Bashing Garrison and Joan Mellen's book

[Thomas H. Purvis]

While I certainly have no objection to accepting this (it seems to fit in with the Shaw timeline), I have only your word to go on here. How Shaw's files became boxed with "I.G. Farbin" and how you found this out I don't know. How this would help in making Clay Shaw look like a spook is also a mystery, since no one prior to you ever brought this "Art Recovery" stuff up. As for Clay Shaw being a mere C.I.A. informant, Mellen has shattered this myth with actual C.I.A. documents which she quotes and cites. But of course, that pales next to your high standards (typically insinuation and innuendo).

I really am not up to digging through an entire shed of "stuff" just to locate the source materials which I long ago put away in the "dead" file for the Clay Shaw/Garrison fiasco.

The "Art Recovery" aspect has been a common "rumor" in the New Orleans area for many years. It merely needed some digging to confirm or negate.

As to Clay Shaw receiving expenses and "allowances" from the CIA, this too is a fairly well established fact.

Which, by the way, is what they frequently do for "informants".

Does this negate all possibility that Shaw was some form of permanent CIA???----Absolutely not.

Just not too likely with his "sexual" preferences, which leaves one open to considerable compromise.

Might I therefore recommend that you accept and believe NO ONE, and thereafter search for and find the facts and truth for youself.

Perhaps then, you may place some credence in what is found.

[Owen Parsons]

You show your ignorance of the material. As an example, Shaw was cleared for CIA project QKENCHANT, an "operational" project. In addition to this, Mellen ties in both the International Trade Mart and PERMINDEX with the CIA. Mellen does not go into "expenses and 'allowances.'"

I find it strange that, despite all I have heard about Shaw's alleged O.S.S. connections, I have seen no one but you bring the "Art Recovery" stuff up. Unusual if this was a "common 'rumor.'"

Edited November 12, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Thomas H. Purvis]

You show your ignorance of the material. As an example, Shaw was cleared for CIA project QKENCHANT, an "operational" project. In addition to this, Mellen ties in both the International Trade Mart and PERMINDEX with the CIA. Mellen does not go into "expenses and 'allowances.'"

As stated: The Clay Shaw/Garrison fiasco was placed into the "dead" file long ago.

And, there has been nothing new to demonstrate that a second resurrection is called for.

Tom

P.S. "Cleared" has many and varied meanings, depending upon how utilized and in what capacity one is "cleared" for.

I was once "cleared" for TS Crypto. Does not mean that I could just walk around looking at all of the TS Crypto data in existence.

It meant that I was "cleared" to receive certain information strictly on a "NEED TO KNOW" basis.

If I had no "need to know" then I was not told "jack Sh**"

But then again, with all of your "covert ops " & "spook" experience, I am certain that you knew all this.

[Owen Parsons]

You are building a straw man. I never said Shaw knew everything, as you seem to be implying. This is beside the point, in any case. The point is that being cleared for an operational project is quite a bit above and beyond being a mere contact.

And yes, I did know what "need to know" is, thank you. You can stop being condescending any time you feel like it.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Tim Gratz]

Dawn wrote:

Gratz, misrepresenting what she wrote, refusing to answer questions, twisting what others write . . .

I never misrepresented what Mellen wrote.

Nor do I believe I have twisted what others said.

Garrison bashers believe he made ridiculous and unsupported charges.

So why don't you prove that is not true of YOU by being specific, Dawn.

[Tim Gratz]

Dawn wrote:

I have been on this forum for over a year now and very little has been said about Jim Garrison until just recently. I find it more than a little coincidental that with the release of Joan Mellen's long anticipated Garrison bio, suddenly we have several posters of questionable character, all eager to trash Garrison at every opportunity. An attempt to undermine Ms Mellen's work?

Gratz, misrepresenting what she wrote, refusing to answer questions, twisting what others write, the usual with the ex- attorney. Suddenly, the arrival of Ms Foster, chiming in from Canada, that in HER opinion Garrison only tried to undermine the investigation, and further, those of us who support Garrison are really trying to impede the investigation. Now Hemming, with his inability to write a sentence clearly enough for most of us to even bother reading.

Oh, and the always lovable Mr Purvis....who by virtue of living in, or near to, NO is a self -styled "Garrison expert".

I think all of this may come to a head before too long, and we will see what is really going on.

Stay tuned.

So if someone does not agree with Dawn's view of Garrison, he or she must be a conspirator? Holy cow! Seek help.

[Gerry Hemming]

Garrison did look into Marcello/Cosa Nostra connection to the assassination, Mellen shows this and I have cited a few examples in Lynne Foster's thread.

