James [Jim] Hicks

[Robert Prudhomme]

On 31/12/2016 at 2:15 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bob,

Don't get all "paranoid again" quite yet.  LOL

As I said about a year ago, I believe that all of the FBI statements of the (100 or so) TSBD employees that were taken in early 1964 are legitimate, typed-up copies of the signed statements.

If I were you, I wouldn't lend too much credence to Thierry Speth's individual identifications of the gals in the "Calvary, Reed, Hicks, Westbrook" group, although the group itself (sans Calvary?) was, IMHO, probably where Speth said it was.

--  Tommy

I don't think I'm being paranoid at all, Thomas. (well, not too paranoid, anyways LOL)

After all, the very reason this forum exists is because a lot of us believe the official story is a prevaricated fabrication, and I don't believe for one second the FBI was above tampering with evidence.

There were five women in that group; June Dishong, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed.

So far, we know that all of them except for Dishong made statements to the FBI on March 19-20, 1964. I have been unable to find any statement or affidavit for Dishong, nor have I found any other affidavits from the other four women.

Despite their close proximity to the assassination, none of these women were called to testify before the WC.

Stan Dane at the ROKC found a high school photo of Karen Westbrook, She was eighteen years of age at the time of the assassination, and photos of her on Elm St. look very similar to her high school photo although no conclusive match can be made.

Gloria Calvery, captured on film on Elm St., looks nothing like her high school senior photo, although this is still a topic for debate in some circles. Calvery was twenty-one at the time of the assassination and the woman ID'ed as Calvery not only looks older, she also appears to be Hispanic or Black, while there is no doubt Calvery was white.

No one has turned up anything on Reed or Dishong yet, as far as I know.

The Karen (sic) Hicks whose photo you found in the HSCA report is a thin faced dark haired woman while the Karan Hicks by the Stemmons sign was blonde haired and somewhat full faced, making a match difficult but not impossible. The only other lead turned up on Hicks was by Stan Dane at the ROKC, who searched through Dallas yearbooks for a "Karan" the same age as Hicks. He found a Karan Snodgrass of the right age in the same yearbook as Karen Westbrook. Unfortunately, he did not post a photo at that time. Perhaps someone in contact with that site could ask Stan about this. Bart?

Anyways, despite the efforts of many of us to place Gloria Calvery somewhere else on Elm St., we have the sworn statements to the FBI of her and three other women placing them exactly where they claimed to be, that being the first group of women east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

As I have asked before, if that is not Gloria Calvery seen with Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, where was the real Gloria Calvery, and why did Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, as well as Gloria Calvery, swear statements to the FBI that this woman who was NOT Gloria Calvery was Gloria Calvery?

If that WAS actually Gloria Calvery seen with Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, the evidence given by Lovelady and Shelley has some serious holes in it. There is film evidence showing the dark complected woman ID'ed as Calvery remained on the grassy area just east of the Stemmons Freeway for several minutes; LONG after Baker supposedly entered the TSBD. As Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies, and Shelley's statement, are pivotal on making contact with Calvery before they saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD, "Calvery's" remaining where she observed the assassination for several minutes after the last shot calls into question the veracity of the evidence given by Shelley and Lovelady.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

I don't think I'm being paranoid at all, Thomas. (well, not too paranoid, anyways LOL)

After all, the very reason this forum exists is because a lot of us believe the official story is a prevaricated fabrication, and I don't believe for one second the FBI was above tampering with evidence.

There were five women in that group; June Dishong, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed.

So far, we know that all of them except for Dishong made statements to the FBI on March 19-20, 1964. I have been unable to find any statement or affidavit for Dishong, nor have I found any other affidavits from the other four women.

Despite their close proximity to the assassination, none of these women were called to testify before the WC.

Stan Dane at the ROKC found a high school photo of Karen Westbrook, She was eighteen years of age at the time of the assassination, and photos of her on Elm St. look very similar to her high school photo although no conclusive match can be made.

Gloria Calvery, captured on film on Elm St., looks nothing like her high school senior photo, although this is still a topic for debate in some circles. Calvery was twenty-one at the time of the assassination and the woman ID'ed as Calvery not only looks older, she also appears to be Hispanic or Black, while there is no doubt Calvery was white.

No one has turned up anything on Reed or Dishong yet, as far as I know.

The Karen (sic) Hicks whose photo you found in the HSCA report is a thin faced dark haired woman while the Karan Hicks by the Stemmons sign was blonde haired and somewhat full faced, making a match difficult but not impossible. The only other lead turned up on Hicks was by Stan Dane at the ROKC, who searched through Dallas yearbooks for a "Karan" the same age as Hicks. He found a Karan Snodgrass of the right age in the same yearbook as Karen Westbrook. Unfortunately, he did not post a photo at that time. Perhaps someone in contact with that site could ask Stan about this. Bart?

