Why did Marina write these words...

[David Andrews]

Etymologically, "heroin" is derived from the root of "heroism" (or "heroics," eroica). The intent had been to create an honorific brand name for what was once hoped to be a marketable battlefield painkiller - by the German firm Beyer, I think?

Edited January 2, 2010 by David Andrews

[Greg Parker]

So what's the working hypothesis Greg that LHO's wife and half brother were part of some sort of plot to Manchurian Artichoke him into not killing JFK?

Hello Len, good to see you're still in there pitching. I don't have a working hypothesis above and beyond what I've already said.

What do you make of the other pages of the notebook that mention other pharmaceuticals?

I don't recall seeing any mention of any other pharmaceuticals. Perhaps you can help me out and point me to that page.

Do have any evidence that dicain and morphine could be use to control someones mind other than a list "145 drugs [supposedly] tested by the CIA in various projects" A list that include alcohol, quinine, pot, caffeine and Manganese chloride (not a drug but a mineral used as contrast in MRI's)?

No. I have no evidence for that. But then, I made no such claim about them. I merely pointed out that all three were used in CIA programs. Maybe you can check the records on what particular use they made of them. Oh, that's right. You can't. They destroyed the records.

As for the radio transmitter hidden in Marina's tooth did you consider the possibility it was to remote control her? Help with the minutae was it implanted before or after she separated from LHO?

I made it clear, did I not, that this was speculation less well founded than that concerning the notebook contents. But here are some additional facts. The dentist who oversaw her dental work was part of a CIA sponsored "charity" called project Hope. The dentist who performed the work went on to specialize in tooth implants. Andrija Puharich patented a radio tooth implant in 1961 which toward the end of his life he claimed was promptly classified by "an agency of our government".

So...in sum, the technology was apparently available to "an agency" of the government, CIA connected White Russians organized the dental work, the dentist who oversaw that work had CIA connections, the dentist who did it went on to specialize in implants, and the work was done in time for the family reunion.

But you can trump all that by producing a photo of Marina with bad teeth.

[Greg Parker]

Etymologically, "heroin" is derived from the root of "heroism" (or "heroics," eroica). The intent had been to create an honorific brand name for what was once hoped to be a marketable battlefield painkiller - by the German firm Beyer, I think?

Thanks David. That clears that up once and for all.

[Peter McGuire]

As far as Marina Oswald goes, she believes in her husbands innocence, yet she officially acknowledges the backyard photos.

The conclusion can only be that she is still being intimidated by someone.

[Len Colby]

So what's the working hypothesis Greg that LHO's wife and half brother were part of some sort of plot to Manchurian Artichoke him into not killing JFK?

Hello Len, good to see you're still in there pitching. I don't have a working hypothesis above and beyond what I've already said.

Well that's obviously what you were driving at, why not own up to it? Suggesting something (without saying outright) then making denials when asked about it is a worn tactic.

What do you make of the other pages of the notebook that mention other pharmaceuticals?

I don't recall seeing any mention of any other pharmaceuticals. Perhaps you can help me out and point me to that page.

Sorry,my bad I was thinking of the blood work related terms, we also have the metric measure stuff and the references to 'Christmas' etc summed together they fit the small talk scenario better than some evil conspiracy.

Do have any evidence that dicain and morphine could be use to control someones mind other than a list "145 drugs [supposedly] tested by the CIA in various projects" A list that include alcohol, quinine, pot, caffeine and Manganese chloride (not a drug but a mineral used as contrast in MRI's)?

"No. I have no evidence for that. But then, I made no such claim about them."

Once again it was the obvious suggestion.

"I merely pointed out that all three were used in CIA programs. Maybe you can check the records on what particular use they made of them. Oh, that's right. You can't. They destroyed the records."

Supposedly used, your source was an anonymous hacker website which cited no sources. Since you like to speculate so much what do you imagine they used quinine for? Gin and tonics? what about the Manganese chloride?

As for the radio transmitter hidden in Marina's tooth did you consider the possibility it was to remote control her? Help with the minutae was it implanted before or after she separated from LHO?

