Jump to content

Some Ballistics questions


John Dolva
 Share

Recommended Posts

In this image of the MC I'm trying to find the center line of the barrel, assuming that the bore is concentric.

I've drawn a line from the front tip to the back where the outline of the barrel seems to me to indicate the centerline.

When looking at the rear of the bolt(?) can it be said that the centerline as I suggest is correct? Or above/below?

(some definitions for neophytes like myself:

Cold clean bore

The first shot from a rifle that has been cleaned, and not fired recently may go to a different point of impact, for the same point of aim than a rifle that has been fired recently. This first shot is referred to as a shot from a cold, clean, bore.

Fouling Shot

A shot fired in a clean rifle barrel to put the barrel into the normal slightly dirty state from which it is fired. Often, a rifle will shoot to a different point of aim with this shot as compared to the subsequent shots.

Minute Of Angle

Also called MOA. A unit of angle that is equal to one1/60 of one degree. Used to adjust sight angles to aim a firearm. At 100 yards one MOA is equal to very nearly 1 inch. Typical telescopic sights used for competition have adjustments (clicks) in one quarter MOA increments. In most situations a rifle must be able to shoot one minute of angle or less sized groups to be considered highly accurate.(Slang usage: "minute of pop can", "minute of deer", "minute of barn", or some other type of target. This implies a level of accuracy necessary to hit that particular target under "normal" conditions. It can be an approving comment as in "It's good enough for minute of deer." Or derogatory, as in "That gun can't shoot minute of barn.")

Trajectory

The path which a bullet takes from the muzzle of the barrel to it's initial point of rest. A bullet in flight does not fly straight to its target. In fact, the bullet begins dropping under the influence of gravity as soon as it leaves the barrel. To compensate for this, the firearm's sights are aligned to point the barrel upward and perhaps to one side or the other to compensate for the wind. This causes the bullet to arc upward relative to the line of sight within the sighting system, then downward under the influence of gravity to its point of impact. The sights are adjusted in elevation and windage to change it's angle with the barrel to make the bullet point of impact coincide with the point of aim.

Windage

The setting on the sights used to accommodate the wind or adjust for horizontal errors in the alignment of the sights with the bore of the firearm.

Fouling Shot is interesting.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 46
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I further pointed out that the FBI re-enactment photos show that the man holding the rifle is practically a midget, which you can verify with comparative measurement of the M/Carcano versus his upper torso.

BTW: A Silencer/Suppresor will leak smoke even after the first shot, due to an accumulation of gases within the tube, which acts to both give more accuracy & range [more burning of powder] and reduces the noise level.

Rice Krispies !!

Gerry

___________________________________

I believe the man in the photo is Robert Frazier, the FBI ballistics man who testified before the WC.

Gerry, based on the extra burning of powder that comes with a silencer, is there a noticeable difference in smell? Would the firing of a suppressed rifle create a more noticeable odor than the firing of a non-suppressed rifle?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that the bore in a rifle barrel is concentric with the barrel. I'm not sure, but I believe that this is so that there are no "hot spots"where the metal is thinner and more prone to damage or fatigue after firing multiple rounds. I have seen barrels that taper from the breech to the muzzle, but they usually exhibit a uniform thickness at a particular circumference...exceptions being for mounting lugs and such.

To further clarify, compensation for the upward part of the trajectory is accomplished by raising the rear sight, or the rear portion of the scope, slightly. [Most modern scopes have adjustments for windage and elevation on the scopes themselves, but that's a separate issue.] But the barrel itself is mounted "straight", and it's the sight that is adjusted to compensate.

Beyond this point, you're pushing the limits of my firearms knowledge.

Mark;

The "thicker" barrel at the chamber end serves multiple purposes.

1. Of course, this allows for the machining down of the breech end of the barrel for threads which thus allow the barrel to be screwed into the receiver/frame of the weapon, and still maintain barrel integrity.

2. The "chamber pressure" is greatest at the breech end where initial ignition of the propellant must create the chamber pressure necessary to begin to drive the bullet/projectile forward into the rifling of the weapon.

Once the projectile begins movement, chamber and barrel pressure begin to decrease with the advancing movement of the projectile.

Barrel thickness/outside diamater must also contain the functional co-efficient for adequate cooling of the metal between rounds fired at the maximum sustained rate of fire for the weapon.

All of which is based upon the grade/type, strength, expansion, contraction, and heat dissipation capability of the specific steel utilized in manufacture.

Tom

----------------------------

Tom:

If I might add: When we finished the shooting of "JFK", Hargraves and I went over to Frederick, MD to once again visit with Harold Weisberg. He had a somewhat different version of the M/Carcano in his "Office", and this one didn't have a scope attached. After getting past his disagreements with Oliver Stone, I went into the fact that our movie armorer had to cut the very strong bolt spring in half, in order that Gary Oldman, Kostner, and Sanders might work the action rapidly.

This seemed to astound him, and I looked at his wife -- seeking a response if we were over-taxing his waning energies -- but she nodded OK. I further explained to Harold that said mainspring is so strong that, with the action cocking upon opening the bolt [as opposed to the British SMLE Enfield, which cocks upon bolt closing, making it one of the fastest bolt actions made] causes the shoulder stock to be rotated out of the shoulder position. This Mauser type action, though much more fluid in the Wehrmacht's "Kar-98" in use throughout WWII, on rare occasions required use of the sling -- especially for 1,000 metre shots.

