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Some Ballistics questions


John Dolva
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Gerry and Al, I (and no doubt many others) am most grateful for your advice and insights. I've slowed down on this to absorb the information and to learn some of the concepts.

One thing I've found is that the location of the pipe is not clear, I've had to use a roof pic from floor 5 and a floor pic from 6 plus some long shots, and it seems to me it is not quite where indicated on diagrams.

I think the guy doing the tests is tucked right up to it and, in another photo, there is a guy sitting on a box for dimension study and one can see his left shoulder bent forward to avoid the pipe in order to be where the WC suggest the sniper was.

This indicates why I think the pipe location is important. If the pipe is as a I suggest or even not where diagrams suggest, The space available makes the last shot in particular in such a place as to negate witness statements re. seeing person and gun protruding.

(see image above)

This is what Brennan had to say in 1987. (It reads like a penny thriller :)

"My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. "Was he going to fire again?" I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberatley he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who had "bagged his buck." Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."

I've never been to Dallas, so I've no idea how accurate this is.

Based on diagrams and photographs (mostly from WC, I did this deliberately to see what the evidence used would say.) this is what it seems to me to have been like at the 'nest'. As no photos exist (as far as I know) showing the view from behind the alleged snipers head, I've had to 'guesstimate'.

It seems to me that the shots would have had to be taken with the pipe in front of the left shoulder. This would mean (see B.) that Brennan could not have seen what he says he saw.

--------------------------

The photos taken of the tests conducted seem to be staged to make it seem that this is possible by some 'sleights of foot' and careful photography that obscures the true location, in relation to the window edge, of the pipes. The feet of the person being photographed hides the pipe base and the person has contorted themselves as if to make it seem there is plenty of room.

According to a previous study of mine the shot that hit Connally could be from here, and this could be from in front of the pipes. To move from there into position for the headshot would throw timing out the window (npi) . Ipso facto...conspiracy.

I'm also chasing the info re. gun/ load / range data . . So far it seems, as noted and confirmed by Gerry, a pretty iffy situation.

((One thought on this : the certainty of assassination would mean the best spot was taken, (left, front, right?), hence the spot where attention was wanted would also be the iffy one?

The MC setup may indicate an independent zeroing> IF the guns were handed to someone to prepare who did not know its precise purposes, and the instructions were sloppy (like so much else in this case) then perhaps one could say that the assassin was left handed and the far zero is the distance from ground zero to real nest? What I'm saying is : the MC was prepared re. zeroing etc for a left handed person, with the same range figures as the 'real' gun? Taking into account different load/gun characteristics, could shooter location be 'reverse engineered'?))

I would also like to know the following data for 11/22/63 Dealey Plaza.

RANGE CONDITIONS

-G-M angle.

-Noon temperature.

-Pressure in Hg.

-Humidity %rel

GUN / CARTRIDGE DATA (With MC in mind)

Bullet:

-Ballistic coefficient.

-Sectional density.

-Rifle:

Distance from sight plane to bore axis.

Anmgle between bore axis and sight plane (I've estimated this from photo analysis to be 0.8 degrees,. Also I've estimated near zero at 10.7 feet)

1 in 81/2" to 1 in 10" turn twist1 turn in7" twist

Gun/Lot :

-Muzzle velocity. +/- ? ft/s)))

___________________

It seems a bit hard to get clear info on this. So far:

Muzzle velocity: "in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps" , "Muzzle Velocity – 2038fps"

"the ballistic coefficient for the Italian 162 grain FMJ RN bullet is approximately .275"

"The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is well known."

____________________________________________

With regards to PIPE. (refer to above posts and images) Could anyone in Dallas this week check how many bricks from corner to pipe at floor level, floor six, please? It may be that the wall has been rendered or panelled, in which case an inch measurement.

I've from various photographs estimated the corner to edge of window opening at 3, 3.5, and 4 bricks. I notice that some of the brick courses at this floor are an odd jumble of portions of brick.

I've also estimated (again based on various photos) the pipe as being 3.5 or 4 bricks from corner.

If someone could take time out to check this in Dallas this week it would be a great help. Also a photo from further back (not at suggested snper position, but behind this) lining up the window opening at crouch level with headshot area. (Pretty please with lashings of sugar on top)

Edited by John Dolva
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A curious thing I was unaware of (from a post by Lee in "interesting letter dean rusk" topic):

"There are not one but two sounds made by a weapon's firing. The first is that of the powder exploding; the second is the sonic boom that results when a high-velocity shell exceeds the sound barrier. Wer Bells's supressor virtually eliminated the first noise. The second sound could also be prevented: all that was necessary was for the shooter to lower the velocity of his bullet by using less powder than usual. This done, the weapon made less noise than a cap pistol and, with the powder flash smothered, rendered the sniper less visible than ever before. (Soldiers in Vietnam, however, found that the sonic boom had its own utility; because the bullet moved faster that the speed of sound, those being shot heard the shot only as it moved away from them. As a consequence their first reaction was to retreat into the direction from which the shots came from- walking backwards into the same shots.)

It is curious that no one seems to have mentioned this characteristic in connection with the John F Kennedy assassination, in which both the number and direction of shots fired are still debated. If a silencer was used in combination with another, unsilenced rifle, witnesses located in different parts of the caravan and Dealy Plaza would have heard the shots coming from different directions. Unanimity would have been impossible on the subject of the gunfire's origins."

Does that mean that a shot heard initially as coming from say a north location may actually have come from south? The way I read this is that subsequent 'noise' from true location would be if not blanked as per noted reaction, could concievably be put down to reverberations or echos?

