TX. Friend of George Senator.

MARTIN, JOHN B. (JUAN)

Sources: WC Vol 11, pp. 375, 380; WC Vol 14, p. 420; WC Vol 26, pp. 402, 405, 738, 837, 839; CE 3108; CD 205, pp. 642, 645; CD 854; Whitewash II, Weisberg, 113-115

Mary's

Comments: Friend of Sylvia Odio. Operated a Dallas washateria. Anti-Castro gun-runner. Mrs. C. L. Connell met him with Odio "several months ago" (11/29/63). From Uruguay.

MARTIN, ROLAND J.

Sources: WC Vol 22, pp. 208-209

Mary's

Comments: Wife: Rose. Proprietor of restaurant on Tchoupitoulas where Oswald ate lunch while working for Reily Coffee Co. LHO cashed 11 checks in his restaurant.

SUGGS, AUBREY F.

Sources: Arch P. Kimbrough interview

Mary's Comments: Was standing, with Worrell, on west curb of Houston, 25' north of Main. Witnessed assassination. (He worked for Kimbrough)

END

I will be the first to point out that Mary Ferrell's DB as is the Pope is not infallible, [except in matters involving faith and morals, lol]

But all kidding aside, without sounding pretentious, [hopefully] this post illustrates, I believe, that there are two roads one can take here, just stick to research involving Jack Martin, or, try to dig into the genealogy of the Martin's as well.

I have often made the case that the JFK research community over the decades has made a mistake in not sorting thru the genealogical aspects of assassination related persons; perhaps nothing better illustrates this point better than this very topic.

Why?

Well, as you can see all of these persons are fairly important persons in their own relationship to the assassination story, if even one was related to another you have, ostensibly helped unravel part of the deeper waters of how all of this worked out....I think E.B. Martin and Aubrey Suggs both could be potentially very compelling in the genealogy department, hopefully for obvious reasons....

I would also remind readers that Joan Mellen caught a lot of flak over confusing a John and Jack Martin, or, something to that effect. And I am sure Gary Mack probably knows a lot about who was who in that regard.

Robert

Yes, Robert, Mary isn't perfect. Her comments about Jack W. Martin indicate that SS SAIC NO John W. Rice put out the APB on JWM when from other reports it is clear that Rice was at the North La. AFB special investigations office when the assassination occurred and he got a call from his NO office saying that Dallas SS wanted info on JWM which Rice followed up on. The APB request on Jack W. Martin came from a SS agent at the Trade Mart.

At least Mary and her friend started the chronology and name file, which is more than the WC or anybody else did.

bk

Edited January 19, 2012 by William Kelly

[Paul Trejo]

Gary Schoener replied to my email this morning. Thought you might like to see his response:

From: Gary Schoener

Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 7:17 AM

To: Paul Trejo

Subject: Re: Seeking the 1968 companion of Harold Weisberg...

Yes, the person is me. I was a longtime friend and co-worker with Harold. The comment about John Martin being a "student" makes me wonder whether my memory is correct. I remember him as late 20's or early 30's, but that was a long time ago. My memory was that we encountered him when he phone a radio station, not at a talk -- he called into a radio show that Harold and I did together. (I had arranged for Harold to speak a the U. of Minnesota, but believe that the radio show which followed was where we heard from him).

Ironically, on that same show a photography professional whose last name was Patsy called in and he ended up taking the Martin film and printing it out. That's how we discovered that LHO appeared to be paying attention and possibly even gesturing to someone else walking parallel to him. One figure in the film was very fat and Harold immediately remarked it looked like Dean Andrews, although there are a ton of fat people in NO and there was no way that you could see his face.

The only things I recall were that John was formerly a right-winger who was a member of the John Birch Society and the Minutemen, but somehow serving under Gen. Edwin Walker in Germany caused him to become a pacifist and have to be dischrged from the army.

The film was taken on a family trip and the other segment on it showed the zoo in NO.

We did go to his home, but I have no idea where that was. I don't even know if it was in Mpls. or St. Paul.

He took it to the FBI who copied it, but did not realize until we examined it that the FBI had returned a copy, not the original. He believed that what they gave back to him was edited but was not 100% sure. He thought some footage was missing.

Gary Schoener