The Rifle

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. Dolva;

Are you still with us?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. Dolva;

Are you still with us?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legion_...tical_movement)

The Black Legion was an additional organization within the Ku Klux Klan and operated in the United States in the 1930s.

http://www.nathanielturner.com/blacklegion...nterrorists.htm

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/dupont.html

Du Pont’s General Motors Co. funded a vigilante/terrorist organization to stop unionization in its Midwestern factories. Called the “Black Legion,” its members wore black robes decorated with a white skull and crossbones. Concealed behind their slitted hoods, this KKK-like network of white-supremacist thugs threw bombs into union halls, set fire to labor activists’ homes, tortured union organizers and killed at least 50 in Detroit alone. Many of their victims were Blacks lured North by tales of good auto-plant jobs. One of their victims, Rev. Earl Little, was murdered in 1931. His son, later called Malcolm X, was then six. An earlier memory, his first, was a night-time raid in 1929 when the Legion burnt down their house. Gerard Colby had this to say about the Black Legion in his book Dupont Dynasty (1984):

"But corporate executives did not give up the tactic of vigilante groups, and on June 1, 1936, Cowdrick wrote Harry Anderson, G.M's labor relations director, to ask his opinion of the Sentinels of the Republic. Anderson was apparently unaware of Irénée du Pont's support of this organization, but offered his own home-brew alternative. "With reference to your letter of June 1 regarding the Sentinels of the Republic," he replied a few days later, "I have never heard of the organization. Maybe you could use a little Black Legion down in your country. It might help."

The "Black Legion" Anderson referred to was indeed a great help to General Motors in its struggle to prevent auto workers from unionizing. With members wearing black robes and slitted hoods adorned with white skull and crossbones, the Black Legion was the terror of Michigan and Ohio auto flelds, riding like Klansmen through the night in car caravans, bombing union halls, burning down homes of labor militants, and flogging and murdering union organizers. The organization was divided into arson squads, bombing squads, execution squads, and anti-communist squads, and membership discipline on pain of torture or death was strictly enforced. Legion cells filled G.M. factories, terrorizing workers and recruiting Ku Klux Klansmen.

Since 1933 the Black Legion's power had permeated police departments."

The Legion, claiming 200,000 members in Michigan, was divided into distinct squads, each focused on a different aspect of their work for du Pont: arson, bombing, execution and anti-communism. The Legion’s cells within GM factories intimidated workers, targeted Jews and recruited for the KKK. They worked together to stop Reds and unions that demanded their labour rights.

Irénée du Pont (1876-1963)

By Charles Higham

Irénée, the most imposing and powerful member of the du Pont clan, was obsessed with Hitler’s principles. He keenly followed the future Fuhrer’s career in the 1920s. On Sept. 7, 1926, in a speech to the American Chemical Society, he advocated a race of supermen, to be achieved by injecting special drugs into them in boyhood to make their characters to order. He insisted his men reach physical standards equivalent to that of a Marine and have blood as pure as that in the veins of the Vikings. Despite the fact that he had Jewish blood in his own veins, his anti-Semitism matched that of Hitler.

In outright defiance of Roosevelt’s desire to improve working conditions for the average man, GM and the Du Ponts instituted the speedup systems. These forced men to work at terrifying speeds on the assembly lines. Many died of the heat and pressure, increased by fear of losing their jobs. Irénée paid almost $1 million from his own pocket for armed and gas-equipped storm troops modeled on the Gestapo to sweep through the plants and beat up anyone who proved rebellious. He hired the Pinkerton Agency to send its swarms of detectives through the whole [du Pont] chemicals, munitions and auto empire to spy on left-wingers or other malcontents.

Source: Trading with the Enemy: An Expose of the Nazi-American Money Plot 1933-1949, 1983.

[Jack White]

Assumedly, most are fully aware of this photo, as well as the copy of the photo which George DeMohrenschildt was in possession of, and it's "writings".

Purvis continues to promote the official story instead of evaluating evidence to the contrary.

Jack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Assumedly, most are fully aware of this photo, as well as the copy of the photo which George DeMohrenschildt was in possession of, and it's "writings".

Purvis continues to promote the official story instead of evaluating evidence to the contrary.

Jack

Purvis continues to promote the official story instead of evaluating evidence to the contrary.

Well!

"Six-Groove" bullets which do not exist as well as "bottom mounted" sling swivels which do not exist, along with "multiple assassins" which you acclaim by looking at fuzzy pictures, would hardly qualify as "research".

As a matter of FACT, I have yet to actually observe any FACTUAL research which you have done or presented.

JACK:--Master of Speculation and Confusion!

P.S. In event you would like the mailing address of APOLLO XIII Commander James Lovell, in order to attempt to sell him the "APOLLO HOAX", then let me know and I will defer to his expertise in demonstration of how little you know on that subject matter as well.

P.P.S. But then again, you are among those who also apparantly believed the WC's "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Which clearly demonstrates that you will believe just about anything!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mark;

For consolidation purposes, perhaps it would be best to keep the Carcano Carbine issue (Short Rifle v. "Shortened Rifle) in a single location where anyone who is not up to date, would not have to search forever.

Which (searching for information), many appear unwilling to do!