I find this baffling, it needs to be clarified/explained.

_________________________________________________________

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I wonder if the following has been considered?

FACTS:

a.) There are two large groupings of ear witnesses : TSBD and GK.

b.) There is one main grouping of ear witnesses : One shot, space, two closer spaced shots.

SPECULATION:

That the spacing b.) of the shots may differ across the two a.) groups in such a way that one could say that TSBD group indicates a longer or shorter space between the 'first' and 'second two' shots?

It seems to me that if the two sets of shots came from two different locations then whichever group reports a shorter interval between 'first' and 'second two' is closer to the first shot than to the 'second two'. Conversely whichever group reports a more even spacing is closer to the second two. This is a bit of a mind-wrench to me, perhaps someone with an acrobatic mind could consider if there is something worth persuing here.

Edited by John Dolva
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I wonder if the following has been considered?

FACTS:

a.) There are two large groupings of ear witnesses : TSBD and GK.

b.) There is one main grouping of ear witnesses : One shot, space, two closer spaced shots.

SPECULATION:

That the spacing b.) of the shots may differ across the two a.) groups in such a way that one could say that TSBD group indicates a longer or shorter space between the 'first' and 'second two' shots?

It seems to me that if the two sets of shots came from two different locations then whichever group reports a shorter interval between 'first' and 'second two' is closer to the first shot than to the 'second two'. Conversely whichever group reports a more even spacing is closer to the second two. This is a bit of a mind-wrench to me, perhaps someone with an acrobatic mind could consider if there is something worth persuing here.

------------------------------

John:

Lt. Carrier should be the guy that translates the technical stuff into layman's terms. However, I think that he stated that he was going to be very busy at work during the near term, and thus unavailable.

As I said before, I never had the patience to get into the "gunsmithing & engineering" side of shooting; I just kept my weapons in shape, and made sure that all necessary prepping was done in order that I hit what I was "aiming at" !!

During official shooting match competitions [both rifle and pistol], as opposed to "basic" or annual requalification -- there are mobile trailers & tents where one finds an assigned Master Gunsmith or two. These folks do repairs and minor modifications on our issued weapons. However, most, when on duty or during their free time, spend an ernormous amount of time designing, engineering, and radically modifying weapons. Many of these folks have gone commercial, and you can find their unique and very advanced firearms products in all hunting, fishing, adventure and shooting publications.

Especially in the case of Marine recruits, their first experience at seemingly getting "shot at' is when working the "Butts". These are the pits where guys and gals raise and lower the large wooden framed target holders. They stand and look up awaiting the appearance of a hole in their target.

It sometimes takes 15 minutes of slow fire [500 yards range] before the "Butt" troops learn that the sonic crack belongs to their target, and not the one on either side. Before that, a Sergeant running the Butts and manning a field telephone will be heard screaming "...pull the goddamn target on # 12, etc. !!"

Lo and befold, the recruit notices a little hole in the large paper target, inserts a 5 inch disc with a wooden peg through its center -- into the hole. The "Boot" now runs the target back up, and if the now marked hole is inside the target perimeter, raises a green disc on a long pole and centers it over the marking disc. That way, a shooter, even without a spotter scope can see whether he/she got a 5V or 5 "bullseye" or lesser scored shot -- which is then noted in the shooter's log book.

[The first page of the log book gives the initial "Zero" of the weapon, that is: when it was first fired while "sighting-in"; but sometimes the "zero" (measured in clicks of elevation and windage at 300 yards) will change as the "cheek weld", eye distance, etc. factors change over time, even with the same weapon during the same week. Sometimes the loss of body fat or dehydration will cause the shooter to inadvertently change his firing "lock" or stance.]

As you move from 500 yards down to the 300 yard line, etc. -- sometimes the "zero" is a click or two off, and mostly due to the fact that at 500 yards you were "off-hand" standing. At 300 yards you will fire kneeling and sitting, and this oftentimes causes a minor change in "Zero".

Back to the butts: Very quickly the recruit learns to identify a close sonic crack and thus knows that a round has passed through or near his/her target. Therefore [and to avoid a boot in the ass by the kindly Sgt.] the target frame is quickly hauled down, disced, and flagged. The next shot means that you will have available a paper patch and a bowl with brush, containing a foul smelling [and tasting] glue which is "boiled" from cow's hooves, without removing cowxxxx turds from same. You pull the disc, punch it into the new hole [if there is one] and "mosty-riky-tik" -- slap the glue and patch over the first hole.

Should the shooter be so unlucky as to miss the inside of the target, or the frame completely -- the butt-person raises aloft a long pole adorned with a bright red flag, which is gleefully wave to-and-fro in the most insulting fashion and seemingly screams: "...You missed...you stupid son-of-a-bitch..!!"

The red flag is called "Maggie's Drawers", and the shame-faced shooter is required to enter a "0"/MD in his log book -- that is: just as soon as the Drill Instructor has finished beating him about the head and shoulders.

A rifle scope is "bore-sighted". With a bolt action weapon, you pull the bolt out of the frame completely -- peer through the bore at your "zeroing" target, then shift your eyes to the scope and adjust same to the center of the target. A cheapo sight requires shimming, and this requires a gunsmith or talented range-master. With semi-auto rifle, you must use a "bore-scope", which is inserted into the chamber/magazine area and then used to center the bore on the target. Then the scope is adjusted.

