Some Ballistics questions

[John Dolva]

I applaud the fact that Mr. Carrier and Mr. Hemming are engaging in civil discourse and each providing useful information! I am sure other members share the sentiment.

Tim, absolutely.

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http://bastardsinc.blogs.com/bastardsinc/2...wlisle_com.html

.45 Delisle Commando Carbine

Developed by the Brits in WW2, the Delisle Commando Carbine weapon was designed to be a sentry killer. Essentially a silent rifle, it used the sub-sonic .45 ACP pistol round, and a large suppressor to virtually eliminate the sound of the weapon. Purpose designed, only 130 examples were made. The design has been copied numerous times, and the weapon on the left is DVC Armaments modern version of the old warhorse.

Specifications (old)

Cartridge: .45 ACP

Length : 960mm (37.80in)

Weight: 3.70kg (8lb 2oz)

Barrel Length: 210mm (8.27in)

Rifleing: 4 grooves lh

Feed: 8 round removable box magazine

In production: 1942-1945

Markings:Maker, date and SHT LE on right side of stock band

Safety:Manual safety catch on left of action. Press forward to fire and rearward for safe

The remake of the Delisle is known as the 45 Terminator, and rightly so. DVC Armaments have created a fine piece of weaponry, and the carbine is also available in numerous other pistol calibres, namely 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 9mm Parabellum and .38 Super. Accuracy wouldn't be a factor, as the weapon could be modified to accept laser sighting systems, with range easily achievable out to 100 metres. And face it, when you take that sentry down you are probably going to be a little closer than that. I believe that the HK MP5SD is probably the better weapon, but hey, this thing looks so damn COOL!

Nice cat remover, don't you think?

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 in Shooting Stuff | Permalink

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GPH

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Looking at this and other posts it seems the technology for reasonably accurate silenced guns (could this terminator be classified as some kind of Pistol?) was not lacking in 63. Up to 300 feet in this instance. I assume the accuracy starts to decrease before 100 meters?

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based on the following I think I can say with reasonable certainty that the edge of the brickwork on the window opening is 3 1/2 bricks plus mortar x 4, say about < 2"?

Edited November 20, 2005 by John Dolva

[Al Carrier]

Looking at this and other posts it seems the technology for reasonably accurate silenced guns (could this terminator be classified as some kind of Pistol?) was not lacking in 63. Up to 300 feet in this instance. I assume the accuracy starts to decrease before 100 meters?

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John,

Where many seem to misunderstand in the DP Shooting of JFK is that they see the shot as being fairly simple due to range from origin to target. What most fail to understand, as they cannot put themselves in the shooters place, is that the shot(s) were at a higher level of difficulty due to the fact that it was on a moving target that varied in angle, speed and elevation. If you put the latter into perspective with close range, it becomes even more difficult on shot origins such as the north knoll when the angle is extreme, or the TSBD when the elevation factor becomes a hurdle for even accomplished shooters.

Then we are dealing with factors in this thread that deal with shot origin concealment such as suppressors and subsonic ammunition. A suppressor will conceal the shot of a rifle or pistol caliber projectile quite well with a closed chamber weapon such as a bolt action rifle or revolver handgun. If the projectile is above the range of 900fps, it does nothing to suppress the shockwave of the bullet in flight. Then we have to deal with subsonic ammunition. When viewing the head wound, subsonic ammunition is not acceptable for this incident, as the impact shows a much higher velocity projectile upon impact and through the wound channel. To believe shooters would compromise their accuracy rate to shoot something in the range of less than 900fps at the president, is rediculous. Even utilization of suppressors for what is would be worth would compromise the flight trajectory of the bullet as it does slow it down. The shooter would have to train with the suppressor in order to make his shot of point of aim to point of impact. With the moving target and varying speeds and elevation, a shot off by a few inches could produce failure.

To be realistic about how such a triangulation of fire was covered up, it is much more realistic to believe that the shooters fired in concert by keying off the original shot origin (TSBD), which would be difficult for even experienced ear witnesses to pick out the follow-up shots. I have referred to this time and again here and on Lancer as a "Canyon Shoot" procedure that was and is trained by the military, dating back now some sixty-plus years. It deals with the follow-up shots being keyed by a startle reaction from the other shooters. It gives away the original position and covers the others, leaving the primary positions unexposed and confusion as to the number of shots.

Al