Tom

[William Kelly]

Everything you wanted to know about the Carcano.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/c2766.html

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...es/evidence.gif

This rifle became of international interest when President John F Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, was assassinated on 22 November 1963. An example of the Mannlicher-Carcano was originally presumed to have been used by the assassin since one was found nearby, but later detail investigations have thrown doubt on this. The Museum's example was produced in 1940 at the Italian arsenal at Terni. In 1938, with the introduction of the 7.35 mm cartridge, a new short rifle and two patterns of carbines chambered for this cartridge were introduced, all with fixed sights. The entrance of Italy into World War 2 in 1940, with insufficient supplies of ammunition at hand, caused second thoughts on the use of another cartridge and that same year the 6.5 mm was reintroduced, and Carcanos manufactured from that date were again chambered for the 6.5 mm cartridge.

http://' target="_blank">

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Everything you wanted to know about the Carcano.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/c2766.html

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...es/evidence.gif

This rifle became of international interest when President John F Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, was assassinated on 22 November 1963. An example of the Mannlicher-Carcano was originally presumed to have been used by the assassin since one was found nearby, but later detail investigations have thrown doubt on this. The Museum's example was produced in 1940 at the Italian arsenal at Terni. In 1938, with the introduction of the 7.35 mm cartridge, a new short rifle and two patterns of carbines chambered for this cartridge were introduced, all with fixed sights. The entrance of Italy into World War 2 in 1940, with insufficient supplies of ammunition at hand, caused second thoughts on the use of another cartridge and that same year the 6.5 mm was reintroduced, and Carcanos manufactured from that date were again chambered for the 6.5 mm cartridge.

<a href="http://" target="_blank"></a>

Bill;

What does one have when they have 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of a lake with concrete blocks tied to their legs?

A. "A good start"!

The Stevens information is certainly that, however not unlike any subject matter, one should certainly expound on their knowledge if they truly want to understand it.

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/carcano.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-116929226.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQ...53/ai_n19313646

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

http://www.il91.it/Sito/introduzione/IntroduzioneSito.htm

And then again, there is my closet which has six of the various makes and models to plunder through.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current American military rifles?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, we discover that the round- to-round dispersion is of the order of three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition.

Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it?

Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

The M14 also provides the basis for the M21 and M25 sniper rifles.

It would appear that few here have appreciation for one of our newest posters to this forum who can provide much needed "debunking" when it comes to weapons; ballistics; and marksmanship.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm

In general, the M14 was a comtroversial weapon. It had the accuracy and range of the "old time" military rifles, but was too long, heavy and lacked the automatic fire firepower of a true assault rifle, often required in the modern close combat. Nevertheless, it was a reliable and powerful weapon, often favored by users for high lethality, long range and good penetration - features much appreciated by US soldiers during recent operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Who knows, we may actually convert this to the one and only true "Educational Forum" after all.

[Mike Williams]

Everything you wanted to know about the Carcano.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/c2766.html

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...es/evidence.gif

This rifle became of international interest when President John F Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, was assassinated on 22 November 1963. An example of the Mannlicher-Carcano was originally presumed to have been used by the assassin since one was found nearby, but later detail investigations have thrown doubt on this. The Museum's example was produced in 1940 at the Italian arsenal at Terni. In 1938, with the introduction of the 7.35 mm cartridge, a new short rifle and two patterns of carbines chambered for this cartridge were introduced, all with fixed sights. The entrance of Italy into World War 2 in 1940, with insufficient supplies of ammunition at hand, caused second thoughts on the use of another cartridge and that same year the 6.5 mm was reintroduced, and Carcanos manufactured from that date were again chambered for the 6.5 mm cartridge.

<a href="http://" target="_blank"></a>

Bill;

What does one have when they have 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of a lake with concrete blocks tied to their legs?

A. "A good start"!

The Stevens information is certainly that, however not unlike any subject matter, one should certainly expound on their knowledge if they truly want to understand it.

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/carcano.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-116929226.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQ...53/ai_n19313646

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

http://www.il91.it/Sito/introduzione/IntroduzioneSito.htm

And then again, there is my closet which has six of the various makes and models to plunder through.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current American military rifles?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, we discover that the round- to-round dispersion is of the order of three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition.

Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it?

Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

The M14 also provides the basis for the M21 and M25 sniper rifles.

It would appear that few here have appreciation for one of our newest posters to this forum who can provide much needed "debunking" when it comes to weapons; ballistics; and marksmanship.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm

In general, the M14 was a comtroversial weapon. It had the accuracy and range of the "old time" military rifles, but was too long, heavy and lacked the automatic fire firepower of a true assault rifle, often required in the modern close combat. Nevertheless, it was a reliable and powerful weapon, often favored by users for high lethality, long range and good penetration - features much appreciated by US soldiers during recent operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Who knows, we may actually convert this to the one and only true "Educational Forum" after all.

Thanks for the kind words Tom. The 21 and 25 are incredible weapons. I have always preferred the m40 series bolt guns, but the 21 and 25 is hard to beat.

For real bang for the buck wrap up on an m82....the big 50!