Silencers/suppressors: Using low velocity ammunition in a pistol, rifle or sub-machine gun [bullet velocity less than mach-1] means that the only sound heard is the clacking of the bolt, and small sounds made by the extraction, ejection, and re-feeding of subsequent rounds. Dampening can be accomplished, such that: from 10 feet away; not a sound is heard !! For instance, the Ingram M-10 came in 2 calibres, a subsonic .45 auto, and a supersonic 9 mm. In the field ["Burbs or Bush"] we carried coded magazines of sub-sonic and sonic 9 mm; and the choice was made depending upon how close the targeted person was, or proximity of bystanders or other security threats.

A silenced high-powered rifle is NOT intended to be silent, but instead the tube causes any targets or bystanders, etc. to believe that the weapon is being fired from from a position at least 45 degrees off from actual site -- so everybody looks in the wrong direction !!

Anecdotes: While demonstrating a totally silenced .22 cal. rifle, and while my partner stood at least 50 feet away firing without a suppressed weapon -- I, slightly to the rear, of a group of El Salvador Colonels; shot past them into the head of a pig -- and when the bodyguards panicked at the blood and brain splatter, they looked to my partner, but were confused totally in that he had his back to the pig. Yet its head continued to disintegrate. They only wised up when I said: "Ahem...Mis Coroneles...notice the smoke from my silencer and the shell casings at my feet...truly it was I who destroyed the pig...!! Thereupon a Colonel and one bodyguard xxxx their pants, and we moved away from the stench "most riky-tik" !!

With Prez-General Somoza's half-brother ["Papa Chepe"] it was a similar demonstation. Only this time I had an M-11 (.380 cal.) inside our special attache-case model. Whilst Anselmito blazed away sans silencer in front of them, I emptied a full magazine out through the name-tag "gun-port" !! A minute later I pointed out that somebody must have noticed that a sand bag [45 degrees off] had been jumping around and disintegrating, and suddenly they were now curious as to what caused that. I placed the now open attache-case on the ground, and they slack-jawed gawked at the escaping smoke and the load of hulls inside the case. The bodyguards were fired on the spot, and jailed !!

With Mario Sandoval Alarcon it was near the Everglades just short of Krome Ave., near a small lake. Anselmito and "Rolandito" Masferrer fired M-10s [.45 cal.] "across-their-bows", as they marveled at the fact that they were only hearing the buzzing sounds of Bees or deer flies !!

At least 4 Secret Service Agents later claimed to have heard the Buzzing of bees in Dealey Plaza that tragic day !!

While setting up the DalTex hide-site for Oliver Stone, I got into a loud argument with both Dale Dye and Stanley White, specifically about the fact that when considering the presence of people on the fire escape and adjacent windows -- IF any shot was fired, a silenced weapon had to be used !! Capt. Dale Dye, USMC (Ret.) and Detective Sgt. Stanley White (L.A. County Sheriff's Dept.) loudly insisted that I was wrong and that nobody used silencers in 1963 -- and besides, they don't work on rifles !!

Stone listened as I explained that: OK, when short on silencers, a pro-operator will build a cardboard box, line it with empty egg cartons as inside sound proofing. and the muffling will give at least 75% silence and 45 degrees of diversion. [The box is designed to fold flat, and be carried under the arm]

As we continued arguing, and while leaving the 2nd floor, Oliver said: "...While nothing is carved in stone yet, we have to insure that Garrison was aware of this between 1966-1967...or forget about it...!!"

So much for Hollywood !!

GPH

_______________________

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"John:

Lt. Carrier should be the guy that translates the technical stuff into layman's terms. However, I think that he stated that he was going to be very busy at work during the near term, and thus unavailable.

As I said before, I never had the patience to get into the "gunsmithing & engineering" side of shooting; I just kept my weapons in shape, and made sure that all necessary prepping was done in order that I hit what I was "aiming at" !!

During official shooting match competitions [both rifle and pistol], as opposed to "basic" or annual requalification -- there are mobile trailers & tents where one finds an assigned Master Gunsmith or two. These folks do repairs and minor modifications on our issued weapons. However, most, when on duty or during their free time, spend an ernormous amount of time designing, engineering, and radically modifying weapons. Many of these folks have gone commercial, and you can find their unique and very advanced firearms products in all hunting, fishing, adventure and shooting publications.

Especially in the case of Marine recruits, their first experience at seemingly getting "shot at' is when working the "Butts". These are the pits where guys and gals raise and lower the large wooden framed target holders. They stand and look up awaiting the appearance of a hole in their target.

It sometimes takes 15 minutes of slow fire [500 yards range] before the "Butt" troops learn that the sonic crack belongs to their target, and not the one on either side. Before that, a Sergeant running the Butts and manning a field telephone will be heard screaming "...pull the goddamn target on # 12, etc. !!"

.......................................

"

Thank you Gerry, the picture is fleshing out nicely with the 'hands on', practical background.

I wonder from where would you have picked as absolute IDEAL location of best shot in Dealey Plaza?

It's probably hard to not use hind sight, but if one pictures self pre 11/22 with no certainty of success, with a gun/load/range knowledge available at the time?

_____________________________________

Ive been trying to gather some of the technical stuff I'm hoping Al will contribute on.

I understand that G-M is not relevant.

So far::

RANGE CONDITIONS

-Noon temperature.??

-Pressure in Hg.??

-Humidity %rel??

GUN / CARTRIDGE DATA (With MC in mind)

Bullet: 6.5 X 52 cartridge

-Ballistic coefficient. - approximately .275

-Sectional density.??

-Rifle:

Distance from sight plane to bore axis.??

