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Jack S. Martin Sr.


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If Gen. Walker had longer designs on LHO, how did he know of him?

BK

Good question, Bill. In my opinion, living in Dallas, which was predominantly right-wing in its politics, and being personally involved in every dominant right-wing organization in Dallas, including the John Birch Society, the National Indignation Committee, the Citizen's Council, the Minutemen, the Billy James Hargis Christian Crusade, and the H.L. Hunt Lifeline radio show, he had his ear close to the ground whenever anything occurred with the words, 'communist' or 'USSR' appeared in a sentence.

He was aware that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Dallas - and he blamed the Kennedy's for their lax security. When somebody shot at him at about 9pm on April 10, 1963, he called the police, and the investigating officer told him that since one of the shots was so close to his head, that it could not have been a 'warning' shot. Such a 'warning' shot had a 50/50 change of killing him, just as a 'kill' shot had a 50/50 chance of missing him. So, the officer concluded, it was an attempted assassination.

According to the Warren Commission, George DeMohrenschildt strongly suspected Oswald of the shooting after visiting the Oswalds late Saturday night, before Easter Sunday. As a ruse they brought baby June a toy bunny. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt searched their small apartment under the ruse of admiring it, and spotted a rifle with a scope on it. George DeMohrenschildt made a joke about shooting at General Walker, and both Lee and Marina froze, with a stunned look on their faces. Then George laughed out loud, and everybody laughed, and the DeMohrenschildts soon left, never to see the Oswald's again. The next day George DeMohrenschildt told Mr. and Mrs. Igor Voshinin what he suspected; something they themselves already suspected. Mrs. Voshinin immediately called the FBI.

Now, I believe it is normal protocol to inform a victim of an attempted killing about any suspects they learn about in their investigations. So I believe that the FBI told General Walker, on or about April 15, 1963, that Oswald was a suspect in this shooting.

As a committed righist, General Walker would have deduced that Oswald, a known communist, under the lax security of the Kennedy's, represented a communist plot to kill him. Only six months prior to this, Robert Kennedy ordered the psychiatric incarceration of General Walker. Walker would put nothing bizarre past the Kennedys.

Anyway, Bill, that's how and when General Walker found out - according to reason. Now, until the end of his days he wrote articles blaming Robert Kennedy for this shooting, and believed that Robert Kennedy put Oswald up to the shooting. This is in print in multiple places.

Everything would be normal, in my opinion, except that for some odd reason General Edwin Walker chose to lie to the Warren Commission about this. When asked point blank about the time he learned about Oswald being his April shooter, Walker said he never heard about it until Marina announced it to the FBI in December!

He didn't have to lie - he could have told the truth. But Walker chose to lie to the Warren Commission. This is our big break, in my opinion.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

I believe that DeMohrenschildt told others in the White Russian Community of his suspicion of Oswald taking the pot shot a Walker, but Hosty, the FBI agent investigating the case, did not hear that Oswald was a suspect because he already had Oswald as a potential national security case - in keeping tabs on him upon his return from USSR - What does Hosty say about this?

Within days of the assassination the director of psychology at the Springfield (MO) mental hospital where Walker was incarcerated and tested, began questioning the other patients there who had threatened the life of the president. There were about a dozen, and in reviewing their backgrounds, most of them, if not all of them, were military or ex-military, and certifiably crazy.

Both DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt talked with Oswald about Walker and suggested that he be assassinated, specifically mentioning the July 1944 Valkyrie Plot to kill Hitler, and saying how it wold have changed history if it had succeeded. They did this at the same time the CIA - Cuban Desk (under Des FitzGerald) were trying to adapt the Valkyrie plan to be used against Castro (per Sept. 24, 1963 briefing to JCS). Is that just a coincidence? Or is there a direct line from the chair of the JCS at that time - LeMay-to-Krulak-DesFitz-CIA-JMWAVE-DeMohrenschildt-Schmidt-Oswald?

And what about the Brothers Schmidt? No relation to Volkmar, but they served under Walker in Germany, returned to USA, went to Dallas to take over conservative organizations, got job with Walker and were involved in the shooting with Oswald? There's got to be more there somewhere.

If Walker made any statement about Oswald BEFORE the assassination, I haven't seen evidence of it - and afterwards we hear from the German newspaper and Walker's claim that Oswald was arrested and freed by RFK, and then Marina cherps in, and even Dr./Col. Jose Rivera (USAR) in DC knows Oswald shot at Walker, but we only hear about this stuff AFTER the assassination.