I made it clear, did I not, that this was speculation less well founded than that concerning the notebook contents.

Oh yes, "less well founded" than your supposed list of "DRUGS TESTED BY THE CIA UNDER PROJECTS BLUEBIRD, ARTICHOKE, MKULTRA, AND MKDELTA...compiled by: The Clone" on the 'Hack Canada' website, LOL.

"But here are some additional facts. The dentist who oversaw her dental work was part of a CIA sponsored "charity" called project Hope. The dentist who performed the work went on to specialize in tooth implants. "

I imagine you can provide citations for these claims? Hopefully you can do better than "Hack Canada"

"Andrija Puharich patented a radio tooth implant in 1961 which toward the end of his life he claimed was promptly classified by "an agency of our government". "

You do know that one doesn't have to demonstrate that something actually works to get a patent don't you? Puharich seems to have been a complete crackpot.In any case the patent was a radio receiver which supposedly sent audio directly to the brain:

"The invention comprises an element applied to a viable tooth, for receiving electromagnetic signals at radio frequency, and a transducer element coupled with a receiving element and with live nerve endings of the tooth for converting the electromagnetic signals to electric signals at audio frequency, and imparting the electrical signals to the nerve endings of the tooth for transmission to the brain,"

http://www.urigeller.com/nscientist.htm

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/2995633

So...in sum, the technology was apparently available to "an agency" of the government, CIA connected White Russians organized the dental work, the dentist who oversaw that work had CIA connections, the dentist who did it went on to specialize in implants, and the work was done in time for the family reunion.

But you can trump all that by producing a photo of Marina with bad teeth.

Perhaps you can produce a photo of Marina with good teeth. She never seemed to open her lips till she remarried which suggests her teeth weren't good.

[Len Colby]

As far as Marina Oswald goes, she believes in her husbands innocence, yet she officially acknowledges the backyard photos.

The conclusion can only be that she is still being intimidated by someone.

Either that or she really did take the photos.

[Peter McGuire]

I think I am going to have to take a little time and focus on Marina Oswald.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[Greg Parker]

Well that's obviously what you were driving at, why not own up to it? Suggesting something (without saying outright) then making denials when asked about it is a worn tactic.

How is that obvious, Len? You have thought up a wacky scenario and tried to put it in my mouth. That is the only well worn tactic being used here. Maybe you missed my reply to Peter Lemkin where I said, "Frankly, I don't know what to make of it. And I'm well aware there could be a non-sinister explanation."

Sorry,my bad I was thinking of the blood work related terms, we also have the metric measure stuff and the references to 'Christmas' etc summed together they fit the small talk scenario better than some evil conspiracy.

I don't recall any Christmas comments either, but I'll take your word for it. Most debriefs, as with interrogations, start with "small talk". Helps to break the ice. I remain suspicious however, of Pic's equivocation on knowing that what Marina wrote were the names of drugs. He had to know that is what the words were and his evasiveness on it points to his hiding something.

Once again it was the obvious suggestion [that the drugs named could be used to control someone's mind].

The only suggestion made was that the drugs listed were used in various CIA programs. Anything above and beyond that is you once again trying to put words in my mouth. You need to ask the CIA what purpose the drugs were put to and what outcomes they hoped to achieve. Good luck with that!

Supposedly used, your source was an anonymous hacker website which cited no sources. Since you like to speculate so much what do you imagine they used quinine for? Gin and tonics? what about the Manganese chloride?

What do you have against The Clone????

Maybe he just plucked the names of drugs out his hat for the list? Maybe he hacked my computer and saw what I was working on and decided to play a little trick on me?

There is nothing "supposedly" about it. Are you claiming that the CIA did not use drugs in certain types of programs?

A New York magazine called Cabinet published the same list in issue 8, 2002. Knock yourself out finding fault with this publication...

