LHO in Doorway

[Ron Ecker]

FWIW at least 6 people, according to their statements, were standing on the top step of the TSBD entrance at the time of the shooting. The 6 were Billy Lovelady, William Shelley, Sarah Stanton, Joe Molina, Otis Williams, and Pauline Sanders.

Also, it's interesting to note the man in the white suit in the center of the Couch frame that Robin posted showing Baker. Just a day or so ago I read someone's statement about seeing a man in a white suit run somewhere during the commotion. I can't remember now whose statement it was. I had never heard of White Suit Man before, and voila! there he is in Couch.

[Tim Gratz]

Ron, do you know whether these people were questioned re whether they saw Oswald in the doorway?

Despite Mark's most interesting post, I tend to think he was in the second floor lunchroom.

[Ron Ecker]

Tim,

Molina, Williams, Stanton, and Sanders stated that they did not see LHO at all on 11/22. Lovelady said the last time he saw him was on the 6th floor that morning when LHO asked him where a book was stored. Shelley said that he did not see LHO after about 11:50 am when he was filling orders on the 1st floor.

Ron

[Tim Gratz]

Thank you, Ron. I assume you do not believe Oswald was in the doorway?

Moreover, if he was being set up as a patsy, one would think the conspirators would ensure he was not with a bunch of witnesses at a place he could be photographed! So whether shooter or patsy, it seems logically unlikely that he was in the doorway.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Ron Ecker]

I assume you do not believe Oswald was in the doorway?

You are correct. I do not believe that Lovelady and the 5 other employees with him on the top step were involved in the plot to frame Oswald by making false statements to the FBI.

[John Dolva]

There is a possibility that assumptions are made that may not be appropriate.

IF one rotates the images so they correspond with correct vertical-horizontal. AND bears in mind that altgens and wiegamns photos were taken from a different altitude and angle.

Then : if one marks the top of 'oswalds' head and the hands of the person next to him on the altgens, and then copies and stretches this image to correspond with the vertical separation of these two points on the wiegman one finds that the supposed alteration corresponds with the 'newspaper' the woman at y is shading herself with. And the black hair with the woman standing below right of man with raised arm.

Likewise lines extended from the points at the w figure where they coincide with the altegen locations in the direction of altgens, one finds that all the figures can be explained by figures located spread out along elm.

Lee, the figure '?' is interesting.

Edited November 4, 2005 by John Dolva

[Bernice Moore]

Just a thought...

...if Oswald was firing a rifle from the 6th floor , how did he know that Bill Shelley was standing in front of the building? He obviously couldn't see him from the 6th floor...so if Oswald couldn't see him, how did he know Shelley was there, to claim to have been standing with him? And it's not as if Oswald got to look at any of the photographic evidence before he was questioned by Fritz.

So how did he know who to claim he was standing with, and where...if he was the 6th-floor shooter?

Sometimes it's those damn trees that hide the forest, isn't it?

*******************************************

Mark, that is a very good observation, and I believe this is another of those darn trees....

When LHO was sitting on the first floor having his lunch, Jarman according to his own

testimony, along with Norman, went out the front entrance of the TSBD, I believe this

was also noted by Shelley,perhaps others ?

They then proceeded to the corner of Houston St, turned left and walked down the side of

the TSBD building,and around to the back,and re-entered the building by the rear door...

..LHO noticed them and mentioned this fact.

Jarman and Norman then went upstairs to the fifth floor..and joined Williams,

to watch the motorcade.

If LHO was on the sixth floor, preparing all for the assassination, he would not have

seen the activity of Jarman and Norm and their re-entering by the back door...LHO never

had the oppotunity to see anyof the statements either..

B..

[Robin Unger]

FWIW at least 6 people, according to their statements, were standing on the top step of the TSBD entrance at the time of the shooting. The 6 were Billy Lovelady, William Shelley, Sarah Stanton, Joe Molina, Otis Williams, and Pauline Sanders.

Also, it's interesting to note the man in the white suit in the center of the Couch frame that Robin posted showing Baker. Just a day or so ago I read someone's statement about seeing a man in a white suit run somewhere during the commotion. I can't remember now whose statement it was. I had never heard of White Suit Man before, and voila! there he is in Couch.

[John Dolva]

FWIW at least 6 people, according to their statements, were standing on the top step of the TSBD entrance at the time of the shooting. The 6 were Billy Lovelady, William Shelley, Sarah Stanton, Joe Molina, Otis Williams, and Pauline Sanders.

Also, it's interesting to note the man in the white suit in the center of the Couch frame that Robin posted showing Baker. Just a day or so ago I read someone's statement about seeing a man in a white suit run somewhere during the commotion. I can't remember now whose statement it was. I had never heard of White Suit Man before, and voila! there he is in Couch.

Ok, no 'newspaper'. Still, the principle. Robin can you provide a link or something to these good images in toto? It gets really frustrating wasting time with poor quality stuff. That goes for much.