Nor do I believe that Walker had the where with all to concoct the Dealey Plaza Operation, frame Oswald, have him killed and cover-up anything after the fact. Walker's a player, a mark, just like Demohrenschildt, and they played their roles and then got off the stage.

BK

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Guest Tom Scully

Paul,

I posted a link to the page of the Minutemen membership list earlier in this thread. It shows Martin with the same address as on the FBI report about his film. it shows his age as 17 in 1963. you post his age as 23, you have stronger support for making Martin six years older than the info I posted? From what source?

Bill, Jim Root established that Walker could have been a passenger with LHO on the flight leading to entry into the Soviet Union and tbat the CIA provided the flight's ticket price to the WC and probably disappeared the passenger manifest.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2544&st=0&p=15624entry15624

Edited by Tom Scully
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Paul,

I posted a link to the page of the Minutemen membership list earlier in this thread. It shows Martin with the same address as on the FBI report about his film. it shows his age as 17 in 1963. you post his age as 23, you have stronger support for making Martin six years older than the info I posted? From what source?

Bill, Jim Root established that Walker could have been a passenger with LHO on the flight leading to entry into the Soviet Union and tbat the CIA provided the flight's ticket price to the WC and probably disappeared the passenger manifest.

Tom, after I saw your link, I also pursued your advice to seek out the psychologist, Gary Schoener. I contacted him and asked him how old John Martin was when he and Harold Weisberg met him in 1968. Dr. Schoener said he appeared to be 28-30 years old. That was by appearances. This was in 1968. Now, if he was 28 in 1968, then he would have been 23 in 1963, obviously. So, that's where I got the age of 23 - from Gary Schoener's personal recollections.

Now, if he had been 17 in 1963, then he would have been 23 in 1968, when Weisberg and Schoener met him. Not too many young men would look around 30 years old when they are 23, but it's not impossible. Nor is it impossible for a 17 year old boy to be a member of the John Birch Society, and also a member of the Minnesota Minutemen sharpshooters.

However, it is unlikely that a 17-year old boy would have already served in the Army under General Walker; and then flown to Walker's home to take photographs of the bullet holes that almost killed him. Clearly this Jack (John) Martin who made this film felt close enough to General Walker to care about the bullet holes in his home -- and enough to receive an invitation to fly to Dallas to film those bullet holes.

The attachment of this young man to General Walker seems to me to fit the profile of somebody in his early 20's (as Gary Schoener recollects) rather than somebody still in high school.

Nevertheless - it is not, strictly speaking, impossible. But we must posit that Martin Shackelford was mistaken in saying that this John Martin served in the Army under General Walker (and then honorably discharged, and then arrived at Walker's home in 1963, and still be 17 years old).

Still, we might consider that, just as Lee Harvey Oswald served as a teenager under David Ferrie as a cadet, it might be possible that this teenage John Martin served as a cadet in some capacity under General Walker. In that case Martin Shackelford could still be partially correct.

The evidence is still slightly askew, it appears to me. To defend the FBI report, we would have to doubt Shackelford's Army claim, and question the eyesight of Gary Schoener. To defend Shackelford and Schoener, we have to question the FBI report.

Dr. Schoener said he was willing to contact John Martin again -- but despairs that there are simply too many John Martins in America to make that search viable.

All best,

--Paul

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I believe that DeMohrenschildt told others in the White Russian Community of his suspicion of Oswald taking the pot shot a Walker, but Hosty, the FBI agent investigating the case, did not hear that Oswald was a suspect because he already had Oswald as a potential national security case - in keeping tabs on him upon his return from USSR - What does Hosty say about this?

...

And what about the Brothers Schmidt? No relation to Volkmar, but they served under Walker in Germany, returned to USA, went to Dallas to take over conservative organizations, got job with Walker and were involved in the shooting with Oswald? There's got to be more there somewhere.

If Walker made any statement about Oswald BEFORE the assassination, I haven't seen evidence of it - and afterwards we hear from the German newspaper and Walker's claim that Oswald was arrested and freed by RFK, and then Marina cherps in, and even Dr./Col. Jose Rivera (USAR) in DC knows Oswald shot at Walker, but we only hear about this stuff AFTER the assassination.