Anmgle between bore axis and sight plane - estimated 0.8 degrees, estimated near zero 10.7 feet

(1 in 81/2" to 1 in 10" turn twist1 turn in7" twist)??

Gun/Lot :

-Muzzle velocity. - 2038fps (+/- ? ft/s)))?

___________________

Edited by John Dolva
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Thank you Gerry, the picture is fleshing out nicely with the 'hands on', practical background.

I wonder from where would you have picked as absolute IDEAL location of best shot in Dealey Plaza?

It's probably hard to not use hind sight, but if one pictures self pre 11/22 with no certainty of success, with a gun/load/range knowledge available at the time?

_____________________________________

Another thing brought to mind re. earwitnessing and hence 'those in the know considerations' is from a post by Gerry where he says 'watch your 6'. I assume this means watch your ass or watch out at six o'clock.

In the beginning of the second world war prior to dunkirk the british air force was much influenced by old thought. Meanwhile, planes had gotten faster, and the Luftwaffe had experience in Spain with the new generation planes. Reaction to being fired upon becomes critical.

There was an american volunteer with experience in the China theatre who contributed something important.

He asked the squadron to pose for a group photo. Behind the group he had a man with a gun waiting for a signal. Just as the photo was taken the gun was fired.

The photo was shown. Half of the group had been standing to the front-left of the gun, half front-right.

However, ALL of the group had reacted by looking over their RIGHT shoulder.

The germans knew this and it explained some of their success. They had taken to sneaking up on the left and firing, knowing that the British pilots would check right rear.

So: yes watch your 6, but don't neglect 7.

Apart from the difficulties regarding elevation and tracking perhaps one good location would have been records building?

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I wonder if the following has been considered?

FACTS:

a.) There are two large groupings of ear witnesses : TSBD and GK.

b.) There is one main grouping of ear witnesses : One shot, space, two closer spaced shots.

SPECULATION:

That the spacing b.) of the shots may differ across the two a.) groups in such a way that one could say that TSBD group indicates a longer or shorter space between the 'first' and 'second two' shots?

It seems to me that if the two sets of shots came from two different locations then whichever group reports a shorter interval between 'first' and 'second two' is closer to the first shot than to the 'second two'. Conversely whichever group reports a more even spacing is closer to the second two. This is a bit of a mind-wrench to me, perhaps someone with an acrobatic mind could consider if there is something worth persuing here.

------------------------------

John:

Lt. Carrier should be the guy that translates the technical stuff into layman's terms. However, I think that he stated that he was going to be very busy at work during the near term, and thus unavailable.

As I said before, I never had the patience to get into the "gunsmithing & engineering" side of shooting; I just kept my weapons in shape, and made sure that all necessary prepping was done in order that I hit what I was "aiming at" !!

During official shooting match competitions [both rifle and pistol], as opposed to "basic" or annual requalification -- there are mobile trailers & tents where one finds an assigned Master Gunsmith or two. These folks do repairs and minor modifications on our issued weapons. However, most, when on duty or during their free time, spend an ernormous amount of time designing, engineering, and radically modifying weapons. Many of these folks have gone commercial, and you can find their unique and very advanced firearms products in all hunting, fishing, adventure and shooting publications.

Especially in the case of Marine recruits, their first experience at seemingly getting "shot at' is when working the "Butts". These are the pits where guys and gals raise and lower the large wooden framed target holders. They stand and look up awaiting the appearance of a hole in their target.

It sometimes takes 15 minutes of slow fire [500 yards range] before the "Butt" troops learn that the sonic crack belongs to their target, and not the one on either side. Before that, a Sergeant running the Butts and manning a field telephone will be heard screaming "...pull the goddamn target on # 12, etc. !!"

Lo and befold, the recruit notices a little hole in the large paper target, inserts a 5 inch disc with a wooden peg through its center -- into the hole. The "Boot" now runs the target back up, and if the now marked hole is inside the target perimeter, raises a green disc on a long pole and centers it over the marking disc. That way, a shooter, even without a spotter scope can see whether he/she got a 5V or 5 "bullseye" or lesser scored shot -- which is then noted in the shooter's log book.

[The first page of the log book gives the initial "Zero" of the weapon, that is: when it was first fired while "sighting-in"; but sometimes the "zero" (measured in clicks of elevation and windage at 300 yards) will change as the "cheek weld", eye distance, etc. factors change over time, even with the same weapon during the same week. Sometimes the loss of body fat or dehydration will cause the shooter to inadvertently change his firing "lock" or stance.]

As you move from 500 yards down to the 300 yard line, etc. -- sometimes the "zero" is a click or two off, and mostly due to the fact that at 500 yards you were "off-hand" standing. At 300 yards you will fire kneeling and sitting, and this oftentimes causes a minor change in "Zero".

Back to the butts: Very quickly the recruit learns to identify a close sonic crack and thus knows that a round has passed through or near his/her target. Therefore [and to avoid a boot in the ass by the kindly Sgt.] the target frame is quickly hauled down, disced, and flagged. The next shot means that you will have available a paper patch and a bowl with brush, containing a foul smelling [and tasting] glue which is "boiled" from cow's hooves, without removing cowxxxx turds from same. You pull the disc, punch it into the new hole [if there is one] and "mosty-riky-tik" -- slap the glue and patch over the first hole.

Should the shooter be so unlucky as to miss the inside of the target, or the frame completely -- the butt-person raises aloft a long pole adorned with a bright red flag, which is gleefully wave to-and-fro in the most insulting fashion and seemingly screams: "...You missed...you stupid son-of-a-bitch..!!"