I imagine you can provide citations [on the Baylor dentists etc] for these claims? Hopefully you can do better than "Hack Canada"

Cites are in this post: Extracts from Baylor Dental Clinic

You do know that one doesn't have to demonstrate that something actually works to get a patent don't you? Puharich seems to have been a complete crackpot.In any case the patent was a radio receiver which supposedly sent audio directly to the brain:

With the ability you just demonstrated to channel John McAdams, you'd be just the sort of person who would interest Puharich!

Popular Mechanics seemed sold on it....

April, 1962 edition.

Here is what Puharich said at a conference in 1987: “We were able to develop a hearing device that fit under the cap of a tooth and we could hear very clearly from a small little relay and receiver and transmitter and unfortunately it was promptly classified by an agency of our government. But we did solve the problem in terms of hardware.”

This seems like a variation of the hearing aid device you cite and discussed in Popular Mechanics. I was apparently wrong to say previously that this was the device he patented. He could not have done that if it was "promptly classified".

Perhaps you can produce a photo of Marina with good teeth. She never seemed to open her lips till she remarried which suggests her teeth weren't good.

She NEVER opened her lips???? Then how the hell did she talk to anyone? How did DeM, his wife and his Colonel friend notice her teeth? That is a plainly ridiculous suggestion. If DeM and friends noticed, why did no one else? DeM's wife claimed the floor was cleaner and less germ riddled than her mouth and teeth. She had a reputation in Russia for chasing the boys which indicates she would have taken a certain amount of pride in her appearance. The Soviets offered free dental, and she worked at a hospital which did dental work - yet the White Russians would have us believe they alone saw how her disgusting her teeth were??? They alone, cared enough to suggest she actually do something about it???

Incidentally, the space need for Puharich's device was about equal to the number of teeth she had pulled. He was trying to get it down to one tooth space in '64.

BTW, she remarried, when? In '64 or '65? That's a long time to keep your mouth shut. Literally. Isn't it just as likely that photos of her showing her pearly whites taken prior to '63 were destroyed?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Greg Parker

[David Andrews]

Etymologically, "heroin" is derived from the root of "heroism" (or "heroics," eroica). The intent had been to create an honorific brand name for what was once hoped to be a marketable battlefield painkiller - by the German firm Beyer, I think?

Thanks David. That clears that up once and for all.

Wiki version:

"From 1898 through to 1910 diacetylmorphine was marketed under the name heroin as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough suppressant. Bayer marketed heroin as a cure for morphine addiction before it was discovered that it rapidly metabolizes into morphine. As such, heroin is essentially a quicker acting form of morphine. The company was embarrassed by the new finding, which became a historic blunder for Bayer.

"In the U.S.A. the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act was passed in 1914 to control the sale and distribution of "heroin" and other opioids, which allowed the drug to be prescribed and sold for medical purposes. In 1924 the United States Congress banned its sale, importation or manufacture. It is now a Schedule I substance, which makes it illegal for non-medical use in signatory nations of the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs treaty, including the United States.

"Later, as with Aspirin, Bayer lost some of its trademark rights to 'heroin' under the 1919 Treaty of Versailles following the German defeat in World War I."

As I recall from elsewhere, the "hero" was injected into the brand name "heroin" to acknowledge that soldiers had acquired morphine addiction in military hospitals.

Edited January 3, 2010 by David Andrews

[Len Colby]

Greg wrote:

"How is that obvious, Len? You have thought up a wacky scenario and tried to put it in my mouth. That is the only well worn tactic being used here. Maybe you missed my reply to Peter Lemkin where I said,

"Frankly, I don't know what to make of it. And I'm well aware there could be a non-sinister explanation."

"

At least quote yourself in context. Your full quote:

“Frankly, I don't know what to make of it. And I'm well aware there could be a non-sinister explanation. That said, Pic's semi-denial that he thought the words were names of drugs but that he "wouldn't know", does come across like he had something to hide. He knew what the words were. He had to, with his medical training.”

You also wrote:

I can't think of any reason he'd record the mileage to a family reunion - unless it was claimable. If so, it would indicate this was indeed, something more than just a family reunion.