Anyways, despite the efforts of many of us to place Gloria Calvery somewhere else on Elm St., we have the sworn statements to the FBI of her and three other women placing them exactly where they claimed to be, that being the first group of women east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

As I have asked before, if that is not Gloria Calvery seen with Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, where was the real Gloria Calvery, and why did Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, as well as Gloria Calvery, swear statements to the FBI that this woman who was NOT Gloria Calvery was Gloria Calvery?

If that WAS actually Gloria Calvery seen with Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, the evidence given by Lovelady and Shelley has some serious holes in it. There is film evidence showing the dark complected woman ID'ed as Calvery remained on the grassy area just east of the Stemmons Freeway for several minutes; LONG after Baker supposedly entered the TSBD. As Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies, and Shelley's statement, are pivotal on making contact with Calvery before they saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD, "Calvery's" remaining where she observed the assassination for several minutes after the last shot calls into question the veracity of the evidence given by Shelley and Lovelady.

 

Bob,

I didn't even read your whole post because it rather aggravates me when I go to the trouble to explain to you, in so many words -- do I have to spell everything out? --  that I think Thierry "Wacko" Speth probably misidentified Hicks as Reed, and Reed as Hicks, (and, yes, "Miss X" for Gloria Calvary) and you refuse to address that possibility, refuse to compare HSCA photo 39 with the gal wearing the light blue headscarf next to "Dark-Complected Woman" on Elm Street, and continue on your merry way, blindly knocking your head against the wall whilst spinning your elaborate theory-in-progress, based on the unwarranted assumption that "Wacko" Thierry Speth was correct on everything except, of course, ... GJC.

Poor Bob Prudhomme, oh-so vigorously trying to pound proverbial squares into round holes.  IMHO.

It seems to me that you don't want to accept the possibility that Dishong and Westbrook and Hicks and Reed and a "Miss X" (aka "Dark Complected Woman") really were standing pretty close together on Elm Street, like they said in their FBI statements and as captured in Zapruder and Bronson, and that you're convinced that none of those those five FBI statements are to be believed. 

But I will agree with you one one thing here, Robert  --  Gloria Jean Calvary stinks to high heaven, and it ain't just because she's dead, and at a relatively young age IIRC.

Your buddy,

--  Tommy

 

PS  It appears to me that three or four of those statements are to be believed, except for one small detail -- Calvary wasn't with them.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is possible that Speth confused Reed for Hicks and vice versa. This only confirms our problem with Calvery, as Westbrook looks a lot like her high school photo, and the woman ID'ed as Reed could pass for the Hicks presented by the HSCA.

" It seems to me that you don't want to accept the possibility that Dishong and Westbrook and Hicks and Reed and a "Miss X" (aka "Dark Complected Woman") really were standing pretty close together on Elm Street, like they said in their FBI statements and as captured in Zapruder and Bronson, and that you're convinced that none of those those five FBI statements are to be believed."

On the contrary, Thomas, I do accept that Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks, Reed and "Dark Complected Woman" were standing pretty close together on Elm St., and that they were the first group of women in a group east of the Stemmons sign.

What I am having trouble with is how Westbrook, Hicks and Reed could give statements to the FBI stating Gloria Calvery was in their group if Dark Complected Woman was not Gloria Calvery.

Capiche?

PS

Dishong did not give a statement to the FBI, or anyone else.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

1 minute ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

It is possible that Speth confused Reed for Hicks and vice versa. This only confirms our problem with Calvery, as Westbrook looks a lot like her high school photo, and the woman ID'ed as Reed could pass for the Hicks presented by the HSCA.

" It seems to me that you don't want to accept the possibility that Dishong and Westbrook and Hicks and Reed and a "Miss X" (aka "Dark Complected Woman") really were standing pretty close together on Elm Street, like they said in their FBI statements and as captured in Zapruder and Bronson, and that you're convinced that none of those those five FBI statements are to be believed."

On the contrary, Thomas, I do accept that Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks, Reed and "Dark Complected Woman" were standing pretty close together on Elm St., and that they were the first group of women in a group east of the Stemmons sign.

What I am having trouble with is how Westbrook, Hicks and Reed could give statements to the FBI stating Gloria Calvery was in their group if Dark Complected Woman was not Gloria Calvery.

Capiche?

Yes.

Please read my just-now edited previous post (the "P.S." at the bottom).

[Robert Prudhomme]

" PS  It appears to me that three or four of those statements are to be believed, except for one small detail -- Calvary wasn't with them. "

So, you're saying they were great statements, save for one teensy weensy little error, that being Gloria Calvery wasn't with them? Does that make everything okay in your mind?

What, did they think Calvery was in disguise as a black woman or something?

[Thomas Graves]

29 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

" PS  It appears to me that three or four of those statements are to be believed, except for one small detail -- Calvary wasn't with them. "

So, you're saying they were great statements, save for one teensy weensy little error, that being Gloria Calvery wasn't with them? Does that make everything okay in your mind?

What, did they think Calvery was in disguise as a black woman or something?

Just a thought: Maybe Dishong didn't want to perjure herself.

PS  You talkin' to me?

