Jump to content
The Education Forum

The Rifle


Recommended Posts

Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack B)

Tom...I finally located an early copy of John's H&L manuscript

on my HD which I used in helping proofread. This is not necessarily

the final draft, but is close. Following is part of John's chapter on

Klein's, from about 5 years ago.

Jack

...........................................

March 12, 1963-Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle

Much has been written about Oswald's alleged purchase of the so-called "assassination rifle," found by Dallas Police on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. The police found a 40.2 inch long, Mannlicher-Carcano carbine, Model 91/38, caliber 6.5mm, serial number C2766.

The Warren Commission published documents and testimony that purported to "prove" that Oswald ordered the rifle on March 12, 1963, using the alias "A. Hidell," from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. They tried to prove that the rifle was mailed to his post office box in Dallas, that it was taken to the Paine garage in Irving, and that Oswald carried it to the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22.

In order to determine if the Warren Commission's conclusions were correct, a thorough examination of the documents and evidence relating to the history of this rifle is essential. We will try to determine if Klein's had the rifle in it's inventory in March, 1963, if Oswald purchased the money order used to pay for the rifle, if Klein's deposited that money order into their bank account, if Klein's shipped Oswald a 40.2 inch carbine, if Oswald picked up that rifle from his post office box in Dallas, and if anyone at any time ever saw Oswald with a rifle.

History of the Mannlicher-Carcano

The "Mannlicher-Carcano" was named for the two European's who contributed to the design of the weapon. Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher was a 19th century Austrian gun designer who developed the first successful system for clip-loading a repeating rifle. Salvatore Carcano worked at the Torino Arms Factory in Italy and was responsible for making certain modifications, particularly in the design of the bolt action, to the rifle.

The original Mannlicher-Carcano, developed in 1891, was known as the Model 91. It was 50 inches long and produced by factories in Terni, Torre Annunziata, Torino, and Bresca. In 1893, the Model 91 Cavalry Carbine, a 36 inch long model, 6.5 mm caliber, was introduced. In 1897, the model 91TS (Truppe Speciale) Carbine, a 36 inch long, 6.5 mm carbine, was introduced. The rifle was modified in 1924 and was known as model 91/24 TS, after the original model year (1891) and the year of modification (1924). It was again modified in 1928 and known as model 91/28 TS.

In the 1930's Italian Dictator Mussolini ordered all Italian arms factories to manufacture the Mannlicher-Carcano. In 1938, the Italian military decided to convert all rifles to 7.35 caliber. Three models of the new rifle were produced-Model 38 TS, Model 38 Short Rifle, and Model 38 Cavalry Carbine. The new rifles were manufactured by Beretta, FNA-Brescia, and Gardone in both 36 and 40 inch lengths, with total production of approximately 260,000 rifles.

In late 1939, production of the Model 38, in 7.35 mm caliber, was stopped and changed to 6.5 mm caliber. Three versions of Model 38, in 6.5 mm caliber, were produced-Model 38 TS (204,000), Model 38 Short Rifle (948,000), and Model 38 Cavalry Carbine (1,510,000). They were produced by Beretta, FNA-Brescia, Gardone, and R.E. Terni in both 36 and 40 inch lengths, with total production of approximately 948,000 rifles (Terni produced approximately 800,000). One of these rifles, a 6.5 mm caliber Model 38, was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD after the assassination of President Kennedy.

In 1940 the Italian military wanted to return to a longer rifle, which lead to the production of a 46 inch long rifle in 6.5 mm caliber, known as the Model 41. Approximately 820,000 were produced by R.E. Terni and Armaguerra.

Most Carcano's were stamped with consecutive letter grouped serial numbers in groups of 10,000. The serial numbers consisted of a 4 digit number (0001-9999) and were sometimes were preceeded by a 1 or 2 letter prefix (A-ZZ). Since different factories manufactured the same rifle, some of these weapons had the same serial number, as we shall soon see.

The Italian government sells millions of Mannlicher-Carcano's

In 1958, the Italian military authorities decided to eliminate millons of surplus Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (6.5mm and 7.35mm caliber). The Army Artillery and the Air Force Arms and Munitions Command agreed to dispose of their weapons by competitive bidding. Some of the successful bidders were Interarmco (a CIA proprietary company), Sidem International, Adams Consolidated Industries, Inc. (the successful bidder on one lot of a half millon rifles), Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, and International Firearms of Montreal.

Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods Limited, of Montreal, Canada, was owned by a Mr. Itkovitch and, by 1964, was allegedly out of business. The FBI determined that Empire was taken over by Itkovitch's brother-in-law, William Sucher, who also operated International Firearms Limited, of Montreal.

Sucher told the FBI that in the 1930's Italian Dictator Mussolini ordered all arms factories in Italy to manufacture the Mannlicher-Carcano. He said that since many companies manufactured the same rifle, the same serial number appeared on weapons manufactured by different companies. His company, International Firearms, Ltd., of Montreal, Canada, purchased hundreds of thousands of rifles from the Italian Government as surplus. He said that his company did not maintain a copy of the serial numbers of the rifles as no such listing was required by Canadian law.

Adams Consolidated Industries began life on July 17, 1924, as Adam Hat Stores, Inc. of New York. By 1956 the companies name was changed to Adam Consolidated Industries, Inc. and the company had 17 wholly or partly owned subsidiaries. In 1959 the companies name was changed to Vanderbilt Tire & Rubber Company, Inc., and later to VTR, Inc., which was listed on the American Stock Exchange and had offices at 404 5th Avenue, New York.

Crescent Firearms, Inc, was chartered in the state of New York in 1959. The president of Crescent was Louis Feldsott, who was also the treasurer of H & D Folsom Arms Co. Inc. of Yonkers, New York. His brother, Irving Feldsott, was vice president of H & D. Crescent maintained offices at 2 West 37th Street in New York City. The building was located at the corner of 5th Avenue and 37th Street and was the same building in which Adams Consolidated Industries had it's offices. Although the Adams Consolidated and Crescent Firearms corporations had no formal connection, they shared the same office space, the same receptionist, and the same telephone number, WI-74700-only their street addresses were different. Mr. Joseph Saik, an attorney, was the secretary-treasurer of Crescent Arms and also vice president and secretary-treasurer of VTR, Inc (Adams Consolidated). Mr. Irving Weiss was the comptroller of both VTR, Inc (Adams Consolidated). and Crescent. Adams Consolidated and Crescent Firearms were, therefore, operated and controlled by the same people.

Adams/Crescent purchase 500,000 Mannlicher-Carcano's

In 1958, Adams Consolidated, in conjunction with their sister company Crescent Firearms, purchased a half-million rifles from the Italian government and opened an office at Via Sirte 62, in Rome. Adams paid an average cost of $1.10 for unserviceable 6.5 mm rifles, $2.00 for unserviceable 7.35 mm rifles, $2.70 for serviceable 6.5 mm rifles, and $4.50 for serviceable 7.35 mm rifles.

They contracted with a company in Storo, Italy, owned by Luciano Riva, to recondition, process, pack and ship the rifles at a cost of $1.72 each. Riva reconditioned and shipped 44,490 of the guns from his factory in Storo through the Italian ports of Milan, Naples, and Genoa to New York. One of the shipments, in September, 1960, contained 5200 (520 cartons) Model 91 and Model 38 Mannlicher-Carcano's.

The rifles were packed by a Crescent Company agent in the presence of Italian authorities. Each rifle was individually packaged in a cardboard carton, and 10 cartons were then re-packaged into a single cardboard carton which contained 10 rifles. One copy of a Crescent shipping form, listing both the number of the carton and the serial number of each gun contained within the carton, was placed on both the inside and outside of each carton. Copies of the form were provided to the Italian authorities and a copy was sent to Crescent's office in New York.

The final 12 shipments of Mannlicher-Carcano's left the Storo plant in September, 1960, on a truck bound for Genoa. On September 28, Adams Consolidated/Crescent Firearm's shipment of 520 cartons of rifles was assigned lot number 91594, on Bill of Lading #18, and loaded aboard the steamer Elettra Fassio. The shipment, which included 170 numbered cartons of Model 38-6.5 mm rifles and 350 numbered cartons of Model 91-6.5 mm rifles, left for the US the following day. Unfortunately these Model numbers only partially describe the rifle and do not tell us the length or weight of these rifles.

• Model 38-6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano's were produced in both 36 and 40 inch lengths.

• Model 91-6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano's were produced in 50 inch and 36 inch lengths.

One of the Crescent shipping forms, #3620 (Vol XXI, p 698), was attached to carton number 3376. This carton contained a Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766, which was found by Dallas Police on the 6th floor of the Book Depository following the assassination. By following Crescent's shipping form #3620, which lists both carton #3376 and Mannlicher-Carcano C2766, we can determine the exact date that Crescent Firearms sold C2766 to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

The Mannlicher-Carcano's arrive in the U.S.

On October 15th, the Elettra Fassio steamed into New York harbor and docked. The 520 cartons of rifles were removed and taken to the Harborside Terminal, a bonded warehouse in Jersey City. After being placed in storage, ownership of the rifles was transferred from Adams Consolidated to it's sister company, Crescent Firearms.

Crescent Firearms paid the import and duty fees on the 5200 rifles while customs brokers Freedman and Slater cleared them through US Customs on October 24, 1960. The cost of each rifle, including packing ($1.72 each), shipping from Italy to the US ($.54/rifle), and customs duties ($1.63/rifle) was:

• $4.45 for the unserviceable 6.5 mm rifles

• $6.05 for the serviceable 6.5 mm rifles

Crescent's only additional cost was the inspection, servicing, and shipping of the rifles to Crescent's customers by Fred Rupp, of Perkasie, PA. Rupp had a contract to service and repackage the guns before they were shipped to Crescent's retail customers.