The Japanese Arisaka "Meiji-38" used the "Mauser" straight shank [WWI issue] bolt, and it too would sometimes cause the weapon to be pulled from the shoulder. So, Harold said: "....What you are telling me is that LHO would have had to return the shoulder-stock back into his shoulder the first time he reloaded...and this would cause how much interval between shots...?" I told him that Stone had sent the whole crew down to the rifle range the first week in Dallas, where we fired live rounds in a dozen different models/brands of rifles and carbines. Everybody lost the shoulder seating upon "cranking", and this required more time to reacquire the target using the scope. So we switched to not using the scope, and instead used the "iron-sights" -- but, without a "PROPER" leather sling, shoulder seat was lost every time.

Further, I explained that in order to aquire/re-aquire a target with the alleged LHO scope, the shooter's eye had to be within a half inch of the rear of the scope; thus due to heavy recoil: the shooter gets a "black eye" !!

Moreover, I mentioned that when Stone had rented the "6th Floor Museum" for 3 hours of our use, I had pointed out to Bob Groden that: with the bottom of the window-sill just 7+ inches above the floor, that a shooter [with LHO's upper torso measurements] would have great difficulty "hunching-down" so as to shoot through the window -- which only opened to the half-way point. I further pointed out that the FBI re-enactment photos show that the man holding the rifle is practically a midget, which you can verify with comparative measurement of the M/Carcano versus his upper torso.

BTW: A Silencer/Suppresor will leak smoke even after the first shot, due to an accumulation of gases within the tube, which acts to both give more accuracy & range [more burning of powder] and reduces the noise level.

Rice Krispies !!

Gerry

___________________________________

Gerry, right to the heart of the matter.

Would one assume that Oswald was aware of this stock shift? Is it something that comes with experience with a particular gun. Does the habit of someone as stated in evidence 'buried the gun near walkers place to retrieve later' indicate a knowledge of guns. How delicate exactly are sights. How 'lucky' was the seemingly perfect head shot? Is the pipe in the way for a comfortable shot?

---------------------------------

Groden went "slack-jawed" and turned away from the "6th Floor" so-called sniper's nest, and went to look out on Dealey Plaza. I was just about to inform our "Official Project Camelot BRIEFER" that a right-hand shot towards the "kill-zone" was IMPOSSIBLE due to the vent-pipe's intrusive location. A left handed shooter would have needed to completely remove the weapon from his left shoulder just to crank the bolt handle. Obviously, Groden didn't take to listening to matters beyond his ken, which might have resulted in his having to ask some (seemingly) VERY stupid and amateurish questions -- in public NO LESS !!

[However, that didn't stop Groden from forgetting to mention to Oliver [across the room at the time] that I would recommend loud music as the motorcade races for Parkland -- Judy Collins singing "Amazing Grace".

He DID remember to mention it to the employers on the Jack Ruby film -- beautiful song, even for an atheist such as I.

Visualize where the fully opened bolt lays [necessary to feed another round out of the magazine]; and then wrap LHO's front teeth around the middle of the bolt; that is: if he attempted to "crank" a fresh round into the chamber whilst holding his eye to the scope. Ridiculously apparent to any proffessional shooter.

I first purchased a M/Carcano at 11 years of age -- it was the 6.5 mm "Cadet Carbine" with folding "spike" bayonette. No scope, just "iron sights". As with the alleged LHO MC, the rear aperture sight and the front blade sight are immovable [and un-adjustable for elevation or windage]. First to go on MY "guinea/wop toy", metal fatigue caused failure in the rear bolt assembly, just as was predicted to me by the hardware store owner who refused me any of the out-dated "Japanese" [Arisaka] 6.5 mm and 7.7 mm ammunition. "...This piece-of-xxxx" will blow up in your face...you stupid oversized punk !!" [i traded a Sailor for an Arisaka [plus hooked bayonette], but was never able to get "safe" ammo for my 7.7 mm Navy Model.

A real scope, as opposed to the "cheapo/worthless" P.O.S. farce in the WC exhibits, has either a "T" or a "X-Hairs" painted or engraved on the lens. Moreover, a useful scope has both windage and elevation "ticks" which allow the user to "lead" the moving target [and adjust for wind, mirage, light, etc.] and vertical plane ticks so as to compute in elevation necessary for the range [distance to the target].

Even with an adjustable scope, a shooter must first "bore-sight" the rifle in order to align the bore with the scope "sight-picture". My last tour at the National Matches, Camp Perry, Ohio -- was during the Summer of 1965. I had been issued an M-14 semi-auto U.S. Rifle [NATO calibre - .308 / 7.62 mm] with "Nat'l Match" Heavy Barrel and fibre-glass bedded stock/barrel/frame. My fellow team members became aggravated when I scored in the "low-masters" rather than the "high-expert" range. This meant that further competetion by me would be against "high-masters"; in other words the best in the country, both civilian and military.

My last rotation was as a competitor for the "President's 100", was on the 1,000 yard firing line. I had adjustable [1 minute clicks of windage & elevation] "iron sights", while many on the line had expensive bolt-actions with scopes. We all have "spotter scopes", and at 1,000 yards, that is the last time you will physically "see" the target. You can make out the "number board" next to the target frame, and that is what you "zero-in" on -- making large windage and elevation adjustments in order to move the bore in line with the "V-Ring" of the distant target. Your sling has to be so tight that no pulse is transmitted to the forearm,

else your wrist-pulse can throw the strike of the bullet off as much as 6 inches !!