The red flag is called "Maggie's Drawers", and the shame-faced shooter is required to enter a "0"/MD in his log book -- that is: just as soon as the Drill Instructor has finished beating him about the head and shoulders.

A rifle scope is "bore-sighted". With a bolt action weapon, you pull the bolt out of the frame completely -- peer through the bore at your "zeroing" target, then shift your eyes to the scope and adjust same to the center of the target. A cheapo sight requires shimming, and this requires a gunsmith or talented range-master. With semi-auto rifle, you must use a "bore-scope", which is inserted into the chamber/magazine area and then used to center the bore on the target. Then the scope is adjusted.

Silencers/suppressors: Using low velocity ammunition in a pistol, rifle or sub-machine gun [bullet velocity less than mach-1] means that the only sound heard is the clacking of the bolt, and small sounds made by the extraction, ejection, and re-feeding of subsequent rounds. Dampening can be accomplished, such that: from 10 feet away; not a sound is heard !! For instance, the Ingram M-10 came in 2 calibres, a subsonic .45 auto, and a supersonic 9 mm. In the field ["Burbs or Bush"] we carried coded magazines of sub-sonic and sonic 9 mm; and the choice was made depending upon how close the targeted person was, or proximity of bystanders or other security threats.

A silenced high-powered rifle is NOT intended to be silent, but instead the tube causes any targets or bystanders, etc. to believe that the weapon is being fired from from a position at least 45 degrees off from actual site -- so everybody looks in the wrong direction !!

Anecdotes: While demonstrating a totally silenced .22 cal. rifle, and while my partner stood at least 50 feet away firing without a suppressed weapon -- I, slightly to the rear, of a group of El Salvador Colonels; shot past them into the head of a pig -- and when the bodyguards panicked at the blood and brain splatter, they looked to my partner, but were confused totally in that he had his back to the pig. Yet its head continued to disintegrate. They only wised up when I said: "Ahem...Mis Coroneles...notice the smoke from my silencer and the shell casings at my feet...truly it was I who destroyed the pig...!! Thereupon a Colonel and one bodyguard xxxx their pants, and we moved away from the stench "most riky-tik" !!

With Prez-General Somoza's half-brother ["Papa Chepe"] it was a similar demonstation. Only this time I had an M-11 (.380 cal.) inside our special attache-case model. Whilst Anselmito blazed away sans silencer in front of them, I emptied a full magazine out through the name-tag "gun-port" !! A minute later I pointed out that somebody must have noticed that a sand bag [45 degrees off] had been jumping around and disintegrating, and suddenly they were now curious as to what caused that. I placed the now open attache-case on the ground, and they slack-jawed gawked at the escaping smoke and the load of hulls inside the case. The bodyguards were fired on the spot, and jailed !!

With Mario Sandoval Alarcon it was near the Everglades just short of Krome Ave., near a small lake. Anselmito and "Rolandito" Masferrer fired M-10s [.45 cal.] "across-their-bows", as they marveled at the fact that they were only hearing the buzzing sounds of Bees or deer flies !!

At least 4 Secret Service Agents later claimed to have heard the Buzzing of bees in Dealey Plaza that tragic day !!

While setting up the DalTex hide-site for Oliver Stone, I got into a loud argument with both Dale Dye and Stanley White, specifically about the fact that when considering the presence of people on the fire escape and adjacent windows -- IF any shot was fired, a silenced weapon had to be used !! Capt. Dale Dye, USMC (Ret.) and Detective Sgt. Stanley White (L.A. County Sheriff's Dept.) loudly insisted that I was wrong and that nobody used silencers in 1963 -- and besides, they don't work on rifles !!

Stone listened as I explained that: OK, when short on silencers, a pro-operator will build a cardboard box, line it with empty egg cartons as inside sound proofing. and the muffling will give at least 75% silence and 45 degrees of diversion. [The box is designed to fold flat, and be carried under the arm]

As we continued arguing, and while leaving the 2nd floor, Oliver said: "...While nothing is carved in stone yet, we have to insure that Garrison was aware of this between 1966-1967...or forget about it...!!"

So much for Hollywood !!

GPH

_______________________

GPH and John,

Very interesting thread. There are isues when utilizing a supressor and subsonic ammunition in a rifle that will give the shot origin a realistic invisible existence but will also make the POA v. POI a near rediculous plan of action. Due to the compromised trajectory at even this close of range, it would take considerable practice and adjustments to the optics settings as well as the human factor on the moving target. I will comment further on this later.

GPH, I found it interesting that you have mentioned Sandoval-Alarcon in your thread. Am I misreading it when I assume you know my affiliation with his group some twenty-plus years ago? The last person on a forum who made the connection (Tosh on Lancer) stopped posting immediately thereafter. If I would have had the maturity I have now then, I would have eliminated the barbarian and his group then instead of providing a safety net for them from 2-400m back in '81. Maybe I am misreading your post. If not, provide the op-designation I was given then and I will know where we stand.

Al

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GPH and John,

Very interesting thread. There are isues when utilizing a supressor and subsonic ammunition in a rifle that will give the shot origin a realistic invisible existence but will also make the POA v. POI a near rediculous plan of action. Due to the compromised trajectory at even this close of range, it would take considerable practice and adjustments to the optics settings as well as the human factor on the moving target. I will comment further on this later.

