ID this man

[George Bollschweiler]

I read that to say that Rice was not there but his mobile unit was.

/quote]

Think your are right John, Rice was not there.

was checking all the other press conference pictures available but so far I could not find another picture of this unidentified man. Apart from his hectic movements after the shooting do you have some more on that or better what attracted your attension concerning this man?

George

ps: thanks for the tip > windows movie maker

[John Dolva]

George, I was browsing the Marsh site for images of interest and came across the film. I was surprised to find it is what it is, so I extracted all the frames and started looking at them.

I noticed that there were about ten or so frames towards the end , where Ruby is being wrestled to the ground, there appears off to the side a closed fist with top of hand upwards.It extends forward, another hend reaches towards it and the closed fist opens and withdraws and the other hand pulls back out of sight. hmmm interesting. Ok, who/what was that?

By carefully stepping back frame by frame I am pretty certain that that fist belonged to that man in question.

OK, no big deal... wait a mo', in a section just before this just after Oswald is shot and Ruby starts being wrestled down, he is calmy placing what looks like a sheet of paper inside his jacket. During this sequence while most other people are reacting with rapid movements and strong facial expressions, he is almost immobile except for placing this paper in his pocket.

OK stepping back to the beginning of the film. There he is , waiting in the corner.

So the sequence is something like this, with a couple of blurry wild swings of the camera and people stepping in front.

1. He waits. Oswald is led out. He turns following this movement of Oswald, stepping forward slightly. As Oswald nears where he is shot, and Ruby starts to move, X speeds up slightly and moves across the scene so he is now more off to the right in the frames. He maintains an 'inscrutable' expression as many others are beginning to react, He has a clear view to Ruby, the short guy next to him also has a clear view, he reacts quickly and moves forward rapidly while X hangs back.

camera focuses elsewhere

2. The shooting is over, Ruby is being subdued. Everyones focus is on the melee'.

He places the paper in his jacket pocket.

camera focuses elsewhere

3. The 'pass the parcel' happens.

____________________________

By this time I was beginning to think that this is quite peculiar. Why would someone in these circumstances be so still, and do such seemingly peculiar things?

Because he didn't just place something in his pocket, but got something OUT of his pocket, and passed it to someone who then goes towards Ruby? Calm because it was no surprise. Did it there and then because it was important to do and because in the confusion and 'intentional blindness' conditions he knew it could be done.

____________________________

OK, so what if anything COULD it be? Something small and relevant.

So off to the records. Ruby's property.

First there are hand written notes, very deatailed.

Then these notes are typed up. Then a jail property list: and THERE is an anomaly: '1 sml. bottle. wth. brwn. liquid'. It, of all the other items is not ticked with a check mark, and it does not appear in the final release of property list. It appears only for one day in the jail. It's not there, then it is there, and then it is not. Meanwhile singel coins, razor blades, and underpants are meticulously recorded.

___________________________

OK, still really nothing but circumstantial.

But when one thinks of Rubys sleepless nights, his talk of diet pills (think ephedrines, or even an extacy type drug (in 1912 when it was first created by german scientists it was tested as a diet drug)) His wild mood swings, his late night chats with Olsen and Kay, and down the road in Tulane uni, there is MKULTRA... a makabre thought of mind control in action, of perhaps a hope of suicide induction. However it obviously didn't work completely and he almost made it to safe territory, but not quite.

So, there it is. Just a suspicion that hangs together in a makabre sort of way.

It should be easy to tear it to shreds as I have been only looking at it for a couple of days and I can think of other ways of looking at the events and they may be entirely unrelated. However stranger things have been given 'airtime'.

_____________

I'd like to know who that man is. And what happended to the bottle and what was in it.

_______________

In this sequential collage, the man is tinted blue. The last series is of the hand.

[George Bollschweiler]

George, I was browsing the Marsh site for images of interest and came across the film. I was surprised to find it is what it is, so I extracted all the frames and started looking at them.

I noticed that there were about ten or so frames towards the end , where Ruby is being wrestled to the ground, there appears off to the side a closed fist with top of hand upwards.It extends forward, another hend reaches towards it and the closed fist opens and withdraws and the other hand pulls back out of sight. hmmm interesting. Ok, who/what was that?

By carefully stepping back frame by frame I am pretty certain that that fist belonged to that man in question.

OK, no big deal... wait a mo', in a section just before this just after Oswald is shot and Ruby starts being wrestled down, he is calmy placing what looks like a sheet of paper inside his jacket. During this sequence while most other people are reacting with rapid movements and strong facial expressions, he is almost immobile except for placing this paper in his pocket.

OK stepping back to the beginning of the film. There he is , waiting in the corner.

So the sequence is something like this, with a couple of blurry wild swings of the camera and people stepping in front.

