LHO in Doorway

[Mark Stapleton]

I think what's more important is what LHO did in the next forty minutes.

I don't believe the stuff about bus and cab rides. Roger Craig saw him run down the embankment and jump into a Nash Rambler and I believe him.

[Ron Ecker]

I don't believe the stuff about bus and cab rides. Roger Craig saw him run down the embankment and jump into a Nash Rambler and I believe him.

It seems to me that Oswald's escape would have involved better planning than that. How would the conspirators know that after shooting JFK on Elm Street, the street would promptly be reopened to traffic, so Oswald could come out and be picked up on Elm?

I believe Craig also said he heard the man whistle for the Rambler, as if saying, "Hey, don't forget me!"

It just strikes me as a haphazard way of getting away, unless, of course, Oswald wasn't supposed to get away but to be shot in the building.

[Lynne Foster]

"...unless, of course, Oswald wasn't supposed to get away but to be shot in the building."

Did Jim Garrison say anything about thispossibility?

[Ron Ecker]

"...unless, of course, Oswald wasn't supposed to get away but to be shot in the building."

Did Jim Garrison say anything about thispossibility?

I don't have the slightest idea. BTW I'm joining the club that will no longer respond to your posts.

[Thomas Graves]

I don't believe the stuff about bus and cab rides. Roger Craig saw him run down the embankment and jump into a Nash Rambler and I believe him.

It seems to me that Oswald's escape would have involved better planning than that. How would the conspirators know that after shooting JFK on Elm Street, the street would promptly be reopened to traffic, so Oswald could come out and be picked up on Elm?

I believe Craig also said he heard the man whistle for the Rambler, as if saying, "Hey, don't forget me!"

It just strikes me as a haphazard way of getting away, unless, of course, Oswald wasn't supposed to get away but to be shot in the building.

Hi Mark and Ron,

I know that this is probably a silly question, but I wonder if anyone knows whether or not the real LHO could even whistle like that........

FWIW, Thomas

[Ron Ecker]

Thomas,

It's not a dumb question, I've wondered that too, but there's no way to know. I know that I can't whistle that way, so I doubt that it's a rare inability.

Ron

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas,

It's not a dumb question, I've wondered that too, but there's no way to know. I know that I can't whistle that way, so I doubt that it's a rare inability.

Ron

Ron,

Whew!! Thanks for saying that. I can't whistle like that either!!! (Please don't tell anyone.) But I CAN skip a stone pretty darn far across a lake!

FWIW, Thomas

[Mark Stapleton]

I don't believe the stuff about bus and cab rides. Roger Craig saw him run down the embankment and jump into a Nash Rambler and I believe him.

It seems to me that Oswald's escape would have involved better planning than that. How would the conspirators know that after shooting JFK on Elm Street, the street would promptly be reopened to traffic, so Oswald could come out and be picked up on Elm?

I believe Craig also said he heard the man whistle for the Rambler, as if saying, "Hey, don't forget me!"

It just strikes me as a haphazard way of getting away, unless, of course, Oswald wasn't supposed to get away but to be shot in the building.

Hi Mark and Ron,

I know that this is probably a silly question, but I wonder if anyone knows whether or not the real LHO could even whistle like that........

FWIW, Thomas

Thomas,

Like Ron, I can't whistle like that either though not from lack of trying. My 16 year old son can do that two finger whistle so loud birds fly out of trees. I'm so lame.

Your question is an interesting one, though. I wonder if Marina has ever been asked.

Ron, when you suggest LHO was supposed to be shot in the TSBD, do you mean by the cops?

[Ron Ecker]

Mark,

It has been suggested that it was officer Baker's job to eliminate Oswald when Baker rushed into the TSBD while everyone else didn't know what to do. Baker didn't shoot Oswald because Truly screwed things up by being present at the lunchroom encounter.

Trouble is, if the plan was for Baker to shoot Oswald, why would the patsy Oswald have been told to be standing calm and unarmed in the lunchroom, trying to decide between a Coke and a Dr. Pepper. He should have been acting in some manner to justify being shot, such as at least being armed, though he wouldn't know the purpose of this, being compartmentalized unto death.