GPH, I found it interesting that you have mentioned Sandoval-Alarcon in your thread. Am I misreading it when I assume you know my affiliation with his group some twenty-plus years ago? The last person on a forum who made the connection (Tosh on Lancer) stopped posting immediately thereafter. If I would have had the maturity I have now then, I would have eliminated the barbarian and his group then instead of providing a safety net for them from 2-400m back in '81. Maybe I am misreading your post. If not, provide the op-designation I was given then and I will know where we stand.

Al

Al, looking forward to it.

logging some more info. Apart from sightplane bore axis mostly complete sans corrections

So far::

RANGE CONDITIONS

The weather bureau recorded winds in Dallas on November 1963, as ranging only between 13 knots and 17 knots, which is roughly equal to 15 to 20 miles per hour.**

-Noon temperature.??

At 12:40 PM this sign displayed an ambient temperature of 65F [5 HSCA 643]. At this temperature the speed of sound in air is 1123 ft/sec.

-Pressure in Hg.?? est 30"

-Humidity %rel?? 60%

GUN / CARTRIDGE DATA (With MC in mind)

Bullet: 6.5 X 52 cartridge

-Ballistic coefficient. - approximately .275

-Sectional density.??

-Rifle:

Distance from sight plane to bore axis.??

Anmgle between bore axis and sight plane - estimated 0.8 degrees, estimated near zero 10.7 feet

(1 in 81/2" to 1 in 10" turn twist1 turn in7" twist)??

Gun/Lot :

-Muzzle velocity. - 2038fps (+/- ? ft/s)))?

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I wonder if the following has been considered?

FACTS:

a.) There are two large groupings of ear witnesses : TSBD and GK.

b.) There is one main grouping of ear witnesses : One shot, space, two closer spaced shots.

SPECULATION:

That the spacing b.) of the shots may differ across the two a.) groups in such a way that one could say that TSBD group indicates a longer or shorter space between the 'first' and 'second two' shots?

It seems to me that if the two sets of shots came from two different locations then whichever group reports a shorter interval between 'first' and 'second two' is closer to the first shot than to the 'second two'. Conversely whichever group reports a more even spacing is closer to the second two. This is a bit of a mind-wrench to me, perhaps someone with an acrobatic mind could consider if there is something worth persuing here.

------------------------------

John:

Lt. Carrier should be the guy that translates the technical stuff into layman's terms. However, I think that he stated that he was going to be very busy at work during the near term, and thus unavailable.

As I said before, I never had the patience to get into the "gunsmithing & engineering" side of shooting; I just kept my weapons in shape, and made sure that all necessary prepping was done in order that I hit what I was "aiming at" !!

During official shooting match competitions [both rifle and pistol], as opposed to "basic" or annual requalification -- there are mobile trailers & tents where one finds an assigned Master Gunsmith or two. These folks do repairs and minor modifications on our issued weapons. However, most, when on duty or during their free time, spend an ernormous amount of time designing, engineering, and radically modifying weapons. Many of these folks have gone commercial, and you can find their unique and very advanced firearms products in all hunting, fishing, adventure and shooting publications.

Especially in the case of Marine recruits, their first experience at seemingly getting "shot at' is when working the "Butts". These are the pits where guys and gals raise and lower the large wooden framed target holders. They stand and look up awaiting the appearance of a hole in their target.

It sometimes takes 15 minutes of slow fire [500 yards range] before the "Butt" troops learn that the sonic crack belongs to their target, and not the one on either side. Before that, a Sergeant running the Butts and manning a field telephone will be heard screaming "...pull the goddamn target on # 12, etc. !!"

Lo and befold, the recruit notices a little hole in the large paper target, inserts a 5 inch disc with a wooden peg through its center -- into the hole. The "Boot" now runs the target back up, and if the now marked hole is inside the target perimeter, raises a green disc on a long pole and centers it over the marking disc. That way, a shooter, even without a spotter scope can see whether he/she got a 5V or 5 "bullseye" or lesser scored shot -- which is then noted in the shooter's log book.

[The first page of the log book gives the initial "Zero" of the weapon, that is: when it was first fired while "sighting-in"; but sometimes the "zero" (measured in clicks of elevation and windage at 300 yards) will change as the "cheek weld", eye distance, etc. factors change over time, even with the same weapon during the same week. Sometimes the loss of body fat or dehydration will cause the shooter to inadvertently change his firing "lock" or stance.]

As you move from 500 yards down to the 300 yard line, etc. -- sometimes the "zero" is a click or two off, and mostly due to the fact that at 500 yards you were "off-hand" standing. At 300 yards you will fire kneeling and sitting, and this oftentimes causes a minor change in "Zero".

Back to the butts: Very quickly the recruit learns to identify a close sonic crack and thus knows that a round has passed through or near his/her target. Therefore [and to avoid a boot in the ass by the kindly Sgt.] the target frame is quickly hauled down, disced, and flagged. The next shot means that you will have available a paper patch and a bowl with brush, containing a foul smelling [and tasting] glue which is "boiled" from cow's hooves, without removing cowxxxx turds from same. You pull the disc, punch it into the new hole [if there is one] and "mosty-riky-tik" -- slap the glue and patch over the first hole.

Should the shooter be so unlucky as to miss the inside of the target, or the frame completely -- the butt-person raises aloft a long pole adorned with a bright red flag, which is gleefully wave to-and-fro in the most insulting fashion and seemingly screams: "...You missed...you stupid son-of-a-bitch..!!"

The red flag is called "Maggie's Drawers", and the shame-faced shooter is required to enter a "0"/MD in his log book -- that is: just as soon as the Drill Instructor has finished beating him about the head and shoulders.