Mike

[William Kelly]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=62296

(The interesting distribution list for this document includes two places Jose Rivera was stationed, as well as everybody else and their brother) - BK

US Army Edgewood Arsenal

Chemical Research and Development Laboratories

Technical Report

CRDLR 3264

Wound Ballistics of 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition (U)

by

Alfred G. Olivier

Arthur J. Dziemian

CRLD (Logo)

Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland 21010

Group 3

Downgraded at 12 year intervals;

not automatically declassified

CONFIDENTIAL

Defense Documentation Center Availabilty Notice

Qualified requsters may obtain copies of this report from

Defense Documentation Center, Cameron Station, Alexandria, Virginia 22314

FOREWORD

The work described in this report was authoried under Project IM012501A027, Wound Ballistices (U). The experimental data are contained in notebook MN-1811. This work was started in April 1964 and completed in October 1964.

In conducting the research described in this report, the investigators adhered to the "Principles of Laboratory Animal Care" as establihed by the National Soceity for Medical Research.

Acknowledgements

Mr. Donald Smith was the gunner in these tests. Many members of the Biophysics Division assisted with the experiments. In particular, Mr. Walter McDonald's effort are greatly appreciated.

Notices

This document contains information affecting the national defenses of the United States within meaning of the Espionage Laws, Title 18, U.S. C., Sections 793 and 794. The transmission or the revelation of its contents in any manner to an unauthorized person is prohibited by law.

Reproduction of this document in whole or in part is prohibited except with permssion of the US Army Edgewood Arsenal Chemical Research and Development Laboratories; however, DDC is authorized to reproduce the document for United States Government purposes.

Disclaimer

The findings in this report are not to be construted as an official Department of the Army position, unless so designated by other authorized documents.

Disposition

When this document has served its purpose. Department of the Army organizations will destroy it in accordance with AR 380-5. Navy and Air Force elements will destroy it in accordance with applicable directives. Department of Defense contractors will destroy it in accordance with the requirments of Section 14 of the Industrical Security Manual for Safeguarding Classified Information. All others will be return the document to U.S. Army Edgewood Arsenal Chemical Research and Development Laboratories, Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland 21020.

Digest

Experiment were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassinationj rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammuntion to reproduce the conditions occuring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963.

The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President andby Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle........

Contents

I. Introduction

II. Procedures

III. Results

IV. Discussion

V. Conclusions

Appendixes

A. Figures

B. Tables

Distribution p. 49

DD Form 1473 57

Page 49:

DISTRIBUTION LIST NO. 30

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=49

Copies

1 Mail and File Record Center, (Recod Copy)

10 CRDL Library, CRDL, Bldg 3330

4 Publications Section, Technical Releases Branch, TID

7 Australian Army Staff (W) ATTN: Lt. Col. P. D. Yonge, 2001 Conn. Ave.

6 Canadian Liaison Officer

xxx

1 Commanding Officer, USAF School of Aerospace Medicine, (SMOTL) ATTN: Documents Librarian, Brooks Air Force Base, Texas

....

2. Commanding Officer, US. Army Biological Laboratories, ATTN: Documents, Technical Library, Fort Detrick< Frederick, Maryland - 21701

......

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1.  Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a.  Manufactured at multiple factories.

c.  Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d.  Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2.  Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers. 

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b.  Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c.  Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e.  Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f.   ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3.  In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification.  However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels.  And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4.  To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine.  It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f.   Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number.  IE:

a.  C 276------with an additional "6" added

b.     276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c.     2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In 1938, the Italian Government embarked on a major caliber change for the Carcano.

Production of the weapon in a 7.35mm caliber was instituted, and the following weapons were produced in this new and larger size.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle*

*The Short Rifle was a new design weapon which had not been produced prior to this.

These weapons, in the 7.35mm caliber, are referred to as the Model 38.

In addition to this larger caliber, the old fold-up/long range rear sight of the weapons was deleted and a fixed rear sight was installed and became an identifying characteristic of those weapons produced begining in 1938.

**It is noted that production of the Rifle (long rifle) in the 7.35mm was not done.

This weapon remained in the 6.5mm caliber.

A further discussion of the 7.35mm caliber will be forthcoming after discussion of the post-1938 6.5mm weapons.

___________________________________________________________________

Within a short time of having converted to the 7.35mm calliber, the Italian Government decided not to proceed with this major design change as WWII was starting. Therefore, a change back to production of only 6.5mm weapons was begun.

With this came the Model 91/38 production in the following rifle designs.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle.

The new Cavalry Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

The new TS Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

With this new design production, the possiibility of a Carbine rifle barrel which contained the serial number C2766 now has an additional five more barrels added to the already large number from the pre-1938 weapons.

This of course also adds to the numbers of those variations of "C2766" which could be made into that number by merely adding additional stamping.

Lastly, of course this new design production also included the new "Short Rifle" in the 6.5mm caliber as well.

Records indicate that this weapon was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

d. Terni

Which should serve to indicate that even with the Carcano M91/38 (6.5mm), Short Rifle, there exists the possibility of having four virtually identical weapons which bear the serial number C2766, with the only identifiable difference being the plant stamp of manufacture/assembly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now, the Italian Government has come full circle back to production of only 6.5mm rifles for it's forces.

However, there also exists a considerable supply of Cavalry Carbines; TS Carbines; and Short Rifles, which were produced in the 7.35mm version.

Thereafter, many of these weapons were recalled into the Italian Armament plants and the weapons were modified back to the 6.5mm version.

Since this was a originally a totally separate model and caliber weapon, it's serial number issue was separate as well.

Therefore, there could have easily been serial# C2766 weapons issued in each of the three versions of weapons by each of the separate plants which produced these rifles.