I missed the Prez-100 shoulder patch and trophy by one "V" -- Boo-Hoo.

Back to the MC. First thing that you learn is that "dry-firing" without a plug or bullet in the powderless cartridge case results in: A severe dent in the throat of said "hull" as it strikes the none-grooved face of the chamber. Big drawback on dry-firing the MC: The magazine follower [lever which pushes upward on the bullets in the magazine] quickly wears a "groove" in the body of both loaded and powderless cartridges; which insures that they can never be reloaded with fresh powder and bullet. Both evidenced in the WC exhibits.

So, somebody foolishly claimed that LHO had used an empty [expended] cartridge case as his bottom-most round [of a 6 round full?? clip !!]; and moreover, this impossible to chamber casing was chambered, extracted and ejected from said MC. Outrageous horsexxxx!! Take that from this wannabe competetive shooter and later sniper. BTW, Col. Wm. Craig Roberts has been a close friend for years. I competed against Hathcock [and a few others] long after leaving the Marines for the Green Berets; however, gunsmithing always mystified me -- seems that it takes more patience than I ever had.

So, now we know that LHO NEVER "dry-fired" his alleged MC; that is: unless he enjoyed black eyes and a toothless mouth. Check with any other purchasers of Jap-scoped MCs, if it didn't go immediately to hooks on the den wall, then the dumbass rookies paid dearly in both eyes and teeth !!

Grits !!

GPH

_____________________________

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Visualize where the fully opened bolt lays [necessary to feed another round out of the magazine]; and then wrap LHO's front teeth around the middle of the bolt; that is: if he attempted to "crank" a fresh round into the chamber whilst holding his eye to the scope. Ridiculously apparent to any proffessional shooter.

.....................

I first purchased a M/Carcano at 11 years of age -- it was the 6.5 mm "Cadet Carbine" with folding "spike" bayonette. No scope, just "iron sights". As with the alleged LHO MC, the rear aperture sight and the front blade sight are immovable [and un-adjustable for elevation or windage]. First to go on MY "guinea/wop toy", metal fatigue caused failure in the rear bolt assembly, just as was predicted to me by the hardware store owner who refused me any of the out-dated "Japanese" [Arisaka] 6.5 mm and 7.7 mm ammunition. "...This piece-of-xxxx" will blow up in your face...you stupid oversized punk !!" [i traded a Sailor for an Arisaka [plus hooked bayonette], but was never able to get "safe" ammo for my 7.7 mm Navy Model.

......................

So, now we know that LHO NEVER "dry-fired" his alleged MC; that is: unless he enjoyed black eyes and a toothless mouth. Check with any other purchasers of Jap-scoped MCs, if it didn't go immediately to hooks on the den wall, then the dumbass rookies paid dearly in both eyes and teeth !!

Grits !!

GPH

_____________________________

Gerry, Thank's a heap.

The first hand on site descriptions are most useful. I'm not a shooter, but my left shoulder itches/cringes in trying to picture myself in place there with pipe etc. I wonder also as Oswald wasn't a short person, and he seemed to me to have a fairly extended head shoulder configuration, trying to crouch and bend around the pipe and get off a good shot would be hard. Also tucking the rilfe in place and getting eye on scope and recycling fast seems a bit of a task? Also the rising trajectory as the Limo proceeded would make each shot harder as he'd have to crouch down more for each shot?

I can see that the bore at muzzle end is centered. The barrel itself is step tapered(?) to other end.

Exactly where the centre of bore is at this end I'm not sure of.

The strike pin is centered in the body of the bolt assembly, and presumably the tip of the pin is centered on the bore.

The precise location of the centre of the strike pin at the rear of the bolt assembly when mounted is hard to see on the photo. It seems to me it may not be where it seems at first glance.

There is a faint indication that the top edge of the bolt is at a, and this would place the c/l at b. Does this look right?

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Visualize where the fully opened bolt lays [necessary to feed another round out of the magazine]; and then wrap LHO's front teeth around the middle of the bolt; that is: if he attempted to "crank" a fresh round into the chamber whilst holding his eye to the scope. Ridiculously apparent to any proffessional shooter.

.....................

I first purchased a M/Carcano at 11 years of age -- it was the 6.5 mm "Cadet Carbine" with folding "spike" bayonette. No scope, just "iron sights". As with the alleged LHO MC, the rear aperture sight and the front blade sight are immovable [and un-adjustable for elevation or windage]. First to go on MY "guinea/wop toy", metal fatigue caused failure in the rear bolt assembly, just as was predicted to me by the hardware store owner who refused me any of the out-dated "Japanese" [Arisaka] 6.5 mm and 7.7 mm ammunition. "...This piece-of-xxxx" will blow up in your face...you stupid oversized punk !!" [i traded a Sailor for an Arisaka [plus hooked bayonette], but was never able to get "safe" ammo for my 7.7 mm Navy Model.

......................

So, now we know that LHO NEVER "dry-fired" his alleged MC; that is: unless he enjoyed black eyes and a toothless mouth. Check with any other purchasers of Jap-scoped MCs, if it didn't go immediately to hooks on the den wall, then the dumbass rookies paid dearly in both eyes and teeth !!

Grits !!

GPH

_____________________________

Gerry, Thank's a heap.