Mr. Purvis won't help you re: Garrison and Marcello. He apparently believes that Garrison was covering for some New Orleans law firm (he calls it the "Law Firm") of which one of Oswald's uncles was a member (just about the only connection between Oswald and the "Law Firm" that he has). He also believes that Oswald was the lone assassin.

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Owen old bean, I do think that you have misread Capt. Tom -- and it's most likely due to his "Cajun-Style"

(Zoid) method of tossing out qustions intermingled with suggestions and solid answers.

Tom hasn't claimed that LHO was a LN [iMHO]; he is stating -- just as Oliver Stone attempted to get across in "JFK", to wit: One expert shooter in the TSBD, different window -- different trajectories. And BTW, I played that shooter in the movie !! Most often he has thrown out specific challenges as to ALL current theories, hoping to gain input from the Forum members. I do believe this is why John, Andy, et al. created this "JFK Debate" section -- and certainly NOT for Trolls and DI A/Ps to rant against newbies and old-bies ??!!

Chairs,

GPH

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[Lynne Foster]

One thing that I've always wondered about the Garrison investigation is that it took place right there in the backyard or bailiwick of Carlos Marcello, but you would never know from the investigation that Marcello himself was a prime suspect in the JFK assassination. One may legitimately ask exactly what was going on here. How could a New Orleans DA set out investigating this case with any confidence that it would not lead straight to Marcello (among the other usual suspects)? Would the DA have to ignore such a lead? Would Marcello even let him get that far? Or was Garrison actually doing this for Marcello, to direct blame or suspicion from Marcello to the CIA? (Did the CIA in turn, through Blakey's HSCA, direct blame or suspicion back at Marcello and the Cosa Nostra?) And why would Marcello feel a need to do this? What heat was he, or anyone else, feeling about the JFK case at that time, that he, through Garrison, would pick a fight with the CIA? One question leads to another.

Perhaps I'm giving Marcello too much credit. Perhaps he was really just a "tomato salesman" after all. But it's odd that RFK would bother deporting tomato salesmen to Central American jungles. The Garrison investigation, while it left us knowing more than we knew before about the JFK murder, has the rather odd look of the mouse (Garrison) playing while the cat (Marcello) is not away. This seems surreal unless there was something going on beneath the surface. Why did the Jolly Green Giant have a green light from Carlos?

Perhaps Tom Purvis, so familiar with the NO "system," may provide some insight here, or perhaps Mellen's book deals with the Marcello aspect (or lack thereof) in the Garrison investigation.

This is your answer Ron:

"Or was Garrison actually doing this for Marcello, to direct blame or suspicion from Marcello to the CIA?""

You hit the nail on David Ferrie's coffin -Purvis has it right and the only right answer to your reasonable speculation is, to use your own words in the affirmative, Garrison was "actually doing this for Marcello, to direct blame or suspicion from Marcello to the CIA."

Please understand that i do not pretend to be an expert, but when Harold Weisberg says Garrison could not find a pubic hair in a whorehouse, he knew what he was talking about.

Now, Purvis is suggesting that Garrison could not find the "pubic hair/Marcello organization" because he didn't want to, and those who suggest otherwise need to develop some respect for brilliant people like Harold Weisberg and Jay Epstein, because they are far more knowledgeable than any person who is seeking to resuscitate the reputation of an exhaustively deceptive person.

Funny thing is that Garrison's apologists are adopting his tactics, they make things up like all their delusions of this so called, brilliant book by this author who evidently does not know what she is talking about, because Jim Garrison is anything but Oliver Stone's, Jim Garrison.

Of course, if youonly read "on the trail of the assassins" and assume that garrison is a genuine person, you will reach a different conclusion, but if you dig as deepas you have in your above post, you will get closer to the truth.

Thanks for this post, I was planning to ignore this stupid thread until I read about your insight.

[Gerry Hemming]

Purvis: I would like to see your evidence that Shaw ever worked for the O.S.S. He did work in military intelligence during WWII, but the evidence of his O.S.S. connection appears to be non-existant. I would be fascinated to see whatever you may have.

The relevance of the Claverie's or Perez to the assassination is not readily apparent to me, even less so than the "Law Firm."

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"Wait for it you bloody blokes !!" [NOT from "Rude-Yard" Kipling]

Shaw worked with the very same OSS (separate cover) unit that my erstwhile business partner Peyton Marshall Magruder operated with. Due to Peyton's having been the designer of the Glenn Martin B-26 "Marauder" bomber, "Wild Bill" didn't want Magruder working in an exposed environment -- which might subject him to a "snatch-job" by Skorzeny's "Mussolini rescueing" Fallschirmjaegers [Luftwaffe Parachutists].