PPS  "You're the researcher.  You figure it out."

PPPS  Seems to me you'd be just as perplexed if "Dark Complected Woman" WAS Calvary.  Am I wrong?

PPPS  Why don't you call "K. D. Hicks, wife of James Daniel Hicks, in Irving, Texas," and find out for us, Bob?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Just a thought: Maybe Dishong didn't want to perjure herself.

PS  You talkin' to me?

PPS  "You're the researcher.  You figure it out."

PPPS  Seems to me you'd be just as perplexed if Dark Complected Woman WAS Calvary.  Am I wrong?

PPPS  Why don't you call "K. D. Hicks, wife of James Daniel Hicks, in Irving, Texas," and find out for us, Bob?

"PPPS  Seems to me you'd be just as perplexed if Dark Complected Woman WAS Calvary.  Am I wrong?"

Possibly. It all depends upon how you define "perplexed". If this really was Gloria Calvery, she certainly didn't make it anywhere near the TSBD entrance prior to Baker entering the TSBD, and Shelley and Lovelady certainly didn't converse with her before they saw Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. Here is what "Calvery" was doing after the assassination ("Calvery" on left):

She certainly does not appear to be running flat out for the TSBD  steps or the little concrete island.

The ONLY thing that could make everything work, if this really was Calvery, would be if Baker did not enter the TSBD 2 seconds after running actoss the Elm St. extension. This would make all four of the women's FBI statements true, give Calvery the necessary 3-4 minutes to return to the TSBD steps, give Calvery enough time to converse with Shelley and Lovelady AND give S&L enough time to be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back to see Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. It would also explain why Buell Wesley Frazier and Joe Molina never saw Baker run past them on the TSBD steps as he entered the building; by this point they would have already gone back inside the TSBD themselves.

However, this creates other problems. If the above were true, then Baker and Truly never encountered Oswald on the second floor and Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles really did run down the stairs from the 4th floor as quickly as they claimed, without running into Oswald OR Baker and Truly.

Please feel free to criticize this post harshly, as I'm sure you will.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

2 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

"PPPS  Seems to me you'd be just as perplexed if Dark Complected Woman WAS Calvary.  Am I wrong?"

Possibly. It all depends upon how you define "perplexed". If this really was Gloria Calvery, she certainly didn't make it anywhere near the TSBD entrance prior to Baker entering the TSBD, and Shelley and Lovelady certainly didn't converse with her before they saw Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. Here is what "Calvery" was doing after the assassination:

She certainly does not appear to be running flat out for the TSBD  steps or the little concrete island.

The ONLY thing that could make everything work, if this really was Calvery, would be if Baker did not enter the TSBD 2 seconds after running actoss the Elm St. extension. This would make all four of the women's FBI statements true, give Calvery the necessary 3-4 minutes to return to the TSBD steps, give Calvery enough time to converse with Shelley and Lovelady AND give S&L enough time to be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back to see Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. It would also explain why Buell Wesley Frazier and Joe Molina never saw Baker run past them on the TSBD steps as he entered the building; by this point they would have already gone back inside the TSBD themselves.

However, this creates other problems. If the above were true, then Baker and Truly never encountered Oswald on the second floor and Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles really did run down the stairs from the 4th floor as quickly as they claimed, without running into Oswald OR Baker and Truly.

Please feel free to criticize this post harshly, as I'm sure you will.

Bob,

You consider those "problems"?

-- Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

For some people, yes.

[Thomas Graves]

6 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

For some people, yes.

 

Do you always take on other peoples' problems as your own?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I don't believe I understand your question.

[Robert Prudhomme]

As usual

[Thomas Graves]

13 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

I don't believe I understand your question.

Let me rephrase my original question. (sarcasm}

DO YOU CONSIDER THOSE "PROBLEMS"?

You know, the possibility that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter never occurred, that Vicki and Sarah didn't encounter Lovelady and Shelley on the 1st floor, etc? (Or did they?  I don't remember.  It's all very confusing, isn't it.)  Or, you know, Truly and Baker, and Oswald and all that stuff?

LOL

--  Tommy

 

Edited January 1, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

23 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Let me rephrase my original question. (sarcasm}

DO YOU CONSIDER THOSE "PROBLEMS"?

You know, the possibility that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter never occurred, that Vicki and Sarah didn't encounter Lovelady and Shelley on the 1st floor, etc? (Or did they?  I don't remember.  It's all very confusing, isn't it.)  Or, you know, Truly and Baker, and Oswald and all that stuff?

LOL

--  Tommy

 

Nope, no problem here! I know some LN's that might choke on this a little, though.

[Gary Murr]

Gentlemen:

 

FWIW June Dishong's original handwritten letter regarding her Dealey Plaza experience, dated "Fri-11-22-63", is part  of the Sixth Floor Museum's collection. Hopefully I have provided links for access below.

Gary

Links: http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/0?t:state:flow=f1756512-af1f-465a-8e81-687300d51f54

          http://emuseum.jfk.org/video/2004.041.0001.pdf