It is unknown as to what serial numbering system was utilized when these weapons were returned and re-conditioned to the 6.5mm caliber.

To date, I have found only three indicators as a means to determine which of the M91/38 6.5mm Short Rifles may be originally produced as this, as opposed to formerly 7.35mm versions which were converted back to the 6.5mm versions.

These are:

a. Serial number on the weapon stock. If the serial number on the weapon stock does not match that of the actual rifle barrel, then to a relative high probability, the weapon was a 7.35mm which was converted back.

b. "Double" barrel alignment marks. On the bottom/underside of the barrel, at the juncture where the barrel screws up tight against the frame/breech, the barrel has a slightly flat surface area.

This area was utilized to install "alignment" marks on the weapon once the barrel was fully seated and tested, at the factory.

After which, a mark was made with a form of chisel, which created a mark on the barrel as well as a corresponding mark on the receiver.

These marks remain in alignment and can be readily observed when the weapon is disassembled.

In the event there has been a barrel change on the weapon, the receiver will generally bear two indications of alignment markings. One mark from the original barrel alignment and one mark from the new alignment, which should correspond to/align with the marking on the current barrel.

In event the receiver has two of these alignment markings, then to a relative high degree of probability, this is as a result of having a previous barrel installed, prior to the current weapon barrel.

C. "Crown" & "TNI" mark. Those weapons which have exibited a barrel change that I have observed, also had stamped onto the receiver, markings which were not observed on "original" weapons.

This marking consists of an extremely small oval/circle with the inside of the circle bearing a "Crown" and "TNI", which appears to be for the Terni plant where the modifications to the weapon was done.

Although adequate verification of this marking and reasons for the marking are still speculative, the one "changeout" Short Rifle in my possession has this marking, with a "Terni" barrel installed, as well as the dual barrel alignment marks and separate serial numbers on the stock as opposed to the barrel.

Oddly enough, this weapon also has a "39" stamped into the underside of the frame, whereas the barrel has the "1940 XVIII" mark.

With the inadequate information available relative to the changeout of the 7.35mm version back to the 6.5mm version of the Short Rifle, there is no way to verify, or disprove that the serial number C2677 was or was not installed on the new 6.5mm barrels when these weapons were changed back.*

*The entire topic of the "changeout" of the Carcano is still an item of dispute.

Some persons contend that no confirmed records exists which would prove that any of the 7.35mm versions were converted back to the 6.5mm versions.

The contradictory serial numbers on the stocks, as opposed to the actual weapon provide no substantive proof that this occurred, as this change could have easily occurred at any stage in the life of the weapon.

The singly most indicative evidence that this actually occurred is the barrel alignment marks on the underside of the barrel and weapon frame, which frequently serves to indicate barrel changes.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

Mr. EISENBERG - Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that we have a difference of opinions!

So, lets look for a "third party" to break the tie.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol25_0419b.htm

"William Sucher on March 12, 1964, advised he has bought hundreds of thousands of rifles overseas as Italian Government Surplus."

"Sucher advised the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was manufactured in Italy from 1891 to 1941 however in the 1930"s Mussolini ordered all arms factories to manufacture the Mannlicher-Carcano.

Since many concerns were manufacturing the same weapon, the same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commission Exhibit 2562

Pages 14 & 15

Imagine that! Serial numbers on these weapons mean NOTHING!

I would suppose that the FBI neglected to inform Frazier of this finding.

Mark;

Do not know if you bother to visit other sites, but you may find this of some interest.

Tom

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...7ce85b349a31db2

===========================================================================­====

==

So! Now you have become a worldwide expert on all of the Carcano

weapons throughout the world.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...tabase/m91.html

91 Moschetto Cav.

C3329

Brescia

1899

-------------------------

91 Moschetto Cav.

Sporterized

6.5x52 Carcano (?)

C5385

R.E. Terni

36

-------------------------

91 Moschetto Balilla

6,5 Ridotto (?)

C0207

Brescia

1931

------------------------

91/24 Moschetto T.S.

Sporterized

6.5x52 Carcano

C6016

Roma

918

--------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...tabase/m38.html

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C2931

Terni

Fixed

----------------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C6788

C6788

Terni

1938

XVII

Fixed

---------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

Sporterized

7.35x51 Carcano

C9445

None

RE Terni

1938

XVII

Adjustable

--------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C9696

R7795

Terni

1938

XVII

Fixed

--------------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C8437

C8437

RE Terni

1939

XVII

Fixed

-------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ase/tipo_i.html

(Carcano rifles made for Japan)

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C3865

None

Terni

Adjustable

----------------------------------

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C8262

None

Adjustable

-----------------------------------

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C8472

None

Adjustable

-------------------------------------

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C9729

None

Adjustable

=================================

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ase/m91_38.html

91/38 Fucile Corto

6.5x52 Carcano

C2766

Unknown

Terni

1940

-----------------------------------------

*It is noted that of some 59 weapons which Richard Hobbs has managed

to secure information on, he has no other Model 91/38 Short Rifle/

Fucile Corto which contains the "C" prefix, other than C2766.

However, the data base has several of these weapons in the 7.35mm

caliber with the "C" prefix in the serial number.

So, unless Von Pinhead has a better "data base", then one will just

have to leave it with that.