The first hand on site descriptions are most useful. I'm not a shooter, but my left shoulder itches/cringes in trying to picture myself in place there with pipe etc. I wonder also as Oswald wasn't a short person, and he seemed to me to have a fairly extended head shoulder configuration, trying to crouch and bend around the pipe and get off a good shot would be hard. Also tucking the rilfe in place and getting eye on scope and recycling fast seems a bit of a task? Also the rising trajectory as the Limo proceeded would make each shot harder as he'd have to crouch down more for each shot?

I can see that the bore at muzzle end is centered. The barrel itself is step tapered(?) to other end.

Exactly where the centre of bore is at this end I'm not sure of.

The strike pin is centered in the body of the bolt assembly, and presumably the tip of the pin is centered on the bore.

The precise location of the centre of the strike pin at the rear of the bolt assembly when mounted is hard to see on the photo. It seems to me it may not be where it seems at first glance.

There is a faint indication that the top edge of the bolt is at a, and this would place the c/l at b. Does this look right?

---------------------------------

John:

I got lost somewhere along this "center-of-bore" thesis. With most rifles the "firing pin" is centered upon the centerline of the rifle barrel; save for "rimfire' actions [.22 cal. rifles/pistols especially are NOT] -- and even most "rolling-block" rifles, such as the 45-70 cal. Dutch rifle I purchased at 12 years of age. [That rifle was almost "taller" than me, plus it had a short-saber bayonette which was almost 3 feet long to boot. The 45-70 rounds had lead slugs with solid brass cartridge cases, and were the size associated with "Elephant Guns"!! Wow! It was really some kick from the recoil !!]

The firing pin is engineered to "center-strike" the primer cap, which in turn ignites the powder in the cartridge case. Properly loaded with "x" number of grains of powder, combined with the weight of the bullet [measured in grains also]; most of the powder will be burned before the bullet leaves the crimped front of the "hull". Thereafter, even more powder is burned before the bullet leaves the muzzle of the weapon.

Since bullet loads were never an exact science from muzzle-loading musket/long-rifle days to the pre-WWI era, as you can see in hundreds of the yearly re-enactments [with safer modern replicas]; the shooter is temporarily [if windy] enclosed within a blinding cloud of smoke -- ergo, the need for smokeless powder.

The very first consideration for smokeless powder was NOT concealment of the shooter, but to "unblind" him for repeated shots, especially with the emergence of the lever action Henry, Winchester, etc. rifles and carbines. One of the first issue bolt action rifles [Army/Navy/Marines/Balloonists] was the side-loading Krag-Jorgenson .30 cal.; and was carried to Cuba during 1898. Next official issue of course was the "03" Springfield with a Mauser "type" bolt action, and in "30-06" calibre.

The firing pin in the MC [as is the case in some other rifles] is not directly centered within the bolt, and this is due to lugs and cams protruding outside of the body of the bolt.

The only thing I know is that, with metalurgical frailties, an MC shooter could easily end up wearing the thin cylindrical firing pin as an eyeball ornament -- similar to the toothpick through the cherry mode !!

Returning to the now famous "dent/groove" in the "allegedly" recovered "hull" on the 6th Floor. First, these casings were NOT factory manufactured rounds [as has been mistakenly believed by Russo, and hundreds of others -- both LNers & CTs]; but instead were "hand-reloads", made from 7 mm brass-coated "hulls".

Should one fire a "grooved" [fully loaded live round] casing, the heat would either expand the groove and remove the deep impression, or, and most often: the cheap brass would explode at this weak point, expand inside the chamber, be jammed enough that the extractor would strip brass, leaving the weapon in an unfirable state.

In order to fit the MC chamber, said hulls had to be "chopped & re-throated" before being loaded with fresh powder and new [or used!!] bullets -- "slugs" usually means lead bullets as used in revolvers, shotguns, and few rifles. That Winchester/Remington or Western fabricated a large number of "original grade" rounds which would fit the MC is total horsexxxx, as the weapon was considered to be extremely dangerous.

[Fidel was incensed that a large number of MC [sans ammunition] "carbines" took up valuble space on the 1958 (Costa Rica to Manzanillo) C-46 flight piloted by Guillermo Verdaguer]

One of Rolando Masferrer's Miami trainees lost an eye [1962] to a defective MC, one of the 132 he then owned. Moreover, the secondary problem was that a shooter needed "face" protection from the still burning powder spewing forth from the extracted/ejected spent hull -- as it spun, twisted and turned over your face and right shoulder. Plastic shooting glasses [yellow lens] were pitted from burning powder residues. So you wonder, not about the LHO absence of "positive parafin test results" -- but more importantly is: where are the burn marks on his face, which are ALWAYS the result of MC firing, and especially with old ammo which has been degraded by moisture and thus guarantees that at least a third of the powder remains unburnt, as it spins spewing forth very hot gases and powder residue upon the shooter's faces and hair !!

Note also, that during 1963, LHO [who was only trained in auto-loaders, not bolt action rifles] had an excellent opportunity to purchase a surplus M-1 Garand [the very rifle he trained on in the Marines] for slightly more than double the cost of an MC "p.o.s."!! Moreover, it still today breaks down into a smaller package than the alleged LHO MC; and most important: giving him a full 8 round clip which he was trained to expend in rapid fire, while maintaining target aquisition. [a proper leather sling tension insures that no matter how violent/rapid the firing is, the "sight-picture" quickly returns to the aquired position automatically]

For about $12 more, LHO could have purchase my all time favorite, the Brit Enfield SMLE "Jungle Carbine".