I don't buy that he hedged on the contents of the notebook out of embarrassment. I repeat that he could have talked on any subject with Marina using Lee to interpret if making polite chit chat was the goal. When you note what the words are, that there are pages missing from the notebook, their backgrounds, and the distinct possibility that Pic was claiming the prip as a tax deduction... I at least, have to wonder if this was perhaps some type of swap of information, or a debrief session of some sort.

And:

Pic, at the time of this meeting, was working at Wilford Hall Medical Center, a USAF Base hospital in San Anonio. His job was as NCOIC (Non Commisioned Officer in Charge) Special Procedures Branch of the Pathology Department. In the 1990s, the DoD was forced to admit its Cold War human radiation experiments. Wiford Hall was one hospital named as conducting those experiments during the '60s. In the '50s, he had been a commie hunter for the Port Security Unit. Seems an unlikely candidate to turn out to be a closet hippie.

Both dicain and morphine are listed among 145 drugs tested by the CIA in various projects.

The gist is that Pic who was the NCO in charge of a super secret military project went to “debrief” or ‘swap information’ with Marina and discussed “drugs tested by the CIA in various projects” behind Oswald’s back. So without obfuscation tell us what you were driving at.

Sorry,my bad I was thinking of the blood work related terms, we also have the metric measure stuff and the references to 'Christmas' etc summed together they fit the small talk scenario better than some evil conspiracy.

I don't recall any Christmas comments either, but I'll take your word for it. Most debriefs, as with interrogations, start with "small talk". Helps to break the ice. I remain suspicious however, of Pic's equivocation on knowing that what Marina wrote were the names of drugs. He had to know that is what the words were and his evasiveness on it points to his hiding something.

So you are an expert on debriefs and interrogations now? Look at your OPthe following is on one of the pages along with metric measures:

Kidd

Hearts

Do

Many-Lovely-Good

Deeds

Christmas

Morning

Why would an NCO at a pathology department have to know what dicain and heroica were? Though he should have been able to figure out ‘Morphinum’ was he said “She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me”

Supposedly used, your source was an anonymous hacker website which cited no sources. Since you like to speculate so much what do you imagine they used quinine for? Gin and tonics? what about the Manganese chloride?

What do you have against The Clone????

Maybe he just plucked the names of drugs out his hat for the list? Maybe he hacked my computer and saw what I was working on and decided to play a little trick on me?

There is nothing "supposedly" about it. Are you claiming that the CIA did not use drugs in certain types of programs?

A New York magazine called Cabinet published the same list in issue 8, 2002. Knock yourself out finding fault with this publication...

Obviously the CIA “used drugs in certain types of programs” what you have yet to doe is cite a reliable source that says it was any of the drugs Marina wrote down in Pic note book.

As for Cabinet:

It describes itself as “an award-winning quarterly magazine of art and culture that confounds expectations of what is typically meant by the words "art," "culture," and sometimes even "magazine." Like the 17th-century cabinet of curiosities to which its name alludes, Cabinet is as interested in the margins of culture as its center.” I doubt the editors fact check the authors.

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/information/index.php

A search did not turn up the list

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/search.php

The “Clone’s” list was published in 2001; a reasonable assumption if your claim is true is that the magazine got its info from him (or her). Citing a 2nd source which cites your 1st is an old trick to make it appear you have independent confirmation

Please provide a link to the supposed article for verification. You can purchase a PDF of the issue for $5

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/shop/index....8b62afb31adc3e2

I imagine you can provide citations [on the Baylor dentists etc] for these claims? Hopefully you can do better than "Hack Canada"

Cites are in this post: Extracts from Baylor Dental Clinic

What evidence did Evica cite that Project Hope was run by the CIA? Can quote what he said? Even if it were the whole point of having a front is that not all involved know who is running the project and even those who know won’t being doing the agency’s bidding 24/7. You provided no evidence Brundage was involved in JM/Wave and your cited source did NOT say when he was president of PH. He was “chairman, Unitarian Development Fund Campaign (1959-62)” PH was mentioned in the next sentence. Due to your propensity to misquote your sources I only believe your citations when I can see the original.