Following the paper trail of Crescent shipping form #3620

Among the cartons listed on US Customs form 7502 was carton number 3376. Affixed to the outside, and placed on the inside, of carton 3376 carton was Crescent shipping form #3620. After the 520 cartons of rifles were reported to customs, the paper trail of Crescent shipping form #3620, carton #3376, and Mannlicher-Carcano rifle-C2766, ends. There are no records from the Harborside Terminal warehouse or Bills of Lading that show the removal or disposition of carton #3376. Crescent's shipping form #3620, carton #3376, and C2766 remain in storage for nearly two years and next appear on June 18, 1962.

Retailing the Mannlicher-Carcano rifles

Importers, such as Adams Consolidated/Crescent Firearms, wholesaled their guns to retail merchants such as Klein's Sporting Goods (Chicago, IL), H.L. Green Company (Dallas, TX), Winfield Arms Corporation (Los Angeles, CA), Golden State Arms (Pasadena, CA), Hunter's Lodge (Alexandria, VA), International Firearms (Montreal, QU), Alden's (Chicago, IL), Seaport Traders (Los Angeles, CA), International Firearms (St. Albans, VT.), Potomac Arms Corp (Alexandria, VA), Eastern Firearms Company (New Brunswick, NJ), Globe Firearms (NY, NY), Walzer Arms, Inc. (Elmsford, NY), Century Arms, Inc. (St. Albans, VT), etc. For wholesale and retail firms selling firearms in the U.S., the law required they list the serial number(s) and name of the person(s) or companies to whom their weapons were sold. Canadian law, however, did not require that firms doing business in Canada, such as International Firearms of Montreal, keep such lists.

Klein's Sporting Goods-1958 thru February, 1962

JFK researchers have long wondered how it was possible that Klein's offered, and "A. Hidell" ordered, a 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano in March, 1963 (C20-T750), yet received a 40 inch rifle. In order to answer this question, we begin by trying to determine whether Klein's had 36 inch or 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's in stock and available for sale in March, 1963.

Klein's Sporting Goods was established in 1885 by Jacob Klein, a former pawnbroker. Over the years Klein's grew into a large firm with 7 retail stores in the Chicago area and a substantial mail-order business. In the late 1950's, the company was run by Jacob Klein's son, Milton Paul Klein.

From early 1958, thru October, 1960, Klein's offered 40 inch long 7.35 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (no catalog number) for sale in the American Rifleman magazine.

From November, 1960, thru February, 1962, they offered a 41 1/2 inch, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, (no catalog number) for $19.88. By February, 1962, they were running out of these these rifles and placed an advertisement in the American Rifleman which read, "While only 200 last......$10.88." As Klein's sold out of their 41 1/2 inch rifles, they placed an order in January, 1962, with Crescent Firearms for Model 91TS rifles-a 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano.

NOTE: Neither the FBI nor the Warren Commission determined if Crescent Firearms was Klein's only supplier of Mannlicher-Carcano's from 1958 thru January, 1962.

Klein's orders 400 Model 91TS rifles on January 15, 1962

A single Klein's purchase order form provided several columns, which allowed for multiple orders of guns, from the same supplier, on the same form. As Klein's was selling out of their 40 inch rifles, they placed an order for 400 Model 91TS Mannlicher-Carcano's from Crescent on January 15, 1962, at a cost of $7.50 each. Klein's assigned this 36 inch carbine catalog number C20-T749, which appeared on both their purchase order form (Klein's order #1222) and their advertisements in the American Rifleman from March, 1962, through February, 1963. A handwritten notation on Klein's purchase order indicates these 400 rifles were received on January 22, 1962.

In March, 1962, Klein's began offering a 4 power scope with their 36 inch carbine, catalog number CT-T750, for $19.95.

On April 13, 1962, Klein's placed a second order, on the same purchase order (order #1243) for 200 Model 91/38 rifles, at a cost of $8.50 each.

On April 13, 1962, Klein's placed a third order, on the same purchase order (order #1243) for 100 Model 91/38 rifles, at a cost of $8.50 each.

From March thru June, 1962, Klein's offered only a 36 inch carbine, catalog number C20-T749, for $11.88. In August, they changed the catalog number to C20-T1196 and raised the price of their 36 inch rifle to $12.88, which they continued to sell thru March, 1963.

We have determined that Klein's stocked and sold only 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifles through their mail order division from March, 1962 thru February, 1963. Klein's allegedly shipped a 40 inch rifle to "A. Hidell," yet we know from advertisements in American Rifleman this model was not available until April, 1963. Where and when did Klein's begin purchasing 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, and in particular C2766?

Mannlicher-Carcano-C2766, is sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962

As Klein's was placing and receiving orders for 36 inch rifles during 1962, the 520 cartons of Mannlicher-Carcano's from the Elletra Fassio were still in storage at the Harborside Terminal warehouse in New Jersey. Among those rifles was a Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766, in carton number 3376.

Beginning in November, 1960, the Harborside Terminal billed Crescent Firearms a fee for storage based upon the number cubic feet used during a particular month. The number of cubic feet was calculated by measuring the length (3'5"), width (1'2") and heighth (11") of the 520 cartons and appears on Harborside Terminal's billing statement, originally dated November 9, 1960. A cardboard carton which measured 41 inches long would have contained 40.2 inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifles.

Crescent's president, Louis Feldsott, told the FBI that his company stored the 520 cartons of imported Mannlicher-Carcano rifles at the Harborside Terminal warehouse until such time that they received a sufficient number of orders from retail customers. After receiving an order, Crescent would arrange for delivery of the rifles and immediately send an invoice to their customer.

On June 18, 1962, Crescent sold and arranged for a shipment of rifles to Klein's Sporting Goods. Included in this shipment was a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766. FBI agents Martin and Francis Grealy interviewed Crescent president Louis Feldsott on the evening of November 22, 1963, in New York. SA Grealy wrote in his report of that interview, "He (Feldsott) also made available 10 shipping slips reflecting the carton number and the rifle numbers in each carton." One of the shipping slips Feldsott gave to SA Grealy was Crescent's shipping form number 3620. This was a copy of the shipping form, filled out by a Crescent agent in Italy in the presence of Italian authorities, that was affixed to carton number 3376, which contained C2766.

These 10 shipping slips with the serial numbers of 10 rifles on each slip tell us that at least 100, and perhaps all of 5200 rifles aboard the Elletro Fascio, were 40 inch 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano's.

NOTE: Louis Feldsott provided an affidavit to the Warren Commission (Vol XI, p 205 ) in which he stated, "On November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted me that asked if Crescent Firearms, Inc., had any records concerning the sale of an Italian made 6.5 mm rifle with serial number C2766. I was able to find a record of the sale of this rifle which indicated that the weapon had been sold to Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., Chicago, Illinois on June 18, 1962. Further records involving the purchase, sale, and transportation of the weapon have been turned over to the FBI."

Crescent's records relating to the purchase, sale and transportation of C2766 to Klein's on June 18, 1962, have never been made public. The Warren Commission never acknowledged or sought to explain the existence of C2766 on June 18, 1962, even though they published Feldsott's affidavit.

The last shipment of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to arrive in the US from Italy were those aboard the Elletro Fassio. When Klein's began receiving 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's from Crescent in June, 1962, they probably placed these rifle in storage as they were currently advertising and selling only 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's. After selling out of the 36 inch rifles, Klein's began advertising and selling their 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's in April, 1964. C2766 was shipped to "A. Hidell" between April and November, 1963.

June, 1962-Mannlicher-Carcano-2766, is sold to Century Arms

William Sucher, owner of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, of Montreal, told the FBI that his firm purchased hundreds of thousands of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles from the Italian government. He said that since many firms manufactured the same rifle, the same serial number could appear on the same style of rifle. In June, 1962, Empire sold 700 Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to Century Arms, Inc. of St. Albans, Vermont (invoice #1078). James Ouimet, owner of Century, told the FBI a Mannlicher-Carcano, with serial number "2766" (no letter prefix "C"), was included in the shipment from Empire (invoice 1078). Century re-sold and shipped the rifle(s) to Aldens, of Chicago, on July 5, 1962."

NOTE: The .38 caliber Smith & Wesson pistol allegedly used to kill Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit and a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number 2766, both came from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods. Curiously, neither the FBI nor Warren Commission investigated, explained, nor addressed the probability that other Mannlicher-Carcano rifles had serial numbers "C2766."

June 18, 1962-Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, is sold to Klein's

On June 18, 1962, Cescent Firearms sold a Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, to Klein's Sporting Goods. Crescent's President, Louis Feldsott, provided FBI agents in New York with shipping form #3620 (1 of 10 forms), which showed Crescent's purchase, transportation, and sale of C2766 to Klein's. Crescent's shipping form #3620, which originated in Italy, was affixed to the outside of carton number 3766, which listed the serial number of 10 rifles, including C2766. The FBI used shipping form #3620 and deceived the Warren Commission and the public by claiming C2766 was sold to Klein's on February 7, 1963, INSTEAD OF ON JUNE 18, 1962.

Fred Rupp

Fred Rupp lived and worked on Mink Road in Perkasie, PA, 12 miles north of Philadelphia, and 100 miles from the Harborside Terminal in Jersey City. According to the FBI, Rupp removed the first 170 cartons of rifles from the Harborside Terminal warehouse on August 29, 1962. He probably took the cartons to Perkasie, PA for servicing and repacking. After completing his work, he probably shipped the 170 cartons (1700 rifles) to Crescent's customer. Unfortunately, there are no bills of lading or documentation from Rupp that indicates which cartons or rifles were shipped to which customer.

There are no carton numbers or serial numbers of rifles listed on any of the Harborside Terminal warehouse records for the remaining 350 cartons of rifles. Rupp removed an additional 90 cartons on October 4, 70 cartons on October 16, 64 cartons on October 24 and 40 cartons on October 31.The 40 cartons (400 rifles) removed by Rupp on October 31, 1962, and taken to Perkasie, PA, for servicing, may have filled Klein's order for 400 rifles (#1222), that was originally placed on January 15, 1962. Unfortunately, there is no documentation to establish when or to whom these rifles were shipped. After October 31, 1962, only 86 cartons (860 rifles) remained in storage at the Harborside Terminal warehouse.