Nor do I believe that Walker had the where with all to concoct the Dealey Plaza Operation, frame Oswald, have him killed and cover-up anything after the fact. Walker's a player, a mark, just like Demohrenschildt, and they played their roles and then got off the stage.

BK

Bill, here are my opinions and findings:

1. Hosty's report and his book are so devoid of useful information that one can only suspect him of being part of a cover-up. I have had that position for many years now.

2. Dick Russell and others have noted that FBI agent Hosty was a bridge partner for General Walker's business partner, Robert Allen Surrey. Walker's American Eagle Publishing company was run out of Walker's living room, and Robert Allen Surrey, who also testified for the Warren Commission, was almost a daily companion.

3. If (and only if) General Walker was the center of a plot to make Oswald into a patsy as punishment for the April shooting, then his publishing partner, Robert Allen Surrey, would almost certainly have heard about it, and would have discussed this with James Hosty over bridge; that seems like a good bet.

4. So, if Hosty knew about a plot to make Oswald a patsy, then Hosty was part of that conspiracy. If so, then he sure wouldn't let that leak out in any FBI reports.

5. As for the Schmidt brothers, I know that they served in Germany while Walker was there; but I don't think they served in the 24th Infantry Division in Augsburg under Walker. Yet I believe they were in the same vicinity, because Larrie Schmidt (along with mentor, General Charles Willoughby, who used to serve under General MacArthur) were associated with the newspaper OVERSEAS WEEKLY, and General Walker's Pro-Blue program severely criticized the OVERSEAS WEEKLY for having swimsuit ladies on every fourth page.

6. In response, the OVERSEAS WEEKLY staff (under young Larrie Schmidt) decided to complain to the White House that General Walker was 'indoctrinating' his troops with John Birch Society propaganda.

7. Also, according to Dick Russell, Larrie and Bob Schmidt drove a tan Ford sedan, and they drove Oswald to General Walker's house on April 10th. They took another rifle, too, and two rifles shot at Walker. They hit the window frame, and also missed Walker's head by inches.

8. Russell's story confirms eyewitness reports from neighbors to the police that night. It also confirms Walker's claim that bullet fragments he found at his house don't match a Manlicher-Carcano.

9. Now, Bill, you made an important statement: "If Walker made any statement about Oswald BEFORE the assassination, I haven't seen evidence of it." Dick Russell also wondered about that so much that he made a second interview of General Walker, more than 10 years after his first interview, just to ask that same question.

10. Predictably, Walker denied any knowledge of Oswald being the April shooter before December, 1963, when Marina announced it to the world. But that was the same lie he told the Warren Commission.

11. However, Dick Russell found at least one person who remembered differently. The assistant of H.L. Hunt sometimes overheard conversations between H.L. Hunt and General Walker when they spoke face to face. He told Dick Russell that he *definitely* remembers them speaking about Oswald *before* the JFK assassination.

12. Gerry Patrick Hemming (a former member of this Forum) also said that at the Cuban Exile training camp at Lake Pontchartrain, he saw General Edwin Walker there. Hemming also said he saw Lee Harvey Oswald there on another occasion.

13. This raised a basic question for me - General Walker was a national speech-maker and radio personality and very loud after he resigned from the Military in order to insult JFK. Walker was even louder after he was released from the mental institution with a clean bill of health, and RFK dropped all charges against him for the Mississippi riots.

14. However, after his April 10th shooting, General Walker seems to vanish into the woodwork! Where did he go?

15. I think it's possible that he kept a lower profile and dealt increasingly with the rightist underground, and that would have included people at Lake Pontchartrain -- with members like Carlos Bringuier, "Angel and Leopoldo", Roscoe White, Eladio del Valle, David Ferrie and Guy Banister.

16. Perhaps, also, as Harry Dean (another member of this Forum) suggests, Guy Gabaldon, famous war hero, was also at Lake Pontchartrain, dealing with the same rightist underground.

17. Finally, Bill, an ex-General would still have a lot of contacts in the Pentagon, and could call in many war time favors.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Guest Tom Scully

Thank you, Paul. BTW, did you bring to the attention of Gary Schoener the Martin age info in the Minutemen membership list page describing Martin as age 17 ? If so, what was Schoener's reaction?

