Chauncey Holt

[Richard J. Smith]

Covert operatives operate in SECRECY. They cannot claim public credit

for their deeds. Therefore their satisfaction in a job well done is to witness

the successful operation. At last count, there seem to be at least a dozen

agency operatives in the plaza to witness the killing. In my opinion, Hunt

was in charge of the operation and was there to run things.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%, although I do not believe Hunt was one the tramps. IMO, this was Hunt.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Richard J. Smith

[Tim Gratz]

I recently saw television coverage of Hunt testifying in the Watergate Hearings in 1972 and at that time, nine years after the assassination, he looked much younger than the tramp.

I don't think a determination can be made but the man walking does bear a resemblance to Hunt, in my opinion, and the raincoat does eem out of place in the crowd. Of course, even if Hunt was in Dealey Plaza that does not necessarily make him a conspirator. It is possible at least that the CIA built itself a very tangled web because it was attempting to conceal something --short of its participation in the assassination.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Richard J. Smith]

I recently saw television coverage of Hunt testifying in the Watergate Hearings in 1972 and at that time, nine years after the assassination, he looked much younger than the tramp.

I don't think a determination can be made but the man walking does bear a resemblance to Hunt, in my opinion, and the raincoat does eem out of place in the crowd.  Of course, even if Hunt was in Dealey Plaza that does not necessarily make him a conspirator.  It is possible at least that the CIA built itself a very tangled web because it was attempting to conceal something --short of its participation in the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

Granted it is difficult to ascertain positive ID from a old photo blowup, but not only does the trenchcoat fit Hunt, so does the hat.

And why else would Hunt be in DP? He's denied being there, and as someone pointed out, tried to use his children as an alibi. Of course, you'd more than likely have to subscribe to the theory that the CIA was the driving force behind the assassination to allow for Hunt's presence.

[Mark Johansson]

You may find this interesting:

Chauncey Marvin Holt

Mark

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Tim,

Granted it is difficult to ascertain positive ID from a old photo blowup, but not only does the trenchcoat fit Hunt, so does the hat.

ITS ALSO A MATCH FOR "JOE FRIDAY" OF DRAGNET FAME

And why else would Hunt be in DP? He's denied being there, and as someone pointed out, tried to use his children as an alibi. Of course, you'd more than likely have to subscribe to the theory that the CIA was the driving force behind the assassination to allow for Hunt's presence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OF COURSE, BEFORE WE CAN ANSWER THIS QUESTION SOMEBODY NEEDS TO PROVIDE SOMETHING MORE THAN A BADLY BLURRED PICTURE AS EVIDENCE OF HIS PRESENCE IN THE PLAZA. Steve.

[Ron Ecker]

There is nothing blurred about the photos of Rip Robertson and Lucien Conein at Main and Houston. So the fact is the CIA was there, well represented, and seemed to be enjoying the show. It's therefore a safe bet, all else considered, that the blurred man in the overcoat who looks like Hunt was Hunt. (And after all, Hunt had nothing better to do in 1963 then watch the assassination, working for Tracy Barnes in the Domestic Operations Division being, so Hunt would have us believe in his autobiography, a nothing job.)

[Mark Johansson]

Mr White,

Did you read the review on Posner from Chauncey Holt?

Is it fair to say that you have a disagreement with your friend James Fetzer on the ID of the old tramp?

You and Holt both agreed on the Gedney, Abrams, Doyle cover story, and also on Harrelson being the tall tramp.

Mark

Edited September 20, 2005 by Mark Johansson

[Guest Stephen Turner]

There is nothing blurred about the photos of Rip Robertson and Lucien Conein at Main and Houston. So the fact is the CIA was there, well represented, and seemed to be enjoying the show. It's therefore a safe bet, all else considered, that the blurred man in the overcoat who looks like Hunt was Hunt. (And after all, Hunt had nothing better to do in 1963 then watch the assassination, working for Tracy Barnes in the Domestic Operations Division being, so Hunt would have us believe in his autobiography, a nothing job.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron, with all due respect what we have are photographs of individuals who strongly resemble Robertson and Conein. In the case of Hunt we dont even have that, the guy in the picture is being put in the frame because the overcoat and hat he is wearing are similar to one's worn by Hunt.Its fair to speculate on that evidence, but not, I submit, to draw conclusions

[Ron Ecker]

Stephen,

To me the odds of two men standing on the same corner who so strongly resemble who they do, but who are not who they so strongly resemble, is prohibitive. That's not even counting the other covert operative resemblances. I have no hard evidence and I am not a statistician so I can't specify the odds. I'll just call them prohibitive IMO. If a statistician can prove me wrong, I'll accept that I'm wrong. In the meantime, I hate coincidences, especially ones that I consider virtually impossible.