The very same kind of folks who infiltrated the 101st Airborne lines at Bastogne ["Battle of The Bulge" - 1944] dressed in U.S. Army uniforms, while speaking American English !! Verstehen sie auch, mein freund ?

Shaw's similar status [and attendant risks] remain undisclosed and secured at both Langley, A.F.I.O., and the OSS history files. Magruder latered joined WerBell in the "advertising business" after WWII. In Vietnam he ran the Cam Ranh Bay construction projects for RMK/BRJ -- and maintained a duplicate of Westmoreland 's "Ops & Maps Room" at his Saigon condo.

Geheimenslechte, nicht war ?!

GPH

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[John Dolva]

John;

The "balls" of the matter are difficult for most to swallow!

That being, that there was only a single/lone assassin, and to an extremely high degree of certainty, that assassin was LHO.

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It is irrelevant as to whether one thinks "outside the box" to resolve the issues of this matter, however, in event that they do not take off their "blinders" and recognize that there are many and varied motives for all the items which they wish to combine into one "GIANT" conspiracy theory, then it all probability, they will still be lost 42 years from now as well.

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(to be called ingnorant is not necessarily an insult. Tom demonstrates a degree of preciscion that makes it possible to take it just as a statement of fact. As Gerry suggests, different languages express things differently. Ignorance in strict definition is just lack of knowledge. Hanging on to conclusions based on ignorance in the face of knowledge is something else entirely (stupidity? : not perhaps all that simple, I think there are degrees of attachments and ego that need to be factored in, but for someone earnestly looking for truth, time deals with)

Tom, ok, let's assume this is correct: (I'm not 'arguing' for arguments sake, just trying to understand exactly what you're getting at)

Is there a conspiracy here? WHAT was Garrison leading anyone away from?

And my initial question was really : (if there was/is a conspiracy of some kind), why do those pointing in the right direction get away with doing so today, when for Garrison it was a matter of life and death. What has changed?

[Lynne Foster]

John;

The "balls" of the matter are difficult for most to swallow!

That being, that there was only a single/lone assassin, and to an extremely high degree of certainty, that assassin was LHO.

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It is irrelevant as to whether one thinks "outside the box" to resolve the issues of this matter, however, in event that they do not take off their "blinders" and recognize that there are many and varied motives for all the items which they wish to combine into one "GIANT" conspiracy theory, then it all probability, they will still be lost 42 years from now as well.

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(to be called ingnorant is not necessarily an insult. Tom demonstrates a degree of preciscion that makes it possible to take it just as a statement of fact. As Gerry suggests, different languages express things differently. Ignorance in strict definition is just lack of knowledge. Hanging on to conclusions based on ignorance in the face of knowledge is something else entirely (stupidity? : not perhaps all that simple, I think there are degrees of attachments and ego that need to be factored in, but for someone earnestly looking for truth, time deals with)

Tom, ok, let's assume this is correct: (I'm not 'arguing' for arguments sake, just trying to understand exactly what you're getting at)

Is there a conspiracy here? WHAT was Garrison leading anyone away from?

And my initial question was really : (if there was/is a conspiracy of some kind), why do those pointing in the right direction get away with doing so today, when for Garrison it was a matter of life and death. What has changed?

Nothing has changed. The truth is still mired in the bullxxxx that the arrests of Lee Harvey Oswald and Clay Shaw have produced.

And those who have taken the time to read all the books on Garrison, the first thread on this post is a good summary of Garrison, in historical context.

I will read Joan Mellen's book, if I here that she has uncovered ANYTHING that is relevant to the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

So far, all I have heard is that she has proved that Jim Garrison was not a pedophile -making him a glorified, Tom Sneddon who did not expose the fact that his secret pal Hoover, was allegedly a cross-dresser, and that should make us all sleep better -our tax dollars at work, giving the Mafia, Richard Nixon and his November 22nd plummers, Lyndon Johnson and his November 22nd, freedom to "continue" the Vietnam war, the opportunity to shape the national security of the United States, for years to come.

Is that what you were asking?

Edited November 12, 2005 by Lynne Foster

[Gerry Hemming]

While I certainly have no objection to accepting this (it seems to fit in with the Shaw timeline), I have only your word to go on here. How Shaw's files became boxed with "I.G. Farbin" and how you found this out I don't know. How this would help in making Clay Shaw look like a spook is also a mystery, since no one prior to you ever brought this "Art Recovery" stuff up. As for Clay Shaw being a mere C.I.A. informant, Mellen has shattered this myth with actual C.I.A. documents which she quotes and cites. But of course, that pales next to your high standards (typically insinuation and innuendo).