As far as I know, the only two sources for Martin's middle initial, a "T" are from the Minutemen membership list and in a 1969 memo attributed to Schoener.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Williamson%20Billy/Item%2001.pdf

My problems are that Schoener and Weisberg seem to have put little value on what was recorded on John Martin's film, despite Weisberg's asserting that his luggage on the flight from Minnesota, just after he and Schoener received a copy of Martin's film, was intercepted long enough to thoroughly search Weisberg's belongings and to methodically destroy his typewriter. Weisberg suspected this luggage interception was motivated by an assumption of whoever was tracking him, that the copy of the Martin film was in Weisberg's luggage.

Where is Schoener's copy of the film, or his printout of each frame of the film? Can he locate or share any of it?

You are willing to advance Martin's age by six years, based solely on Schoener's recollection of a subject he has exhibited almost no interest in for 42 years, willing to trump the age on a written record?

Did you read my recent post, especially the Mary Ferrell links below the 15 Feb, 2008 piece authored by Ronald R. Williams? At the end of his 2008 piece I linked to, Williams cites info at least three times, contained in emails from Gary Schoener, and from an interview with Schoener.

Read the MaryFerrell.org pages I linked to,

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2487&view=findpost&p=244863

and tell me with confidence that Williams was on firm footing in relying so heavily on Schoener, at least in that particular subject matter. 42 years is a long span of time. I am not willing, supported by what I am sharing here with you, to move from the documented age of 17 of John T. Martin, to Schoener's four decades old recollection.

Do you think Ronald Williams wrote that 2008 piece, knowing about the Kabuki dance of strange bedfellows, Rothermel, Weisberg, and Schoener? I have no skin in this game, Paul, but I don't think Schoener or Weisberg saw any "there", there, in the matter of evidentiary leads contained in the John T. Martin film, or that is what they wanted everyone to believe. Sorry, but their behavior and actions warrant healthy skepticism, at least in the matter Ronald Williams wrote about, and in this matter.

And Paul, where does the WC come by the figure of $111.90 for LHO's airplane fare, and why would the notoriously frugal LHO pay that fare, since it was more expensive than if he chose a route via Paris, instead? (Thanks to Jim Root and Greg Parker) http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2544&st=0&p=15624entry15624

...and

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3908&st=15&p=29134entry29134

Edited by Tom Scully
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Is there a record that Mrs. Voshinin told the FBI that Oswald was suspected (by DeMohrenschildt) of shooting Walker?

Stephen, I got the account from Dick Russell's book, The Man Who Knew Too Much. Russell quotes Mrs. Natasha Voshinin on page 317-318, speaking of George DeMohrenschildt:

"George said, 'that scoundrel took a potshot at General Walker. Of course Walker is a stinker, but stinkers have a right to live.' Then he told us something about the rifle. But Igor and I felt Oswald had something to do with the CIA. Anyway, I immediately delivered this information [from DeMohrenschildt] to the FBI."

The footnote (55) is on page 763, and it reads: "Voshinin on de Mohrenschildt/reporting to FBI: author's interview (April 5, 1992)

All best,

--Paul

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...If Walker made any statement about Oswald BEFORE the assassination, I haven't seen evidence of it...

BK

Bill, in addition to the story about H.L. Hunt's assistant (John Curington) who heard Walker and Hunt talking about Oswald *before* the JFK assassination (this story is on page 317 of Dick Russell's book, TMWKTM) there is a more important incident that I want to share with everybody.

It appears first in the Warren Commission testimony of Edwin Walker, when he is questioned by attorney Liebeler. Liebeler possessed FBI evidence that Walker spoke with German newspaperman Helmut Muench before 7am on Sat23Nov63, less than 24 hours after JFK was killed, to announce that the man who killed JFK was the same man who tried to kill Walker on Wed10Apr63. This story turned into a full blown interview with Haslo Thorstein starting at 7am that same day (the paper was the Deutsche NationalZeitung) and it was published in the Sunday edition, on Sun29Nov63.

Walker pretended that he never heard of Helmut Muench, and said he didn't speak German, and tried to change the topic. Eventually he wiggled out of it, and that was the end of it.

There are many implications of this testimony, but the main one I wish to make is that Edwin Walker demonstrated -- nearly a week before Marina told the world that Oswald was Walker's shooter -- that he already knew that Oswald was his shooter.