You do know that one doesn't have to demonstrate that something actually works to get a patent don't you? Puharich seems to have been a complete crackpot.In any case the patent was a radio receiver which supposedly sent audio directly to the brain:

With the ability you just demonstrated to channel John McAdams, you'd be just the sort of person who would interest Puharich!

Popular Mechanics seemed sold on it....

April, 1962 edition.

Here is what Puharich said at a conference in 1987: “We were able to develop a hearing device that fit under the cap of a tooth and we could hear very clearly from a small little relay and receiver and transmitter and unfortunately it was promptly classified by an agency of our government. But we did solve the problem in terms of hardware.”

This seems like a variation of the hearing aid device you cite and discussed in Popular Mechanics. I was apparently wrong to say previously that this was the device he patented. He could not have done that if it was "promptly classified".

??? The “April, 1962 edition” quoted “what Puharich said at a conference in 1987”?? and quoting him indicates they “seemed sold on it”?? Actually they seem to atribute the claims to Puharich and the other inventor:

The device functions even with the mouth closed, according to the inventors, a New York dentist and a California doctor. Dr. Joseph L. Lawrence and Dr. Henry K. Puharich say patients report the reception of a clear sound with almost imperceptible background noise

http://www.google.com/books?id=F-EDAAAAMBA...rich&f=true

Around this time he was an advocate of taking magic mushrooms to increase ones ESP. He promoted hucksters like Uri Geller, Peter Hurkos and Zé Arigó

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=taMfA...;pg=742,1359432

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrija_Puharich

His supposed device was hearing aid not a listening device supposedly the detalnerve would help the patient hear. And sorry but a patent is no indication a device actually works.Froman earlier post:

According to a section of the page on the United States Patent and Trademark Office website giving general information about patents entitled, “Models, Exhibits, And Specimens”:

“Models or exhibits are not required in most patent applications since the description of the invention in the specification and the drawings must be sufficiently full, clear, and complete and capable of being understood to disclose the invention without the aid of a model.

A working model, or other physical exhibit, may be required by the Office if deemed necessary. This is not done very often. A working model may be requested in the case of applications for patent for alleged perpetual motion devices.

When the invention relates to a composition of matter, the applicant may be required to furnish specimens of the composition, or of its ingredients or intermediates, for inspection or experiment. If the invention is a microbiological invention, a deposit of the micro-organism involved is required.”

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/g...ndex.html#model

Perhaps you can produce a photo of Marina with good teeth. She never seemed to open her lips till she remarried which suggests her teeth weren't good.

She NEVER opened her lips???? Then how the hell did she talk to anyone? How did DeM, his wife and his Colonel friend notice her teeth? That is a plainly ridiculous suggestion. If DeM and friends noticed, why did no one else? DeM's wife claimed the floor was cleaner and less germ riddled than her mouth and teeth. She had a reputation in Russia for chasing the boys which indicates she would have taken a certain amount of pride in her appearance. The Soviets offered free dental, and she worked at a hospital which did dental work - yet the White Russians would have us believe they alone saw how her disgusting her teeth were??? They alone, cared enough to suggest she actually do something about it???

Incidentally, the space need for Puharich's device was about equal to the number of teeth she had pulled. He was trying to get it down to one tooth space in '64.

BTW, she remarried, when? In '64 or '65? That's a long time to keep your mouth shut. Literally.

Since we were talking about photos obviously I meant she “never seemed to open her lips” when having her picture taken

“Isn't it just as likely that photos of her showing her pearly whites taken prior to '63 were destroyed?”

No

So your scenario is that Marina consented to having healthy teeth pulled/caped so a listening device could be hidden in them allowing the CIA to monitor her husband as part of some nefarious plot which involved doping him without his consent but in cahoots with his half brother. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Was all of the following and the hypothesized destruction of pre-1963/4 photos part of a disinfo campaign to cover up an obscure fact?