"Fastest-bolt-action-in-the-West" [10 round magazine. 303 calibre] -- the Royal Marines of #41 * Commando routinely beat us Marines at annual competition !! "Blee-dat Mo-Fo!!" Bolt actions winning over semi-auto M-1s and M-14s ??!! We always bitched because the Brit firing course meant emptying upon your target, then runninbg forward to the next shorter firing distance position -- even while troops on each side might still be live-firing. USMC "Range-Safety Officers" absolutely forbade us running forward until the "all-clear-on-the-firing-line" order was given.

My first Op back into Cuba was with Menoyo's 2nd Front folks, accompanying former Rebel Army Captains Roger Redondo, Rafael Huguett [plus 4 CIA sponsored pre-BOP infiltrators], et al. -- and Roger chose my SMLE "jungle Carbine" [with its cool flash-hider] as his primary weapon; Rafael chose my MP-40 Schmeisser" burp-gun; while I opted for the M-1 Garand grenades, 2 canteens, 10 8-round .30-06 clips in a WWII/Korea ammo belt -- along with 4 cloth "bandoleers" across my chest Pancho Villa style. [about 300 rounds of ammo counting clips on the sling and shoulder harness]

[i had the intent of "reaching-out-and-touching-someone" at maximum M-1 range, that is: before the "hostiles" got with 1,000 yards of us]

With the SMLE "Jungle Carbine", even LHO could have expended the full .303 calibre magazine in under 10 seconds, and it would have sounded like machine-gun fire to boot !! [and absolutely NO need for a useless scope]

What amazes me [with Russo and others] is that nobody to date has come up with a reasonable senario of LHO's "plan" [if any, and if NOT -- Why??!!]; with the major deficiencies as follows:

[1] LHO "spontaneously" decides to "off" JFK because Marina wouldn't give him any pussy the night before !! Yeah -- right on;

[2] His fails to take the easy [& preferred by experts] "head-on" shot before the "J/Canoe" turns in front of the TSBD;

[3] He opts not to "shoot-it-out" [and "shaheed" himself as a martyr]; but yet carries the MC all of the way across the crowded floor to "hide" it near the rear stairwell/elevator area;

[4] LHO allegedly then humps down the wooden staircase [a-la Dan Rather in his CBS cover-up], walks out of the building -- catches a bus to the Viaduct, taxi-cabs to his "safe-house" for what ?? Oh ! To pick up his alleged snub-nosed .38, and a jacket; and,

[5] Thereupon allegedly encounters JDT and blows him away. [even Jim Leavelle told me in Dallas that had Tippit searched LHO and found a gun -- it was NO BIG DEAL for everybody to be "packin' Heat' (His term), and any Texican would have fully expected to be sent-upon-his-way [except that "packin'" was illegal in Bars].

Kinda reminds me of the scene in the Kostner flick "The Untouchables" -- wherein Sean Connery's character [just before he is murdered by the "Frank Nitti" character] encounters a "knife-wielding" assassin inside his apartment, and states: "....Just like a dumb-xxxx Dago...you bring a knife to a gun fight...!!"

Well, we are expected to beleive that LHO rushed off to the "gun fight" sans his .38 calibre revolver; and he wasn't even Italian !!

This insult to ALL Marines was "spoofed" by former USMC 'nam vet/ D.I. at P.I. now actor R. Lee Ermey

[who played the typical GPH foul-mouthed Drill Instructor in "Full Metal Jacket"] when he lectured his recruits as to the well-earned pride in marksmanship expected of all Marines. "...And that guy on the Texas (Univ. of TX-Austin) "Tower"....he took out targets with most every shot he made...and WHY girls ?? "Sir...Because he was a well trained Marine..Sir !! -- "...And who was it that got off every necessary shot in Dallas...even a final head-shot..girls??" "Sir...that was Lee Harvey Oswald...and he was a well trained Marine...Sir!!"

Biscuits & Gravy,

GPH

________________________

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cold clean bore

The first shot from a rifle that has been cleaned, and not fired recently may go to a different point of impact, for the same point of aim than a rifle that has been fired recently. This first shot is referred to as a shot from a cold, clean, bore.

Fouling Shot

A shot fired in a clean rifle barrel to put the barrel into the normal slightly dirty state from which it is fired. Often, a rifle will shoot to a different point of aim with this shot as compared to the subsequent shots.

Minute Of Angle

Also called MOA. A unit of angle that is equal to one1/60 of one degree. Used to adjust sight angles to aim a firearm. At 100 yards one MOA is equal to very nearly 1 inch. Typical telescopic sights used for competition have adjustments (clicks) in one quarter MOA increments. In most situations a rifle must be able to shoot one minute of angle or less sized groups to be considered highly accurate.(Slang usage: "minute of pop can", "minute of deer", "minute of barn", or some other type of target. This implies a level of accuracy necessary to hit that particular target under "normal" conditions. It can be an approving comment as in "It's good enough for minute of deer." Or derogatory, as in "That gun can't shoot minute of barn.")

Trajectory

The path which a bullet takes from the muzzle of the barrel to it's initial point of rest. A bullet in flight does not fly straight to its target. In fact, the bullet begins dropping under the influence of gravity as soon as it leaves the barrel. To compensate for this, the firearm's sights are aligned to point the barrel upward and perhaps to one side or the other to compensate for the wind. This causes the bullet to arc upward relative to the line of sight within the sighting system, then downward under the influence of gravity to its point of impact. The sights are adjusted in elevation and windage to change it's angle with the barrel to make the bullet point of impact coincide with the point of aim.