Rupp shipped some of these rifles to Klein's in January, 1963. On Klein's original order for 400 rifles, placed on January 15, 1962, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1222," and the date received-1/22/62.

On the same order form, above the order for 200 rifles, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1243," and the date received- 1/24/63. On a carbon copy of the same form, above the quantity "200," there is a handwritten notation "3166 (Crescent's invoice number)," and the date of Crescent's invoice-1/6/63.

On the same order form, above the order for 100 rifles, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1243," and the date received- 1/24/63. On a carbon copy of the same form, above the quantity "100," there is a handwritten notation "3178 (Crescent's invoice number), and the date of Crescent's invoice-2/7/63. According to the the Warren Commission, this was the order that originated with Fred Rupp and contained both carton #3376 and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, C2766. The Warren Commission and the FBI, however, had no shipping documents or bills of lading to support their claim.

Fred Rupp

The FBI obtained an undated shipping document, allegedly signed by Fred Rupp, which showed that 10 cartons of rifles, weighing 750 pounds, were picked up by North Penn Transfer Company in Pottsville, PA. However, Pottsville is 60 miles northwest of Fred Rupp's hometown of Perkasie.

The FBI next obtained the bill of lading from the North Penn Transfer Company, of Lansdale, PA. This document showed that on February 12, 1963, North Penn picked up 10 cartons of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (100 total), weighing 750 pounds, from Pottsville. The bill of lading does not list any of the carton numbers, serial numbers of rifles, or have the signature of Fred Rupp as shipper. North Penn delivered the 10 cartons of rifles to Lifschultz Fast Freight in Philadelphia on February 13, for further shipment to Klein's in Chicago.

On February 15, 1963, the 10 cartons of rifles, again with no carton numbers or serial numbers listed on the Lifschultz bill of lading, left Philadelphia bound for Chicago. Six days later, on February 21, Lifschultz delivered the 10 cartons to Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., 4540 W. Madison St., Chicago.

Did Klein's receive 36 or 40 inch rifles on February 21, 1963?

The FBI, and later the Warren Commission, claimed that Crescent's shipping form #3620 proved that C2766 was sold to Klein's on February 7, 1963-INSTEAD OF ON JUNE 18, 1962.

At this point, either Louis Feldsott or the FBI is lying about the date that C2766 was sold to Klein's. The same rifle could not have been sold on June 18, 1962, and again on February 7, 1963. Feldsott said he gave documents related to the purchase, transportation, and sale of C2766 to the FBI. But the only document known to exist is an undated transportation document-Crescent's shipping form #3620.

January, 1963-Klein's continues to receive 36 inch rifles

In January, 1963, handwritten notations on Klein's order for 300 Model 91TS rifles, placed April 13, 1962, indicates these orders were filled.

According to both the North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz bills of lading, the 10 cases of rifles (100 rifles) weighted 750 pounds, or 7.5 pounds per rifle. Each of the wooden shipping cartons was measured at 3' 5" long, 1'2" wide, and 11" high by the Harborside Terminal. When empty, each carton weighted approximately 12 lbs, not including packing materials for the rifles. Therefore, each Mannlicher-Carcano received by Klein's on February 21, 1963, weighed less than 6.3 pounds.

According to the FBI, a 40 inch long Mannlicher-Carcano weighed 7 pounds, 11 ounces. One hundred such rifles, plus 10 cartons and packing materials, would weigh nearly 900 pounds-far more than the 750 pound shipment delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963. It is therefore almost certain that Fred Rupp, North Penn Transfer, and Lifschultz Fast Freight shipped 10 cartons of 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano carbines to Klein's in February, 1963. A 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, could not have been among these rifles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 134
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

More from H&L regarding the rifle order:

(excerpt from an early manuscript:

The US Postal Money order

To pay for the rifle and shipping, the Warren Commission concluded that "A. Hidell" purchased a postal money order in Dallas on March 12, in the amount of $21.45. Oswald mailed it to Klein's in Chicago, and it was deposited into their account on March 13.

One of the U. S. Postal Inspectors in Dallas in 1963 was Harry Holmes, an active FBI informant identified by the FBI as "Dallas T-2." Holmes told the Warren Commission that the money order used to purchase the rifle was purchased "early in the morning of March 12." Unfortunately, the Warren Commission failed to ask Holmes how he arrived at this conclusion.

NOTE: How did Harry Holmes, in 1964, know that the money order was purchased on the morning of March 12, 1963? The only known reference to the morning of March 12 is found on the postmark on the envelope (10:30 am) in which the money order was mailed to Klein's, but it was not shown to Holmes during his WC testimony.

On March 12, at 10:30 am, Oswald was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. According to JCS records, he began work on his first camera job at 8:00 am (the same time the post office opened) which lasted 20 minutes. He then worked on 8 other camera jobs throughout the morning until his lunch break from 12:15 to 12:45.

The JCS time records do not allow time for Oswald to have walked to the Dallas post office, purchase the money order from the post office, and returned to work "early in the morning of March 12" (prior to 10:30 am). Oswald could not have purchased and mailed the money order during or after his lunch break, because if the letter was mailed after 12:00 noon it could not have arrived in Chicago, and certainly not at Klein's, by March 13th.

The money order published in the Warren Volumes, #2,202,130,462, was made payable to "Klein's Sporting Goods." The purchaser was listed as "A. Hidell," and the address was listed as "P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." The name "A Hidell" does not appear to have been written by Oswald and appears to be the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

NOTE: the Warren Commission asked FBI document "experts" James Cadigan and Alwyn Cole their opinions of the handwriting of the name "A. Hidell" on the money order. Cole testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald, without comparing any of the writing on the money order with the known writing of Oswald.

James Cadigan testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald and compared only the words "Dallas, Texas" with Oswald's known writing.

Significantly, neither Cadigan nor Cole referred to or offered their opinions as to whether the handwritten "A. Hidell" was similar to Oswald's known writing.

Locating the Postal Money Order

FBI agents John W. Toedt, Robert J. Dolan, and James L. Mahan met with Klein's Sporting Goods officials and reviewed microfilm records during the late hours of November 22 and the early hours of November 23. By 5:00 am, the agents had located the records involving Oswald's alleged purchase of the rifle and confiscated the microfilm. Agent Dolan departed for the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC with film in hand. The microfilm records allegedly included copies of the following documents, later published in the Warren Volumes:

1) an order coupon used by Oswald to order a rifle for $19.95

2) a Klein's order form describing the rifle, the name and address of the purchaser, the cost, and method of payment

3) envelope mailed from Dallas to Klein's dated March 12, 1963

NOTE: it is interesting to note that the envelope allegedly mailed to Klein's was photocopied, but the US postal money order used to pay for the rifle was not microfilmed

A few hours after FBI agents confiscated Klein's microfilm (5:00 am CST), FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover told President Johnson they had already recovered the money order used to pay for the rifle. But, from the available records, we now know that Hoover was either lying or there was a second money order.

On Saturday morning FBI agent John Toedt, one of three FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed their microfilm records, contacted Mr. Cox with the US Post Office in Chicago. Toedt requested the post office's assistance in locating a postal money order and was told to contact the division headquarters in Kansas City.

Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes said "according to the FBI, the amount of the order was $21.95 and had been received by Kleins on March 20, 1963." Holmes told the Warren Commission a slightly different story in 1964. Holmes said, "the FBI furnished me information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963."

A summary report, written by Chief Postal Inspector H.B. Montague on January 17, 1964, titled "Assistance Rendered by the Postal Inspection Service in Investigation of President Kennedy's Assassination" read:

"Advice was received on the morning of November 23 from the FBI that a rifle similar to that found in the sniper's nest had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods Company, Chicago, Illinois, for $21.95, with a postal money order issued March 20, 1963."

NOTE: the Klein's microfilm records were confiscated by FBI agents Toedt, Dolan, and Mahan on November 23 and published in the Warren Volumes. They show a US postal money order dated March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45, a Klein's shipping record dated March 20, and an envelope mailed to Kleins from Dallas postmarked March 12, 1963. If these records came from the Klein's microfilm, then why was there any confusion as to the amount of the money order, the date of the money order, or the date of shipment?

Dallas postal inspectors were unable to locate a money order in the amount of $21.95 or a confirmation of the delivery of a rifle to "A. Hidell" on or about March 20, 1963. On Saturday morning, November 23, Postal Inspector Martin J. McGee, from Chicago, telephoned Dallas and spoke with Postal Inspector Cox. McGee told Cox that Klein's Sporting Goods depositied monies into the First National Bank, Chicago, but the bank did not photographically record deposits. With McGee holding on the line, Cox advised Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes of their conversation. Cox related that the Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, would have cashed postal money orders for the First National Bank of Chicago, but they too did not photographically record deposits. McGee further advised Cox that Klein's had received two cash items on March 13, both in the amount of $21.45. Cox then relayed the information to Holmes who stated that he thought that he would be able to find a record of the money order in Dallas.

After hearing the details of the conversation between McGee and Cox on Saturday morning, November 23, Holmes knew that Klein's had deposited two cash items, in the amount of $21.45, to the First National Bank of Chicago on March 13, 1963. Both Holmes and the FBI also knew that neither the First National Bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, the US Post Office, nor Klein's had made a photographic record of these deposits. With no photographic record, all that remained for Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes to do was produce a US postal money order in the amount of $21.45.

The summary report issued by the US Postal Service on January 17, 1964 explained Holmes' version of how he located the money order:

"Search at the main post office, Dallas, by a postal inspector (Harry Holmes) failed to disclose such an order (postal money order in the amount of $21.95); however, the inspector upon checking undeliverable sporting goods magazines in the post office found an add of Klein's showing the price of an identical rifle for $21.45."

NOTE: There are two different stories as to how Harry Holmes learned about the $21.45 money order:

1) Holmes learned about the two deposits by Klein's on March 13, 1963, each in the amount of $21.45, from the conversation between Inspector McGee and Mr. Cox on Saturday morning, November 23.