Mrs. Oswald Stays Composed

Sterling F Green (AP),Washington February 5,1964 (appeared some papers 2/6-7)

“[Marina] poses for photographers in the lobby and back comet the faint, taut smile that masks what is said to be a broken front tooth.”

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7_ocA...;pg=7322,475801

Nation: The Others

Time, Friday, Nov. 27, 1964

“After Oswald was killed, sympathetic people sent Marina some $60,000. She moved into a $15,000, three-bedroom, air-conditioned brick house in a Dallas suburb. She had her teeth fixed, now affects fashionable coiffures and Neiman-Marcus clothes.”

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...l#ixzz0bYN9i4ET

A quiet woman's portrait .

Beaver Country Times - Dec 29, 1977

“Marina had rotting teeth, hand-me-down clothes.”

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3VgvA...pg=1313,6051774

Oswald Widow's Book Due In October

The Victoria Advocate - July 14, 1977 (from the LA Times/Washington Post News Service)

Marina refused to smile for photographers in early photos because of a cracked tooth. She became irate after one photographer caught Marina In a full smile - broken teeth and all. She told one of her business advisors that she feared the American public wouldn’t send her money if they saw her teeth and thought she was ugly. After her husband’s death she had extensive dental work done…

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&...pg=6970,2638117

From the Hosty report:

Dr . HARVEY WALDO ALLEN, DDS, graduate student of

oral surgery, Baylor University College of Dentistry, 800

Hall Street, advised he recalled treating MARINA OSWALD, who

first came to his attention on October 8, 1962, when she

appeared with a lady whom he could not identify except that

she acted as an interpreter for Mrs . OSWALD . Examination

disclosed that Mrs . OSWALD's teeth were in very poor condition .

He recalled he examined her together with Dr . A . F . STAPLES,

Head of the Department of Oral Surgery, and they recommended

on the first visit that she have her teeth cleaned and a full

mouth x-ray survey .

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...H22_CE_1403.pdf [pg7]

From A.J.Webberman:

“Mrs. Hunter proported to identify Marina Oswald by her eyes, and did not observe the fact that Marina Oswald had a front tooth missing at the time she supposedly saw her [early November 1963].”

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec18.htm

From “I Am A Patsy! I Am A Patsy!” by George De Mohrenschildt

[in early summer 1962] To Orlov she was beautiful, notwithstanding bad teeth and mousy blond hair

[...]

Marina would pick up a pacifier from the floor, then try it herself before putting it in June's mouth. Unfortunately, she had infected teeth at the time, so the baby was exposed also.

My wife had high ideas about hygiene, so she was outspokenly critical.

"Your infected teeth have to be removed as soon as possible,"

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr17.html

Edited January 3, 2010 by Len Colby

[Greg Parker]

The gist is that Pic who was the NCO in charge of a super secret military project went to “debrief” or ‘swap information’ with Marina and discussed “drugs tested by the CIA in various projects”

Congratulations Len! Yes, that is the gist.

behind Oswald’s back.

Whoopsie. Nope. Never said or hinted at that. It may be true, but I have no opinion on it.

So without obfuscation tell us what you were driving at.

You already encapsulated "what I'm driving at". Your insistence that I should speculate beyond that is your problem, not mine.

Why would an NCO at a pathology department have to know what dicain and heroica were? Though he should have been able to figure out ‘Morphinum’ was he said “She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me”

He was trained as a pharmacist according to someone who had known him closely for 11 years. But for the sake of argument, if he wan't sure what the words were, don't you think he would have asked for clarification from Marina? Which brings up the question of why she wrote them in the first place.

As for Cabinet:

It describes itself as “an award-winning quarterly magazine of art and culture that confounds expectations of what is typically meant by the words "art," "culture," and sometimes even "magazine." Like the 17th-century cabinet of curiosities to which its name alludes, Cabinet is as interested in the margins of culture as its center.” I doubt the editors fact check the authors.

What you doubt is irrelevant. The magazine has a sterling reputation. Issues have a themed section. The one under discussion here had the theme title Pharmacopia

A search did not turn up the list

Try google books.