Whereas, the Model 91/38 TS Carbine (true carbine) is not that

uncommon in the "C" prefix, as even I have one (TS Carbine Serial#

C5522/Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture) that is not recorded in

the Hobbs database.

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C1565

C1565

Beretta

1940

XVIII

-------------------------------------------

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C5901

C5901

Beretta Gardone

1940

XVIII

-------------------------------------------

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C8532

C8532

Beretta Gardone

1940

XVIII

--------------------------------------------

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C6453

None

FNA Brescia

1942

XX

Fixed

------------------------------

Which information, to a prudent person, clearly demonstrates that

Serial Numbers on these weapons, without the exact Model

Identification and the specific plant of manufacture, means absolutely

nothing.

Of course, to a Von Pin/Parrothead, it is too difficult to comprehend

and they have to stick with what Frazier tells everyone.

As a prime example of the futility of attempting to trace a Carcano

merely by serial number, here is an example.

1. I possess a true Model 91/38 TS Carbine, (all original) Beretta

Gardone plant of manufacture, 6.5mm caliber,

serial number C5522.

2. I possess a true Model Cavalry Carbine, original serial number RO

1355 (stamped into stock), which has been rebarreled with a serial# UG

4267 Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture, 6.5mm caliber.

The actual barrels on these weapons are identical.

The barrels can be relatively easily switched on these weapons, and I

would thereafter have a TS Carbine with the serial number UG 4267 and

a Cavalry Carbine with the serial number C5522.

Far too confusing for a "Pinhead" to understand the potential

significance of.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1.  Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a.  Manufactured at multiple factories.

c.  Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d.  Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2.  Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers. 

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b.  Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c.  Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e.  Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f.   ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3.  In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification.  However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels.  And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4.  To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine.  It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f.   Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number.  IE:

a.  C 276------with an additional "6" added

b.     276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c.     2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In 1938, the Italian Government embarked on a major caliber change for the Carcano.

Production of the weapon in a 7.35mm caliber was instituted, and the following weapons were produced in this new and larger size.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle*

*The Short Rifle was a new design weapon which had not been produced prior to this.

These weapons, in the 7.35mm caliber, are referred to as the Model 38.

In addition to this larger caliber, the old fold-up/long range rear sight of the weapons was deleted and a fixed rear sight was installed and became an identifying characteristic of those weapons produced begining in 1938.

**It is noted that production of the Rifle (long rifle) in the 7.35mm was not done.

This weapon remained in the 6.5mm caliber.

A further discussion of the 7.35mm caliber will be forthcoming after discussion of the post-1938 6.5mm weapons.

___________________________________________________________________

Within a short time of having converted to the 7.35mm calliber, the Italian Government decided not to proceed with this major design change as WWII was starting. Therefore, a change back to production of only 6.5mm weapons was begun.

With this came the Model 91/38 production in the following rifle designs.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle.

The new Cavalry Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

The new TS Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

With this new design production, the possiibility of a Carbine rifle barrel which contained the serial number C2766 now has an additional five more barrels added to the already large number from the pre-1938 weapons.

This of course also adds to the numbers of those variations of "C2766" which could be made into that number by merely adding additional stamping.

Lastly, of course this new design production also included the new "Short Rifle" in the 6.5mm caliber as well.

Records indicate that this weapon was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

d. Terni

Which should serve to indicate that even with the Carcano M91/38 (6.5mm), Short Rifle, there exists the possibility of having four virtually identical weapons which bear the serial number C2766, with the only identifiable difference being the plant stamp of manufacture/assembly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now, the Italian Government has come full circle back to production of only 6.5mm rifles for it's forces.

However, there also exists a considerable supply of Cavalry Carbines; TS Carbines; and Short Rifles, which were produced in the 7.35mm version.

Thereafter, many of these weapons were recalled into the Italian Armament plants and the weapons were modified back to the 6.5mm version.

Since this was a originally a totally separate model and caliber weapon, it's serial number issue was separate as well.

Therefore, there could have easily been serial# C2766 weapons issued in each of the three versions of weapons by each of the separate plants which produced these rifles.

It is unknown as to what serial numbering system was utilized when these weapons were returned and re-conditioned to the 6.5mm caliber.

To date, I have found only three indicators as a means to determine which of the M91/38 6.5mm Short Rifles may be originally produced as this, as opposed to formerly 7.35mm versions which were converted back to the 6.5mm versions.

These are:

a. Serial number on the weapon stock. If the serial number on the weapon stock does not match that of the actual rifle barrel, then to a relative high probability, the weapon was a 7.35mm which was converted back.

b. "Double" barrel alignment marks. On the bottom/underside of the barrel, at the juncture where the barrel screws up tight against the frame/breech, the barrel has a slightly flat surface area.

This area was utilized to install "alignment" marks on the weapon once the barrel was fully seated and tested, at the factory.

After which, a mark was made with a form of chisel, which created a mark on the barrel as well as a corresponding mark on the receiver.

These marks remain in alignment and can be readily observed when the weapon is disassembled.

In the event there has been a barrel change on the weapon, the receiver will generally bear two indications of alignment markings. One mark from the original barrel alignment and one mark from the new alignment, which should correspond to/align with the marking on the current barrel.

In event the receiver has two of these alignment markings, then to a relative high degree of probability, this is as a result of having a previous barrel installed, prior to the current weapon barrel.