2) Holmes told the Warren Commission that he sent his secretary out to purchase some magazines. In one of the magazines he found an advertisement by Kleins for a rifle identical to the one allegedly used to kill the President for $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping-$21.45 total. Holmes said that he then telephoned a postal inspector in Chicago, informed him of his "discovery," and the inspector then confirmed that $21.45 had been deposited to Kleins bank account.

The summary report continued, "The Postal Inspector in Charge at Chicago was so informed immediately and determined through examination of bank deposit slips that Klein's had deposited a money order for $21.45 about March 14, 1963."

NOTE: no one bothered to ask how a postal inspector in Chicago was able to examine bank deposit slips for Kleins Sporting Goods on Saturday morning, November 23.

The summary report continued, "Further search by an inspector at the Dallas post office (Harry Holmes) disclosed record of the issuance of money order No. 2,202,130,462, for $21.45, on March 12, 1963.

NOTE: Holmes claimed to have found the "stub" for money order No. 2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, but the stub was never produced in evidence, nor has it ever been seen, nor was there a single witness that confirmed Holmes' finding of a "stub."

The summary report continued, "This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia on the early evening of November 23." It was turned over to a Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas." The initials of Secret Service Agent John H. Grimes (JHG) appear on the back of the money order that was published in Volume XVII, p 677 (CE 788).

Harry Holmes' efforts appeared to resolve the question of a money order received by Kleins in the amount of $21.95. The money order was dated March 12, 1963, and appeared to match a deposit of $21.45 made to Klein's bank account in Chicago on March 14, 1963. But a simple review of the money order and the bank deposit, as published in the Warren Volumes, shows that neither can be considered as evidence and both may, in fact, be fabrications.

NOTE: None of the FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed the microfilm records were questioned by the Commission.

Locating Money Order No. 2,202,130,462

The US Postal Service reported that National Archives and Records Service employee Robert H. Jackson found the money order at the Federal Records Center in Arlington, Virginia. Jackson then gave the money order to J. Harold Marks of the US Post Office, who notified Secret Service agent John E. Parker at 9:35 pm, November 23. Parker met with Jackson and Marks at Marks residence and obtained the money order. The back side of the money order published in the Warren Volumes (Vol XXIV, p. 261) contains the initials RHJ (Robert H. Jackson), JHM (J. Harold Marks), and JEP (John E. Parker). The date "11-23-63" appears by each of their names.

According to US Postal Inspector H.B. Montague the money order was then hand delivered to Dallas by a Secret Service agent (possibly John H. Grimes). Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate a Secret Service report that confirms the money order was hand carried from Alexandria, Virginia (Washington, DC) to Dallas by Grimes. In Dallas the money order was photocopied by the Dallas Police, initialed by Grimes on November 24, and may have been shown to Oswald.

Two days later, on November 26, Grimes turned the money order over to James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 used to purchase a rifle?

Postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was published in Volume XVII, p 677. Neither the front nor back side contains endorsement or date stamps of the First National Bank (Klein's account), Federal Reserve Bank (clearing bank), or the US Post office. The purpose of endorsement stamps is to track deposits through the banking system and insures that a deposit item is not deposited, or cashed, more than once. If a check or money order lacks endorsement stamps, it means that the check or money order was never deposited or cashed at any financial institution. The lack of endorsement stamps on US postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 means that it was never deposited to any financial institution. According to the postmark, it was obtained from the US post office in Dallas and bears the date of March 12. There has never been an explanation for the the lack of a bank endorsement or date.

The Warren Commission offered this $21.45 unused money order as proof that Oswald purchased a $21.45 rifle (including postage) from Klein's Sporting Goods. According to the FBI and Warren Commission, this money order was deposited on March 14 (or 15th) to Klein's bank account #50 91144 at the First National Bank of Chicago.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 deposited to Kleins account?

When Klein's received a check or money order, they endorsed the reverse side with a rubber stamp and deposited it to their account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The endorsement stamp read:

PAY TO THE ORDER OF

The First National Bank of Chicago

50 91144

KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS, INC.

This deposit stamp appears on the reverse side of the $21.45 money order published in WC Volume XVII, p 677. Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President in the Operations Department of the First National Bank of Chicago, explained the process after which a postal money order was deposited to his bank (into Klein's account). Wilmouth said that when an item was received by First National, it had to be endorsed on the reverse side with the name and number of the account holder (the Klein's endorsement stamp).

Money order 2,202,130,462, when deposited, should have been routinely stamped and dated by the First National Bank of Chicago (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #1). It would then be sent to the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago where it would again be stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #2). Finally, it would be sent to the central processing center in Kansas City where it would be again stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #3).

The $21.45 money order, according to Wilmouth, should have been stamped and dated by three different banking institutions. But not a single bank endorsement stamp or transaction date appears on either the front or back side of the postal money order. It is clear that postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was never deposited or cashed by any bank or financial institution.

NOTE: Bank Vice-President Robert Wilmouth was never called to testify before the Commission. Wilmouth most certainly would have pointed out that the money order was never deposited to any financial institution due to a lack of bank endorsement stamps.

The reader is encouraced to refer to bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Leslie Welding Volume XXIV, p 886-890; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Reilly Coffee-Volume XXIV p 892-900; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of unemployment checks issued to Oswald by the State of Texas-Volume XXII, p 199-202.

Klein's Bank Deposits

Klein's recorded their business transactions from 7 retail stores in the Chicago area and their mail order business on microfilm. The FBI confiscated their microfilm records on November 23, 1963 and took them to the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

The FBI reviewed the microfilm and located a 4 page list of deposits totaling $13, 827.98, including an item for $21.45. Three FBI agents then interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of the First National Bank of Chicago. Wilmouth confirmed that a deposit had been made by Klein's on March 15, 1963, in the amout of $13,827.98. He said that postal money orders were sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn sent them to a central processing center located in Kansas City, Missouri. He also told the agents that his bank did not microfilm money orders, but the Federal Reserve Bank would be able to identify the money order by number.

The three FBI agents next spoke with Lester Gohr, Assistant Cashier, of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. Gohr explained that records regarding postal money orders were kept for six months-the oldest records at the bank were from May 29, 1963. There is no indication that the FBI agents asked Gohr if the Federal Reserve Bank could identify the money order, or the post office from which it was issued, by number.

Klein's vice-president William Waldman testified before the Warren Commission on May 20, 1964. Attorney David Belin handed Waldman postal money order 2,202,130,462 and said, ".....on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank." Belin probably knew the stamp on the reverse side of the money order was Klein's deposit stamp and not a bank endorsement. There was not a single bank endorsement stamp on the money order, even though Belin suggested there was.

Belin asked Waldman when the money order was deposited to the Klein's account. Waldman answered, "I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company...." One of the reasons Waldman could not determine the date of deposit was because there was no date stamp or bank endorsement on the money order. Another reason was nothing identified the source of the $21.45 entry-it was simply a number on paper tape generator by an adding maching. It was one of many such numbers included in a 4 page list of deposits made to Klein's account on March 13, 1963, which totaled $13,827.98.

NOTE: no one attempted to explain how the alleged deposit could have been made to the Kleins' account in Chicago on March 13, 1963-one day after the money order was purchased and mailed from Dallas!

Waldman was unable to say if or when postal money order 2,202,130,462 was deposited to Klein's bank account. He was not asked if the $13,827.98 deposit, which included an item for $21.45, was from their mail order business or one or more of their 7 retail outlets.

A handwritten date of "3/13/63" appears on the 4 page list of deposits, but the date on the First National Bank of Chicago deposit slip for $13,827.98 reads "February 15, 1963." This date is a month before the money order was allegedly purchased. This date may or may not have been a clerical error by either Klein's or the Bank, but neither the FBI nor Warren Commission attempted to resolve this glaring discrepency. Why not ?

The Warren Commission used the $21.45 entry on the paper tape from an adding machine, matched it with the $21.45 on an undeposited postal money order, and offered these items as "proof" that Oswald purchased a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from Klein's in March, 1963.

Postal Money orders issued at the GPO in Dallas-Sept-Dec, 1962

FBI SA Donald E. Stangel wrote a report concerning Oswald's payments to the Department of State, in re-payment of his loan, on November 30, 1963. Stangel obtained cashed money orders, purchased by Oswald and sent to the Department of State, from the Money Order Center, US Post Office Department, in Kansas City. Following is a list of those money orders:

1,156,417,562 $9.71September 1, 1962Ft. Worth

1,156,418,896 $10.00Ft. Worth

1,158,380,709 $10.00November 14, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,596 $100.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,597 $90.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

Between November 14 and December 6 ( 3 1/2 weeks) the US post office in Dallas sold 3887 money orders-slightly more than 1000 per week. Three months later, on March 12, 1963, Oswald allegedly purchased the following money order from the main post office (GPO) in Dallas:

2,202,130,461$21.45March 12, 1963GPO Dallas

Money orders were issued in numerical sequence from both the Dallas and Ft. Worth post offices. By March 12, had they continued selling 1000 money orders per week, the Dallas post office should have seen selling money orders beginning with 1,158,389,000. However, the money order allegedly purchased by Oswald numbered 2,202,130,461. It is doubtful that the Dallas Post office sold 1,043,745,864 (one billion, 43 million, seven hundred forty five thousand.......) money orders in 3 months. The number on the money order made payable to Kleins Sporting Goods suggests that either the money order came from another location or, if from the Dallas post office, came from a different series of money orders.

Summary of the Money Order

It is difficult to believe that neither the FBI, Warren Commission members, nor their staff attornies noticed that bank endorsements and dates of deposits were missing from the postal money order.

• A new postal money order could have been obtained at any time, from any post office. The notation of "Dallas, TX, 3/12/63" could have been placed on the money order at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission concluded that a $21.45 entry from among 4 pages of paper tape from an adding machine represented the deposit of the postal money order.

• A paper tape from an adding machine could have been created anywhere, at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission published the deposit slip for $13,827.98 in the Volumes, dated "February 15, 1963, yet concluded the deposit had been made on March 13, 1963!

• In the absence of original documents, a date could have been placed on records copied from microfilm at any time.