Windage

The setting on the sights used to accommodate the wind or adjust for horizontal errors in the alignment of the sights with the bore of the firearm.

Fouling Shot is interesting.)[/color]

John,

A "cold bore" shot will generally strike from 1-3" off center in the 11 o'clock position in comparison to the following shots which will be direct. This variation will depend on the bullet weight, velocity and barrel twist. A Remington 700 chambered for .308 firing a 168gr bullet will generally strike 11 o'clock of point of aim at 2" out, from a 100 yard shot.

What GPH is speaking of with the black eye and knocked out teeth of chambered while on-target is what I have been referring to for some time here and on Lancer with the MC. The long bolt and short stock does not allow the shooter to maintain a cheek weld while cycling the bolt.

Would respond further, but am doing shotgun maint. for my department the latter part of this week and my hands are cramping and back and neck is killing me. Hope to get a chance this weekend to comment further as there are many issues concerning the MC, the 6th floor and the shot sequence/impacts that make it a rediculous theory.

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerry and Al, I (and no doubt many others) am most grateful for your advice and insights. I've slowed down on this to absorb the information and to learn some of the concepts.

One thing I've found is that the location of the pipe is not clear, I've had to use a roof pic from floor 5 and a floor pic from 6 plus some long shots, and it seems to me it is not quite where indicated on diagrams.

I think the guy doing the tests is tucked right up to it and, in another photo, there is a guy sitting on a box for dimension study and one can see his left shoulder bent forward to avoid the pipe in order to be where the WC suggest the sniper was.

(*A thought on this : could the pipe be an aid to steady by leaning in ot it or is it basically an obstruction?)

Here is an estimate where I think the pipe is, based on photos. I've not been there so can someone who knows comment?

Also I understand the floor has been refloored (more than once?) what is the distance in 63 from floor to ledge? I can count bricks and guesstimate on mortar thickness,. What are standard US brick / mortar dimensions in 1900?)

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerry and Al, I (and no doubt many others) am most grateful for your advice and insights. I've slowed down on this to absorb the information and to learn some of the concepts.

One thing I've found is that the location of the pipe is not clear, I've had to use a roof pic from floor 5 and a floor pic from 6 plus some long shots, and it seems to me it is not quite where indicated on diagrams.

I think the guy doing the tests is tucked right up to it and, in another photo, there is a guy sitting on a box for dimension study and one can see his left shoulder bent forward to avoid the pipe in order to be where the WC suggest the sniper was.

(*A thought on this : could the pipe be an aid to steady by leaning in ot it or is it basically an obstruction?)

(see image above)

Here is an estimate where I think the pipe is, based on photos. I've not been there so can someone who knows comment?

Also I understand the floor has been refloored (more than once?) what is the distance in 63 from floor to ledge? I can count bricks and guesstimate on mortar thickness,. What are standard US brick / mortar dimensions in 1900?)

This indicates why I think the pipe location is important. If the pipe is as a I suggest or even not where diagrams suggest, The space available makes the last shot in particular in such a place as to negate witness statements re. seeing person and gun protruding.

___________________________________________

(((I would also like to know the following data for 11/22/63 Dealey Plaza.

RANGE CONDITIONS

-G-M angle.

-Noon temperature.

-Pressure in Hg.

-Humidity %rel

GUN / CARTRIDGE DATA (With MC in mind)

Bullet:

-Ballistic coefficient.

-Sectional density.

-Rifle:

Distance from sight plane to bore axis.

Anmgle between bore axis and sight plane (I've estimated this from photo analysis to be 0.8 degrees,. Also I've estimated near zero at 10.7 feet)

Gun/Lot :

-Muzzle velocity. +/- ? ft/s)))

______________________________________________

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerry and Al, I (and no doubt many others) am most grateful for your advice and insights. I've slowed down on this to absorb the information and to learn some of the concepts.

One thing I've found is that the location of the pipe is not clear, I've had to use a roof pic from floor 5 and a floor pic from 6 plus some long shots, and it seems to me it is not quite where indicated on diagrams.

I think the guy doing the tests is tucked right up to it and, in another photo, there is a guy sitting on a box for dimension study and one can see his left shoulder bent forward to avoid the pipe in order to be where the WC suggest the sniper was.

(*A thought on this : could the pipe be an aid to steady by leaning in ot it or is it basically an obstruction?)

(see image above)

Here is an estimate where I think the pipe is, based on photos. I've not been there so can someone who knows comment?

Also I understand the floor has been refloored (more than once?) what is the distance in 63 from floor to ledge? I can count bricks and guesstimate on mortar thickness,. What are standard US brick / mortar dimensions in 1900?)

This indicates why I think the pipe location is important. If the pipe is as a I suggest or even not where diagrams suggest, The space available makes the last shot in particular in such a place as to negate witness statements re. seeing person and gun protruding.

(see image above)

___________________________________________

(((I would also like to know the following data for 11/22/63 Dealey Plaza.

RANGE CONDITIONS

-G-M angle.

-Noon temperature.

-Pressure in Hg.

-Humidity %rel

GUN / CARTRIDGE DATA (With MC in mind)

Bullet:

-Ballistic coefficient.

-Sectional density.

-Rifle:

Distance from sight plane to bore axis.

Anmgle between bore axis and sight plane (I've estimated this from photo analysis to be 0.8 degrees,. Also I've estimated near zero at 10.7 feet)

Gun/Lot :

-Muzzle velocity. +/- ? ft/s)))

______________________________________________

This is what Brennan had to say in 1987. (It reads like a penny thriller :ph34r:

"My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. "Was he going to fire again?" I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberatley he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who had "bagged his buck." Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."