??? The “April, 1962 edition” quoted “what Puharich said at a conference in 1987”?? and quoting him indicates they “seemed sold on it”?? Actually they seem to atribute the claims to Puharich and the other inventor:

You're easily confused.

The answer to your question is, "no".

The two items were separate. You can view the Popular Mechanics article here. Tooth Radio ArticleThey don't show any doubt that it worked.

Are you sticking to your assumption that Puharich was a crackpot and therefore the invention probably didn't work?

Can you point me to patent law which states that an invention does not need to be in working order? What you cited does not say that, even though you seem to think it does.

What evidence did Evica cite that Project Hope was run by the CIA? Can quote what he said?

Get the book. Haven't got the time or inclination to type out pages for someone whose reaction to them would be a foregone conclusion.

Even if it were the whole point of having a front is that not all involved know who is running the project and even those who know won’t being doing the agency’s bidding 24/7.

You provided no evidence Brundage was involved in JM/Wave

I've noted it in the past: May 19, 1975 issue of Newsweek.

and your cited source did NOT say when he was president of PH. He was “chairman, Unitarian Development Fund Campaign (1959-62)” PH was mentioned in the next sentence. Due to your propensity to misquote your sources I only believe your citations when I can see the original.

The dates I gave are correct. If you think I got it wrong, prove it. Your knee-jerk reaction is not believe any sources given to you anyway.

So your scenario is that Marina consented to having healthy teeth pulled/caped so a listening device could be hidden in them allowing the CIA to monitor her husband as part of some nefarious plot which involved doping him without his consent but in cahoots with his half brother. Does that sound reasonable to you?

It sounds like typical Len making stuff up.

As for your sources re Marina having a cracked front tooth in 1964 - how the hell is that relevant to the state of her teeth in October 1962 - the time frame under scrutiny?

Re you quotes from FBI interviews with the dentist, and quotes from DeM etc.... if you had read my post on the subject, you would have noticed I supplied all of that and more... it comes back to CIA connected White Russians being the only people to notice her bad teeth in 1962 and arranging dental work under the guidance of a CIA connected dentist.

I must admit, I'm perplexed that you have used the following in support of your argument:

“Mrs. Hunter proported to identify Marina Oswald by her eyes, and did not observe the fact that Marina Oswald had a front tooth missing at the time she supposedly saw her [early November 1963].”

Someone NOT noticing she had a tooth missing helps you... how? And since this was after her dental work, how do you know the missing tooth (assuming it actually was missing) wasn't one that had been pulled?

But that's all by the by. A missing front tooth was not the problem described by DeM and co...

[John Bevilaqua]

My thought is that either Marina and/or Ilya Mamantov and/or Igor Voshinin her ...ahhhh so-called "verbatim translators" were in on the Oswald legend building process and that hers was a marriage of convenience as cruel as that sounds. And there is no one around who would ever be able to confirm that what Marina said was actually translated "verbatim" by her "translators". When I asked her about the conflict and the inconsistency between what was translated to the WC about how the bathroom door opened "IN" to the bathroom but she was quoted as "PUSHING" on the door with all her might in order to keep Oswald "IN" the bathroom so he could not go out and take a pot shot at Walker or whatever, she just hemmed, hawed and harrumphed... then she looked very guilty and trapped, then immediately excused herself and went back into the live conference to avoid answering the question, even though the conference in Cambridge was not yet in session.

My conclusion is that even that guy who "wrote" her bio then trashed it into oblivion, Isaac Don Levine, yet another White Russian Fascist, was just doing a debriefing on her to see what she knew or what she figured out after she was under contract so no one else could do her bio for life.

How convenient! Marina just went along to go along, and probably was in on the entire game somehow. Her uncle was with the NKVD and she must have known what Oswald was up to all along. No hard proof, just a very logical inference, IMHO. She framed Oswald in the Walker shooting against all evidence, then backtracked and now says her husband was innocent of all crimes. Sniff! Sniff! Not

too believable.