Edited November 4, 2005 by John Dolva

[Robin Unger]

FWIW at least 6 people, according to their statements, were standing on the top step of the TSBD entrance at the time of the shooting. The 6 were Billy Lovelady, William Shelley, Sarah Stanton, Joe Molina, Otis Williams, and Pauline Sanders.

Also, it's interesting to note the man in the white suit in the center of the Couch frame that Robin posted showing Baker. Just a day or so ago I read someone's statement about seeing a man in a white suit run somewhere during the commotion. I can't remember now whose statement it was. I had never heard of White Suit Man before, and voila! there he is in Couch.

Ok, no 'newspaper'. Still, the principle. Robin can you provide a link or something to these good images in toto? It gets really frustrating wasting time with poor quality stuff. That goes for much.

John.

I only have a few of the high quality frames.

I saved them from Lancer forum, they were posted by Denis Morissette.

Here is a link to some of his pics.

Pics Here:

[Ron Ecker]

Robin,

Thanks for the second image of the man in white. Looks like he's wearing a jacket, not a suit. Whoever he was, I guess he's one of the many witnesses who was never interviewed.

Ron

[Richard J. Smith]

You trust the Warren Commission Report?

I really do not think that it is very credible to rely on the Warren Commission report, to "debunk" the very real possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was photographed witnessing the Kennedy assassination.

Lynne,

I believe the Warren Report is full of excellent information and should not be dismissed. Do you really think every witness lied, or every document is false? The WCR is one of the best sources FOR a conspiracy I know of. It's their conclusion I don't agree with.

Regarding "debunking" the "real possibility" that LHO was photographed standing on the steps, you must think that Billy Lovelady committed perjury. If you read his testimony, HE drew the arrow pointing to himself in the photo when asked to identify where he was. He's given many interviews over the years, and was photographed with the now famous red checkered shirt. There is no "real possibility". There is only speculation, innuendo, and supposition. Time for a reality check.

Do you realize it's this kind of thing that makes CTs look like a bunch of loonies? Geez, just jump at anything no matter how far out. It WAS Billy Lovelady in the doorway of the TSBD. What anyone believes about the Warren Report is immaterial.

RJS

[Lynne Foster]

You trust the Warren Commission Report?

I really do not think that it is very credible to rely on the Warren Commission report, to "debunk" the very real possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was photographed witnessing the Kennedy assassination.

Lynne,

I believe the Warren Report is full of excellent information and should not be dismissed. Do you really think every witness lied, or every document is false? The WCR is one of the best sources FOR a conspiracy I know of. It's their conclusion I don't agree with.

Regarding "debunking" the "real possibility" that LHO was photographed standing on the steps, you must think that Billy Lovelady committed perjury. If you read his testimony, HE drew the arrow pointing to himself in the photo when asked to identify where he was. He's given many interviews over the years, and was photographed with the now famous red checkered shirt. There is no "real possibility". There is only speculation, innuendo, and supposition. Time for a reality check.

Do you realize it's this kind of thing that makes CTs look like a bunch of loonies? Geez, just jump at anything no matter how far out. It WAS Billy Lovelady in the doorway of the TSBD. What anyone believes about the Warren Report is immaterial.

RJS

You make it sound as if everybody who testifies in a court of law tells the truth.

In this case, I don't think that the prospect of being charged with perjury is even relevant. Lee Harvey Oswald was murdered to place him on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository and you actually think that Lovelady was in a position to tell the truth? Not quite.

Lovelady was there to support Warren Report conclusions. Period.

Now if Lee Harvey Oswald was alive, he would place the arrow exactly where Lovelady placed his, and he would say, "What's Lovelady's mugshot doing on my body?"

Clearly, to believe Lovelady's coached testimony you would also have to believe that he and Lee Harvey Oswald wore the same clothes, on November 22nd, 1963 and that is not the case.

Lovelady pointed exactly where the Warren Commision wanted him to point, and Oswald would have done the very same thing if Jack Ruby had not pointed a gun at him.

Like I said, the only "POINT" of the Warren Commission is to mislead, and when you understand that, you will understand the fact that it was clearly Oswald in the doorway.

[Mark Knight]

I believe that Mr. Gratz misunderstands my point...yet again.

I also believe that Oswald was in the second-floor lunchroom, rather than being either on the sixth floor OR on the front steps of the TSBD. My argument was to make the point that, unless Oswald WAS in the proximity of the lower floors, he'd have no idea just who was standing on the front steps. While en route to the lunchroom, he may have walked out to the front steps momentarily and noticed who was there...or he may have witnessed Shelley and others walking in that general direction, and made the assumption as to their ultimate destination, as he was making his way to the lunchroom.

But Oswald would have had NO way of knowing who was on the front steps while he was allegedly on the sixth floor.

It's those damn trees again...

[Ron Ecker]

Mark,

Oswald could have heard his boss Shelley tell or remind employees that morning to be out front if they wanted to see JFK. (Shelley specifically remembered seeing Oswald on the first floor about 11:50 am, and could have said something then.) Oswald could thus safely assume that Shelley went out front with others.

BTW, for those interested, the statements of TSBD employees are in CE1381, beginning at 22H632.

Ron