A rifle scope is "bore-sighted". With a bolt action weapon, you pull the bolt out of the frame completely -- peer through the bore at your "zeroing" target, then shift your eyes to the scope and adjust same to the center of the target. A cheapo sight requires shimming, and this requires a gunsmith or talented range-master. With semi-auto rifle, you must use a "bore-scope", which is inserted into the chamber/magazine area and then used to center the bore on the target. Then the scope is adjusted.

Silencers/suppressors: Using low velocity ammunition in a pistol, rifle or sub-machine gun [bullet velocity less than mach-1] means that the only sound heard is the clacking of the bolt, and small sounds made by the extraction, ejection, and re-feeding of subsequent rounds. Dampening can be accomplished, such that: from 10 feet away; not a sound is heard !! For instance, the Ingram M-10 came in 2 calibres, a subsonic .45 auto, and a supersonic 9 mm. In the field ["Burbs or Bush"] we carried coded magazines of sub-sonic and sonic 9 mm; and the choice was made depending upon how close the targeted person was, or proximity of bystanders or other security threats.

A silenced high-powered rifle is NOT intended to be silent, but instead the tube causes any targets or bystanders, etc. to believe that the weapon is being fired from from a position at least 45 degrees off from actual site -- so everybody looks in the wrong direction !!

Anecdotes: While demonstrating a totally silenced .22 cal. rifle, and while my partner stood at least 50 feet away firing without a suppressed weapon -- I, slightly to the rear, of a group of El Salvador Colonels; shot past them into the head of a pig -- and when the bodyguards panicked at the blood and brain splatter, they looked to my partner, but were confused totally in that he had his back to the pig. Yet its head continued to disintegrate. They only wised up when I said: "Ahem...Mis Coroneles...notice the smoke from my silencer and the shell casings at my feet...truly it was I who destroyed the pig...!! Thereupon a Colonel and one bodyguard xxxx their pants, and we moved away from the stench "most riky-tik" !!

With Prez-General Somoza's half-brother ["Papa Chepe"] it was a similar demonstation. Only this time I had an M-11 (.380 cal.) inside our special attache-case model. Whilst Anselmito blazed away sans silencer in front of them, I emptied a full magazine out through the name-tag "gun-port" !! A minute later I pointed out that somebody must have noticed that a sand bag [45 degrees off] had been jumping around and disintegrating, and suddenly they were now curious as to what caused that. I placed the now open attache-case on the ground, and they slack-jawed gawked at the escaping smoke and the load of hulls inside the case. The bodyguards were fired on the spot, and jailed !!

With Mario Sandoval Alarcon it was near the Everglades just short of Krome Ave., near a small lake. Anselmito and "Rolandito" Masferrer fired M-10s [.45 cal.] "across-their-bows", as they marveled at the fact that they were only hearing the buzzing sounds of Bees or deer flies !!

At least 4 Secret Service Agents later claimed to have heard the Buzzing of bees in Dealey Plaza that tragic day !!

While setting up the DalTex hide-site for Oliver Stone, I got into a loud argument with both Dale Dye and Stanley White, specifically about the fact that when considering the presence of people on the fire escape and adjacent windows -- IF any shot was fired, a silenced weapon had to be used !! Capt. Dale Dye, USMC (Ret.) and Detective Sgt. Stanley White (L.A. County Sheriff's Dept.) loudly insisted that I was wrong and that nobody used silencers in 1963 -- and besides, they don't work on rifles !!

Stone listened as I explained that: OK, when short on silencers, a pro-operator will build a cardboard box, line it with empty egg cartons as inside sound proofing. and the muffling will give at least 75% silence and 45 degrees of diversion. [The box is designed to fold flat, and be carried under the arm]

As we continued arguing, and while leaving the 2nd floor, Oliver said: "...While nothing is carved in stone yet, we have to insure that Garrison was aware of this between 1966-1967...or forget about it...!!"

So much for Hollywood !!

GPH

_______________________

GPH and John,

Very interesting thread. There are isues when utilizing a supressor and subsonic ammunition in a rifle that will give the shot origin a realistic invisible existence but will also make the POA v. POI a near rediculous plan of action. Due to the compromised trajectory at even this close of range, it would take considerable practice and adjustments to the optics settings as well as the human factor on the moving target. I will comment further on this later.

GPH, I found it interesting that you have mentioned Sandoval-Alarcon in your thread. Am I misreading it when I assume you know my affiliation with his group some twenty-plus years ago? The last person on a forum who made the connection (Tosh on Lancer) stopped posting immediately thereafter. If I would have had the maturity I have now then, I would have eliminated the barbarian and his group then instead of providing a safety net for them from 2-400m back in '81. Maybe I am misreading your post. If not, provide the op-designation I was given then and I will know where we stand.

Al

-------------------------

Lt. Al C. I gotta dig through my boxes to make sure that what your now referring to has NARA/FOIA-PA stamps thereon, and with the proper dates & initials.

You were at the jump-street position for "Operation Alliance" -- but there are other S.G.G. numbers to peruse.

A retired BATF guy who stays in infrequent contact [HQ-Level] and wanted to do a book on my Ops vs: the "New Purple Gang", with specific reference to Mario's use of Frankie Viserto for silenced weapons. And moreover, for the outsourceing of "death squad" tasks to the end-purchasers of the Guatemala "Double-U-O-Globe / China White" which we had shut-down during 1975.

The assassination of Figueres, the Costa Rican Congress et al. carried the 1971 names of "OP /Coyote"; "Op / Cactus"; and "Op/ Bambu" !! Viserto did the deed that "O.J." was aquitted of -- and that specific slasher M.O. was his specialty !! [That and "BTK"]

More later,

GPH

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With regards to the pipe location.