This documentation is also preserved within the Mary Ferrell Foundation web site. I believe it is part of a documented proof that Walker lied about Oswald - that Walker was hiding something important.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

P.S. I have about 180MB of PDF files to upload on this topic, but that exceeds our limit. If anybody knows where I can post them for everybody's access, I'll try that.

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Is there a record that Mrs. Voshinin told the FBI that Oswald was suspected (by DeMohrenschildt) of shooting Walker?

Stephen, I got the account from Dick Russell's book, The Man Who Knew Too Much. Russell quotes Mrs. Natasha Voshinin on page 317-318, speaking of George DeMohrenschildt:

"George said, 'that scoundrel took a potshot at General Walker. Of course Walker is a stinker, but stinkers have a right to live.' Then he told us something about the rifle. But Igor and I felt Oswald had something to do with the CIA. Anyway, I immediately delivered this information [from DeMohrenschildt] to the FBI."

The footnote (55) is on page 763, and it reads: "Voshinin on de Mohrenschildt/reporting to FBI: author's interview (April 5, 1992)

All best,

--Paul

Thanks for checking, Paul. My Russell book was lost in a flood.

So I guess we have Mrs V, which carries some weight, but no FBI document or reference to corroborate it.

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Thank you, Paul. BTW, did you bring to the attention of Gary Schoener the Martin age info in the Minutemen membership list page describing Martin as age 17 ? If so, what was Schoener's reaction?

As far as I know, the only two sources for Martin's middle initial, a "T" are from the Minutemen membership list and in a 1969 memo attributed to Schoener.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Williamson%20Billy/Item%2001.pdf

...

Where is Schoener's copy of the film, or his printout of each frame of the film? Can he locate or share any of it?

You are willing to advance Martin's age by six years, based solely on Schoener's recollection of a subject he has exhibited almost no interest in for 42 years, willing to trump the age on a written record? ...

Tom, I asked Gary Schoener for more information, and he kindly replied. Here are the questions I asked him:

* Would you be willing to share the Jack Martin Film with us? Or are you able to convert it to DVD format and show it on Youtube?

* Do you find it odd that a home movie documents both the Walker shooting and the Oswald NOLA arrest in the same footage?

* Also, about your estimate of John Martin’s age; what about FBI reports that give his age as 17 years in 1963. That would make him 23 in 1968, when you saw him. Is it possible, Dr. Schoener, that the John Martin you met in 1968 was only 23 years old?

He kindly replied promptly as follows:

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Schoener

Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:05 PM

To: Paul Trejo

Subject: Re: Seeking the 1968 companion of Harold Weisberg...

I was the one who provided the copy to the Collector's Archive many years ago.

To be honest, the meeting with John Martin was 44 years ago and I cannot be sure of my memory. I was myself 24 and I thought he was older -- but we didn't ask him his age...

If I can find (1) the film and/or (2) the printout of all the frames, I will be glad to supply copies...I will make an effort to find them, but all of that stuff is buried so I'll have to guess right to find it.

Gary

P.S. I have a ton of stuff and to be honest a lot of it is buried...[Due to unforeseen circumstances on 7/4/68] some friends and I had no choice but to stuff the files into a huge number of boxes. Although at various times in the 1970's I found things Jim Garrison wanted or the joint congressional committee wanted, many things are still buried...Hal Weisberg did not think that he was any of the other "Jack" or "John martins" in the case...On occasion I had to go to Harold Weisberg or Paul Hoch or Hal Verb for copies of things I had originally located in the archives. Weisberg's archive, I am sure, has the film and the printouts and our memos from back then.

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The Dallas Cinema Associates Films, thread here on the forum were my baby, in the sense that I transcribed a large part of them and placed the excerpts here, so I can claim to have a little bit of insight into all the Martin personages....The John Martin whose clip is on youtube, just seemed eerie as all get out when I was looking into his history, anyone who digs into that cranny shouldn't come away disappointed.....

May 28, 1964

On Dec. 11, 1963 the Dallas Division advised that John Martin, Superintendent of Safety, United States Post Office, Dallas Texas took a roll of 8 mm color movies of the Presidential motorcade on November 22, 1963. According to Martin, the movies were taken of the motorcade as it neared the spot where President Kennedy was assassinated and he thought possibly he had a shot of the window of the Texas School Book Depository from which the fatal shots were fired. According to information available to the Dallas Division, the film was in the possession of Life Magazine, New York City.