Ron

[Jack White]

Mr White,

Did you read the review on Posner from Chauncey Holt?

Is it fair to say that you have a disagreement with your friend James Fetzer on the ID of the old tramp?

You and Holt both agreed on the Gedney, Abrams, Doyle cover story, and also on Harrelson being the tall tramp.

Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my dealings with Holt (a couple of letters and a phone call), I found him

to be a rather charming con man. 1960s photos of Holt are dissimilar to

the tramp photos. Jim spent several days with Holt and believed his story.

My dealings with other "retired" agency people leads me to believe that

nobody ever retires from the company.

In the attached New Orleans photo, Holt identified himself as being the

little guy in dark glasses at right, who plainly does not look like the tramp.

Jack

[Jack White]

Holt, Hunt and LHO are all said to be 5'9". Here is a comparison.

Jack

[Jack White]

Holt had a very short torso and long legs, as seen in 1960s comparison.

Holt was much too young to be the tramp.

Jack

[Mark Johansson]

Mr. White,

Aside from the flaws of comparing lengths and body proportions from different pictures, different clothes and different camera angles and positions, I think your analysis and comparisons make a good case for Holt being the tramp. At least much better than for Hunt. I trust this was not your intention.

Also, you say that Hunt was the older tramp and Harrelson the tall one, just like Holt said, so no disagreement there. Is there any evidence that Hunt and Harrelson have worked together or knew each other? Would you agree that Hunt was a high ranking CIA official rather than a low level operative? If so, what is your explanation that he would take the risk of dressing up as a tramp on the crime scene, with a known gun-for-hire like Charles Harrelson?

Then you say that Holt was much too young to be the older looking tramp. I don't think so. He was 42, and worn out from a 2 day car-trip with no sleep.

Furthermore, you must not think very highly of Mr. Fetzer if you say that he readily fell for the tale of a "charming conman". Is it fair to say that Mr Fetzer has done a lot more study on Holt, and actaully met with the man, while you never have? Also, do you have any evidence that Holt was a "charming conman"? Or was this just your opinion based on a few phonecalls?

Have you read Holt's review on Posner? I understand it has never been published before, so I would think this should interest you. What do you think of it? What is your opinion all those names and details that he mentions, like Twombly, Reynolds, Belcher, Ball, Henzie, etcetera, not to speak about their partnerships and family connections. Are they all fictitious too and part of his "charming conmanship"?

For how long have you been stating that Hunt is the older tramp? Do you have any investments in this theory, other than emotional, like in books maybe?

/Mark

[Ron Ecker]

If I may, I have a couple of thoughts on Holt's review of Posner. Thanks for pointing this review out, it's good to have something straight from the horse's mouth (in addition to the interview of Holt on Wim's site).

I was struck by Holt's knowledge of the JFK case, at least in the areas he chose to discuss. He seems to know all the details, for example, about CE399, as well as all the details about the testimony and statements of TSBD workers. Whatever else he was, Holt was clearly a JFK assassination researcher. It is therefore odd that he would say that Dallas was just "one short chapter in a long and very far-ranging career." Holt dismisses "the affair in Dallas" as "merely a way-station as far as I am concerned." So why would someone who saw the JFK assassination as just another day at work delve so deeply into the facts of the case? One possibility is so that he could concoct a good story about his own participation.

With respect to Holt's explanation of his physical appearance as the tramp, I will borrow a phrase that Holt uses more than once in his piece: "Does this make any sense?" He says that he had stuffed cotton in his nostrils for nose bleed, and that this "distorted my features to a certain extent." How did it distort his features? Stuff some cotton in your nose, then look in a mirror and see if your features are distorted. He also says that he "further distorted" his face deliberately by "placing tissue paper under my upper lip." Are we supposed to believe that he somehow knew he was going to be photographed, so he better disguise his appearance with a stuffed lip? Or did he develop this fear of being photographed or recognized when he was arrested, and at that point put the tissue paper under his lip? Where exactly did he get this tissue paper from? Was it from the box of tissues that tramps always carry around with them on trains and in hobo jungles? And could some tissue paper under his lip transform his face into the older one that we see in the photos?

I have an hypothesis about this issue of the tissue. I think Holt may have derived this part of his story, a part that really doesn't make any sense, from the 1970s film The Godfather, specifically from Marlon Brando, who is on record as having effected Corleone's jowls by stuffing his cheeks with tissue paper.

Edited September 22, 2005 by Ron Ecker

[Jack White]

Mr. White,

Aside from the flaws of comparing lengths and body proportions from different pictures, different clothes and different camera angles and positions, I think your analysis and comparisons make a good case for Holt being the tramp. At least much better than for Hunt. I trust this was not your intention.

/Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mr. Johansson...It is pointless to have a discussion with someone

who thinks these photos represent the same man in 1963.

Jack