1. He waits. Oswald is led out. He turns following this movement of Oswald, stepping forward slightly. As Oswald nears where he is shot, and Ruby starts to move, X speeds up slightly and moves across the scene so he is now more off to the right in the frames. He maintains an 'inscrutable' expression as many others are beginning to react, He has a clear view to Ruby, the short guy next to him also has a clear view, he reacts quickly and moves forward rapidly while X hangs back.

camera focuses elsewhere

2. The shooting is over, Ruby is being subdued. Everyones focus is on the melee'.

He places the paper in his jacket pocket.

camera focuses elsewhere

3. The 'pass the parcel' happens.

____________________________

By this time I was beginning to think that this is quite peculiar. Why would someone in these circumstances be so still, and do such seemingly peculiar things?

Because he didn't just place something in his pocket, but got something OUT of his pocket, and passed it to someone who then goes towards Ruby? Calm because it was no surprise. Did it there and then because it was important to do and because in the confusion and 'intentional blindness' conditions he knew it could be done.

____________________________

OK, so what if anything COULD it be? Something small and relevant.

So off to the records. Ruby's property.

First there are hand written notes, very deatailed.

Then these notes are typed up. Then a jail property list: and THERE is an anomaly: '1 sml. bottle. wth. brwn. liquid'. It, of all the other items is not ticked with a check mark, and it does not appear in the final release of property list. It appears only for one day in the jail. It's not there, then it is there, and then it is not. Meanwhile singel coins, razor blades, and underpants are meticulously recorded.

___________________________

OK, still really nothing but circumstantial.

But when one thinks of Rubys sleepless nights, his talk of diet pills (think ephedrines, or even an extacy type drug (in 1912 when it was first created by german scientists it was tested as a diet drug)) His wild mood swings, his late night chats with Olsen and Kay, and down the road in Tulane uni, there is MKULTRA... a makabre thought of mind control in action, of perhaps a hope of suicide induction. However it obviously didn't work completely and he almost made it to safe territory, but not quite.

So, there it is. Just a suspicion that hangs together in a makabre sort of way.

It should be easy to tear it to shreds as I have been only looking at it for a couple of days and I can think of other ways of looking at the events and they may be entirely unrelated. However stranger things have been given 'airtime'.

_____________

I'd like to know who that man is. And what happended to the bottle and what was in it.

_______________

In this sequential collage, the man is tinted blue. The last series is of the hand.

John, the more I look at the clip the more the behaviour of that guy looks suspicious! Do you know if there exists a list of the persons who were in the basement of the DPD that sunday? Otherwise we could try to exclude those who’s ID is known and maybe with an effort of all other members and their (bunked?) knowledge we might be able to produce such a list. I think this could be a kind of a forum “pilot” for a weekly riddle instead of having a friday humour that didn’t survive very long, maybe we are all already become grumpy old men and women. (love that BBC program)

So this week’s riddle could be called <Who is Who in the DPD basement>

I don’t know what others think and maybe I’m too optimistic at the moment but at least I think it’s worth a thought.

George

Edited November 25, 2005 by George Bollschweiler

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Right lets start with the easy one's, the three detectives escorting Oswald are, Det Leavelle, on his right, Det LC Graves left, and Det LD Montgomery, at rear. Montgomery later said about the transfer. "This bunch here (Oswalds rear) just moved in on us" FWIW

[Tim Gratz]

Guy Fawkes was the last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions?

Edited November 25, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Guy Fawkes was the last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions?

I'm with William Morris on this, he suggested, in the book "News from nowhere" that following the revolution Parliament should be turned into a storage area for dung. Very little change in useage.

[John Dolva]

<Who is Who in the DPD basement>

Thanks for taking the time George. Of course it may be nothing, but...

I hope someone else will also look carefully and see what they think. X's apparent calm deliberateness of behaviour while others are scrambling does indeed seem strange.

I have found partial lists in the dallas city DPD records. Of the people I've looked at so far I eliminate any uniformed police and some who it seems it could be but others describe as, for example, short and with glasses. Lieutenant Swaine. Gooley.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Hosty or Bookhout. Quite some time ago now, early in the year I read an account of someopne invited to witness the transfer.However this person (Bookhout or Hosty, or it MAY have been Sorrels) declined and trying to cross reference his testimony on this seemed to reveal some disagreement about this point. At the time I was just beginning on all this and didn't think of keeping any sort of records. Anyway the point is one can also look at who wasn't there.

One way or another this could be useful as a future reference to simplify this area of research for others.

On this 'collage' one gets a sense of where things were.

This man in the insert has his approximate movements to: 'pass the parcel' in blue.Oswald red, and Ruby green. As can be seen X's movemetnts as interpreted are actually a bit narroer. And his forward movement to do his hand thing after Oswald is shot is accompanied with a forward lean. I think I can see who it might be he passes this thing to but things are very chaotic at that point.