On December 17, 1963, the film taken by Martin was obtained by SA Robert J. Lawson from Dick Pollard, Time and Life, Inc., 50th Street and 6th Avenue, New York City.

On the same date the film was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, D.C. for review

John Martin, Jr., Superintendent of Safety, Room 517, United States Post Office, Terminal Annex, 207 South Houston Street, Dallas, Texas, RI 9-3181, advised he resides at 9846 Shoreview Road, Dallas, Texas. Martin said he was born September 21, 1905 at Two Harbors, Minnesota.

Martin stated that following the assassination of President John F. Kennedy the twenty-five feet of film he took was included in this movie.

Martin advised that the following are members of the Dallas Cinema Associates Corporation and each will share equally in any profit made on the sale of the film.

Rudy Brenk, President,

4404 Ivy Street, Mesquite, Texas

telephone BR 9-7148

Bryant Boren, Vice-President,

605 West Vista Drive, Garland, Texas

telephone BR 8-2397. Martin said Boren

is employed as Manager of the Sanger-Harris Camera Shop;

Mrs. Frances Hays, Secretary,

913 Forest Ridge Drive, Garland, Texas

BR 6-0140, Martin said her husband took the movies

but is not active in the corporation;

Wyman Parr, 4448 South Marsalis, Dallas, Texas

home telephone, FR 6-5918, business telephone

FR 4-6465

George Shawver, 4926 Frio Drive, Dallas, Texas

telephone, FR 4-1119. He is employed by Greyhound

downtown, according to Martin.

Dick Allen, 4222 Summit Ridge, Dallas, Texas,

telephone FR 4-3053. Martin said Allen is employed

by Hine Pontiac, Dallas, Texas;

Mrs. Hazel Gooch, 208 W. Louisiana Street, Dallas, Texas,

telephone unknown;

Mr. Jules Speigel, 2723 Crestview Drive, Dallas,

Texas, telephone BR 9-2289,

salesman Southwest Fixture Company, 907 Commerce Street, Dallas, Texas

John Martin Jr, 9846 Shoreview Road,

Dallas, Texas, telephone DI 8-3546;

George Kinkaid, Kincaid Photo Service, telephone RI 1-3271.

Martin advised that Kinkaid is not a member of the corporation

as yet but did take some movies of the motorcade;

Alan Rhodes, 4640 Cole Avenue, employed Sanger-Harris Camera Shop,

at Lamar and Main Streets, Dallas, Texas. Martin stated he took 35 mm stills

and the stills were incorporated into the movie.

Albert Bunnell, 1314 English Street, Irving, Texas

office telephone FL 2-4761, Martin said he is

employed at Love Field;

Joe Brown, 7008 Hovenkamp Street, Fort Worth, Texas

Can be reached at telephone number AN 2-4544;

C.W. Gray, 11627 Fernald Street, Dallas, Texas

telephone DA7-2972;

Earl Mester, 232 Alta Drive, Garland, Texas

telephone BR 8-6918;

Doctor Howard Sigler, 6936 Lakeshore Drive, Dallas, Texas

telephone DA 7-3649;

Irving Gewertz, 6422 Walnut Hill Lane, Dallas, Texas

telephone EM 1-7785

Charles Mentesana, 5103 Vickery Street, Dallas, Texas, telephone TA 3-0006 or TA 4-0803;

Larry Thomas, Route 1 Box 1820, Grand Prairie, Texas.

From Post Thread of Movies Taken of Presidential Motorcade/Dallas Cinema Associates

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14545

Martin Film (0:25)

John Martin's film shows the motorcase on Houston Street, and rounding the corner onto Elm through some trees.

It also shows the aftermath of the shooting in Dealey Plaza.

There is also another kicker in this whole area; one of the Oswald impersonators, who was posing as Oswald was

Dudley Lee Farrell, he was a Postal employee in Dallas also....

Can you do the math?

FERRELL, DUDLEY LEE

Sources: CE 2999; CD 6, pp. 321-323; CD 7, pp. 543-545

Mary's Comments: White male. DOB: 5/25/25. POB: Shreveport, LA. Ferrell bears a marked resemblance to LHO. Supervisor of Mails at Main Post Office, Dallas. His mother, Mary Elizabeth Ferrell, 12210 Brookmeadow, Dallas, died Sat, June 24, 1978.