Also, if Baker was assigned to go into the TSBD and shoot Oswald, he would certainly get some idea beforehand about where to go in the building and not stop, ask for directions, and have Truly tag along.

I suppose that Baker could have claimed that he simply shot the assassin by mistake when he saw him reach for a Coke. But shooting a patsy is one thing, losing your job on the police force is something else.

Ron

[Gerry Hemming]

I don't believe the stuff about bus and cab rides. Roger Craig saw him run down the embankment and jump into a Nash Rambler and I believe him.

It seems to me that Oswald's escape would have involved better planning than that. How would the conspirators know that after shooting JFK on Elm Street, the street would promptly be reopened to traffic, so Oswald could come out and be picked up on Elm?

I believe Craig also said he heard the man whistle for the Rambler, as if saying, "Hey, don't forget me!"

It just strikes me as a haphazard way of getting away, unless, of course, Oswald wasn't supposed to get away but to be shot in the building.

Hi Mark and Ron,

I know that this is probably a silly question, but I wonder if anyone knows whether or not the real LHO could even whistle like that........

FWIW, Thomas

Thomas,

Like Ron, I can't whistle like that either though not from lack of trying. My 16 year old son can do that two finger whistle so loud birds fly out of trees. I'm so lame.

Your question is an interesting one, though. I wonder if Marina has ever been asked.

Ron, when you suggest LHO was supposed to be shot in the TSBD, do you mean by the cops?

-------------------------------

Years ago, I spent hours on the telephone with some kind of DP, LHO, Nash Rambler "expert?".

I related to him that H. K. Davis had loaned his old Rambler to Dick Whatley and Bobby Willis for their trip to California, and then on to Mexico and British Honduras [belize]. The FBI/CIA 'flap" documents as to the stolen CIA .45 Colt automatic & the CIA "00" Office [Los Angeles - Overt] and the Temple City L.A. Sheriff's substation investigation into the punk who stole said pistol from Dick's rucksack occurred just after their arrival in Alhambra, CA. [January 1962]

Three weeks later, long after crossing the Mexico "frontier/migra" station, they encountered a shanty "mordida" 4 man checkpoint. Various weapons [including my old Schmeisser MP-40, now "Tefloned green"] were wired up under the chassis of the ramber.

Refusing to pay the $20 bribe, a detailed search of the station-wagon commenced. The next spid move by these clowns was to make a run for it -- but a few bullets into the radiator quickly stopped the fleeing Gringos.

They spent 6+ months in the same prison with Joel Kaplan, failed in two escape attempts...yadda, yadda !!

Davy had immediately reported the Rambler as stolen upon learning of their arrests.

I called General Walker in Dallas, and around August he convinced both the "Chili-Belly Beaners" and "Fairy" Hoover's minions that both would serve more time stateside under the "Hobbs Act" [10 years] than

under the weak weapons charge [no trial yet] in Mexico.

I had Walker send them money to bribe the warden, and they were driven to the U.S. Border and handed over to the FBI. Bob Dwyer[MIA/FO Div-9 ASAC] -- bursting with laughter, called Davy's house and asked

whether we were going to "Testi-Lie" against these horse-thieving/car-rustling scalawag miscreants ??!!

Davy responded -- "...What solen Rambler ?? Once we found out it was stolen from them as a loaner...we forgot to give you a call !!" We hear that they are in Texas now ??"

Whatley and Willis got some more buck$ from Walker, and they arrived at No Name Key a few days later.

The Rambler was hauled to an impound yard on Meachum Field [Airport] 14 miles west of Dallas, and remained there until it disappeared during November 1963.

Nothing "NEW" here -- back to C-SPAN,

GPH

___________________________

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark,

It has been suggested that it was officer Baker's job to eliminate Oswald when Baker rushed into the TSBD while everyone else didn't know what to do. Baker didn't shoot Oswald because Truly screwed things up by being present at the lunchroom encounter.