[Robin Unger]

Some photo's from James Richard's DPD photo archive.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/DALLAS.htm

[Steve Thomas]

George,

John, the more I look at the clip the more the behaviour of that guy looks suspicious! Do you know if there exists a list of the persons who were in the basement of the DPD that sunday?

In Box 14, Folder# 2, Item# 3 of the DPD Archives, I think you will find the kind of list you are looking for.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

At one time, there existed a map placing everyone in the basement, but as Paul McCaghren stated in "Partners in Blue" by Carleton Stowers,

"One of my responsibilities," recalls McCaghren..."was to place everyone in the basement of City Hall at the time Ruby shot Oswald."..."I made this highly detailed map of the basement and marked the spot where everyone was standing when the shooting occurred. Then one morning I came into the office and the map was gone. The Warren Commission people had taken it without any explanation."

Steve Thomas

[John Dolva]

Steve, thank you for that, most helpful. The link seems to lead to a partial list ( one of four documents) :

The following may be a complete a list of the people in the basement:

D.R. Archer

C.O. Arnett

Asst.Ch. Charles Batchelor

B.L. Beatty

E.R. Beck

Jack Beers

D.G. Brantley

A.R. Brock

J.D. Brockaway

C.W. Brown

D.L. Burgess

Lt. George Butler

V.C. Campbell

A.W. Capps

W.E. Chambera

B.S. Ciardy

B.H. Combest

R.A. Cox

A.B. Craig

K. Croy

W.J. Cutchahaw

N.J. Daniels

J.R. Davidson

Harold Dawson

Sgt. P.T. Dean

C.N. Dhority

J.B. English

Warren Ferguson

Bob Fenley

Capt. J.W. Fritz

C. Goolsby

L.C. Graves

C.A. Greeson

R. Hankal

O.W. Harrison

W.J. Harrison

J.R. Hopkins

R.S. Huffaker

J.D. Hutchinson

Robert Jackson

L.E. Jez

F.B. Johnson

Capt. O.A. Jones

Seth Kantor

J. Kasten

Capt. G.D. King

H.M. Kriss

J.R. Leavell

C.G. Lewis

R.L. Lowery

Dep. Ch. G.L. Lumpkin

Capt F.W. Martin

B.J. Maxey

J.C. McCain

B.C. McCoy

H.M. McGee

T.D. McMillon

B. Merrell

L.D. Miller

L.D. Montgomery

R.C. Nelson

W.J. Newman

J.F. Newton

Ike Pappas

D.L. Pate

B.G. Patterson

Francois Pelou

Tom Pettit

George Phenix

Lt. R.S. Pierce

Sgt. J.A. Putnam

J.K. Ramsey

H.B. Reynolds

Warren Richey

Jack Ruby

W.B. Slack

J.D. Slocum

Lt. V.S. Smart

Mike Smith

Johnny Smith

I.R. Stephens

Dep. Ch. M.W. Stevenson

Donald Suits

Lt R.E. Swain

Capt. C.E. Talbert

John Tankersly

L.C. Taylor

Robert Thornton

David Timmons

Unknown Japanese Reporter

Unknown Reporter

Jimmy Turner

I.F. VanCleave

R.E. Vaughn

Homer Venso

I.N. Walker

R.A. Watkins

J.C. Watson

Lt W. Wiggins

G.E. Worley

In addition to these there appears to have been 10 unknown media personnell, and Oswald of course.

If anyone knows who any of these are please note it here.

Does anyone know or can find out if I. N. Walker is related to General Walker.

Edited November 26, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

A definite from Gary. NO relation between I.N. Walker and Gen Walker.

______________________

Thank you. The following are 9 of the 10 'unidentified' media personnell :

John Alexander

Paul Cisco

Hank Machiarelli

Oliver Oakes

Tom Petit

Bert Reinhart

Mike Smith

Milt Sosin

Jim Standard

So, one missing...

As one may see on this diagram the area was larger than expected from film. Also there was a first aid station that Oswald was NOT taken to.

Edited November 26, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

0

Edited November 26, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

0

Edited November 26, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

List of those on record as present at time of Oswald being murdered.