C. "Crown" & "TNI" mark. Those weapons which have exibited a barrel change that I have observed, also had stamped onto the receiver, markings which were not observed on "original" weapons.

This marking consists of an extremely small oval/circle with the inside of the circle bearing a "Crown" and "TNI", which appears to be for the Terni plant where the modifications to the weapon was done.

Although adequate verification of this marking and reasons for the marking are still speculative, the one "changeout" Short Rifle in my possession has this marking, with a "Terni" barrel installed, as well as the dual barrel alignment marks and separate serial numbers on the stock as opposed to the barrel.

Oddly enough, this weapon also has a "39" stamped into the underside of the frame, whereas the barrel has the "1940 XVIII" mark.

With the inadequate information available relative to the changeout of the 7.35mm version back to the 6.5mm version of the Short Rifle, there is no way to verify, or disprove that the serial number C2677 was or was not installed on the new 6.5mm barrels when these weapons were changed back.*

*The entire topic of the "changeout" of the Carcano is still an item of dispute.

Some persons contend that no confirmed records exists which would prove that any of the 7.35mm versions were converted back to the 6.5mm versions.

The contradictory serial numbers on the stocks, as opposed to the actual weapon provide no substantive proof that this occurred, as this change could have easily occurred at any stage in the life of the weapon.

The singly most indicative evidence that this actually occurred is the barrel alignment marks on the underside of the barrel and weapon frame, which frequently serves to indicate barrel changes.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

Mr. EISENBERG - Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that we have a difference of opinions!

So, lets look for a "third party" to break the tie.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol25_0419b.htm

"William Sucher on March 12, 1964, advised he has bought hundreds of thousands of rifles overseas as Italian Government Surplus."

"Sucher advised the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was manufactured in Italy from 1891 to 1941 however in the 1930"s Mussolini ordered all arms factories to manufacture the Mannlicher-Carcano.

Since many concerns were manufacturing the same weapon, the same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commission Exhibit 2562

Pages 14 & 15

Imagine that! Serial numbers on these weapons mean NOTHING!

I would suppose that the FBI neglected to inform Frazier of this finding.

Mark;

Do not know if you bother to visit other sites, but you may find this of some interest.

Tom

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...7ce85b349a31db2

===========================================================================­====

==

So! Now you have become a worldwide expert on all of the Carcano

weapons throughout the world.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...tabase/m91.html

91 Moschetto Cav.

C3329

Brescia

1899

-------------------------

91 Moschetto Cav.

Sporterized

6.5x52 Carcano (?)

C5385

R.E. Terni

36

-------------------------

91 Moschetto Balilla

6,5 Ridotto (?)

C0207

Brescia

1931

------------------------

91/24 Moschetto T.S.

Sporterized

6.5x52 Carcano

C6016

Roma

918

--------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...tabase/m38.html

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C2931

Terni

Fixed

----------------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C6788

C6788

Terni

1938

XVII

Fixed

---------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

Sporterized

7.35x51 Carcano

C9445

None

RE Terni

1938

XVII

Adjustable

--------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C9696

R7795

Terni

1938

XVII

Fixed

--------------------------------

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C8437

C8437

RE Terni

1939

XVII

Fixed

-------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ase/tipo_i.html

(Carcano rifles made for Japan)

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C3865

None

Terni

Adjustable

----------------------------------

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C8262

None

Adjustable

-----------------------------------

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C8472

None

Adjustable

-------------------------------------

Tipo I Fucile

6.5x50 Japanese

C9729

None

Adjustable

=================================

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ase/m91_38.html

91/38 Fucile Corto

6.5x52 Carcano

C2766

Unknown

Terni

1940

-----------------------------------------

*It is noted that of some 59 weapons which Richard Hobbs has managed

to secure information on, he has no other Model 91/38 Short Rifle/

Fucile Corto which contains the "C" prefix, other than C2766.

However, the data base has several of these weapons in the 7.35mm

caliber with the "C" prefix in the serial number.

So, unless Von Pinhead has a better "data base", then one will just

have to leave it with that.

Whereas, the Model 91/38 TS Carbine (true carbine) is not that

uncommon in the "C" prefix, as even I have one (TS Carbine Serial#

C5522/Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture) that is not recorded in

the Hobbs database.

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C1565

C1565

Beretta

1940

XVIII

-------------------------------------------

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C5901

C5901

Beretta Gardone

1940

XVIII

-------------------------------------------

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C8532

C8532

Beretta Gardone

1940

XVIII

--------------------------------------------

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C6453

None

FNA Brescia

1942

XX

Fixed

------------------------------

Which information, to a prudent person, clearly demonstrates that

Serial Numbers on these weapons, without the exact Model

Identification and the specific plant of manufacture, means absolutely

nothing.

Of course, to a Von Pin/Parrothead, it is too difficult to comprehend

and they have to stick with what Frazier tells everyone.

As a prime example of the futility of attempting to trace a Carcano

merely by serial number, here is an example.

1. I possess a true Model 91/38 TS Carbine, (all original) Beretta

Gardone plant of manufacture, 6.5mm caliber,

serial number C5522.

2. I possess a true Model Cavalry Carbine, original serial number RO

1355 (stamped into stock), which has been rebarreled with a serial# UG

4267 Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture, 6.5mm caliber.