END

Radio Manager Recalls Oswald as Job Seeker;

ALICE, Texas (AP)

Lee Harvey Oswald, the 24-year-old accused assassin of President Kennedy

was interviewed for a job at a radio station here last month, the station’s

manager said Wednesday.

Oswald drove into the parking lot of station KOPY

in a battered 1953 model car on the afternoon of October 4,

station manager Sonny Stewart, said.

Stewart said Oswald was in his office for about 25 minutes. “Bob Janca,

a station employee, and I neither one of us paid him a heck of a lot of

attention.

Just about the first thing he told us was that he had no radio experience,”

Stewart said. “It’s a strange thing,” Stewart said. “The first time I saw Oswald’s

picture on TV I recognized him. It was like a song that you can’t remember the

name. When it finally hit me who it was, I almost fell on the floor.”

Stewart said the notified the FBI on Saturday and agents from the Bureau’s

regional offices came to Alice this week. The FBI is interested in

establishing Oswald’s route and whereabouts from the time he left Laredo

on Oct. 3 until Friday.

The station manager said Oswald had his wife and a small child in the car with

him. He refused an offer to have the woman brought inside the station, Stewart

said with the explanation, “she doesent speak any English.”

Oswald’s actions weren’t exactly suspicious or eccentric, Stewart said, ‘But he

just didn’t act normal.”

After he told Oswald there were no job openings at KOPY he asked about other

radio stations in the area.

He was particularly interested in the station at Pleasanton, Stewart said.

Oswald also asked about the station at Sinton, Stewart said.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=146617

I'm waiting for someone to challenge me on this because I know this area better than anyone.....Maybe somebody should pay more attention to the post office angle.....

Edited by Robert Howard
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No, I think it is far from a waste of time, the results you present are interesting and add to the overall knowledgbase. If I needed clarification, maybe others do....

Tom, I repeat my gratitude to everybody on this thread. I now know with certainty that the Jack Martin Film was not the product of Jack S. Martin Sr. who worked for Guy Banister.

However, we still have a problem identifying this John T. Martin with the one described the Shackelford and Schoener.

Today Gary Schoener sent me an email that objects to my idea that John T. Martin was a volunteer for General Edwin Walker. His email reads in part:

> ...[John T.] Martin told us (i.e. Harold Weisberg and me) that he had

> become a pacifist while serving under Walker in Germany, and that he

> had left the service, barely able to get an honorable discharge.

> He claimed to be done with the Birch Society and minutemen.

>

> Gary

This presents a major problem of identification. Here again we have the claim that we heard from Martin Shackelford, that John T. Martin served under General Walker in Germany. But that is impossible if John T. Martin was 17 in August of 1963, because General Walker quit the Army in late November of 1961.

Anybody can do this math. John T. Martin would have had to be 15 years old to serve under Walker in 1961; and he needed two yeras to get an honorable discharge from the Army, so he would have had to enlist at age 13. This is clearly ridiculous.

Can we be talking about the same person? Can we be certain we are talking about the same Jack Martin Film?

The only age that makes sense of the claims of Martin Shackelford (that John Martin served under General Walker) as well as the claims of John T. Martin himself (that he served under Walker in Germany when he became a pacifist) is an age 4-6 years older -- the estimate that Gary Schoener first gave us about the age of John T. Martin.

Schoener said he was 24 in 1968 when he and Harold Weisberg met John T. Martin, and he had the impression that John Martin was older. He estimated about 4-6 years older than himself. Let us say four years older - so John T. Martin would have been 28 in 1968; so he was 21 in 1961 when Walker quit the Army; so he was 19 when he joined the Army. This means he was also 23 in the summer of 1963, when he flew to General Walker's house to film the bullet holes there, and then to NOLA to film Oswald getting arrested.

The FBI records (and the Minuteman records) clearly state that John T. Martin was 17 years old in 1963. Still, it is unlikely that we are speaking about two different men, because the FBI gives the address of that man: FBI documentation shows Minutemen records from August, 1963, with the full identification as:

Name: John T. Martin

Address: 1752 Iglehart, Apt. 4, St. Paul, Minnesota

Age: 17

FBI documents also advise Harold Weisberg that if he wants a copy of the Jack Martin Film, he must contact John T. Martin, personally, because the FBI no longer has a copy. They gave the address as 1752 Iglehart, Apt. 4, St. Paul, MN.