L. H. Oswald, Jack Ruby,

DPD

Dep. Ch. G. L. Lumpkin, Asst. Ch. Charles Batchelor, Dep. Ch. M. W. Stevenson,

Captains:

J. W. Fritz, (Sup) O. A. Jones, (Sup.) G. D. King, F. W. Martin, C. E. Talbert,

Lieutenants;

(Sup) George Butler, R.S. Pierce, W. Wiggins, V. S. Smart, R. E. Swain,

Seargents:

J.A. Putnam, P. T. Dean, B. J. Maxey,

Detectives:

D. R. Archer, C. W. Brown, B. L. Beatty, E. R. Beck, D. G. Brantley,, D. L. Burgess, A. W. Capps, W. E. Chambera, B. S. Clardy, B. H. Combest, W. J. Cutchshaw, Harold Dawson, L. C. Graves, C. A. Greeson, O. W. Harrison, J. D. Hutchinson R. L. Lowery, T. D. McMillon, L D. Miller, L. D. Montgomery, J. K. Ramsey, H.(N) B. R(N)eynolds, I. R. Stephens, I. F. VanCleave, R. C. Wagner, J. C. Watson,

Officers:

R. E. Vaughn, N. J. Daniels,

Patrolmen:

W. J. Harrison, W. B. Slack, L. E. Jez, (jail elevator) C. G. Lewis, R. C. Nelson, D. L. Pate, B. G. Patterson, L. C. Taylor, R. A. Watkins,

Reserve:

Cap. C. O. Arnett, Officer Sgt. K. Croy, Officer W. J. Newman, A. R. Brock, J. D. Brockaway, R. A. Cox, A. B. Craig, J. R. Hopkins, J. Kasten, H. M. Kriss, J. C. McCain, G. E. Worley

still to be sorted

C. Goolsby, C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavell, Sup. V. C. Campbell,,

MEDIA

John Alexander, Hank Machiarelli, (*Tom Petit) Tom Pettit, George Phenix, Mike Smith (*Mike Smith), Milt Sosin, Jim Standard, Unknown Japanese Reporter, (*?) Unknown Reporter, Paul Cisco, Oliver Oakes, Bert Reinhart, Robert S. Huffaker, Jack Beers, J. R. Davidson, J. B. English, Warren Ferguson, Bob Fenley, R. Hankal, Robert Jackson, F. B. Johns(t)on, Seth Kantor, Ike Pappas, Francois Pelou, Warren Richey, Johnny Smith, John Tankersly, Robert Thornton, David Timmons, Jimmy Turner, Homer Venso, I. N. Walker,

CIVILIANS:

J. F. Newton, J. D. Slocum,

____________________________

Cross referencing these two lists makes for two duplicates and therefore perhaps 3 unaccounted for.

possibles : sgt haxey, det benty (?? bentley, brantley??), res lt mccoy, payne, hughes,

As the person of interest is wearing a suit, it should be easy to eliminate some.

Is a photo of Bookhout in existence. He, Kelly and Sorrles were 'suits' on duty that day. (hosty?)

[John Dolva]

An attempt at getting into Rubys' mind:: (Oswald -red, Ruby -green, Unknown man - blue)

It is possible in the light of this study to begin to see Ruby in a particular light.

Bearing in mind where he was, Dallas, his Judaism, his wish to be accepted, his generous nature combined with his violent moods.

A troubled man. His mind distorted by the use of drugs.

I see a potential patsy.

It seems that a number of people were 'pissing'in his ear, seeding and bolstering views that made him see himself perhaps as the avenger of all the holocausts, pogroms, evils of the world, coming together as an opportunity to 'right a wrong' to build a bridge, to hit back etc.

The drugs he was taking was making this make sense. The killing of Oswald destroys the source of the pain.

It is in this space that a consideration of Ruby not as a Mobster, not as a witting participant in a conspiracy, not as a cold blooded murderer, but perhaps as a disturbed man on the edge of sanity. Thus, to cooler calculating individuals, patsy number two.

Just a thought, I wonder what members who have a deeper knowledge of Ruby thinks of such a view.

_______

To mind then comes the question: who manipulated Ruby? Was it some identifiable entity acting deliberately, or was ti the general atmosphere he lived in. In a right wing south, Jews, Ngroes and Catholics were targets of discrimination. Not across the board but by particular influential groupings.

These groupings were the first that people instinctively blamed for the assassination of Kennedy. Perhaps Ruby as a Jew shooting Oswald introduced an element to an already tense situation so that there was a strong incentive to recoil from such considerations.

All in all a pretty confusing situation. It would have been very interesting to have been in Dallas at the time to observe and record the thought of people. One thing that strikes me as curious is the number of people who sent congratulating telegrams and defense funds to Ruby. This plus the stark clarity induced by confinement, seems to have made Ruby doubt his sanity. He seems to have steered well clear of an insanity plea. Which is insane in itself.

_______the ID of the man coloured Blue is still sought, (the other issue is: what happened to the small bottle with a brown liquid(please see above posts))

EDIT :: my observation of Ruby wearing a skull cap prior to darting forward to shoot is not anywahere as certain as I first thought. As this part of the film that shows Ruby in the corner of the frame close to the camera, is just a location where maximum shape distortion occurs. Thus what looks like a skullcap may simply be the top of his hat illuminated by the strong light behind the cameraman)

Edited November 26, 2005 by John Dolva