The actual barrels on these weapons are identical.

The barrels can be relatively easily switched on these weapons, and I

would thereafter have a TS Carbine with the serial number UG 4267 and

a Cavalry Carbine with the serial number C5522.

Far too confusing for a "Pinhead" to understand the potential

significance of.

Mark;

This may get a little confusing, but!

Notice the number of Model 38 Short Rifle's (7.35mm caliber) which possess the "C" prefix to the serial number.

I have now confirmed that when the Short Rifle first went into production, which was in the 7.35mm caliber, that the rifle barrel was produced from pre-1938 long rifle barrels which were in stock.

These pre-1938 barrels were cut down in length and rechambered to fit the 7.35mm round.

This new revelation confirms several suspicions in regards to the Model 91/38 Short Rifle in the 6.5mm caliber.

"War rumor" has it that this weapon was preferred over the extremely long and bulky "Long Rifle", and that many of the 7.35mm Short Rifles became 6.5mm merely by higher echelon Armor's replacing the barrel with a Long Rifle barrell which had been cut down to the 91/38 length.

The Italian factories had long prior to this date ceased to produce the old "Progressive Gain" rifling, therefore cutting down a long rifle barrel and utilizing it on the Model 91/38 actually had little effect on overall accuracy.

So! Virtually any Long Rifle barrel which bore the serial number C2766, could be easily cut down to Short Rifle (Model 91/38) length and thereafter utilized to replace the barrel in ANY (7.35mm or 6.5mm) Short Rifle.

Thus creating a Model 91/38 Short Rifle with serial number C2766.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Posted on alt. assassination.jfk

Having long ago posted much in regards to the Carcano, as well as a continuation of education regarding these weapons, perhaps we can demonstrate exactly how little David Von Pein knows in regards to the complete futility of attempting to trace any Carcano merely by it's serial number.

1. Weapon was approved in 1891 as the weapon of choice for the Italian Army (replacing the Vetterli.* Placed into service in mid 1892.

Long Rifle referred to as the Model 91.

It's production plants were as follows:

BRESCIA

1893-1918

---------------

TERNI

1892-1936

---------------

TORINO

1893-1898

---------------

TORRE ANNUNZIATA

1893-1900

--------------

MIDA Brescia

1917-1918

-------------

ROMA

1917-1918

----------------

BERETTA

1936-1938

====================================================================

Throughout it's production history, literally hundreds of thousands of these Model 91 Long Rifles in the 6.5mm caliber were produced.

Initially produced with a "progressive gain" right-hand twist rifling (for barrel life wear protection),

this was later eliminated and all weapons became standard gain, right-hand twist rifling.

*For anyone who wishes to discuss the Vetterli, I also once owned one of them as well, and they actually have an historical significance in American History..

A little known fact is that many of these old weapons were converted to the 6.5mm caliber and remained in service within the Italian armed forces and were utilized rather extensively during WWI.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/SwissVet.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/946778244/Guns/...RIFLE_6_5MM.htm

======================================================================

2. Initially the Carcano was constructed with a bolt handle which stuck straight out. This protruding bolt created problems, and was later changed to the "turned down" bolt handle design.

Although records of manufacture and assignment of serial numbers is limited, there does appear to have initially been some form of "pattern" to assignment of serial numbers to these weapons in the early stages of manufacture.

As example, the "Mida-Brescia" plant appears to have been the plant which initially utilized the first several letters of the alphabet (A; B; C;D; ect) as well as (AA: AE; BA; etc) as their prefix to any issued serial number.

However, the "Brescia" plant also appears to have issued weapons with the single alphabetical letter prefix as well:

And although this pattern appears to be correct, it can not be considered as "absolute" due to the amount of re-barreling on these weapons during the course of their history.

------------------------------------------------------------

91 Fucile

6.5x52 Carcano

D8830-------------------serial number on barrel*

D8830-------------------serial number on stock*

Mida Brescia

17------------------------year of manufacture

* An original issue weapon from the Mida Brescia plant in which the serial number stamped into the stock fully matches the serial number on the rifle barrel.

---------------------------------------------------------------

91 Fucile

6.5x52 Carcano

E5214----------------* (see next weapon serial number)

Mida Brescia------* (see next weapon plant of manufacture)

17

----------------------------------------------------------------

91 Fucile**

6.5x52 Carcano

E3356--------------* Same alphabetical prefix as issued by the Mida Brescia plant.

D1226-------------* Stock serial number different from barrel serial number.

None

Brescia

1895

----------------------------------------------------------------

**The above weapon has quite obviously been "re-barreled". This is evident by the fact that the stock serial number and the barrel serial number do not match.

Without complete plant records, there is no means by which to determine where the weapon was originally produced.

However, the rifle barrel contains the serial number "E3356" as well as the "Brescia" plant of manufacture, which fully indicates a duplication of serial numbers on these early Long Rifles as the "Mida-Brescia" plant was also issuing "E" prefix serial numbers, as demonstrated by the previous weapon, "E5214" with the Mida-Brescia plant stamp.

=====================================================================

In 1900, the Torre Annunziata plant ceased production of the Long Rifle.

TORRE ANNUNZIATA

1893-1900

And, that this initial method of assignment control of serial numbers was implemented appears to hold true due to the fact that in 1918 at the end of WWI, Italy ceased to produce the Long Rifle at three of it's production plants.