Trouble is, if the plan was for Baker to shoot Oswald, why would the patsy Oswald have been told to be standing calm and unarmed in the lunchroom, trying to decide between a Coke and a Dr. Pepper. He should have been acting in some manner to justify being shot, such as at least being armed, though he wouldn't know the purpose of this, being compartmentalized unto death.

Also, if Baker was assigned to go into the TSBD and shoot Oswald, he would certainly get some idea beforehand about where to go in the building and not stop, ask for directions, and have Truly tag along.

I suppose that Baker could have claimed that he simply shot the assassin by mistake when he saw him reach for a Coke. But shooting a patsy is one thing, losing your job on the police force is something else.

Ron

Hmm.. not sure about that one. I haven't ever heard of Marion Baker's background being questionable.

If shooting LHO in the building is eliminated from the scenario that leaves luring him to the Texas Theatre for execution, getting JD Tippit to shoot him or allowing him to escape to Cuba or Mexico as the only three possibilities left standing, IMO.

I think giving him a lift home in the Rambler is a slightly more secure plan than letting him leave the scene under his own steam but since they had him framed up anyway it probably doesn't matter.

Of those three possibilities I don't like the third one because the first two provide quick and decisive outcomes from which the conspirators can move on to the next phase of the coverup. Allowing him to flee the country means he's still alive, however temporarily, and able to give voice to the injustice of his new circumstances and possibly mention a few names. That brings it down to two.

I tend to think the plan called for him to be shot in the theatre as its more secure than leaving the task to a lone cop. Maybe having Tippet on standby was a backup plan in case Oswald didn't show up at the theatre. Question is, was Tippett's death a genuine bungle or was it staged to reinforce the facade of a desperate criminal on the run? Either way, his execution at the theatre was bungled so we at least have the satisfaction of knowing the conspirators probably developed ulcers from worry over that weekend.

[John Dolva]

Mark,

It has been suggested that it was officer Baker's job to eliminate Oswald when Baker rushed into the TSBD while everyone else didn't know what to do. Baker didn't shoot Oswald because Truly screwed things up by being present at the lunchroom encounter.

Trouble is, if the plan was for Baker to shoot Oswald, why would the patsy Oswald have been told to be standing calm and unarmed in the lunchroom, trying to decide between a Coke and a Dr. Pepper. He should have been acting in some manner to justify being shot, such as at least being armed, though he wouldn't know the purpose of this, being compartmentalized unto death.

Also, if Baker was assigned to go into the TSBD and shoot Oswald, he would certainly get some idea beforehand about where to go in the building and not stop, ask for directions, and have Truly tag along.

I suppose that Baker could have claimed that he simply shot the assassin by mistake when he saw him reach for a Coke. But shooting a patsy is one thing, losing your job on the police force is something else.

Ron

Hmm.. not sure about that one. I haven't ever heard of Marion Baker's background being questionable.

If shooting LHO in the building is eliminated from the scenario that leaves luring him to the Texas Theatre for execution, getting JD Tippit to shoot him or allowing him to escape to Cuba or Mexico as the only three possibilities left standing, IMO.

I think giving him a lift home in the Rambler is a slightly more secure plan than letting him leave the scene under his own steam but since they had him framed up anyway it probably doesn't matter.

Of those three possibilities I don't like the third one because the first two provide quick and decisive outcomes from which the conspirators can move on to the next phase of the coverup. Allowing him to flee the country means he's still alive, however temporarily, and able to give voice to the injustice of his new circumstances and possibly mention a few names. That brings it down to two.

I tend to think the plan called for him to be shot in the theatre as its more secure than leaving the task to a lone cop. Maybe having Tippet on standby was a backup plan in case Oswald didn't show up at the theatre. Question is, was Tippett's death a genuine bungle or was it staged to reinforce the facade of a desperate criminal on the run? Either way, his execution at the theatre was bungled so we at least have the satisfaction of knowing the conspirators probably developed ulcers from worry over that weekend.

some alternate thoughts:

To have Oswald shot discreetly would enforce concept of conspiracy, therefore it would always have an element of chance. If one assumes the Baker bent, there could have been at least four attempts on Oswald.