This is the same name, the same middle initial, and the same address. The trouble is that they gave his age as 17, but he told you he served in Germany under General Walker (whose final year in the Army was 1961) -- so there is no way he could have been 17 in 1963. Impossible.

Finally, insofar as John Martin claims that he served under General Walker, then he must have served before Walker quit in November, 1961. Yet we still have records of his Minuteman membership in August, 1963, complete with a dues payment (as I recall). So, this suggests that John T. Walker wasn't *yet* a pacifist in August, 1963. Rather, he must have become a pacifist between 1963 and 1968, when he met Weisberg and Schoener.

This means that John T. Martin became a pacifist *after* August, 1963, when he paid the expense to *fly* to Dallas to film the bullet holes in General Walker's house -- most likely out of respect for this famous General.

If I'm correct, then John T. Martin became a pacifist in late 1963 (at the earliest), and somehow scrambled his own time track and came to believe that he was a pacifist by 1961. (Or perhaps he was torn about the issue in 1961, never fully disconnecting from para-military groups until two years later.)

Schoener wonders why a Minuteman would share his political movies with the FBI and journalists. What did he think the FBI would find there? What did he think the FBI (or the journalists) would seek there?

I wonder whether John Martin explained how, socially, he came to visit Walker's home to take these pictures in the summer of 1963?.

All I can say with certainty today is this -- it is impossible that he served under Walker in Germany during 1961 and was still 17 in 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Tom, I repeat my gratitude to everybody on this thread. I now know with certainty that the Jack Martin Film was not the product of Jack S. Martin Sr. who worked for Guy Banister.

However, we still have a problem identifying this John T. Martin with the one described by Shackelford and Schoener.

Today Gary Schoener sent me an email that objects to my idea that John T. Martin was a volunteer for General Edwin Walker. His email reads in part:

> ...[John T.] Martin told us (i.e. Harold Weisberg and me) that he had

> become a pacifist while serving under Walker in Germany, and that he

> had left the service, barely able to get an honorable discharge.

> He claimed to be done with the Birch Society and minutemen.

>

> Gary

This presents a major problem of identification. Here again we have the claim that we heard from Martin Shackelford, that John T. Martin served under General Walker in Germany. But that is impossible if John T. Martin was 17 in August of 1963, because General Walker quit the Army in late November of 1961.

...

I wonder whether John Martin explained how, socially, he came to visit Walker's home to take these pictures in the summer of 1963?.

All I can say with certainty today is this -- it is impossible that he served under Walker in Germany during 1961 and was still 17 in 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

So, I raised these points with Gary Schoener, and he replied last night as follows:

------------------------------------------------------ FROM GARY SCHOENER ---------------------

From: Gary Schoener

Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:57 PM

To: Paul Trejo

Subject: Re: Seeking the 1968 companion of Harold Weisberg...

Well, the address is correct, but as you note, something is wrong here.

My experience with the FBI is that they sometimes mix people up or falsify. I have several people it took years to track down due to mistakes in names or addresses.

All in all, with the information you have, 'something's rotten in Denmark" (or at least St. Paul, MN)

It may be that there is more information in the Weisberg archive or in my records, but I am sure about his claim to have served under Walker in Germany and the pacifist thing.

The Walker segment of the film was not, if I am recalling correctly, taken at the same time as the rest. But, it occurs earlier in the film so that would mean that it predated the Bringuier incident.

There is always the chance that the guy was contacting us as (1) CIA asset, or (2) a collaborator with the right wing.

But again, the question is, why give us the film? it's not clear enough to identify (at least, nobody Harold or I showed it to recognized him) the guy we think was LHO's handler on the street. it would make sense if they were trying to plant information framing someone,but if so, it didn't happen.

Years later, of course, I was to help set in motion the expose of Bill Boxley and all of the disinformation in NO. So, I am aware of how much of that was around.

Also, the Walker connection was barely mentioned and very honestly I know that we didn't ask much about it -- again, not clear what the motive would have been -- why not just edit that out of the film.

Gary

PS: typical of the "case," the more you look the more complicated it gets

-------------------------------------- END OF EMAIL FROM GARY SCHOENER --------------------

Now, this is what I call fun. The intrigue just builds and builds. Thanks to everybody on this thread for an exciting ride.

WHO WAS THE JACK MARTIN BEHIND THE JACK MARTIN FILM?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

Edited by Paul Trejo
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