BRESCIA

1893-1918

------------------------

MIDA Brescia

1917-1918

----------------------

ROMA

1917-1918

--------------------

======================================================================

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

Manufacturers

The Italian government sought to produce their guns entirely within Italy. Various manufacturers had produced Carcani since 1892, most guns having been manufactured in the Terni and Brescia Arsenals, with other manufacturers coming and going over the years depending on demand. Some may one have been final assembly plants of subcontracted parts made elsewhere. The "manufacturer" of each gun imprinted their identifying name or logo on the chamber end of the barrel.

In addition to the manufacturer's identifying logo, the year of production (up until mid-1943) and the serial number should be imprinted on the chamber end of the barrel. The year of production is typically a 2 to 4 digit number indicating the year. For example a gun manufactured in 1918 may have a shortened year such as '918' or "18" imprinted. In addition to the A.D. Christian year, there is from 1929 until 1943, the year of the Fascist Era (which was counted from the March on Rome in autumn 1922) also stamped in Roman numerals on most barrels. Since Fascist year and common era year are not identical (just like secular and liturgical year diverge from each other), this allows to identify whether a gun was produced before or after the anniversary day of the March on Rome in a given year.

Typical serial numbers of Carcani consist of either 1 or 2 letters followed by 4 numbers. Guns produced at Roma in late World War I often have a 'OR-' prefix before their whole serial number. Some guns with a number only also exist.

================================================================================

Here is all of where Richard Hobbs states that the Model 91 Long Rifle was produced:

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

Manufacturers

The Italian government sought to produce their guns entirely within Italy. Various manufacturers had produced Carcani since 1892, most guns having been manufactured in the Terni and Brescia Arsenals, with other manufacturers coming and going over the years depending on demand. Some may one have been final assembly plants of subcontracted parts made elsewhere. The "manufacturer" of each gun imprinted their identifying name or logo on the chamber end of the barrel.

In addition to the manufacturer's identifying logo, the year of production (up until mid-1943) and the serial number should be imprinted on the chamber end of the barrel. The year of production is typically a 2 to 4 digit number indicating the year. For example a gun manufactured in 1918 may have a shortened year such as '918' or "18" imprinted. In addition to the A.D. Christian year, there is from 1929 until 1943, the year of the Fascist Era (which was counted from the March on Rome in autumn 1922) also stamped in Roman numerals on most barrels. Since Fascist year and common era year are not identical (just like secular and liturgical year diverge from each other), this allows to identify whether a gun was produced before or after the anniversary day of the March on Rome in a given year.

Typical serial numbers of Carcani consist of either 1 or 2 letters followed by 4 numbers. Guns produced at Roma in late World War I often have a 'OR-' prefix before their whole serial number. Some guns with a number only also exist.

================================================================================

Here is all of where Richard Hobbs states that the Model 91 Long Rifle was produced:

Unlike other versions of the Carcano which underwent a change in 1938 which incorporated a "fixed" rear sight, the Model 91 rifle continued to have the adjustable rear sight.

No basic change in this weapon came into being until 1940 when a trial weapon (Model 91/40) was developed yet not placed into full production.

Then, in 1941, an additional change was made which introduced the Model 91/41 which was placed into production and which still incorporated the adjustable rear sight.

The changes in the Model 91 Long Rifle consisted of only minor modifications which dealt with change in forward sling swivel location (bottom to side) as well as design changes in the buttplate.

This new (Model 91/41) design incorporated a slightly shorter barrel length than the old Model 91 as well.

However, it's production was limited to the years 1941 through 1945, and even then was produced at only two known arms plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

In 1941, the military reverted to a long-barrelled infantry rifle again (slightly shorter than the original M91), the M91/41.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After the end of WWII, the Carcano was progressively replaced within the Italian Armed Forces. However,

among the little known facts of the Carcano is that it remained in service within Italy until the year 1981.

"In the Polizia di Stato the rifle was abandoned only in 1981."

Therefore, considerable quantities of this weapon remained available in Italy for many years.

Wikipedia provides an excellent reference for the variations in makes/models of this weapon. However, it does not go into the fact that the weapon was produced in various makes and models at an entire range of arms factories.

Variants

Fucile di Fanteria Mo.1891 (long infantry rifle Model 1891, adopted in 1891)

Moschetto Mo.91 da Cavalleria (carbine, adopted in 1893)

Moschetto per Truppe Speciali Mo.91 (or M.91TS, carbine for special troops, adopted 1897)

Moschetto di Fanteria Mo. 91/24 (carbine, modification of the original Mo.1891 with shortened barrel and altered rearsight blade, adopted in 1924)

Moschetto di Fanteria Mo. 91/28 (newly constructed carbine, adopted in 1928)

Moschetto di Fanteria Mo. 91/28 con Tromboncino (modified version coupled with a 38,5 mm grenade launcher)

Fucile di Fanteria Mo. 1938 (Model 1938, modernized version adopted in 1938 in the 7,35 caliber)

Moschetto di Fanteria Mo. 91/38 (Model 1938 carbine in the original 6,5 caliber)

Fucile di Fanteria Mo. 91/41 (long infantry rifle, similar to the original Mo.1891, adopted in 1941)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/c...o9141/index.asp