Nevertheless, this was the documentation used by the Warren Commission to prove that Oswald purchased a money order in Dallas to purchase a rifle from Klein's that allegedly was used to assassinate the President of the United States.

Today, it is impossible to verify the date of deposit of the $13,827.98 (which includes the $21.45). Klein's is out of business, their bank records from the First National Bank of Chicago were destroyed long ago, and the Klein's microfilm records disappeared while in FBI custody.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1. Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a. Manufactured at multiple factories.

c. Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d. Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2. Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers.

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a. Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b. Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c. Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d. Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e. Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f. ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3. In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification. However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a. Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b. Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c. Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels. And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4. To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine. It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g. Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number. IE:

a. C 276------with an additional "6" added

b. 276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c. 2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1.  Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a.  Manufactured at multiple factories.

c.  Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d.  Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2.  Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers. 

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b.  Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c.  Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e.  Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f.  ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3.  In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification.  However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels.  And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4.  To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine.  It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number.  IE:

a.  C 276------with an additional "6" added

b.    276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c.    2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

what-a-morass, thanks Jack White - John Armstrong - Tom Purvis for your efforts...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1.  Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a.  Manufactured at multiple factories.

c.  Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d.  Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2.  Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers. 

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b.  Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c.  Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e.  Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f.  ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3.  In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification.  However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels.  And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4.  To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine.  It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number.  IE:

a.  C 276------with an additional "6" added

b.    276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c.    2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

In 1938, the Italian Government embarked on a major caliber change for the Carcano.

Production of the weapon in a 7.35mm caliber was instituted, and the following weapons were produced in this new and larger size.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle*

*The Short Rifle was a new design weapon which had not been produced prior to this.

These weapons, in the 7.35mm caliber, are referred to as the Model 38.

In addition to this larger caliber, the old fold-up/long range rear sight of the weapons was deleted and a fixed rear sight was installed and became an identifying characteristic of those weapons produced begining in 1938.

**It is noted that production of the Rifle (long rifle) in the 7.35mm was not done.

This weapon remained in the 6.5mm caliber.

A further discussion of the 7.35mm caliber will be forthcoming after discussion of the post-1938 6.5mm weapons.

___________________________________________________________________

Within a short time of having converted to the 7.35mm calliber, the Italian Government decided not to proceed with this major design change as WWII was starting. Therefore, a change back to production of only 6.5mm weapons was begun.

With this came the Model 91/38 production in the following rifle designs.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle.

The new Cavalry Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

The new TS Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

With this new design production, the possiibility of a Carbine rifle barrel which contained the serial number C2766 now has an additional five more barrels added to the already large number from the pre-1938 weapons.

This of course also adds to the numbers of those variations of "C2766" which could be made into that number by merely adding additional stamping.

Lastly, of course this new design production also included the new "Short Rifle" in the 6.5mm caliber as well.

Records indicate that this weapon was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

d. Terni

Which should serve to indicate that even with the Carcano M91/38 (6.5mm), Short Rifle, there exists the possibility of having four virtually identical weapons which bear the serial number C2766, with the only identifiable difference being the plant stamp of manufacture/assembly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1.  Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a.  Manufactured at multiple factories.

c.  Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d.  Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2.  Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers. 

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b.  Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c.  Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e.  Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f.   ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3.  In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification.  However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels.  And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4.  To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine.  It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f.   Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number.  IE:

a.  C 276------with an additional "6" added

b.     276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c.     2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

In 1938, the Italian Government embarked on a major caliber change for the Carcano.

Production of the weapon in a 7.35mm caliber was instituted, and the following weapons were produced in this new and larger size.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle*

*The Short Rifle was a new design weapon which had not been produced prior to this.

These weapons, in the 7.35mm caliber, are referred to as the Model 38.

In addition to this larger caliber, the old fold-up/long range rear sight of the weapons was deleted and a fixed rear sight was installed and became an identifying characteristic of those weapons produced begining in 1938.

**It is noted that production of the Rifle (long rifle) in the 7.35mm was not done.

This weapon remained in the 6.5mm caliber.

A further discussion of the 7.35mm caliber will be forthcoming after discussion of the post-1938 6.5mm weapons.

___________________________________________________________________

Within a short time of having converted to the 7.35mm calliber, the Italian Government decided not to proceed with this major design change as WWII was starting. Therefore, a change back to production of only 6.5mm weapons was begun.

With this came the Model 91/38 production in the following rifle designs.

a. Cavalry Carbine

b. TS Carbine

c. Short Rifle.

The new Cavalry Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

The new TS Carbine in the 6.5mm version was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

With this new design production, the possiibility of a Carbine rifle barrel which contained the serial number C2766 now has an additional five more barrels added to the already large number from the pre-1938 weapons.

This of course also adds to the numbers of those variations of "C2766" which could be made into that number by merely adding additional stamping.

Lastly, of course this new design production also included the new "Short Rifle" in the 6.5mm caliber as well.

Records indicate that this weapon was produced at:

a. Beretta

b. Brescia

c. Gardone

d. Terni

Which should serve to indicate that even with the Carcano M91/38 (6.5mm), Short Rifle, there exists the possibility of having four virtually identical weapons which bear the serial number C2766, with the only identifiable difference being the plant stamp of manufacture/assembly.

Now, the Italian Government has come full circle back to production of only 6.5mm rifles for it's forces.

However, there also exists a considerable supply of Cavalry Carbines; TS Carbines; and Short Rifles, which were produced in the 7.35mm version.

Thereafter, many of these weapons were recalled into the Italian Armament plants and the weapons were modified back to the 6.5mm version.

Since this was a originally a totally separate model and caliber weapon, it's serial number issue was separate as well.

Therefore, there could have easily been serial# C2766 weapons issued in each of the three versions of weapons by each of the separate plants which produced these rifles.

It is unknown as to what serial numbering system was utilized when these weapons were returned and re-conditioned to the 6.5mm caliber.

To date, I have found only three indicators as a means to determine which of the M91/38 6.5mm Short Rifles may be originally produced as this, as opposed to formerly 7.35mm versions which were converted back to the 6.5mm versions.

These are:

a. Serial number on the weapon stock. If the serial number on the weapon stock does not match that of the actual rifle barrel, then to a relative high probability, the weapon was a 7.35mm which was converted back.

b. "Double" barrel alignment marks. On the bottom/underside of the barrel, at the juncture where the barrel screws up tight against the frame/breech, the barrel has a slightly flat surface area.

This area was utilized to install "alignment" marks on the weapon once the barrel was fully seated and tested, at the factory.

After which, a mark was made with a form of chisel, which created a mark on the barrel as well as a corresponding mark on the receiver.

These marks remain in alignment and can be readily observed when the weapon is disassembled.

In the event there has been a barrel change on the weapon, the receiver will generally bear two indications of alignment markings. One mark from the original barrel alignment and one mark from the new alignment, which should correspond to/align with the marking on the current barrel.

In event the receiver has two of these alignment markings, then to a relative high degree of probability, this is as a result of having a previous barrel installed, prior to the current weapon barrel.

C. "Crown" & "TNI" mark. Those weapons which have exibited a barrel change that I have observed, also had stamped onto the receiver, markings which were not observed on "original" weapons.

This marking consists of an extremely small oval/circle with the inside of the circle bearing a "Crown" and "TNI", which appears to be for the Terni plant where the modifications to the weapon was done.

Although adequate verification of this marking and reasons for the marking are still speculative, the one "changeout" Short Rifle in my possession has this marking, with a "Terni" barrel installed, as well as the dual barrel alignment marks and separate serial numbers on the stock as opposed to the barrel.

Oddly enough, this weapon also has a "39" stamped into the underside of the frame, whereas the barrel has the "1940 XVIII" mark.

With the inadequate information available relative to the changeout of the 7.35mm version back to the 6.5mm version of the Short Rifle, there is no way to verify, or disprove that the serial number C2677 was or was not installed on the new 6.5mm barrels when these weapons were changed back.*

*The entire topic of the "changeout" of the Carcano is still an item of dispute.

Some persons contend that no confirmed records exists which would prove that any of the 7.35mm versions were converted back to the 6.5mm versions.

The contradictory serial numbers on the stocks, as opposed to the actual weapon provide no substantive proof that this occurred, as this change could have easily occurred at any stage in the life of the weapon.

The singly most indicative evidence that this actually occurred is the barrel alignment marks on the underside of the barrel and weapon frame, which frequently serves to indicate barrel changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Just one of many sources available which assist in resolving how 6.5mm Carcano rifles ended up in the hands of Yugoslav "freedom fighters" after WWII, and into the early 1950's.

Which makes for a somewhat curious "coincidence".

"Force 399" was the code name for covert paramilitary operations in the Balkans (including Yugoslavia) through the 1940-1951 time period.

These operations were headed primarily by Franklin Lindsey, former OSS/Jedburgh who now was employed directly by the CIA (& forefather).

Also under operational jurisdiction of Lindsey was Frank Wisner.

These were primarily those missions which failed due to the British Spy Kim Philby.

Two of the "code names" for these operations were "Surbitron" & "Barking".

One could speculate that usage of an identification such as CE 399, could constitute waving a red flag into the face of someone.

Especially considering the circumstances under which CE399 were manufactured.

Tom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
More from H&L regarding the rifle order:

(excerpt from an early manuscript:

The US Postal Money order

To pay for the rifle and shipping, the Warren Commission concluded that "A. Hidell" purchased a postal money order in Dallas on March 12, in the amount of $21.45. Oswald mailed it to Klein's in Chicago, and it was deposited into their account on March 13.

One of the U. S. Postal Inspectors in Dallas in 1963 was Harry Holmes, an active FBI informant identified by the FBI as "Dallas T-2." Holmes told the Warren Commission that the money order used to purchase the rifle was purchased "early in the morning of March 12." Unfortunately, the Warren Commission failed to ask Holmes how he arrived at this conclusion.

NOTE: How did Harry Holmes, in 1964, know that the money order was purchased on the morning of March 12, 1963? The only known reference to the morning of March 12 is found on the postmark on the envelope (10:30 am) in which the money order was mailed to Klein's, but it was not shown to Holmes during his WC testimony.