[Len Colby]

Greg,

I'm too busy right now to fully reply I hope to be able to do so by tomorrow. In the meantime I have a few questions. I will probably await your answers before replying further

1) Can you provide a direct quote (and citation) from the "husband of [Pic's] sister-in-law" stating he was trained as a pharmacist? Odd if it were true since he was an NCO and being a pharmacist in the US (currently at least) requires at least 6 years of college/post graduate education which would make him an officer.

2) What is title and author of the article in Cabinet #8 that included the drug list?

3) Who brought Pic's notebook to the WC's attention?

4) What years did the radiation experiments at Pic's AFB take place,can you describe them?

5) What is the source for your claim that the "May 19, 1975 issue of Newsweek" tied Brundage to JM/Wave? I don't imagine you own a copy and it doesn't appear to be available online.

6) Can you give a complete rundown of where Pic was stationed through 1962,when did he switch from the Navy to the Air Force?

Len

EDIT: Q 6) added

Edited January 5, 2010 by Len Colby

[Dean Hagerman]

Since you like to speculate so much what do you imagine they used quinine for? Gin and tonics?

That is the first time Len has made me laugh

Although we now have a lead into what was in GinAndTonicMans glass

Edited January 5, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[Greg Parker]

Greg,

I'm too busy right now to fully reply I hope to be able to do so by tomorrow. In the meantime I have a few questions. I will probably await your answers before replying further

1) Can you provide a direct quote (and citation) from the "husband of [Pic's] sister-in-law" stating he was trained as a pharmacist? Odd if it were true since he was an NCO and being a pharmacist in the US (currently at least) requires at least 6 years of college/post graduate education which would make him an officer.

Commission Document 128 - FBI Welke Report of 06 Dec 1963 re: Oswald, p3

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=338518

Looking at it again, you might argue that it is Parish who was the pharmacist, though that is not how it reads. Taking your point into account, I tend to think Parish meant that Pic had some basic training in pharmacy as part of his overall training in lab work.

2) What is title and author of the article in Cabinet #8 that included the drug list?

Google only has snippet view, so that info not showing. It is in Cabinet issues 6-9 p127 (possibly 3 issues published in book form)

3) Who brought Pic's notebook to the WC's attention?

Well, that's a good question. Sometimes these things came to the attention of authorities in ways you wouldn't expect. An example: Oswald allegedly pulled a knife and threatened John Pic's wife when he was living with them in NY. John Pic was away at the time. According to various pieces of testimony, because of this incident, John Pic kicked Lee and Marguerite out when he returned home. I often wondered how the alleged knife pulling came to the attention of authorities. Now I know. It was George Parish. He contacted the FBI and gave them that information -- but with one major difference to the story as it later became accepted. According to Parish, Pic's wife phoned her sister about the knife incident, and it was the sister who came and kicked Lee and Marguerite out. But to get back to your question; I don't know the answer either, but would like to.

4) What years did the radiation experiments at Pic's AFB take place,can you describe them?

The earliest human radiation experiments I can find at the moment relating to Wilford Hall started in 1965. My memory is that they did experiments on thyroid and/or cancer patients commencing in 1962 either alone or jointly with other facilities. I did have a cite for it, as this was presented at a Cyril Wecht symposium in 2003 and a cite was required. I lost that paper in a computer crash the following year so am posting this now rather than delay any longer while trying to locate it again on the web.

5) What is the source for your claim that the "May 19, 1975 issue of Newsweek" tied Brundage to JM/Wave? I don't imagine you own a copy and it doesn't appear to be available online.

It is in google books - snippet view.

6) Can you give a complete rundown of where Pic was stationed through 1962,when did he switch from the Navy to the Air Force?

Switched from Coast Guard to Air Force on Feb 1, 1956. Coast Guard from memory - was attached to Treasury at that time - not Navy. How he came to be trained in Navy hospitals without being in the Navy, I don't know (unless of course, I'm mistaken about CG not part of Navy!).

In August 1962 he was transferred to Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland AFB as NCO in Charge of the Special Procedures Branch, Department of Pathology.

Len

EDIT: Q 6) added