Baker (no evidence?),

Tippit (witnesses, unsuccessful, possible setup of an Oswald elsewhere),

Theatre, (witnesses, press, he did get a whack on the head with the imprint of which looks like a rifle butt to the temple, could be fatal),

and then prior to leaving hands of DPD into freer talk environment: Ruby, 'unstable', 'drugged up', millions of witnesses.

Trying to survive and get to the next level is a bit of an art. Feints and slips. He could choose route, place, environ of arrest, but not to not be in the basement. Handcuffed led by police with grips on arm: no more options. Just as freedom from the conspirators beckons?

Had Harry not been at the interview Oswald may have got to the next level? What then?

A trial would be his hope, talk to lawyers, RFK men, Independent Press.

[Tim Carroll]

Years ago, I spent hours on the telephone with some kind of DP, LHO, Nash Rambler "expert?" I related to him that H. K. Davis had loaned his old Rambler to Dick Whatley and Bobby Willis for their trip to California, and then on to Mexico and British Honduras [belize].... Three weeks later, long after crossing the Mexico "frontier/migra" station, they encountered a shanty "mordida" 4 man checkpoint. Various weapons [including my old Schmeisser MP-40, now "Tefloned green"] were wired up under the chassis of the ramber. Refusing to pay the $20 bribe, a detailed search of the station-wagon commenced. The next spid move by these clowns was to make a run for it -- but a few bullets into the radiator quickly stopped the fleeing Gringos. They spent 6+ months in the same prison with Joel Kaplan, failed in two escape attempts...yadda, yadda !! Davy had immediately reported the Rambler as stolen upon learning of their arrests.

I called General Walker in Dallas, and around August he convinced both the "Chili-Belly Beaners" and "Fairy" Hoover's minions that both would serve more time stateside under the "Hobbs Act" [10 years] than

under the weak weapons charge [no trial yet] in Mexico. I had Walker send them money to bribe the warden, and they were driven to the U.S. Border and handed over to the FBI. Bob Dwyer[MIA/FO Div-9 ASAC] -- bursting with laughter, called Davy's house and asked whether we were going to "Testi-Lie" against these horse-thieving/car-rustling scalawag miscreants ??!!

Davy responded -- "...What solen Rambler ?? Once we found out it was stolen from them as a loaner...we forgot to give you a call !!" We hear that they are in Texas now ??" Whatley and Willis got some more buck$ from Walker, and they arrived at No Name Key a few days later. The Rambler was hauled to an impound yard on Meachum Field [Airport] 14 miles west of Dallas, and remained there until it disappeared during November 1963.

Jay Harrison had the Rambler in his possession for a number of years. Here's a photo of it the day it was moved to a farm last year:

Numerous photos were taken of it, including the Mexico stamp on the windshield. Jay Harrison also had a DPD ticket that was issued to the Rambler in Dallas in early 1963. The VIN numbers matched. This was all documented and the car was stored in Austin, Texas for over twenty years.

T.C.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

Tim, I think that it beats a 1957 Chevrolet any day!

I had once thought of trying to research old Florida Motor Vehicle recorrds re any vehicles registered to Mr. Davis.

[Tim Carroll]

...H. K. Davis had loaned his old Rambler to Dick Whatley and Bobby Willis for their trip to California, and then on to Mexico and British Honduras [belize].... Three weeks later, long after crossing the Mexico "frontier/migra" station, they encountered a shanty "mordida" 4 man checkpoint. Various weapons [including my old Schmeisser MP-40, now "Tefloned green"] were wired up under the chassis of the ramber. Refusing to pay the $20 bribe, a detailed search of the station-wagon commenced. The next spid move by these clowns was to make a run for it -- but a few bullets into the radiator quickly stopped the fleeing Gringos.

This must be a different Nash Rambler than the one mentioned by Gerry Hemming; this one has no bullet holes in the grill or signs of any shootout.

T.C.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Tim Carroll