On March 12, at 10:30 am, Oswald was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. According to JCS records, he began work on his first camera job at 8:00 am (the same time the post office opened) which lasted 20 minutes. He then worked on 8 other camera jobs throughout the morning until his lunch break from 12:15 to 12:45.

The JCS time records do not allow time for Oswald to have walked to the Dallas post office, purchase the money order from the post office, and returned to work "early in the morning of March 12" (prior to 10:30 am). Oswald could not have purchased and mailed the money order during or after his lunch break, because if the letter was mailed after 12:00 noon it could not have arrived in Chicago, and certainly not at Klein's, by March 13th.

The money order published in the Warren Volumes, #2,202,130,462, was made payable to "Klein's Sporting Goods." The purchaser was listed as "A. Hidell," and the address was listed as "P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." The name "A Hidell" does not appear to have been written by Oswald and appears to be the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

NOTE: the Warren Commission asked FBI document "experts" James Cadigan and Alwyn Cole their opinions of the handwriting of the name "A. Hidell" on the money order. Cole testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald, without comparing any of the writing on the money order with the known writing of Oswald.

James Cadigan testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald and compared only the words "Dallas, Texas" with Oswald's known writing.

Significantly, neither Cadigan nor Cole referred to or offered their opinions as to whether the handwritten "A. Hidell" was similar to Oswald's known writing.

Locating the Postal Money Order

FBI agents John W. Toedt, Robert J. Dolan, and James L. Mahan met with Klein's Sporting Goods officials and reviewed microfilm records during the late hours of November 22 and the early hours of November 23. By 5:00 am, the agents had located the records involving Oswald's alleged purchase of the rifle and confiscated the microfilm. Agent Dolan departed for the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC with film in hand. The microfilm records allegedly included copies of the following documents, later published in the Warren Volumes:

1) an order coupon used by Oswald to order a rifle for $19.95

2) a Klein's order form describing the rifle, the name and address of the purchaser, the cost, and method of payment

3) envelope mailed from Dallas to Klein's dated March 12, 1963

NOTE: it is interesting to note that the envelope allegedly mailed to Klein's was photocopied, but the US postal money order used to pay for the rifle was not microfilmed

A few hours after FBI agents confiscated Klein's microfilm (5:00 am CST), FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover told President Johnson they had already recovered the money order used to pay for the rifle. But, from the available records, we now know that Hoover was either lying or there was a second money order.

On Saturday morning FBI agent John Toedt, one of three FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed their microfilm records, contacted Mr. Cox with the US Post Office in Chicago. Toedt requested the post office's assistance in locating a postal money order and was told to contact the division headquarters in Kansas City.

Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes said "according to the FBI, the amount of the order was $21.95 and had been received by Kleins on March 20, 1963." Holmes told the Warren Commission a slightly different story in 1964. Holmes said, "the FBI furnished me information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963."

A summary report, written by Chief Postal Inspector H.B. Montague on January 17, 1964, titled "Assistance Rendered by the Postal Inspection Service in Investigation of President Kennedy's Assassination" read:

"Advice was received on the morning of November 23 from the FBI that a rifle similar to that found in the sniper's nest had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods Company, Chicago, Illinois, for $21.95, with a postal money order issued March 20, 1963."

NOTE: the Klein's microfilm records were confiscated by FBI agents Toedt, Dolan, and Mahan on November 23 and published in the Warren Volumes. They show a US postal money order dated March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45, a Klein's shipping record dated March 20, and an envelope mailed to Kleins from Dallas postmarked March 12, 1963. If these records came from the Klein's microfilm, then why was there any confusion as to the amount of the money order, the date of the money order, or the date of shipment?

Dallas postal inspectors were unable to locate a money order in the amount of $21.95 or a confirmation of the delivery of a rifle to "A. Hidell" on or about March 20, 1963. On Saturday morning, November 23, Postal Inspector Martin J. McGee, from Chicago, telephoned Dallas and spoke with Postal Inspector Cox. McGee told Cox that Klein's Sporting Goods depositied monies into the First National Bank, Chicago, but the bank did not photographically record deposits. With McGee holding on the line, Cox advised Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes of their conversation. Cox related that the Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, would have cashed postal money orders for the First National Bank of Chicago, but they too did not photographically record deposits. McGee further advised Cox that Klein's had received two cash items on March 13, both in the amount of $21.45. Cox then relayed the information to Holmes who stated that he thought that he would be able to find a record of the money order in Dallas.

After hearing the details of the conversation between McGee and Cox on Saturday morning, November 23, Holmes knew that Klein's had deposited two cash items, in the amount of $21.45, to the First National Bank of Chicago on March 13, 1963. Both Holmes and the FBI also knew that neither the First National Bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, the US Post Office, nor Klein's had made a photographic record of these deposits. With no photographic record, all that remained for Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes to do was produce a US postal money order in the amount of $21.45.

The summary report issued by the US Postal Service on January 17, 1964 explained Holmes' version of how he located the money order:

"Search at the main post office, Dallas, by a postal inspector (Harry Holmes) failed to disclose such an order (postal money order in the amount of $21.95); however, the inspector upon checking undeliverable sporting goods magazines in the post office found an add of Klein's showing the price of an identical rifle for $21.45."

NOTE: There are two different stories as to how Harry Holmes learned about the $21.45 money order:

1) Holmes learned about the two deposits by Klein's on March 13, 1963, each in the amount of $21.45, from the conversation between Inspector McGee and Mr. Cox on Saturday morning, November 23.

2) Holmes told the Warren Commission that he sent his secretary out to purchase some magazines. In one of the magazines he found an advertisement by Kleins for a rifle identical to the one allegedly used to kill the President for $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping-$21.45 total. Holmes said that he then telephoned a postal inspector in Chicago, informed him of his "discovery," and the inspector then confirmed that $21.45 had been deposited to Kleins bank account.

The summary report continued, "The Postal Inspector in Charge at Chicago was so informed immediately and determined through examination of bank deposit slips that Klein's had deposited a money order for $21.45 about March 14, 1963."

NOTE: no one bothered to ask how a postal inspector in Chicago was able to examine bank deposit slips for Kleins Sporting Goods on Saturday morning, November 23.

The summary report continued, "Further search by an inspector at the Dallas post office (Harry Holmes) disclosed record of the issuance of money order No. 2,202,130,462, for $21.45, on March 12, 1963.

NOTE: Holmes claimed to have found the "stub" for money order No. 2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, but the stub was never produced in evidence, nor has it ever been seen, nor was there a single witness that confirmed Holmes' finding of a "stub."

The summary report continued, "This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia on the early evening of November 23." It was turned over to a Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas." The initials of Secret Service Agent John H. Grimes (JHG) appear on the back of the money order that was published in Volume XVII, p 677 (CE 788).

Harry Holmes' efforts appeared to resolve the question of a money order received by Kleins in the amount of $21.95. The money order was dated March 12, 1963, and appeared to match a deposit of $21.45 made to Klein's bank account in Chicago on March 14, 1963. But a simple review of the money order and the bank deposit, as published in the Warren Volumes, shows that neither can be considered as evidence and both may, in fact, be fabrications.

NOTE: None of the FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed the microfilm records were questioned by the Commission.

Locating Money Order No. 2,202,130,462

The US Postal Service reported that National Archives and Records Service employee Robert H. Jackson found the money order at the Federal Records Center in Arlington, Virginia. Jackson then gave the money order to J. Harold Marks of the US Post Office, who notified Secret Service agent John E. Parker at 9:35 pm, November 23. Parker met with Jackson and Marks at Marks residence and obtained the money order. The back side of the money order published in the Warren Volumes (Vol XXIV, p. 261) contains the initials RHJ (Robert H. Jackson), JHM (J. Harold Marks), and JEP (John E. Parker). The date "11-23-63" appears by each of their names.

According to US Postal Inspector H.B. Montague the money order was then hand delivered to Dallas by a Secret Service agent (possibly John H. Grimes). Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate a Secret Service report that confirms the money order was hand carried from Alexandria, Virginia (Washington, DC) to Dallas by Grimes. In Dallas the money order was photocopied by the Dallas Police, initialed by Grimes on November 24, and may have been shown to Oswald.

Two days later, on November 26, Grimes turned the money order over to James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 used to purchase a rifle?

Postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was published in Volume XVII, p 677. Neither the front nor back side contains endorsement or date stamps of the First National Bank (Klein's account), Federal Reserve Bank (clearing bank), or the US Post office. The purpose of endorsement stamps is to track deposits through the banking system and insures that a deposit item is not deposited, or cashed, more than once. If a check or money order lacks endorsement stamps, it means that the check or money order was never deposited or cashed at any financial institution. The lack of endorsement stamps on US postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 means that it was never deposited to any financial institution. According to the postmark, it was obtained from the US post office in Dallas and bears the date of March 12. There has never been an explanation for the the lack of a bank endorsement or date.

The Warren Commission offered this $21.45 unused money order as proof that Oswald purchased a $21.45 rifle (including postage) from Klein's Sporting Goods. According to the FBI and Warren Commission, this money order was deposited on March 14 (or 15th) to Klein's bank account #50 91144 at the First National Bank of Chicago.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 deposited to Kleins account?

When Klein's received a check or money order, they endorsed the reverse side with a rubber stamp and deposited it to their account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The endorsement stamp read:

PAY TO THE ORDER OF

The First National Bank of Chicago

50 91144

KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS, INC.

This deposit stamp appears on the reverse side of the $21.45 money order published in WC Volume XVII, p 677. Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President in the Operations Department of the First National Bank of Chicago, explained the process after which a postal money order was deposited to his bank (into Klein's account). Wilmouth said that when an item was received by First National, it had to be endorsed on the reverse side with the name and number of the account holder (the Klein's endorsement stamp).

Money order 2,202,130,462, when deposited, should have been routinely stamped and dated by the First National Bank of Chicago (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #1). It would then be sent to the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago where it would again be stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #2). Finally, it would be sent to the central processing center in Kansas City where it would be again stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #3).