I've never been to Dallas, so I've no idea how accurate this is.

Based on diagrams and photographs (mostly from WC, I did this deliberately to see what the evidence used would say.) this is what it seems to me to have been like at the 'nest'. As no photos exist (as far as I know) showing the view from behind the alleged snipers head, I've had to 'guesstimate'.

It seems to me that the shots would have had to be taken with the pipe in front of the left shoulder. This would mean (see B.) that Brennan could not have seen what he says he saw.

(see image below)

The photos taken of the tests conducted seem to be staged to make it seem that this is possible by some 'sleights of foot' and careful photography that obscures the true location, in relation to the window edge, of the pipes. The feet of the person being photographed hides the pipe base and the person has contorted themselves as if to make it seem there is plenty of room.

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerry and Al, I (and no doubt many others) am most grateful for your advice and insights. I've slowed down on this to absorb the information and to learn some of the concepts.

One thing I've found is that the location of the pipe is not clear, I've had to use a roof pic from floor 5 and a floor pic from 6 plus some long shots, and it seems to me it is not quite where indicated on diagrams.

I think the guy doing the tests is tucked right up to it and, in another photo, there is a guy sitting on a box for dimension study and one can see his left shoulder bent forward to avoid the pipe in order to be where the WC suggest the sniper was.

(*A thought on this : could the pipe be an aid to steady by leaning in ot it or is it basically an obstruction?)

(see image above)

Here is an estimate where I think the pipe is, based on photos. I've not been there so can someone who knows comment?

Also I understand the floor has been refloored (more than once?) what is the distance in 63 from floor to ledge? I can count bricks and guesstimate on mortar thickness,. What are standard US brick / mortar dimensions in 1900?)

This indicates why I think the pipe location is important. If the pipe is as a I suggest or even not where diagrams suggest, The space available makes the last shot in particular in such a place as to negate witness statements re. seeing person and gun protruding.

(see image above)

___________________________________________

(((I would also like to know the following data for 11/22/63 Dealey Plaza.

RANGE CONDITIONS

-G-M angle.

-Noon temperature.

-Pressure in Hg.

-Humidity %rel

GUN / CARTRIDGE DATA (With MC in mind)

Bullet:

-Ballistic coefficient.

-Sectional density.

-Rifle:

Distance from sight plane to bore axis.

Anmgle between bore axis and sight plane (I've estimated this from photo analysis to be 0.8 degrees,. Also I've estimated near zero at 10.7 feet)

Gun/Lot :

-Muzzle velocity. +/- ? ft/s)))

______________________________________________

This is what Brennan had to say in 1987. (It reads like a penny thriller :ph34r:

"My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. "Was he going to fire again?" I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberatley he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who had "bagged his buck." Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."

I've never been to Dallas, so I've no idea how accurate this is.

Based on diagrams and photographs (mostly from WC, I did this deliberately to see what the evidence used would say.) this is what it seems to me to have been like at the 'nest'. As no photos exist (as far as I know) showing the view from behind the alleged snipers head, I've had to 'guesstimate'.

It seems to me that the shots would have had to be taken with the pipe in front of the left shoulder. This would mean (see B.) that Brennan could not have seen what he says he saw.

--------------------------

The photos taken of the tests conducted seem to be staged to make it seem that this is possible by some 'sleights of foot' and careful photography that obscures the true location, in relation to the window edge, of the pipes. The feet of the person being photographed hides the pipe base and the person has contorted themselves as if to make it seem there is plenty of room.

According to a previous study of mine the shot that hit Connally could be from here, and this could be from in front of the pipes. To move from there into position for the headshot would throw timing out the window (npi) . Ipso facto...conspiracy.

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerry and Al, I (and no doubt many others) am most grateful for your advice and insights. I've slowed down on this to absorb the information and to learn some of the concepts.

One thing I've found is that the location of the pipe is not clear, I've had to use a roof pic from floor 5 and a floor pic from 6 plus some long shots, and it seems to me it is not quite where indicated on diagrams.

I think the guy doing the tests is tucked right up to it and, in another photo, there is a guy sitting on a box for dimension study and one can see his left shoulder bent forward to avoid the pipe in order to be where the WC suggest the sniper was.

(*A thought on this : could the pipe be an aid to steady by leaning in ot it or is it basically an obstruction?)

Here is an estimate where I think the pipe is, based on photos. I've not been there so can someone who knows comment?

Also I understand the floor has been refloored (more than once?) what is the distance in 63 from floor to ledge? I can count bricks and guesstimate on mortar thickness,. What are standard US brick / mortar dimensions in 1900?)

--------------------------------

John:

I opted for this shorter post in order to avoid that members would be forced to scroll down through all of the excellent photo/simulation that you contributed.

The very short hours that we spent on the 6th floor during 1991 confirmed my recollection of what I had discerned from all of the WC/FBI phoney re-enactment crap years before doing the "RFK" gig. I have a letter from the 6th floor bossman [can't recall his name now -CRS no doubt -- afflicts us elderly types !!]; but he approached me after Oliver told everybody it was time to leave...and he said it in a very loud and gruff voice. I attributed it to the emotion of being a belated witness to the scene of a horrific murder.