This closeup indicates that the distance from wall to pipe centerline is almost exactly one brick length. As I as yet don't know early US brick sizes I can't put a dimension to it. However, it goes some way to reconstructing the space available in the 'snipers nest'.

EDIT:: Reply to Frank below: Thank you. Considering error margins I think that is sufficient for an accurate reconstruction. Barring other Dallas standards, it's possible to estimate window opening and location (relation to floor etc) from photos I have. One thing I have trouble finding is a west wall to pipe/west wall to window opening (brick opening wot the casement window opening dimension). The photos I have are not clear enough to be certain of brick numbers. It appears to be either 3, 3.5 or four bricks.

Edited by John Dolva
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With regards to the pipe location.

This closeup indicates that the distance from wall to pipe centerline is almost exactly one brick length. As I as yet don't know early US brick sizes I can't put a dimension to it. However, it goes some way to reconstructing the space available in the 'snipers nest'.

John,

I'm not an expert in bricks, but I happen to be in posession of quite a few of them having done some construction/renovation recently. The bricks I have are "pavers" which are commonly used for patios, driveways, etc.

The "paver" bricks I have are:

Long Side: 8 1/8 inches

Width: 3 7/8 inches

Height 2 1/4 inches.

I also have some brickwork on my house, and I confirmed my suspicions that the bricks are of slighly different sizes... The bricks used on my house are 1/4 inch shorter in each dimension making them:

Long side: 7 7/8"

Width: 3 5/8"

Height: 2"

My suspicion is that these figures will give you ballpark numbers to work with. However, there seems to be some variation and the only way to for sure would be for someone in Dallas to measure...

Regards,

Frank

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GPH and John,

Very interesting thread. There are isues when utilizing a supressor and subsonic ammunition in a rifle that will give the shot origin a realistic invisible existence but will also make the POA v. POI a near rediculous plan of action. Due to the compromised trajectory at even this close of range, it would take considerable practice and adjustments to the optics settings as well as the human factor on the moving target. I will comment further on this later.

GPH, I found it interesting that you have mentioned Sandoval-Alarcon in your thread. Am I misreading it when I assume you know my affiliation with his group some twenty-plus years ago? The last person on a forum who made the connection (Tosh on Lancer) stopped posting immediately thereafter. If I would have had the maturity I have now then, I would have eliminated the barbarian and his group then instead of providing a safety net for them from 2-400m back in '81. Maybe I am misreading your post. If not, provide the op-designation I was given then and I will know where we stand.

Al

-------------------------

Lt. Al C. I gotta dig through my boxes to make sure that what your now referring to has NARA/FOIA-PA stamps thereon, and with the proper dates & initials.

You were at the jump-street position for "Operation Alliance" -- but there are other S.G.G. numbers to peruse.

A retired BATF guy who stays in infrequent contact [HQ-Level] and wanted to do a book on my Ops vs: the "New Purple Gang", with specific reference to Mario's use of Frankie Viserto for silenced weapons. And moreover, for the outsourceing of "death squad" tasks to the end-purchasers of the Guatemala "Double-U-O-Globe / China White" which we had shut-down during 1975.

The assassination of Figueres, the Costa Rican Congress et al. carried the 1971 names of "OP /Coyote"; "Op / Cactus"; and "Op/ Bambu" !! Viserto did the deed that "O.J." was aquitted of -- and that specific slasher M.O. was his specialty !! [That and "BTK"]

More later,

GPH

____________________

GPH,

This was a FRAN/FRANg Ops and the docs have not been, and likely never will be released. This dealt with Op-Cortez during the latter half of '81.

Al

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I applaud the fact that Mr. Carrier and Mr. Hemming are engaging in civil discourse and each providing useful information! I am sure other members share the sentiment.

Tim, absolutely.

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I applaud the fact that Mr. Carrier and Mr. Hemming are engaging in civil discourse and each providing useful information! I am sure other members share the sentiment.

Tim, absolutely.

-----------------------------------

http://bastardsinc.blogs.com/bastardsinc/2...wlisle_com.html

.45 Delisle Commando Carbine

Developed by the Brits in WW2, the Delisle Commando Carbine weapon was designed to be a sentry killer. Essentially a silent rifle, it used the sub-sonic .45 ACP pistol round, and a large suppressor to virtually eliminate the sound of the weapon. Purpose designed, only 130 examples were made. The design has been copied numerous times, and the weapon on the left is DVC Armaments modern version of the old warhorse.

Specifications (old)

Cartridge: .45 ACP

Length : 960mm (37.80in)

Weight: 3.70kg (8lb 2oz)

Barrel Length: 210mm (8.27in)

Rifleing: 4 grooves lh

Feed: 8 round removable box magazine

In production: 1942-1945

Markings:Maker, date and SHT LE on right side of stock band

Safety:Manual safety catch on left of action. Press forward to fire and rearward for safe

The remake of the Delisle is known as the 45 Terminator, and rightly so. DVC Armaments have created a fine piece of weaponry, and the carbine is also available in numerous other pistol calibres, namely 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 9mm Parabellum and .38 Super. Accuracy wouldn't be a factor, as the weapon could be modified to accept laser sighting systems, with range easily achievable out to 100 metres. And face it, when you take that sentry down you are probably going to be a little closer than that. I believe that the HK MP5SD is probably the better weapon, but hey, this thing looks so damn COOL!

Nice cat remover, don't you think?

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 in Shooting Stuff | Permalink

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