The $21.45 money order, according to Wilmouth, should have been stamped and dated by three different banking institutions. But not a single bank endorsement stamp or transaction date appears on either the front or back side of the postal money order. It is clear that postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was never deposited or cashed by any bank or financial institution.

NOTE: Bank Vice-President Robert Wilmouth was never called to testify before the Commission. Wilmouth most certainly would have pointed out that the money order was never deposited to any financial institution due to a lack of bank endorsement stamps.

The reader is encouraced to refer to bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Leslie Welding Volume XXIV, p 886-890; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Reilly Coffee-Volume XXIV p 892-900; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of unemployment checks issued to Oswald by the State of Texas-Volume XXII, p 199-202.

Klein's Bank Deposits

Klein's recorded their business transactions from 7 retail stores in the Chicago area and their mail order business on microfilm. The FBI confiscated their microfilm records on November 23, 1963 and took them to the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

The FBI reviewed the microfilm and located a 4 page list of deposits totaling $13, 827.98, including an item for $21.45. Three FBI agents then interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of the First National Bank of Chicago. Wilmouth confirmed that a deposit had been made by Klein's on March 15, 1963, in the amout of $13,827.98. He said that postal money orders were sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn sent them to a central processing center located in Kansas City, Missouri. He also told the agents that his bank did not microfilm money orders, but the Federal Reserve Bank would be able to identify the money order by number.

The three FBI agents next spoke with Lester Gohr, Assistant Cashier, of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. Gohr explained that records regarding postal money orders were kept for six months-the oldest records at the bank were from May 29, 1963. There is no indication that the FBI agents asked Gohr if the Federal Reserve Bank could identify the money order, or the post office from which it was issued, by number.

Klein's vice-president William Waldman testified before the Warren Commission on May 20, 1964. Attorney David Belin handed Waldman postal money order 2,202,130,462 and said, ".....on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank." Belin probably knew the stamp on the reverse side of the money order was Klein's deposit stamp and not a bank endorsement. There was not a single bank endorsement stamp on the money order, even though Belin suggested there was.

Belin asked Waldman when the money order was deposited to the Klein's account. Waldman answered, "I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company...." One of the reasons Waldman could not determine the date of deposit was because there was no date stamp or bank endorsement on the money order. Another reason was nothing identified the source of the $21.45 entry-it was simply a number on paper tape generator by an adding maching. It was one of many such numbers included in a 4 page list of deposits made to Klein's account on March 13, 1963, which totaled $13,827.98.

NOTE: no one attempted to explain how the alleged deposit could have been made to the Kleins' account in Chicago on March 13, 1963-one day after the money order was purchased and mailed from Dallas!

Waldman was unable to say if or when postal money order 2,202,130,462 was deposited to Klein's bank account. He was not asked if the $13,827.98 deposit, which included an item for $21.45, was from their mail order business or one or more of their 7 retail outlets.

A handwritten date of "3/13/63" appears on the 4 page list of deposits, but the date on the First National Bank of Chicago deposit slip for $13,827.98 reads "February 15, 1963." This date is a month before the money order was allegedly purchased. This date may or may not have been a clerical error by either Klein's or the Bank, but neither the FBI nor Warren Commission attempted to resolve this glaring discrepency. Why not ?

The Warren Commission used the $21.45 entry on the paper tape from an adding machine, matched it with the $21.45 on an undeposited postal money order, and offered these items as "proof" that Oswald purchased a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from Klein's in March, 1963.

Postal Money orders issued at the GPO in Dallas-Sept-Dec, 1962

FBI SA Donald E. Stangel wrote a report concerning Oswald's payments to the Department of State, in re-payment of his loan, on November 30, 1963. Stangel obtained cashed money orders, purchased by Oswald and sent to the Department of State, from the Money Order Center, US Post Office Department, in Kansas City. Following is a list of those money orders:

1,156,417,562 $9.71September 1, 1962Ft. Worth

1,156,418,896 $10.00Ft. Worth

1,158,380,709 $10.00November 14, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,596 $100.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,597 $90.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

Between November 14 and December 6 ( 3 1/2 weeks) the US post office in Dallas sold 3887 money orders-slightly more than 1000 per week. Three months later, on March 12, 1963, Oswald allegedly purchased the following money order from the main post office (GPO) in Dallas:

2,202,130,461$21.45March 12, 1963GPO Dallas

Money orders were issued in numerical sequence from both the Dallas and Ft. Worth post offices. By March 12, had they continued selling 1000 money orders per week, the Dallas post office should have seen selling money orders beginning with 1,158,389,000. However, the money order allegedly purchased by Oswald numbered 2,202,130,461. It is doubtful that the Dallas Post office sold 1,043,745,864 (one billion, 43 million, seven hundred forty five thousand.......) money orders in 3 months. The number on the money order made payable to Kleins Sporting Goods suggests that either the money order came from another location or, if from the Dallas post office, came from a different series of money orders.

Summary of the Money Order

It is difficult to believe that neither the FBI, Warren Commission members, nor their staff attornies noticed that bank endorsements and dates of deposits were missing from the postal money order.

• A new postal money order could have been obtained at any time, from any post office. The notation of "Dallas, TX, 3/12/63" could have been placed on the money order at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission concluded that a $21.45 entry from among 4 pages of paper tape from an adding machine represented the deposit of the postal money order.

• A paper tape from an adding machine could have been created anywhere, at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission published the deposit slip for $13,827.98 in the Volumes, dated "February 15, 1963," yet concluded the deposit had been made on March 13, 1963!

• In the absence of original documents, a date could have been placed on records copied from microfilm at any time.

Nevertheless, this was the documentation used by the Warren Commission to prove that Oswald purchased a money order in Dallas to purchase a rifle from Klein's that allegedly was used to assassinate the President of the United States.

Today, it is impossible to verify the date of deposit of the $13,827.98 (which includes the $21.45). Klein's is out of business, their bank records from the First National Bank of Chicago were destroyed long ago, and the Klein's microfilm records disappeared while in FBI custody.

_____________________________________

Jack,

Fascinating article. The fact that the signature "A. Hidell" on the money order appeared to be Marina Oswald's writing is interesting. If true, I suppose the most likely reason she would do it was because LHO asked her to, but... maybe she ordered the rifle (or at least signed the money order) to help set him up as the "patsy".........??? Maybe he wasn't even aware of the rifle "in the Paine's garage" and maybe the famous backyard photos of Lee with rifle and revolver and two (opposed) Communist periodicals are fake (I've always thought so)..................................

FWIW, Thomas :ice

_____________________________________

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... and two (opposed) Communist periodicals ...

a separate issue to Rifles:

I've spent some time looking at this issue in order to see how significant it is and I suspect it is different in fact from what is often assumed.

It is true that the Socialist Workers Party and the Communist Party historically are in opposition on fundamental issues.

However, it is also true that one thing that FBI/COINTELPRO sought to do was to foster this division.

In the early 60's the two groups, in the US, were repeatedly coming together on issues. They were sharing ad space, appearing on joint panels, and I suspect from some letters, were aware of COINTELPRO attempts to drive them apart, and in reply to false communications from the FBI respond with a refusal to take advantage of difficult situations the other are in.

So there appears to be a coming together. And a COINTELPRO impulse to separate.

So as a consideration re the backyard photos, this must be taken into account. Exactly what it would mean, I'm not sure. It needs thinking about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack ;)

Well!

Anyone that can devote 50 pages to this subject fully has done his homework and deserves to have his works purchased if for no other reason than to check out the Carcano information.

Although having heard of the work, as well as some of the "Harvey & Lee" claims, I personally never bothered with it as:

1. I ceased to expend funds attempting to resolve issues on this subject, long ago.

2. I was under the misguided impression that the book dealt with only the subject of the title and was unaware of other aspects which would certainly make the book worth review.

Tom

P.S. For those unaware of it there were most assuredly two M. Oswalds.

Since this was posted here, then may as well continue.

Robert E. Lee Oswald, reportedly the father of LHO, had been married prior to his marriage to Marguerite Claverie.

The first wife of Robert E. Lee Oswald was Margaret (?) (I have it somewhere & it is unimportant).

After divorce, she kept the married name of Margaret Oswald for a considerable number of years.

Therefore, there was once, in New Orleans, LA, a Margaret Oswald as well as a Marguerite Claverie Oswald, both having been married to Robert E. Lee Oswald.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, in reference to the gun!

From the "Pawley" posting, one should be fully aware that William D. Pawley as well as Carlos Prio, were in league together on the Havana Bus system which Prio assisted Pawley in obtaining.

Prio, as an initial supporter of Fidel Castro, was responsibile for providing much of the funding for Castro's attempts at overthrow of Batista, to include providing arms and ammunition.

In fact, from the postings, it can be seen that Carlos Prio was arrested and plead "no contest" to the charge of arms smuggling during the early phases of the Castro revolution.

Many are unaware that Carlos Prio, Fidel Castro, and Rafael Trujullo of the Dominican Republic were in league together during the initial phases of the Castro revolution to oust Batista.

Trujillo was a personal friend of William D. Pawley as well, and Pawley had nothing but praise for this dictator.

No doubt, somewhat connected to the association of sugar.

With this, one should take a close look at the original plans/intentions/aspirations of LHO.

________________________________________________________________________________

________

Mr. DELGADO - Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from, the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER - A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO - Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER - Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO - Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO - Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER - So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO - Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-...-guerrillas.jpg

A photo of William Morgan in Cuba during the early phase of the Castro revolution.

(William Morgan seated with Beret)

& I do believe that is a 91/38 Carcano which I see just to the right.

As well as a "long rifle" in the backgound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack ;)

Well!

Anyone that can devote 50 pages to this subject fully has done his homework and deserves to have his works purchased if for no other reason than to check out the Carcano information.

Although having heard of the work, as well as some of the "Harvey & Lee" claims, I personally never bothered with it as:

1. I ceased to expend funds attempting to resolve issues on this subject, long ago.

2. I was under the misguided impression that the book dealt with only the subject of the title and was unaware of other aspects which would certainly make the book worth review.