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Owen, mein gute freund und / et "mon ami":

How "he found this out" comes from being an "OPERATOR" Lad !! And since very few JFK 'expert" scribblers had never inquired of operators prio hereto -- they have "kept the faith" !! Which BTW was encouraged by the very wild horses-hit theories being pandered by wannabe "literary giants -NOT".

And NOW we are given to understand that Mellen not only has his "444-Form" [CIA application for employment] but mayhaps has his "alias I.D., timesheets at "The Farm" and all reinforced by non-redacted cryptos which might? show him to be a career intelligence officer, not just and agent "informant"?? POST'EM PLEASE !!

While she sent a freebie copy of her tome to one of my buddies, I am given to think that even after 5 years working with her doesn't deserve one for me -- even after spending a week here in Fayetteville, and causing my wife to berate me for her having made some kind of insulting remarks in-her-face !!

Even when the "Odio" incident will no doubt result in the ONLY paragraphs which signal "verity", and not just some more "black-tape files" containing backstop CYA "Legends"!! Do me a favor Owen, check her index and under "B" or "F" [or "BS"] and tell us if she even refers to "black-tape files" -- HUH? por favor.

"No one prior" -- "shattered this myth"?? -- Even Newman and Russo didn't claim those laurels !!

Do I detect AJW baiting -- seeking insider scoop, Owen ?? I await Tom's "blurting-out-the-the-family-jewels"

sources and methods Intel to ANY of the "NOT-ready-for-Prime-Time" Researchers ??

Tom: Doncha know dey have a cunts-sti-tooshional "RIGHT" to know ebery-ting ?? It is plainly stated in the 69th amendment !!

CHAIRS !!

GPH

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[Gerry Hemming]

You show your ignorance of the material. As an example, Shaw was cleared for CIA project QKENCHANT, an "operational" project. In addition to this, Mellen ties in both the International Trade Mart and PERMINDEX with the CIA. Mellen does not go into "expenses and 'allowances.'"

I find it strange that, despite all I have heard about Shaw's alleged O.S.S. connections, I have seen no one but you bring the "Art Recovery" stuff up. Unusual if this was a "common 'rumor.'"

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Does the good professor state that he was given ONLY a "P.O.A." for QK/ENCHANT-9, or for just one of the many QK/ENCHANT "Projects" -- there is a difference ya know ??!! So, and exactly what does "tieing-the-CIA" to LS/BEAM-1 [Permindex] & JM/TROUGH-4 [N.O. Int'l T.M.] mean -- that they were "evil-doers; or that they were doing exactly what the NSC/PFIAB/White House expected them to do -- you know, like follow the goddamn orders, pogues !!

"Common Rumor" amongst the "in-crowd" of the French Quarter, old bean.

GPH

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[Gerry Hemming]

Isn't it "I.G. Farben" instead of "I.G. Farbin" ?

I just did a quick Google search and it would appear that you are right. That Purvis would make this kind of error after going through the I.G. Farben box is strange to say the least (yes, this is innuendo).

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NA-NA-NA-NOO-NOO-NAY !! TOMMY DOOD A TYPO !! Probably couldn't find the "spelll check" on this website; after all -- it is an "Edu-Forum" and one MUST be banished to the Moors forever for ANY typos !!

Google "wing-nut-whacko-nit-picking silly-villians" for me, whenever you can drag yourself away from your thousands of pages of NARA/FOIA-PA hard-copy files, Huh ?! - por favor !!

GPH

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[Gerry Hemming]

You are building a straw man. I never said Shaw knew everything, as you seem to be implying. This is beside the point, in any case. The point is that being cleared for an operational project is quite a bit above and beyond being a mere contact.

And yes, I did know what "need to know" is, thank you. You can stop being condescending any time you feel like it.

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YOU have previously been "cleared for an operational project" -- whatever the hell that is ??!!

OR YOU READ somewhere that said "cleared for an Op/P" "is quite above and beyond [just] ...mere CTC ??!!

My goodness, I sure as hell wish that I had known that when I was "cleared" for MH/CHAOS "Project....." whilst actually operating under JJA's MK/CHAOS, and ardently attempting to sabotage and destroy the "Chaos-Clowns" up and down the left-coast [1967-1970]

My brother is right. I deserved a raised. Methinks I shall sue the bastards, even if I have to dig them up from their resting places !!

GPH

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