As I politely stopped to hear what the guy was saying, I looked back towards Stone...who had a nasty look on his face...and the bossman/director [whatever his title] turned and looked at Oliver...raised his hand in a gesture indicating...one moment...if you don't mind ?? -- and Stone turned and stormed out !!

All that the guy wanted was if I would submit to an oral history, and make recommendations as to more materials which might balance the "theme" away from a TOTAL concordance with the Warren Comm'n Report.

My extremely polite answer was: "....You gotta be xxxxting me...they would close you down in a heartbeat if they even heard that you talked to me...!!" He responded: "....We are granted wide autono..." -- And I interrupted with: "..Bullxxxx...the only reason we were allowed up here...even to redo the 7th floor...even to close off Dealey Plaza...even to be in this goddamn city...is because of the BIG bucks Stone is paying the local godfather assholes...don't xxxx me now...I'm too big a turd...anyway...I will call you from Miami...And I will be astonished if you are still here..!!"

I had previously asked Jane's underling at the "Art Department" [in a warehouse blocks away] to supply me with ALL of the 6th floor photos, especially those of the so called "sniper's nest" -- and especially the FBI re-enactment phonies. Armed with these I made visual comparisons. Standing outside of the plexi-glass barrier wall, I compared window sill height above floor, positioning of the book boxes [6th floor had it wrong, plus left out the rear-barricade pile in order to give the public a clearer view] -- and tried to imagine how the hell somebody 5' 9" tall could contort himself into a firing position ??!! [especially when taking the head-shot].

The pipe [as then portrayed] appeared to be the original. It appeared to be 4 inches to the left of the window, and 3 inches off of the brick wall. To me, that indicated that it might be a "heat" vent stand-pipe; but not insulated with wrap, because the temperatures were most likely hot -- but not fire-hazard hot.

I suspected that on that November morning, the pipe was more than just warm -- and anybody leaning against it, would have been either burned or very uncomfortable. Neverthetheless, hot or cold, it blocked a right-handed shooter from taking ANY shots, even if employing the rarely used Marine Corps semi-kneeling position !!

As expected, nobody making the movie [or consulting/advising upon same] wanted to hear zip about the pipe, window, shooter position, etc. --especially Gus Russo and Bob Groden.

Nothing "NEW" here -- back to C-SPAN, and feeling like a "Big-shot". [better watch those X-Rays Lady, maybe some lead shielding for your head might help with your disposition, or better yet -- a DIET !!],

"Patria o Muerte" / "Venceremos" -- Love that "paratrooping" Hugo Chavez !!

Gerry

__________________________

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John,

An interesting and intriguing post -- thank you.

I would imagine that the blueprints of the TSBD are available in Dallas. Most areas have zoning laws, etc, that require prints to be on file. Also, substantive changes usually require permits, and associated revisions to the prints.

I don't know what would be involved in obtaining a complete print, or what the cost would be, but it might be something for one of our Dallas-based researchers to look into. A complete set of prints would also reveal the purpose of the pipes. The idea that Gerry put forth about the pipe being related to heating and that it might have been hot is one that never crossed my mind.

[quick edit/addition] Google Earth shows the TSBD roof fairly clearly. The pipe does not appear to extend up through to any sort of device on the roof. Whatever its purpose, it stays within the building, unless it turns on a higher floor.

Contorting against a pipe is bad enough, let alone one that is at an uncomfortable temperature...

In spite of that, squeeze off a world-class shot at a moving target with a weapon as bas as the MC...

All with a dime-store misaligned scope... ??

Frank

Edited by Frank Agbat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerry, the east pipe has a bend, at the base of this bend the west pipe appears to lean slightly east, this could bring the pipe on fl. 7 as suggested. I wonder how many bricks from corner to edge of window opening (fl.6). I estimate from photos 3.5. The problem with the photo estimates is the distortions from photo to photo, however, irrespective of how it may look, a brick is a brick.

Frank, possibly flashing a pipe through flat roof can be dicey, any wall exits? A plan would be great, but if one could find also how many bricks from corner to window opening, a good estimate could be made. It strikes me as important in order to evaluate this topic concept fully.

________________________

I'm also chasing the info re. gun/ load / range data as described above. The left mount zoom seems to me to increase possibility of a slightly off vertical rifle tilt for a right handed person. So far it seems, as noted and confirmed by Gerry, a pretty iffy situation. One thought on this : the certainty of assassination would mean the best spot was taken, (left, front, right?), hence the spot where attention was wanted would also be the iffy one?

The MC setup may indicate an independent zeroing> IF the guns were handed to someone to prepare who did not know its precise purposes, and the instructions were sloppy (like so much else in this case) then perhaps one could say that the assassin was left handed and the far zero is the distance from ground zero to real nest? What I'm saying is : the MC was prepared re. zeroing etc for a left handed person, with the same range figures as the 'real' gun? Taking into account different load/gun characteristics, could shooter location be 'reverse engineered'?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A reasonably current roof view of TSBD:

Compare that with:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JAMESdealey6.htm

and

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JAMESdealey5.htm

Doesn't look to me like there are any whirlygigs or anything else flashed through the roof in the area above the supposed sniper's lair. Some of the other pictures on Spartacus give slightly different angles, but none of them show anything through the roof.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be many TSBD pictures shot from the east, so I'll have to do a little digging to see if there is anything that pops out the side of the building.

---

I was hoping Tom Alyea's film would have a frame where the pipes were visible. This does not seem to be the case, unfortunately. You're right, though, distortions aside, a brick is a brick. Likewise, the floorboards could provide some useful reference points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...