Tom

P.S. For those unaware of it there were most assuredly two M. Oswalds.

Since this was posted here, then may as well continue.

Robert E. Lee Oswald, reportedly the father of LHO, had been married prior to his marriage to Marguerite Claverie.

The first wife of Robert E. Lee Oswald was Margaret (?) (I have it somewhere & it is unimportant).

After divorce, she kept the married name of Margaret Oswald for a considerable number of years.

Therefore, there was once, in New Orleans, LA, a Margaret Oswald as well as a Marguerite Claverie Oswald, both having been married to Robert E. Lee Oswald.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, in reference to the gun!

From the "Pawley" posting, one should be fully aware that William D. Pawley as well as Carlos Prio, were in league together on the Havana Bus system which Prio assisted Pawley in obtaining.

Prio, as an initial supporter of Fidel Castro, was responsibile for providing much of the funding for Castro's attempts at overthrow of Batista, to include providing arms and ammunition.

In fact, from the postings, it can be seen that Carlos Prio was arrested and plead "no contest" to the charge of arms smuggling during the early phases of the Castro revolution.

Many are unaware that Carlos Prio, Fidel Castro, and Rafael Trujullo of the Dominican Republic were in league together during the initial phases of the Castro revolution to oust Batista.

Trujillo was a personal friend of William D. Pawley as well, and Pawley had nothing but praise for this dictator.

No doubt, somewhat connected to the association of sugar.

With this, one should take a close look at the original plans/intentions/aspirations of LHO.

________________________________________________________________________________

________

Mr. DELGADO - Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from, the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER - A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO - Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER - Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO - Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO - Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER - So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO - Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-...-guerrillas.jpg

A photo of William Morgan in Cuba during the early phase of the Castro revolution.

(William Morgan seated with Beret)

& I do believe that is a 91/38 Carcano which I see just to the right.

As well as a "long rifle" in the backgound.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-...-guerrillas.jpg

A photo of William Morgan in Cuba during the early phase of the Castro revolution.

(William Morgan seated with Beret)

& I do believe that is a 91/38 Carcano which I see just to the right.

As well as a "long rifle" in the backgound.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...mo/history.html

Non-Italian Military Loads

Winchester Repeating Arms, of the US, manufactured 6.5x52 Carcano under a CIA during the early 50's. The intended use is not clear, but varies from being supplemental production for the Italian Military, use during the Greek civil-war, anti-communist efforts in Albania, etc. These rounds found their way into the surplus market in the early 1960's. The rounds supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy were from this production.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/pr...,820245,00.html

Sep. 20, 1954

Former President Carlos Prio Socarras of Cuba placed himself at the disposal of a U.S. District Court in New York last week with a plea of nolo contendere* to charges of conspiring to violate the 1939 U.S. Neutrality Act by attempting to ship arms to Cuba (TIME, Dec. 14). Federal Judge Edmund L. Palmieri fined the ex-President $9,000; in a similar procedure, his onetime Interior Minister, Segundo Curd Messina, was fined $6,000.

Said Prio: "I decided to change my defense from 'not guilty' to nolo contendere because I thought that in my position it was more dignified to do so." Defending Prio, Manhattan Lawyer Samuel I. Rosenman, one-time ghostwriter for President Franklin D. Roosevelt, contended that his client's acts had been political and his violation of U.S. neutrality a technicality.

Judge Palmieri agreed that "the defendants are not criminals in the strict sense of the term," although there was no question that U.S. law had been broken.

*Legal definition: "A plea by the defendant in a criminal prosecution, which, without admitting guilt, subjects him to conviction."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would suppose that were one going into conflict and their weaponery consisted of Manlicher Carcano rifles, then one would most probably also want and require some reliable ammunition for said weapons.

The old Italian version of the ammo certainly was neither that reliable or readily available.

Amazing what one can accomplish when they "right" persons are known, as well as when one has the money with which to pay for something.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKspragueE.htm

They received it from Carlos Prio Socarras in Miami, who brought more than 50 million dollars out of Cuba.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack ;)

Well!

Anyone that can devote 50 pages to this subject fully has done his homework and deserves to have his works purchased if for no other reason than to check out the Carcano information.

Although having heard of the work, as well as some of the "Harvey & Lee" claims, I personally never bothered with it as:

1. I ceased to expend funds attempting to resolve issues on this subject, long ago.

2. I was under the misguided impression that the book dealt with only the subject of the title and was unaware of other aspects which would certainly make the book worth review.

Tom

P.S. For those unaware of it there were most assuredly two M. Oswalds.

Since this was posted here, then may as well continue.

Robert E. Lee Oswald, reportedly the father of LHO, had been married prior to his marriage to Marguerite Claverie.

The first wife of Robert E. Lee Oswald was Margaret (?) (I have it somewhere & it is unimportant).

After divorce, she kept the married name of Margaret Oswald for a considerable number of years.

Therefore, there was once, in New Orleans, LA, a Margaret Oswald as well as a Marguerite Claverie Oswald, both having been married to Robert E. Lee Oswald.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, in reference to the gun!

From the "Pawley" posting, one should be fully aware that William D. Pawley as well as Carlos Prio, were in league together on the Havana Bus system which Prio assisted Pawley in obtaining.

Prio, as an initial supporter of Fidel Castro, was responsibile for providing much of the funding for Castro's attempts at overthrow of Batista, to include providing arms and ammunition.

In fact, from the postings, it can be seen that Carlos Prio was arrested and plead "no contest" to the charge of arms smuggling during the early phases of the Castro revolution.

Many are unaware that Carlos Prio, Fidel Castro, and Rafael Trujullo of the Dominican Republic were in league together during the initial phases of the Castro revolution to oust Batista.

Trujillo was a personal friend of William D. Pawley as well, and Pawley had nothing but praise for this dictator.

No doubt, somewhat connected to the association of sugar.

With this, one should take a close look at the original plans/intentions/aspirations of LHO.

________________________________________________________________________________

________

Mr. DELGADO - Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from, the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER - A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO - Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER - Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO - Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO - Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER - So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO - Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-...-guerrillas.jpg

A photo of William Morgan in Cuba during the early phase of the Castro revolution.

(William Morgan seated with Beret)

& I do believe that is a 91/38 Carcano which I see just to the right.

As well as a "long rifle" in the backgound.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-...-guerrillas.jpg

A photo of William Morgan in Cuba during the early phase of the Castro revolution.

(William Morgan seated with Beret)

& I do believe that is a 91/38 Carcano which I see just to the right.

As well as a "long rifle" in the backgound.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...mo/history.html

Non-Italian Military Loads

Winchester Repeating Arms, of the US, manufactured 6.5x52 Carcano under a CIA during the early 50's. The intended use is not clear, but varies from being supplemental production for the Italian Military, use during the Greek civil-war, anti-communist efforts in Albania, etc. These rounds found their way into the surplus market in the early 1960's. The rounds supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy were from this production.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/pr...,820245,00.html

Sep. 20, 1954

Former President Carlos Prio Socarras of Cuba placed himself at the disposal of a U.S. District Court in New York last week with a plea of nolo contendere* to charges of conspiring to violate the 1939 U.S. Neutrality Act by attempting to ship arms to Cuba (TIME, Dec. 14). Federal Judge Edmund L. Palmieri fined the ex-President $9,000; in a similar procedure, his onetime Interior Minister, Segundo Curd Messina, was fined $6,000.

Said Prio: "I decided to change my defense from 'not guilty' to nolo contendere because I thought that in my position it was more dignified to do so." Defending Prio, Manhattan Lawyer Samuel I. Rosenman, one-time ghostwriter for President Franklin D. Roosevelt, contended that his client's acts had been political and his violation of U.S. neutrality a technicality.

Judge Palmieri agreed that "the defendants are not criminals in the strict sense of the term," although there was no question that U.S. law had been broken.

*Legal definition: "A plea by the defendant in a criminal prosecution, which, without admitting guilt, subjects him to conviction."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would suppose that were one going into conflict and their weaponery consisted of Manlicher Carcano rifles, then one would most probably also want and require some reliable ammunition for said weapons.

The old Italian version of the ammo certainly was neither that reliable or readily available.

Amazing what one can accomplish when they "right" persons are known, as well as when one has the money with which to pay for something.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKspragueE.htm

They received it from Carlos Prio Socarras in Miami, who brought more than 50 million dollars out of Cuba.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Died. Carlos Prio Socarrás, 74, the last constitutionally elected President of Cuba (1948-52); of a self-inflicted gunshot wound; in Miami Beach. Prio Socarrás, who pridefully described himself as "a cordial President," was overthrown by General Fulgencio Batista and charged with corruption. To oust Batista, Prio Socarrás helped finance Fidel Castro's 1959 takeover, but later broke with him, attacking his "Communist tyranny." A leader of Miami's Cuban exiles, he met with Secretary of State Cyrus Vance in February to voice opposition to U.S. détente with Cuba

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack,

I saw an old post of yours in which you claim the rifle in the "backyard photos" is not the same as the one found in the TSBD, something about sling swivels.

Can you post a closes up of the section of one of the backyard photos and a photo of the TSBD weapon showing the part of the weapon in question.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...d4aaa9a60fe83ca?

I also find this odd in light of you previous claims that the photos were faked. Do you believe the CIA or whoever faked photos with one weapon then planted another?

Len

Edited by Len Colby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack,

I saw an old post of yours in which you claim the rifle in the "backyard photos" is not the same as the one found in the TSBD, something about sling swivels.

Can you post a closes up of the section of one of the backyard photos and a photo of the TSBD weapon showing the part of the weapon in question.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...d4aaa9a60fe83ca?

I also find this odd in light of you previous claims that the photos were faked. Do you believe the CIA or whoever faked photos with one weapon then planted another?

Len

Odd???? Have you read ANY JFK related evidence? Geez, Len.

You are aware, LIFE (amongst other publications) touched up "backyard photos", aren't you?

Oh, As the designated contact person for RZavada/RFielding, how are they making out? Plenty of proof readers?

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...